Champions Cup Pool One; Ulster vs Oyonnax

ULSTER VS OYONNAX

Saturday 23rd January 2016, KO 1pm
Kingspan Ravenhill Stadium, Belfast
Referee; Marius Mitrea

TEAMS; tbc

Ulster have posted a brief guide on the sequence of results we need to make it through as one of three best runners up

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/14498.php#.Vp-IVutmw04

Wiehahn Herbst, Chris Henry and Louis Ludik are all probably out but Ulster will have Nick Williams and Darren Cave back as well as Jared Payne.

Is Ravenhill only whispered so silently now that the "h" has become silent too?

Sure, why not?

Ulster pretty much relying on teams with nothing to play for other than pride

Interesting stat about Ulster that the only Top 14 team to beat them recently is Toulon, that's not a bad record

Scarlets – Northampton
Wasps -Leinster
Bath -Toulon
Clermont – Bordeaux
Stade – Leicester
Exeter - Ospreys

So we need our bonus point win which we can absolutely do. Some of our best rugby comes from the nothing to lose tactic of 'give it a lash boys'.
Then we need 2 of the highlighted teams above to lose.

A Northampton loss is not altogether unlikely, the Scarlets can be hard to shift at home.
Leinster will be hard put to defeat Wasps so it's a no from me.
Bath beating Toulon is a possibility, Toulon have really yet to fire on all cylinders.
Clermont won't be derailed by the Beagles.
Leicester could overturn Stade on their home ground, it's altogether possible.
Exeter could very well beat the O's, it's not unlikely.

For me our best chances lie with the Scarlets and Exeter games turning up home wins. Bath could also see a home victory so it's next on the list. After that it'll take upsets to get us through.

Fingers crossed

Pete, the trouble is all those games are after the Ulster one, and the games in pool 5 are mid-Saturday just after pool 1. So all the other pools will know exactly what they have to do to progress, especially the Sunday games - massive advantage.

If Leinster and Bath don't win, Ulster won't progress.

It depends on what teams go out too, Bath have nothing really to play for but a win could boost confidence and if Wasps go through, that's one of their rivals with more games and a distraction from the league

Bordeaux drew at Clermont earlier in the season and are looking even better now

Wasps put a lot in against Toulon and looked like they picked up a few injuries on top of some they already had

I can't see either of those winning unfortunately - maybe leinster but think Wasps will want it more after last week. Toulon will rumble on.

The failure to pick up bonus points over the past 2 weekends will cost us I think.

Sarries are a quality side but to be 0-10 points against them over 2 legs isn't good enough really.

Wasps want the win, Leinster will be looking to save key players especially those not in the 6N squad.
Ditto Saints v Scarlets.

After all the posturing by Bath about fixture congestion, this game is ideal for them to rest all those players they were complaining would be overworked.
Toulon will indeed rumble on and may have 'under-performed' enough to be worth some smart money. The depth of their squad has more and more of a bearing as the season progresses.

Clermont at home will want the win, BB will now be thinking of the following weekend.

Not sure Tigers have much to play for, Stade though will struggle to get a TBP.

The only really competitive game out of those mentioned will be the Exeter v Ospreys one - hard to call.

Thats the problem in a nutshell- almost all of the teams we need to win have nothing to play for, they are either safely in the quarters or out. Compared to teams in our boat who are fighting for their future in the competition.

But you can't write off teams just because they have nothing to play for; Leinster and Munster showed how much pride means at home last weekend, and I think what will cost us a place in the quarter-finals was underestimating how much that pride at home meant to Oyonnax in the rescheduled game.

I'm convinced we turned up expecting to get 5 points in Oyonnax and were caught completely off guard. Yes the reaction after half-time was great, but the coaches and players probably had one eye on the Saracens game and that was reflected in the selection and the performance. Very naive and naive teams don't go far.

In many ways the win in Oyonnax was typical of the last five years of Ulster Rugby; showed this team has loads of talent, potential and an ability to rise to one-off occasions but it also showed a tendency towards complacency in 'lesser' fixtures and the absence of a real hard-edged winning mentality- as well as a predilection for thinking we've 'arrived' once we get one or two really big wins and now its just going to finally happen for us.

