An idea for Welsh rugby

After looking at our regions, and seeing how far behind we are with the rest of Europe, I have started to think, and before anybody calls me stupid, or anything else as I have on here lately, just here me out, it is only an idea, it would never come into fruition. But this is what I would like to happen.

The Pro12 is not working for us Welsh, the crowds are low due to lack of interest, the officiating is not up to standard, there are to many instances of potential bias and the what not, I would like to see the Welsh walk away from it, and do their own thing. I have been thinking of how we could go about this. I would propose the following, a ring fenced top flight Premiership of 8 teams, two from each region. So for instance we could go with the following:

Neath
Swansea
Cardiff 
Pontypridd
Newport 
Ebbw Vale
Llanelli
Llandovery

It does not have to be these particular 8 teams, feel free to suggest different one's. These teams could play each other home and away for 16 weeks, with more away fans traveling between the games hopefully we could see a rise in attendances and a competition that more people in Wales would be interested in. We could market it to the hilt like the Australians have done with their big bash cricket, we could have it all singing and dancing, we could put tassels and bunting all over it and nice graphics on the tele and the what not.

Now when this has come to a climax, we would still have a gap to fill, so this is where we go onto the next level, when our league has finished, we could then move onto a regional competition to bring the season to a crescendo. We could then pick the best players from the two teams who have been playing within the league to then go on to represent their region. Imagine the debate, who should be picked for the regions ? It would be like one of the Lions threads on here  .

The regions could then duke it out with all the fans coming together to support it like they do with the derbies now, we could have a home and away basis, and a group of four, we could then have our judgement day,in the Principality Stadium,where the top two out of the group play for the cup and the bottom two play for the plate. If you finish bottom of the group and lose the plate then you would get the dreaded wooden spoon. The top two in the group then go on to play in Europe's top tier the following season and the bottom two go into the second tier the following season.

Now I know people are going to point out money issues with this and how can we afford to run eight teams, but the control of the regions would go over to the WRU, any players who are picked for the regions would get central contracts, but they would be able to represent the clubs they were produced by. Hopefully the bigger crowds and more interest in Wales would generate more money, and the academies could be run by the WRU.

Now I know there will be a few members on here who are going to rip this idea to shreds, but at least it is an idea, please feel free to add, our change anything, I would just like us all to come up with something that would suit us all.

Please can we refrain from turning this into anything personal, lets not get dragged into an argument and tell people how stupid they are, this is only an idea, lets run with fantasy for a bit and come up with names for the competition or any other permutations or any other ways of doing something different. This could be a bit of fun.

removed

No 7&1/2 wrote:More people at games, fewer watching on tv, resulting in less money overall. Quality spread over more teams so overall quality of each team lessened. You'd have to renegotiate particpation in Europe in a weaker position so probably less money.

You could call it the 'Death of rugby in Wales League'? Catchy.

Just the post is was hoping to avoid on this fun topic, Cheers 7&1/2. Do you just follow me around this forum to constantly berate me ?

Sorry thought this was a forum was for discussion not to just agree. I'll delete the other post.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry thought this was a forum was for discussion not to just agree. I'll delete the other post.

Look, you can disagree all you like, but it is the sarcasm aimed at me all the time that is annoying with you.

I don't actually use sarcasm often, normally just a string of questions. That was more a statement of what I think these changes would bring but if this thread is just a jokey one without discussion I will keep it light and have deleted the comment.

So basically Lord what you want is the Premiership cut down to 8 clubs, not increased as the WRU is embarking upon. Then moving the season as many others are proposing to the summer. I don't think many would disagree with that sort of format on these boards, especially after your proposed League, would come the Guinness and then successively European, 6N and finally summer tours, that has been proposed on these boards many times before, it is the different Unions that are against these proposals.
As others have said the player dilution would not help, and as you say the coaches are NOT good enough now, how would it get any better with 4 extra teams, and TV companies would not be in the slightest bit interested, and I can assure you I would not go and support any of your Welsh Premiership Teams, I would go and watch my local team Ogmore Vale or the team I played for Pontycymmer, as I do now when I have the opportunity.

wayne wrote:Then moving the season as many others are proposing to the summer

I did not propose that, but if you think it is a better idea, then ok we could go for it.

