Six Nations veto bonus points bid

First topic message reminder :

I totally agree with this, if it ain't broke don't fix it. With a bonus point system in place, you could go the whole tournament unbeaten and still lose out, nah for me it is fine as it is, lets not play about with it, what does everyone else think ?

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/24995/six-nations-veto-bonus-points-bid-as-unfair/

Scotland owns the Spurtle

(sorry Scotland, and not entirely fair)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:One argument against bringing in a bonus-point system in the Six Nations is that you don't play your opponents home and away, and that could skew things. For example, teams playing Italy Wales in Rome Cardiff would (in theory!) find it harder to get a bonus point than the teams that play Italy Wales at home.

Fixed

Cyril wrote:NZ own World Rugby (those in black are whiter than white)
England own the 6 Nations (got to keep John Iverdale happy)
Ireland own the PrO'12 (those Irish refs and Friday kick-offs)
Wales own the Lions (jobs for the boyos and gatlandball forever)

How is the rest carved up?

Scotland own the moral victory

Riskysports wrote:

Cyril wrote:NZ own World Rugby (those in black are whiter than white)
England own the 6 Nations (got to keep John Iverdale happy)
Ireland own the PrO'12 (those Irish refs and Friday kick-offs)
Wales own the Lions (jobs for the boyos and gatlandball forever)

How is the rest carved up?

Scotland own the moral victory

On their day Wales own all of these things.

I still fancy scotland as dark horses for a bonus point

I think the 3 bonus points for winning 5 games is ridiculous personally. By week 2 or 3, a team win 2/3 wins and no bonus points should be concerned if there is another team with full tray of bonus points, and the 3 bonus points removes an incentive for them to open up and try to score more tries. If that's the objective, why go against it.

Personally, I'd only award the Grand Slam if you won the Championship AND all your games.

In truth, no team with a worse points record would have ever overtaken a team with a better points record with the retrospective application of bonus points, let alone a team overhauling a GS winner. Bonus points would only ever be used as a separator (unless one team completely refused to play for them), and in that respect I don't think they are any more inherently unfair I'm the Six Nations than points difference. You can pile 60 on Italy in the last weekend if you're chasing points, whereas a team who played them first up may have got their 4 tries, but only scored 30.

For example, you could say that England might be looking to get 15 points at home this year and 5 away to put themselves on a strong 20 and take advantage of 3 bonus points while playing at home. But that would mean they've got a 4-1 record and scored plenty of tries, which should out them in the hunt in any year. 5 wins would top England's 20 on games won. A team winning 4 and getting fewer bonus points because they had fewer home games would probably end up with a worse points difference, so would have lost on old rules as well.

You'll win more home games, get a better points difference at home and score more bonus points at home. Bonus points don't add to the unfairness of the tournament, they just don't redress the imbalance of having different numbers of home or away games.

So basically there's no benefit in having bonus points?

It's just a different separator, so if teams finish with identical W/L records (as often happens) they'll come into play. Otherwise they won't materially affect the standings. It's just whether you think BPs or PD is better, and that's a subjective call. I wouldn't say eitr are more or less inherently "unfair" though.

It does, however bring the tournament in line with every other top level rugby tournament. And it might liven up a few games where one team is reasonably comfortable (say 12 points up after 50 minutes). If points difference is your separator, scoring points (be it by kicks or tries) and not conceding are given equal weighting for the team ahead and the team trailing (who may go for damage limitation). With bonus points, the team ahead is encouraged to play for tries, while the teak trailing is closer to a tangible result from the game, so in theory should stay interested for longer.

robbo277 wrote:.......
Personally, I'd only award the Grand Slam if you won the Championship AND all your games.

.......

This is a wind up right.... You can ONLY win the GRAND SLAM if you win ALL of your games.. that is the GRAND SLAM.

I've said on other threads about this barmy bonus points system. The problem isn't if you win the SLAM, as by winning all your games, they award extra BP which means you can lose the title. The problem is that a side winning only 3 games but with BP on all games (ie winning and losing BPs) can finish above a side winning 4 games without BPs. Therefore you can take the 6 Nations Title winning less games than the side who would finish second.