At the risk of being labelled disingenuous again, I disagree that Ulster were naive away to Oyonnax. In fact I think it was a pragmatic selection by Kiss knowing that:
1. 5 pointers in France are like hen's teeth despite the media hype dissing the opposition
2. The squad is stretched to the limit and players need rest
3. The only way to progress is to get a home 1/4 so planning to play the stronger team against Saracens was the best chance of that
4. He had to select strong teams for Connacht and Munster because the League is far more important. I know you think progress in Europe sells season tickets, but most of those wavering buyers jump in the close season. If Ulster aren't in the top 6 it would be disastrous for ticket sales.

Having said all that, I would single out Wilson whose form has dropped off a cliff and he looked completely disinterested against Oyonnax, as though he was owed the win. Humphreys and Stevenson tried but simply weren't up to the standard.

Ulster can compete with all their starters fit but lose a few and they can't, unlike their more well stocked opposition. Given the quality of players Ulster are having to field, I couldn't hand on heart say Ulster deserved to qualify ahead of Toulon, Wasps, Saints, Clermont or Stade - so if they don't I'll be disappointed but not distraught.

I appreciate that your mileage may vary in terms of judging what game is more important, and we both appreciate that Kiss had to chose an important and difficult fixture to rest players whatever happened. Losing in the game he rests players in would always, always lead to criticism and yet everyone acknowledges that playing the same team without a break wasn't an option.

However, while normally I would say that playing your strongest team at home leads to fans feeling that they are getting the best value for money- especially in inter pros- when we had to rest players this past month, I would have picked the home game before Oyonnax. The atmosphere at Ravenhill can lift mediocre players up a level whereas going away from home and performing requires a lot more mental toughness. I also think a lot of players crashed against Munster in terms of it being one game too far.

Those are my reasons for thinking the rotation was handled badly and we should have used the Munster home game to rest and rotate. Obviously I acknowledge that the other side of the argument has merits and it was a no-win scenario; it wasn't about there being a good time for the coaches to rotate, just a very hard decision to be made about what the least terrible game to do it in was. So fair enough, people are going to argue the toss regarding that one.

However, I still believe the team was complacent. Everything was off; defence, scrummaging, no intensity. I just don't think you prepare well and get motivated for a game and so consistently fall that short of the mark. And we looked shocked at Oyonnax showing plenty of fight and hitting every ruck like their life depended on it. As for 5 pointers being rare at away games in France, thats very true- but in my opinion we should have left with the bonus point based solely on the chances we created but didn't take in the second forty minutes alone. It's no coincidence Oyonnax have one of the most porous defences of all the teams in the Champions Cup this season.

I hope Ulster do get a bit of a rub of the green and go through. I will admit you've not been lucky when playing Saracens on two occasions - two big calls have gone our way - both involving Garces.

Certainly don't think we deserved to win in the match when Payne got sent off because the performance against 14 men was embarrassingly poor. With the benefit of hindsight Ashton should have been sent off too on this last match.

I think the teams most likely to help you are Leicester who will be gunning for top seeds and Exeter.

Cheers beshocked. I'm not sure luck has been on our side, but apart from that performance in the infamous "Payne-gate" match, which was kind of a heroic backs against the wall performance, we haven't been good enough against Sarries. We've been pretty good for 5-10 minute spells in the game in many of our past meetings, but then switched off at other moments or made mistakes just when we needed to go for the jugular.

The truth is though, we probably could have afforded to lose to Sarries twice had we picked up just one extra try in the Oyonnax game. Maybe we were also unlucky that game had to be rescheduled as it came in a very busy, demanding run of tricky fixtures but still- we probably had our destiny in our own hands after beating Toulouse away and we may have let it slip. We can't complain about ref decisions and rescheduled games when we didn't control the things we could control.

It's frustrating we've under performed against Saracens in this group because actually winning twice in France in one season is a fairly rare achievement for any province.