I reckon summer rugby should be for the youth and amateur set-ups.

It's not the worst idea in the world from a Wales perspective, although it would be critically damaging to Scotland and the pro12 in general.

However we don't know 100% it would be successful for Wales and Welsh teams either.

Persevering with the pro 12 is the way forward and tbh it's up to the Unions to make it accessable, meaningful and drum up interest. The likes of the Irish provinces and Glasgow seem to be able to generate interest. It's up to the other clubs to catch up and regions to catch up.

Ditching the Italian regions who are properly toiling might be a good start and perhaps inviting London Scottish into the league and creating that ever elusive third Scottish based pro 12 franchise.

That would make 4 irish provinces, 4 welsh, 3 scottish based with London Scottish making up the numbers.

The fact treviso haven't won a game for nearly a year tells you all you need to know about the state of that club.

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Then moving the season as many others are proposing to the summer

I did not propose that, but if you think it is a better idea, then ok we could go for it.

I reckon summer rugby should be for the youth and amateur set-ups.

Lord, you've said on many occasions in the past about people going to watch their local clubs, that is a reason for poor attendances at Regional level, what I and many others have said on here before if there is a proper structured season, with ALL club Rugby, followed by  the Regional Rugby first in the Guinness as it is now and then European followed by International at 6N and then the Foreign Tours, it could help with the standard as the lesser players have an opportunity to impress Regional and so on, not a mish mash of games, flitting between all.
Look, what if a player is impressing at Club level now for a couple of games and is selected for the Region, if he is not integrated properly into the Regional ways he could be discarded, but if he has a whole season at Club level and shows over that timescale he has the necessary promise, he could surely find it easier to slot in at the higher level, this also applies at the higher level. There has been nothing more ridiculous to me in the past few weeks is the pushing forward the likes of Sam Davies, Lloyd Ashley and I'll get slated for this one Ashton Hewitt for the International setup, they are nowhere near the standard for a long enough period to warrant their inclusion.

wayne, you do realise that this is all a bit of fun don't you ? I am just spit balling, looking at fun alternatives. 

Yes a more structured season is a good idea, perhaps playing the club season at a different time to the regional season might be a better idea.

Where's the money coming from to gain ownership of the four pro teams, centrally contract all the players and rent the use of the grounds from? Oh yeah a few hypothetical extra ticket sales. Righto.

I know what you said about finances but it is quite important in any professional sport. In short:
-Wales has a few businesses of size, but the sponsorship money would be small when split across 8 teams.
-A country of 2.5 million will not get great TV money. S4C and BBC Wales are rather limited in scope by language and cuts respectively
-Attendances could be alright and local derbies would be common
-Quality of games would struggle. Wales is struggling to put out and afford 4 teams at the moment. Don't see improvement with 8 being able to afford the internationals. The WRU owns half of Newport and still fails to invest in them
-Regions at the end will lead to tribalism (read Borders of Scotland) especially when there are 2 teams near each other. Certain historical issues will get in the way and fans may boycott.

I think there is scope for a rethink of the season with a stronger domestic comp like in the Southern Hemisphere following a regional comp. The Autumn internationals get in the way of most of my ideas. September-January could be Pro 12 with a domestic comp from Feb-June. Domestically Wales could keep it's present clubs and have them draft internationals in. Financially it is a struggle to get it to work and timing is tough. Also it is a short season for those not at a region and the H cup would have to be aligned.

In short, there is scope, but you need a terrific visionary leader and a lot of luck to implement successfully. Does that man work for the WRU in a position of importance?

Magic mushroom harvest early this year or what?

It's a good idea in principle, but the club season is 39 weeks long, with 2-3 weeks of pre-season on top of that (42 weeks).

Even with 12 teams the Welsh Premiership teams are up in arms over the lack of fixtures and that was including being in the Swalec Cup and formerly the British and Irish Cup.
It's actually better to simply have a 20 team league with 38 games, and not be bouncing around between different competitions.

If you had 8 teams in a league it's actually 14 weeks (not 16), so it's well short of whats required. The new 16 team league seems basically adequate 30 weeks long, along with the Swalec Cup can be about 5 weeks long, though it's a total shambles these days, teams can win and get knocked out, while others get byes due to the strange amount of teams.

