England Versus Ireland Squad, etc.

by cb Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:44 pm

A topic as suggested for the Ireland match.

What changes to the England squad would you make?

If Brookes is fit, I would replace Hill. Also I think we need more than 2 backs on the bench - hence bring back Devoto. Since Itoje can cover at lock I would leave out Lawes and start Launchbury and Kruis (and expect them to play 80 minutes).

I expect Jones to stay with current backrow but?

by **LondonTiger** Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:21 am

England Head Coach Eddie Jones has retained the 23-man matchday squad which beat Italy on Sunday for training this week in London.

Jones' side beat Italy 40-9 at the Stadio Olimpico to record successive victories in this year's RBS 6 Nations tournament.

Bath centre Ollie Devoto will also remain with the squad as injury cover for Alex Goode (Saracens), who has sustained a minor ankle injury.

Sale Sharks forward Josh Beaumont had travelled with the squad to Rome but will return to his club for the weekend's Premiership action.

Forwards (14)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs (10)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

by sad_gimp Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:29 am

I expect we'll see exactly the same as the Italy game, barring injuries. Robshaw/Haskell to put in the heavy lifting dealing Ireland's backrow and bring on our young whipper-snapper subs to run them ragged when legs start to tire in the second half.

by king_carlos Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:07 am

The issue with Kruis and Launchbury starting with Itoje covering from the bench is the line-out. Whilst Toner gives up a fair bit around the park one thing he does offer is an outstanding line-out jumper and disrupter. Donnacha Ryan is strong here as well.

Around the park I'd hope for Launchbury and Kruis to dominate them around the park, this is an area where I feel England could gain a key pack ascendancy. It would be a bold call from Jones to leave his line-out one injury to Kruis away from bare thin jumpers and callers though.

by fa0019 Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:27 am

Toner seems to be able to wreck mauls at will at the moment.

by demosthenes Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:00 am

fa0019 wrote:Toner seems to be able to wreck mauls at will at the moment.

Anyone can if the referees allow it!

by fa0019 Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:04 am

demosthenes wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Toner seems to be able to wreck mauls at will at the moment.

Anyone can if the referees allow it!

Toner always seems to be within the law. Being 7ft, a likewise wingspan no doubt and 20st helps mind.

by lostinwales Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:26 am

fa0019 wrote:
demosthenes wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Toner seems to be able to wreck mauls at will at the moment.

Anyone can if the referees allow it!

Toner always seems to be within the law. Being 7ft, a likewise wingspan no doubt and 20st helps mind.

he just looks all wrong though

by Exiledinborders Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:28 am

king_carlos wrote:The issue with Kruis and Launchbury starting with Itoje covering from the bench is the line-out. Whilst Toner gives up a fair bit around the park one thing he does offer is an outstanding line-out jumper and disrupter. Donnacha Ryan is strong here as well.

Around the park I'd hope for Launchbury and Kruis to dominate them around the park, this is an area where I feel England could gain a key pack ascendancy. It would be a bold call from Jones to leave his line-out one injury to Kruis away from bare thin jumpers and callers though.

I would play Itoje in place of Robshaw to boost the lineout. It will not happen because given the squad Jones has chosen that would mean playing Robshaw from the bench and to think of player less suited to be an impact player would be difficult.

by fa0019 Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:29 am

lostinwales wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
demosthenes wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Toner seems to be able to wreck mauls at will at the moment.

Anyone can if the referees allow it!

Toner always seems to be within the law. Being 7ft, a likewise wingspan no doubt and 20st helps mind.

he just looks all wrong though

needs to go to that Graham Gooch clinic for certain... imagine its been updated since with a newer baldy!

by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:32 am

Devoto called up to cover Goodes injury.

by king_carlos Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:46 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
king_carlos wrote:The issue with Kruis and Launchbury starting with Itoje covering from the bench is the line-out. Whilst Toner gives up a fair bit around the park one thing he does offer is an outstanding line-out jumper and disrupter. Donnacha Ryan is strong here as well.

Around the park I'd hope for Launchbury and Kruis to dominate them around the park, this is an area where I feel England could gain a key pack ascendancy. It would be a bold call from Jones to leave his line-out one injury to Kruis away from bare thin jumpers and callers though.
I would play Itoje in place of Robshaw to boost the lineout. It will not happen because given the squad Jones has chosen that would mean playing Robshaw from the bench and to think of player less suited to be an impact player would be difficult.

It's just a training squad he was retained for the rest week. After this round of AP games he could recall guys from the EPS if he wants.