Now that cannot be right...

There is no need for BPs, the points difference, to separate the table has worked well since it was introduced and doesn't need changing.

If it isn't broke, don't change it... And the 6 Nations is NOT BROKE.

By the way, come across this thread (again) as been trying to find out if they have binned this BP brain fart...

This thread was a little mis-leading suggesting it had been binned, yet the OP refers back to Jan 2016. So I guess its still going ahead..

Please someone tell me its been binned..

No9 wrote:By the way, come across this thread (again) as been trying to find out if they have binned this BP brain fart...

This thread was a little mis-leading suggesting it had been binned, yet the OP refers back to Jan 2016. So I guess its still going ahead..

Please someone tell me its been binned..

It's definitely going ahead

https://www.606v2.com/t64610-6-nations-to-introduce-bonus-points-in-2017

There's no perfect system (especially with unequal home/away fixtures) and points difference can also be decided by who thrashes Scotland or Italy by the most.

The 6 Nations does need a big shake-up, but I'm not convinced this is the way to do it. I'd rather lose the side contributing the least (currently Italy) to raise the standard rather than current proposals.

So the first weekend of bonus points has demonstrated,,, what?

Neither Scotland nor Ireland were motivated enough to go for the TBP, having both scored three tries. Wales should have had a bonus especially as Italy tried to gift them one.
Therein lies the fundamental flaw of the bonus point system in the 6N. Italy had nothing to play for other than to entertain their home fans. To their credit they thought it was still a good idea to run the ball from their own line and didn't care whether they conceded a bonus point in the process.

The underlying problem is that bonus points are often meaningless to the team conceding them. If a bonus point was secured at the expense of the opposing team's haul then both teams would be fighting much harder to determine their destination.

Cyril wrote:NZ own World Rugby (those in black are whiter than white)
England own the 6 Nations (got to keep John Iverdale happy)
Ireland own the PrO'12 (those Irish refs and Friday kick-offs)
Wales own the Lions (jobs for the boyos and gatlandball forever)

How is the rest carved up?

Italy own the wooden spoon?

Cyril wrote:

No9 wrote:By the way, come across this thread (again) as been trying to find out if they have binned this BP brain fart...

This thread was a little mis-leading suggesting it had been binned, yet the OP refers back to Jan 2016. So I guess its still going ahead..

Please someone tell me its been binned..

It's definitely going ahead

https://www.606v2.com/t64610-6-nations-to-introduce-bonus-points-in-2017

There's no perfect system (especially with unequal home/away fixtures) and points difference can also be decided by who thrashes Scotland or Italy by the most.

The 6 Nations does need a big shake-up, but I'm not convinced this is the way to do it. I'd rather lose the side contributing the least (currently Italy) to raise the standard rather than current proposals.

Oops

I don't the bonus system came into anyone's minds this weekend bar Wales with about twenty to go.

Riskysports wrote:

Cyril wrote:

No9 wrote:By the way, come across this thread (again) as been trying to find out if they have binned this BP brain fart...

This thread was a little mis-leading suggesting it had been binned, yet the OP refers back to Jan 2016. So I guess its still going ahead..

Please someone tell me its been binned..

It's definitely going ahead

https://www.606v2.com/t64610-6-nations-to-introduce-bonus-points-in-2017

There's no perfect system (especially with unequal home/away fixtures) and points difference can also be decided by who thrashes Scotland or Italy by the most.

The 6 Nations does need a big shake-up, but I'm not convinced this is the way to do it. I'd rather lose the side contributing the least (currently Italy) to raise the standard rather than current proposals.

Oops

Not sure what your point is there. Scotland and Italy are traditionally the two sides who boost the points differences for the title contenders. It doesn't mean they both get badly beaten every game (or every year) of course.

Cyril wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

Cyril wrote:

No9 wrote:By the way, come across this thread (again) as been trying to find out if they have binned this BP brain fart...

This thread was a little mis-leading suggesting it had been binned, yet the OP refers back to Jan 2016. So I guess its still going ahead..

Please someone tell me its been binned..