The Great Aukster wrote:At the risk of being labelled disingenuous again, I disagree that Ulster were naive away to Oyonnax. In fact I think it was a pragmatic selection by Kiss knowing that:
1. 5 pointers in France are like hen's teeth despite the media hype dissing the opposition
2. The squad is stretched to the limit and players need rest
3. The only way to progress is to get a home 1/4 so planning to play the stronger team against Saracens was the best chance of that
4. He had to select strong teams for Connacht and Munster because the League is far more important. I know you think progress in Europe sells season tickets, but most of those wavering buyers jump in the close season. If Ulster aren't in the top 6 it would be disastrous for ticket sales.

I agree - I think the failure to pick up 1 or 2 points at least against Sarries was more significant than not picking up 5 against Oyonnax.

Sarries are one of the top teams but really we should have done better. Losing bonus points are key in this comp.

Notch I agree. Ulster haven't been ruthless enough. Particularly in the game at Ravenhill when Sarries were down to 14 for 20 minutes the opportunities were there.

Ulster were in touch in both matches at half time - up in one, down in the other.

rodders I think it's both. Oyonnax should be two 5 pointers. Shouldn't be losing at Ravenhill by more than 7.

Lets face it, Saracens are one of the top sides in Europe if not THE top side so losing twice to them carries no shame. There's a fierce rivalry that's built up between Ulster and Saracens that I enjoy and we will get our revenge eventually. We should have taken 5 points at Oyonaxx and I fully believe we will tomorrow. It's just typical that we will then have to wait on other results. I have a good feeling about this weekend though so nil desperandum folks

Ulster Rugby
15. Jared Payne; 14. Andrew Trimble, 13. Darren Cave, 12. Luke Marshall, 11. Craig Gilroy; 10. Paddy Jackson, 9. Paul Marshall; 1. Kyle McCall, 2. Rob Herring, 3. Ricky Lutton, 4. Alan O'Connor, 5. Franco Van Der Merwe, 6. Robbie Diack, 7. Sean Reidy, 8. Nick Williams
16. Rory Best, 17. Callum Black, 18. Bronson Ross, 19. Clive Ross, 20. Roger Wilson, 21. David Shanahan, 22. Ian Humphreys, 23. Rory Scholes

Oyonnax
15. Florian Denos; 14. Daniel Ikpefan, 13. Guillaume Bousses, 12. Alaska Taufa, 11. Dug Codjo; 10. Rory Clegg, 9. Julien Blanc; 1. Soane Tonga'uiha, 2. Thomas Bordes, 3. Giorgi Vepkhvadze, 4. Leon Power, 5. Geoffrey Fabbri, 6. Valentin Ursache, 7. Pierrick Gunther, 8. Pedrie Wannenburg
16. Jeremie Maurouard, 17. Laurent Delboulbès, 18. Horace Pungea , 19. Fabrice Metz, 20. Maurie Fa'asavalu, 21. Fabien Cibray, 22. Regis Lespinas, 23. Eamonn Sheridan

Leinster have also named a fairly strong team for their game with Wasps with Sexton as captain and Ruddock in the second row, hopefully they can get a result and help Ulster out

15. Rob Kearney, 14. Zane Kirchner, 13. Luke Fitzgerald, 12. Noel Reid, 11. Dave Kearney, 10. Johnny Sexton, 9 . Eoin Reddan; 1. Jack McGrath, 2. Sean Cronin, 3. Marty Moore, 4. Devin Toner, 5. Rhys Ruddock, 6. Dominic Ryan, 7. Jordi Murphy, 8. Jamie Heaslip

16. Richardt Strauss, 17. Peter Dooley, 18. Michael Bent, 19. Ross Molony, 20. Josh van der Flier, 21. Isaac Boss, 22. Cathal Marsh, 23. Ben Te'o

Ulster have chosen to rest Pienaar for both games versus Oyonnax in this pool. This time we are also managing the amount of game time Best and McCloskey are getting.