I'd be surprised if he goes in with the 6/2 bench split against Ireland so I reckon the squad may change slightly. The starting XV with likely stay the same but for Launchbury coming in and possible changes again at LH and SH. Jones seems to view Marler/Mako and Care/Youngs very evenly so he may rotate them depending on the opposition and game plan.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:38 am

Itoje, Kruis and Launchberry as the three locks is gifting Ireland lineout domination. None of them are specialist, Kruis is good but calls indifferently, neither Itoje or Launchbury are good and none of the back row likely to feature are lineout players. Even if you say Kruis is a specialist, he is the only one. Toner jumps in front of him and we are bu&&ered.

Maddness if we do as the lineout has become the most important set piece of the game given the number of lineouts there are compared to scrums.

by king_carlos Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:50 am

I'd say it's harsh to state that Kruis calls indifferently WPI. He's been very good doing it for Sarries all season, for England he was good against Scotland then poor against Italy. One poor game doesn't make him an indifferent caller IMO.

Hartley's throwing was poor on a few occasion in Rome but I wouldn't be worried about his throwing heading into the next game.

I'd agree that Toner makes the line-out that Borthwick wants to run more difficult though. 'Throw the majority of your ball to one jumper in the middle and nail your basics' is the basis that most of the best line-outs currently going are built on so I'm very pleased to see us moving towards that. The struggles in Rome showed that it's a system most our forwards are new too however and Toner is one of the best for pouncing on small errors in the line-out.

That said I think that starting Lawes over Launchbury would surrender some of the dominance I want our locks to have around the park. Similarly Lawes on the bench doesn't add the same physicality and fight around the fringes that Jones seems to be looking for from his tight 5.

by jamesandimac Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:18 pm

I think Jones has to go back to the having a 5 - 3 split on the bench for Ireland meaning having 3 second rows in the squad; Launchbury and Kruis starting with Lawes on the bench. The only issue I have with this is I would like to see Itoje get gametime too but I would not have him and Lawes on the bench as it lacks cover elsewhere. So the only way I can see it happening is if he starts Itoje ahead of Robshaw which I can't see happening given the recent comments by Jones saying Robshaw played his best game for England against Italy.

There are merits to having Itoje at 6, and I know people have said he is a stronger carrier, better at the breakdown, better lineout option, more forceful in the tackle, etc, etc, but does he have the same work rate as Robshaw? Not engine, because you can see that Itoje is an athlete, but does he have the mental workrate that Robshaw does? I think thats what is stopping his starting at the moment.

by yappysnap Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:04 am

Don't kick the ball off the pitch, run it or kick deep. If they kick it off then take a quick one or throw to the front.

Ireland have looked slow and old, if we go into the game with the mindset to make them play high tempo low error rugby we'll win. If we pick a pack to try to out set piece them, especially in the lineouts then we're playing into their hands.

Back our strengths don't panic over theirs.

by lostinwales Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:33 am

I am not worried that Ireland will score tries, because I think our defense is strong enough to stop them.

I am worried about our ability to score tries against them because we have found their defense hard to break down in the past.

I am also worried that our ability to give away stupid penalties will provide them with easy points.

I believe we could potentially be stuck in a low scoring game where a couple of random mistakes or referee decisions will be the difference, and on previous experience we are more likely to make the mistakes or get on the wrong side of the referee.

We did win in Dublin in the RWC warm ups which is better than the alternative, but it should not have much if any bearing on what will happen in a week's time. I am hopeful rather than confident at the moment.

by cb Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:46 am

Old gripe, but I would like to see some grunt in the second row and for me Kruis and Lawes do not give that. I see Kruis and Launchbury having more ballast and if Otoje was at 6, that would give an additional line-out option. But brave call to start with these.

Robshaw/Haskell together is not really a long-term option but they have worked so far.

by gregortree Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:15 pm

lostinwales wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
demosthenes wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Toner seems to be able to wreck mauls at will at the moment.

Anyone can if the referees allow it!

Toner always seems to be within the law. Being 7ft, a likewise wingspan no doubt and 20st helps mind.

he just looks all wrong though

Hovering allowed ?

by majesticimperialman Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:19 pm

If any changes are to be made. Would like to see Hill starting and Haskell on the bench.

by BamBam Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:09 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:If any changes are to be made. Would like to see Hill starting and Haskell on the bench.