It's definitely going ahead

https://www.606v2.com/t64610-6-nations-to-introduce-bonus-points-in-2017

There's no perfect system (especially with unequal home/away fixtures) and points difference can also be decided by who thrashes Scotland or Italy by the most.

The 6 Nations does need a big shake-up, but I'm not convinced this is the way to do it. I'd rather lose the side contributing the least (currently Italy) to raise the standard rather than current proposals.

Oops

Not sure what your point is there. Scotland and Italy are traditionally the two sides who boost the points differences for the title contenders. It doesn't mean they both get badly beaten every game (or every year) of course.

Scotland have not been thrashed for a while (except that strange last weekend). We seem to always get close and lose by a score or less - it was nice to be the other side of that this weekend :-)

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't the bonus system came into anyone's minds this weekend bar Wales with about twenty to go.

I assume you mean 20 seconds rather than minutes.

I would say Wales started thinking about bonus points after their second try, which killed off any meagre chance Italy had. Lack of bonus point against Italy might come back to haunt them. Scotland could have gone for it at the end but rightly IMO decided to see out the win first. I stand by what I originally said: I'm not sure bonus points adds that much to the competition, feels a bit unnecessary, but neither do I hate the idea. Let's wait and see.

123456789 wrote:We could have a situation whereby a team wins the grand slam but not the six nations which is ridiculous.

No you can't. How can a team that wins every match not win the 6N? Despite bonus points.

Taylorman wrote:

123456789 wrote:We could have a situation whereby a team wins the grand slam but not the six nations which is ridiculous.

No you can't. How can a team that wins every match not win the 6N? Despite bonus points.

Without the three point bonus for the GS, you could theoretically have a team who wins all their matches with no bonus points getting 20 points, while another team wins four from five, with TBPs in all matches (including the one they lose) and a losing BP in the one they lost giving them 22 points in total... Probably unlikely, but possible, hence the three extra points given for the GS, guaranteeing that a side who does the GS will always win the title.

I think that it is unfair. Whoever get's Italy at home is as good as guaranteed maximum points.

LordDowlais wrote:I think that it is unfair. Whoever get's Italy at home is as good as guaranteed maximum points.

I think that regardless of bonus points, Italy really aren't justifying their place in the tournament.

Not sure I agree with that. they have defeated every team in the 6N now at some point bar England (wales, Scotland and France more than once). they also had a decent November. Dont think they were given the rub of the green v Wales.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not sure I agree with that. they have defeated every team in the 6N now at some point bar England (wales, Scotland and France more than once). they also had a decent November. Dont think they were given the rub of the green v Wales.

Hearing this a lot from Irish posters but not been given any clear examples.

munkian wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not sure I agree with that. they have defeated every team in the 6N now at some point bar England (wales, Scotland and France more than once). they also had a decent November. Dont think they were given the rub of the green v Wales.

Hearing this a lot from Irish posters but not been given any clear examples.

Examples of what?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

munkian wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not sure I agree with that. they have defeated every team in the 6N now at some point bar England (wales, Scotland and France more than once). they also had a decent November. Dont think they were given the rub of the green v Wales.

Hearing this a lot from Irish posters but not been given any clear examples.

Examples of what?

Where Italy were on the receiving end of poor decisions or where Wales got out of Jail ?

So did the addition of bonus points make the games more exciting for everyone? Were you on the edge of your seat more than in previous years? That's what the bonus points were about, weren't they?! Entertainment for the fans!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not sure I agree with that. they have defeated every team in the 6N now at some point bar England (wales, Scotland and France more than once). they also had a decent November. Dont think they were given the rub of the green v Wales.

Nah, they were well beaten by Wales and could have shipped another few tries.

Italy are honest and make good tackle bags for 50 mins or so but once they lose shape they are easily picked apart. I have to say that with Parisse as captain it's difficult to even like them as underdogs any more.

Griff wrote:So did the addition of bonus points make the games more exciting for everyone?  Were you on the edge of your seat more than in previous years?  That's what the bonus points were about, weren't they?!  Entertainment for the fans!

I think we need to give it more than one weekend!

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not sure I agree with that. they have defeated every team in the 6N now at some point bar England (wales, Scotland and France more than once). they also had a decent November. Dont think they were given the rub of the green v Wales.