I hope in the long term they might try some kind of massive European League. It's not impossible to have a 22 team league, over 42 weeks, provided everyone is willing to forgo pre-season friendlies. You could in theory have the Aviva teams and the 10 celtic teams.

Stone Motif wrote:Where's the money coming from to gain ownership of the four pro teams, centrally contract all the players and rent the use of the grounds from? Oh yeah a few hypothetical extra ticket sales. Righto.

Top dollar for a Cardiff v Llandovery fixture no doubt. Extra trains will have to be put on due to demand I reckon.
Where is Llandivery btw?

Far better would be to expend the pro 12 to 20 teams in two divisions. That gives room for 8 welsh teams and also allows the likes of Georgia, Romania to join as well

Your proposal would destroy welsh rugby - no chance of any european success as the teams would be weaker and would you even get entry? Ditching the pro 12 would make a lot of enemies - Wales squandered a lot of good will with their pro 12 partners in the european cup negotiations. This would mean the end of any co operation with the pro 12 teams.

[quote="TJ

Your proposal would destroy welsh rugby - no chance of any european success as the teams would be weaker and would you even get entry?  Ditching the pro 12 would make a lot of enemies - Wales squandered a lot of good will with their pro 12 partners in the european cup negotiations.  This would mean the end of any co operation with the pro 12 teams.

[/quote]

Doesn't really get us much now though does it. Poorer money in the pro12 and virtually no travelling fans

TJ wrote:Far better would be to expend the pro 12 to 20 teams in two divisions.  That gives room for 8 welsh teams and also allows the likes of Georgia, Romania to join as well

Your proposal would destroy welsh rugby - no chance of any european success as the teams would be weaker and would you even get entry?  Ditching the pro 12 would make a lot of enemies - Wales squandered a lot of good will with their pro 12 partners in the european cup negotiations.  This would mean the end of any co operation with the pro 12 teams.

Utter nonsense

Really - so now you have 4 teams who make no impact in Europe. divide the money per team inhalf, split your quality players between twice as many teams - you think you would do better with with less quality players per team and half the budget?

TJ wrote:Really - so now you have 4 teams who make no impact in Europe.  divide the money per team inhalf, split your quality players between twice as many teams - you think you would do better with with less quality players per team and half the budget?

Sorry, whatever ludicrous thought process links the first post to the second you'll have to explain as the logic seems absent.

And please, spare me the cobblers about adding the Georgians.

So why would that work now when it wasn't working before the Regions were set up?

The season before the warriors started Bridgend averaged 2500 to a game, not enough to support a clubs finances

Who remembers the Welsh-Scottish league from 1999 - 2002???!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999%E2%80%932000_Welsh-Scottish_League
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%9301_Welsh-Scottish_League
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E2%80%9302_Welsh-Scottish_League

Some woeful attendances at the start of the Celtic league too (for the Welsh sides mainly), in the 'glory days' when we were clubs (in Wales) (select 01/02 from the drop down box).

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php?includeref=10808&season=2001-2002#Sc2bdTLiZxXAouAS.97

I think this is an excellent idea.

The Welsh people would get back their clubs, people would start attending club rugby matches and bring back all their good players playing elsewhere.

The Pro12 would be the PRO 8 for a while until new team partners could be found. Or else the Irish and Scottish teams could become feeder clubs for the teams in the Premiership.

Alternatively, the Italians might

Stone

TJ wrote:Far better would be to expend the pro 12 to 20 teams in two divisions.  That gives room for 8 welsh teams and also allows the likes of Georgia, Romania to join as well

Your proposal would destroy welsh rugby - no chance of any european success as the teams would be weaker and would you even get entry?  Ditching the pro 12 would make a lot of enemies - Wales squandered a lot of good will with their pro 12 partners in the european cup negotiations.  This would mean the end of any co operation with the pro 12 teams.

An idea for Welsh rugby Fans....... put aside your differences and support the Regions in the Pro12.