Kiss has very clearly nailed his colours to the mast over the past few months; we are prioritising making sure we are making the playoffs and peaking coming into the final few weeks of the Pro12 season. I totally understand why and think it is the rational choice and offers us the best possible chance of winning silverware. I actually think we have a great chance of coming in under the radar to challenge for the title. I know many others also see this and totally agree with his selection policy, for well-thought out and valid reasons.

I have to admit that I am a little sad to see it though. For me, the three European home games were the Marquee fixtures of the season even when we weren't doing well for about a dozen years before we made the breakthrough into the knockout stages. Every single one of my favourite memories at Ravenhill has come against an English or French team in this competition, with no exceptions whatsoever. For me selections like this illustrate a little bit of why the magic of this tournament has been lost recently. As league games become more important, the meaning of the European Cup is diluted.

I feel sentimental because I love the European Cup and the golden age of that tournament is now well and truly over. The Irish teams were the last sides to treat it like a matter of life and death, huge occasions which always came above other games. Now team from all nations are choosing to rest and rotate for these big games due to player management. Fixture congestion and too much rugby has done away with that feeling of Cup Magic and the BT and Sky hype machine can't quite conceal that fact. If clubs like Ulster, Exeter etc. are pragmatic in how they approach this tournament and prioritise the league you're never going to see an outsider win it again.

Notch if it helps bring a bit of magic back for you, Pienaar is out with illness and Best has some tightness that restricted his training this week. McCloskey is rested because hes played every game this season

Actually that does help a lot marty. It's kind of like the end of a heartwarming Christmas film when the kid finds out Santa is real after all

Lets hope in this case that's an Ulster 5 pointer and a QF place

Not sure that team is worth 5 points against Oyonnax.

Biggest issue is Small Paul. Payne at 15 helps, though.

Not only does the starting 15 not fill me with confidence but, Rory aside, the bench is abysmal! A few early injuries could see this turn into an impossible task.

Notch wrote:Ulster have chosen to rest Pienaar for both games versus Oyonnax in this pool. This time we are also managing the amount of game time Best and McCloskey are getting.

Kiss has very clearly nailed his colours to the mast over the past few months; we are prioritising making sure we are making the playoffs and peaking coming into the final few weeks of the Pro12 season. I totally understand why and think it is the rational choice and offers us the best possible chance of winning silverware. I actually think we have a great chance of coming in under the radar to challenge for the title. I know many others also see this and totally agree with his selection policy, for well-thought out and valid reasons.

I have to admit that I am a little sad to see it though. For me, the three European home games were the Marquee fixtures of the season even when we weren't doing well for about a dozen years before we made the breakthrough into the knockout stages. Every single one of my favourite memories at Ravenhill has come against an English or French team in this competition, with no exceptions whatsoever. For me selections like this illustrate a little bit of why the magic of this tournament has been lost recently. As league games become more important, the meaning of the European Cup is diluted.

I feel sentimental because I love the European Cup and the golden age of that tournament is now well and truly over. The Irish teams were the last sides to treat it like a matter of life and death, huge occasions which always came above other games. Now team from all nations are choosing to rest and rotate for these big games due to player management. Fixture congestion and too much rugby has done away with that feeling of Cup Magic and the BT and Sky hype machine can't quite conceal that fact. If clubs like Ulster, Exeter etc. are pragmatic in how they approach this tournament and prioritise the league you're never going to see an outsider win it again.

Some teams have always rotated in the HEC to keep players fresh. Given that the AP teams have no rest weekends over the 6N so are having to rotate more than usual.

I appreciate that the Irish teams struggling but the tournament as a whole this year has been fantastic. As for no outsiders winning this is the year where Wasps trounced Toulon in a pool that is all over the place and genuinely open, Tigers went and did the unthinkable and become the first team to win twice at Munster in Europe, the Ospreys, Chiefs and Clermont pool looks set to be going to the wire. Lots of entertainment and to suggest the golden years are gone is odd and for me this is considerably better than the last few years where most pools were done and dusted by now most by game 4.

clivemcl wrote:Not only does the starting 15 not fill me with confidence but, Rory aside, the bench is abysmal! A few early injuries could see this turn into an impossible task.