Nah, they were well beaten by Wales and could have shipped another few tries.

Italy are honest and make good tackle bags for 50 mins or so but once they lose shape they are easily picked apart. I have to say that with Parisse as captain it's difficult to even like them as underdogs any more.

I think if we had gone for points when we could then their heads may have dropped sooner.

We left a fair few tries on the pitch too.

Conor O'Shea went on a rant after the game that Italy never get the rub of the green. In fairness they did cop a yellow card for scrum infringements and Wales didnt get any yellow cards earlier in the game for repeatedly slowing down the ball. Wasnt that impressed with JP Doyle.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Conor O'Shea went on a rant after the game that Italy never get the rub of the green. In fairness they did cop a yellow card for scrum infringements and Wales didnt get any yellow cards earlier in the game for repeatedly slowing down the ball. Wasnt that impressed with JP Doyle.

An Irishman complaining about the ref ?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Conor O'Shea went on a rant after the game that Italy never get the rub of the green. In fairness they did cop a yellow card for scrum infringements and Wales didnt get any yellow cards earlier in the game for repeatedly slowing down the ball. Wasnt that impressed with JP Doyle.

They explained this on Scrum V last night. When Italy got the scrum yellow card it was something like their 13th penalty against, while Wales were only on 2 or 3 at that point.

munkian wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not sure I agree with that. they have defeated every team in the 6N now at some point bar England (wales, Scotland and France more than once). they also had a decent November. Dont think they were given the rub of the green v Wales.

Nah, they were well beaten by Wales and could have shipped another few tries.

Italy are honest and make good tackle bags for 50 mins or so but once they lose shape they are easily picked apart. I have to say that with Parisse as captain it's difficult to even like them as underdogs any more.

I think if we had gone for points when we could then their heads may have dropped sooner.

We left a fair few tries on the pitch too.

That's what I mean. Once Italy fall behind they tend to capitulate. I think if Wales had started to up the tempo a bit earlier they would have reached the bonus point with ease (and probably gone over 50 points into the bargain).

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Conor O'Shea went on a rant after the game that Italy never get the rub of the green. In fairness they did cop a yellow card for scrum infringements and Wales didnt get any yellow cards earlier in the game for repeatedly slowing down the ball. Wasnt that impressed with JP Doyle.

Bad weekend all round for the Irish. Players, coaches, refs...

Probably all rounded off by Donald Trump proclaiming Guinness as his favourite tipple.

Cyril wrote:

munkian wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not sure I agree with that. they have defeated every team in the 6N now at some point bar England (wales, Scotland and France more than once). they also had a decent November. Dont think they were given the rub of the green v Wales.

Nah, they were well beaten by Wales and could have shipped another few tries.

Italy are honest and make good tackle bags for 50 mins or so but once they lose shape they are easily picked apart. I have to say that with Parisse as captain it's difficult to even like them as underdogs any more.

I think if we had gone for points when we could then their heads may have dropped sooner.

We left a fair few tries on the pitch too.

That's what I mean. Once Italy fall behind they tend to capitulate. I think if Wales had started to up the tempo a bit earlier they would have reached the bonus point with ease (and probably gone over 50 points into the bargain).

Yup, he said the next player to get pinged would be carded - team penalty.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Conor O'Shea went on a rant after the game that Italy never get the rub of the green. In fairness they did cop a yellow card for scrum infringements and Wales didnt get any yellow cards earlier in the game for repeatedly slowing down the ball. Wasnt that impressed with JP Doyle.

Bad weekend all round for the Irish. Players, coaches, refs...

Probably all rounded off by Donald Trump proclaiming Guinness as his favourite tipple.

Did he???

Oh I wuv him even more now! He weally wuvs the English and will make them great again by drinking more of their beer.

BTW, we have some.................. Ireland 2017 Grand Slam shirts that we had printed earlier. I wonder will Donald take them off us at a knock-down price? What did he pay you fellas?

munkian wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Conor O'Shea went on a rant after the game that Italy never get the rub of the green. In fairness they did cop a yellow card for scrum infringements and Wales didnt get any yellow cards earlier in the game for repeatedly slowing down the ball. Wasnt that impressed with JP Doyle.