Its not that simple though tighthead and i have sympathy for ponty fans as the blues made no effort initially to welcome them. Imagine Leicester being shut down and telling the fans to start supporting Northampton....bet that would go down well

True Raven wrote:Its not that simple though tighthead and i have sympathy for ponty fans as the blues made no effort initially to welcome them.  Imagine Leicester being shut down and telling the fans to start supporting Northampton....bet that would go down well

They would get over it if they wanted to watch a live rugby game.

I've only seen a handful of Pro12 games this season but it seems to me the big name players rarely make an appearance.

They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level. Hence why they don't support the Blues

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

LD - I like parts of the idea!

For me as an outsider the big problem with the Welsh regions is tribalism or rather the lack of it. The regions come across as cobbled together units that are professionally expedient but cast adrift from a lot of the grassroots support in Wales.

In order to get the enthusiasm from more fans for the regions they have to feel part of them and the ham-fisted adoption of existing teams at the start of regionalisation alienated rival supporters from teams not directly involved or those who felt marginalised.

So rather than scrap the regions as you propose I would suggest you have a hierarchy of teams, with the Welsh national side at the top, four Union controlled regions (not necessarily the current ones) below that, and say 8/12 sub-regional franchises below that again (2/3 per region). Those franchises won't appeal to everyone in Wales but would be part of a semi-professional league encompassing the wider heartland of Welsh rugby and concentrate the best players in fewer teams with a direct career progression to regional and National selection. All those Academy and development players would be playing regularly at a higher level against each other and those promising players just outside Academy contracts would have a perfect outlet to show regional selectors how they had made a mistake. The teams you suggest could be the 8 franchises or if there were four more suitable - 12 might be a better number?

Franchises would be up for grabs from time to time so other teams would have an opportunity to outbid existing ones, so despite no relegation/promotion it wouldn't be an entirely closed shop to the rest of Wales.

Apart from the clubs being called franchises i dont see how that's dissimilar to what we have now. And also the regions being union controlled which would be a disaster. Letting the regions run as professional clubs without any caveats would be the way forward.

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

So what you're basically saying is football fans of Exeter, Burnley, MK Dons and any lower league team should stop supporting their local club and support Manchester United, Liverpool or Chelsea becasue they're a better team with better players despite having no attachment or loyalty to those clubs?

People are allowed to support a lower league rugby club especially when its based in their hometown

The Great Aukster wrote:LD - I like parts of the idea!

Thank you very much, I was just fantasising with an idea. I thought I would have a bit of fun, feel free to add what you like.

The Great Aukster wrote:So rather than scrap the regions as you propose

I do not want to scrap the regions, we can still keep them for the end of season competition and Europe.

I know you don't want serious comments but would the remaining clubs/organisations want scratch sides included in a Euro comp?

True Raven wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

So what you're basically saying is football fans of Exeter, Burnley, MK Dons and any lower league team should stop supporting their local club and support Manchester United, Liverpool or Chelsea becasue they're a better team with better players despite having no attachment or loyalty to those clubs?

People are allowed to support a lower league rugby club especially when its based in their hometown

You said it not me, Football fans and rugby fans are very different, for one they don't have to be separated at a game (yet!) so I fail to see why welsh rugby fans can't support both a local club and their nearest Region. Two very different things.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know you don't want serious comments but would the remaining clubs/organisations want scratch sides included in a Euro comp?

They would not be scratch sides, they would be full of centrally contracted players, who would be released for the odd league game, obviously they would have to get together a week or so in advance ready for the CC, but they would be playing together every week in the regional competition after the league has finished.

Shifty wrote:It's a good idea in principle, but the club season is 39 weeks long, with 2-3 weeks of pre-season on top of that (42 weeks).  

Even with 12 teams the Welsh Premiership teams are up in arms over the lack of fixtures and that was including being in the Swalec Cup and formerly the British and Irish Cup.  
It's actually better to simply have a 20 team league with 38 games, and not be bouncing around between different competitions.

If you had 8 teams in a league it's actually 14 weeks (not 16), so it's well short of whats required.  The new 16 team league seems basically adequate 30 weeks long, along with the Swalec Cup can be about 5 weeks long, though it's a total shambles these days, teams can win and get knocked out, while others get byes due to the strange amount of teams.  

I hope in the long term they might try some kind of massive European League.  It's not impossible to have a 22 team league, over 42 weeks, provided everyone is willing to forgo pre-season friendlies.  You could in theory have the Aviva teams and the 10 celtic teams.  