This is the point Clive, the French and to a lesser extent the English can afford injuries now. The Pro12 teams were far more affected by the RWC and they don't have the domestic money to buy loads of cover. Oyonnax have more depth than Ulster and the gap will continue to widen. This will be the last year where the also rans think there is any point in fielding first team players in meaningless games.
I agree with Notch - the magic has been distilled, bottled and is being sold by snake-oil salesmen.

Ulster cannot expect 5 points at the KS because they can't cope with four or five top players out, and the bench certainly won't come to the rescue.

I disagree somewhat with the pessimism- yes we are a different beast with Ruan in the team and we are dependent on him. But while Paul Marshall has no control and no vision, if the forwards play at the kind super high intensity that we need, gaps will appear around the ruck and he can and will exploit those gaps. Its the one thing he does really, really well. If the forwards are going backwards in contact he will mess it up, he just cannot play behind a beaten pack. But if the forwards get reamed like they did in the first half over there we're not going to go through anyway. I know Pienaar and Jackson got a lot of the credit for the turnaround at halftime a few weeks ago, but they got an armchair ride in the second half whereas Marshall and Humphreys got absolute nothing to work with in the first. Humphreys is a lost cause, but Marshall is better than he showed that day.

Basically the forwards will decide this match and while there is a passenger in Reidy, Williams is far, far better than Wilson especially in getting us going forward. If Williams makes gainlines, and Marshall snipes around the next ruck, I think we'll be able to create a lot of broken field situations.

Not much to say except that I wish Ulster and the Ulster fans the best of luck today, hope you get the TBP win.

We want a good win. But in my mind i've decided, we need a good win more just for team confidence. I don't hold much hope for qualification I'm afraid.

Actually looking forward to see how Cave plays today.

Pretty good start for Ulster. Some good hands from Payne in the build-up as well.

Some very good play here from Ulster. Some silly errors after good breaks too though. I'd be surprised if we don't get a TBP at this stage.

There we go. Wonder how long Ulster continue before clearing the bench.

Only caught the last ten minutes of the half. What happened to Trimble?

Was just off at blood bin when Scholes scored. McCall went off early. Missed what happened but he looked awful. Bad bang it looked like.

Well played Ulster. Payne is having a stormer from 15 and Cave is performing very well. All coming together for Ulster.

Ah cheers Clive

Great try there. There seems to be a lot more pre-set moves under Kiss than previously.

Williams really has added that go forward ball for the Ulster forwards. Simply stunning from Ulster. Paddy 5 from 5.

Jackson playing with a lovely fluency and confidence.

Much easier when you're on the front foot obviously, but still great to watch.

Ulster piling on the points difference. Could yet make a difference.

Interesting to hear Paddy Wallace touting Henshaw and Payne to remain together for Ireland

Golden wrote:Interesting to hear Paddy Wallace touting Henshaw and Payne to remain together for Ireland

I may have misheard but I believe he said that's the partnership he thinks Schmidt would select, not who he would select.

Feeling sorry for Oyanax now. They are getting a pasting.

Payne deserved that try, he has been amazing today. Simply a complete performance from all the Ulster boys today, very enjoyable match.

eirebilly wrote:

Golden wrote:Interesting to hear Paddy Wallace touting Henshaw and Payne to remain together for Ireland

I may have misheard but I believe he said that's the partnership he thinks Schmidt would select, not who he would select.

Possibly, Im not too sure Billy. But right before that he does say that while he was happy to see Payne at 15 for Ulser he thought Payne was probably still the best option at 13 for Ireland.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Rob Herring would surely start at hooker for many pro teams! We may need to work hard to keep him next time his contract is up.

He is another player that has performed well today clive, deserved of his call up as well.

Great game from Ulster, and very pleased that they kept the pressure on until the final whistle. The forwards were outstanding, and Reidy is cooking nicely. Payne playing great were he plays best, hopefully Schmidt takes notice, and Jackson was superb. Williams very deserving of his award, I can only hope that we get an eight that can fill his considerable sized boots.

Now just to wait, nervously, on the other results, and hope the right teams fall.

SUFTUM