An Irishman complaining about the ref ?  

He's Terry Wogan Irish at this point. Home Counties Irish

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Conor O'Shea went on a rant after the game that Italy never get the rub of the green. In fairness they did cop a yellow card for scrum infringements and Wales didnt get any yellow cards earlier in the game for repeatedly slowing down the ball. Wasnt that impressed with JP Doyle.

Bad weekend all round for the Irish. Players, coaches, refs...

Probably all rounded off by Donald Trump proclaiming Guinness as his favourite tipple.

Its a good thing England were so good.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Conor O'Shea went on a rant after the game that Italy never get the rub of the green. In fairness they did cop a yellow card for scrum infringements and Wales didnt get any yellow cards earlier in the game for repeatedly slowing down the ball. Wasnt that impressed with JP Doyle.

Bad weekend all round for the Irish. Players, coaches, refs...

Probably all rounded off by Donald Trump proclaiming Guinness as his favourite tipple.

Its a good thing England were so good.

England were pretty terrible. Still won though, even after getting a bit bullied by France. Take note, Ireland

The Trump/Guinness thing may be ***Fake News***

The problem was France were terrible too. They are so unbelievably disorganised. The Speeding kick at the end is evidence for me of a fairly badly managed team with a real headless chicken approach.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The problem was France were terrible too. They are so unbelievably disorganised. The Speeding kick at the end is evidence for me of a fairly badly managed team with a real headless chicken approach.

France are better than they were last year (when they beat Ireland).

Ireland will need to improve or we could be replacing them with Georgia. Like in 2007 there's not much between them.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The problem was France were terrible too. They are so unbelievably disorganised. The Speeding kick at the end is evidence for me of a fairly badly managed team with a real headless chicken approach.

France are better than they were last year (when they beat Ireland).

Ireland will need to improve or we could be replacing them with Georgia. Like in 2007 there's not much between them.

Ireland have the second best win ration in the 6 nations. You would have to be an idiot to want to replace them. Are you an idiot Cyril?

England were lucky not to lose and at home too.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The problem was France were terrible too. They are so unbelievably disorganised. The Speeding kick at the end is evidence for me of a fairly badly managed team with a real headless chicken approach.

France are better than they were last year (when they beat Ireland).

Ireland will need to improve or we could be replacing them with Georgia. Like in 2007 there's not much between them.

Ireland have the second best win ration in the 6 nations. You would have to be an idiot to want to replace them. Are you an idiot Cyril?

England were lucky not to lose and at home too.

It's the here and now Guns. No point hanging on to those past glories or the 6 Nations will just stagnate.

A year in the 2nd Tier will do you the world of good (and remove a bit of that Irish arrogance).

You know it makes sense

PS Yes, I'm an idiot.

If relegation was introduced for arrogance England would never be promoted. Is that what you really want?

Nothing wrong with a bit of arrogance anyway.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The problem was France were terrible too. They are so unbelievably disorganised. The Speeding kick at the end is evidence for me of a fairly badly managed team with a real headless chicken approach.

France are better than they were last year (when they beat Ireland).

Ireland will need to improve or we could be replacing them with Georgia. Like in 2007 there's not much between them.

Ireland have the second best win ration in the 6 nations. You would have to be an idiot to want to replace them. Are you an idiot Cyril?

England were lucky not to lose and at home too.

Yes you are not wrong there. If it had not been for thye subs coming on when they did England would of lost.


It does seem daft when you look at how good the French was, how much more metres they made, how much more line breaks they made. And yet England still found away to win. Even if it was an ugly win.

I think Cyril is right. We should drop down for our own good and play sides more of our own ilk and quality.
The SH Championship is just about right.

SecretFly wrote:I think Cyril is right.  We should drop down for our own good and play sides more of our own ilk and quality.  
The SH Championship is just about right.

They are not that good. even you know that.    

majesticimperialman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I think Cyril is right.  We should drop down for our own good and play sides more of our own ilk and quality.  
The SH Championship is just about right.

They are not that good. even you know that.    

I know, I know, majestic. The All Blacks have been found out, you're right.