Shifty, we could start with 8 teams, and when North Wales is up and running we could include another two from up there perhaps.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know you don't want serious comments but would the remaining clubs/organisations want scratch sides included in a Euro comp?

They would not be scratch sides, they would be full of centrally contracted players, who would be released for the odd league game, obviously they would have to get together a week or so in advance ready for the CC, but they would be playing together every week in the regional competition after the league has finished.

So pretty much like now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know you don't want serious comments but would the remaining clubs/organisations want scratch sides included in a Euro comp?

I doubt it. the teams would be weaker than existing welsh teams and also pulling out of the pro 12 would mean so much loss of goodwill ( already strained because of the euro mess) that I would expect any attempt by these teams to join the euro cup would be denied.

Griff wrote:Some woeful attendances at the start of the Celtic league too (for the Welsh sides mainly), in the 'glory days' when we were clubs (in Wales) (select 01/02 from the drop down box).

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php?includeref=10808&season=2001-2002#Sc2bdTLiZxXAouAS.97

'glory days' my @rse!
For context like, lots of other sh!t going on too and the rebel season was still fresh in the memory. Plus the WRU were skint and regional rugby was looming. In other words, cheesed off supporters had already began walking.

True Raven wrote:Its not that simple though tighthead and i have sympathy for ponty fans as the blues made no effort initially to welcome them.  Imagine Leicester being shut down and telling the fans to start supporting Northampton....bet that would go down well

What does that even mean?
Neither club wanted to merge with each other from the start.

TightHEAD wrote:An idea for Welsh rugby Fans....... put aside your differences and support the Regions in the Pro12.

All on here support at least one of the 4.

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:Its not that simple though tighthead and i have sympathy for ponty fans as the blues made no effort initially to welcome them.  Imagine Leicester being shut down and telling the fans to start supporting Northampton....bet that would go down well

They would get over it if they wanted to watch a live rugby game.

I've only seen a handful of Pro12 games this season but it seems to me the big name players rarely make an appearance.

Huge emphasis on team Wales partly to blame.

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

In your opinion, what's a region?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:Some woeful attendances at the start of the Celtic league too (for the Welsh sides mainly), in the 'glory days' when we were clubs (in Wales) (select 01/02 from the drop down box).

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php?includeref=10808&season=2001-2002#Sc2bdTLiZxXAouAS.97

'glory days' my @rse!
For context like, lots of other sh!t going on too and the rebel season was still fresh in the memory. Plus the WRU were skint and regional rugby was looming. In other words, cheesed off supporters had already began walking.

I was being sarcastic Dave, due to the number of posters harking back to the supposed glory days before regional rugby when, if you look at the links, show that the clubs were not packing the fans in and the situation was not all rosy. In most cases the clubs were struggling for support more than they are now. Even in the all singing all dancing Welsh Derbies.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

In your opinion, what's a region?

What's your big hang up with this 'regional' term Dave? It's just a term. Call it provincial, franchise, district, representative, whatever. It's not that hard to understand. Identify an area, group the clubs together in that area and create/use a pro side in that area to represent them at pro level. Everyone then feeds upwards in terms of pathways to the pro club (in theory). Great if the areas exist already in administrative/political terms (e.g. Ireland) but if not them make them up (NZ, Wales). The areas don't have to be completely rigid in terms of who they cover, as we've seen with changes in NZ and Wales.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

In your opinion, what's a region?

What's your big hang up with this 'regional' term Dave? It's just a term. Call it provincial, franchise, district, representative, whatever. It's not that hard to understand. Identify an area, group the clubs together in that area and create/use a pro side in that area to represent them at pro level. Everyone then feeds upwards in terms of pathways to the pro club (in theory). Great if the areas exist already in administrative/political terms (e.g. Ireland) but if not them make them up (NZ, Wales). The areas don't have to be completely rigid in terms of who they cover, as we've seen with changes in NZ and Wales.

It's just a term with a right old clusterf6ck of connotations, most of which are unhelpful to the core business of running a pro rugby team in Wales. Especially the representative part, which to the average simpleton Welsh fan translates into entitlement.