Really? Cole had the best game he's had in a while against Italy at the set piece, and you want to drop him against the in form McGrath? Think that would be a big error

by beshocked Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:11 pm

lostinwales France beat Ireland because they weathered the Irish storm in the first half, left Ireland battered and bruised then got over the line in the 2nd half.

Not really that different from England vs Italy except for of course the scoreline - England weathered the Italian storm for 50 minutes, Italy were then hit hard by the intercept. England then smashed a demoralised and battered Italy.

Both the French and English gameplans were based on wearing out the opposition physically.

The difference is that Ireland are a better side than Italy and there is no guarantee Ireland will be as wasteful as they were vs France. Though saying that every side has looked more organised than France. I still don't know how Ireland didn't build a bigger 1st half lead vs France.

Yappysnap the current set up doesn't suggest that Eddie Jones will adopt a high tempo approach. In the last 30 perhaps but not for the first 50.

Ireland like the choke tackle and up and unders, could cause England a lot of problems.

I do believe England can attack the Irish lineout, Best has his wobbles himself so I don't think it's clearcut as Irish lineout = good, English lineout = bad.

England just need to play intelligently. That means don't allow Irish players to isolate Billy, get the kicking right, don't give brainless penalties, protect the ball and put pressure on the Irish players.

Let the bench up the tempo.

by majesticimperialman Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:14 pm

BamBam wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:If any changes are to be made. Would like to see Hill starting and Haskell on the bench.

Really? Cole had the best game he's had in a while against Italy at the set piece, and you want to drop him against the in form McGrath? Think that would be a big error

OOPS

sorry my mistake. I meant would like to see Clfford starting and Haskell on the bench. Doh

by little_badger Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:58 pm

Personally I want Goode off the bench with Daly to replace him and someone who can cover 12. But since that won't happen I'll settle for. 21 Youngs, 22. Devoto and 23. Goode.

I would also be happy with Itoje covering lock/6 on the bench and Clifford the other replacement.

I just don't believe that with Borthwick as the coach our lineout will be bad! Kruis and Launchbury are good international second rows, they will be able to run a lineout and with an extra weeks practise I really don't think it will be an issue.

Ending pack of:

17. Mako
16. George
18. Brookes
4. Launchbury/19. Itoje
5. Kruis
6 Robshaw/19.Itoje
20. Clifford
8. Billy

Looks the business, I would not want to face that!

by Pot Hale Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:58 am

I wonder who Ireland might field for this match.

Rory Best since he's the captain.
Jack McGrath to start at loosehead presumably and Healy getting more gamete with Leinster this weekend for the bench.
Nathan White seems to be the only starting option for Schmidt at tighthead, with Furlong on the bench. Given scrum performance in previous two matches, this does not bode well for this next match.
McCarthy is out, so presumably Ryan is next off the rank and perhaps Ultan Dillane given a shot on the bench.
O'Brien out so O'Donnell in at 7, Stander at 6 and Heaslip at 8. Ruddock on the bench.
Murray and Reddan - maybe Marmion gets another chance to test the wood quality.
Hopefully, Sexton will still be recovering and Jackson/Madigan in his stead.
Payne is also possibly out, so Henshaw and Mccluskey in midfield.
D Kearney is out, so possibly Zebo and Trimble.
Or maybe Zebo at 15, and Gilroy and Trimble.

Hopefully keep England to within 5-20 points at halftime and roll on the good ship Schmidt.

by yappysnap Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:48 am

Ireland have had a few bad injuries now so it's going to be even harder for them now.

I feel confident for this England side. I think we'll bully a win out of Ireland, may not be pretty but it'll be pretty effective.

by lostinwales Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:58 am

SareLand FTW.

by Pot Hale Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:46 am

lostinwales wrote:SareLand FTW.

Explain?

by majesticimperialman Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:59 am

Pot Hale wrote:
lostinwales wrote:SareLand FTW.

Explain?

What the hell does that mean?

by Cowshot Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:01 am

My guess: liw thinks the England team is too based on Sarries?

by lostinwales Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:14 pm

well the alternative was Engercens and both are pretty stupid

I do think there are similarities, in that we may well end up playing a lot of games where the opposition play badly somehow

by Cumbrian Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:04 pm

Ireland have got a horrendous injury list, we've got to be looking for the win in this game. I am not trying to be dismissive, Ireland will be dangerous. But considering their injuries and the fact we are at home for the first time since the World Cup debacle, we've got to win.

The key, as ever, is the breakdown. If we can gain parity at the breakdown we should win, if not it will be a straggly and frustrating afternoon.

by majesticimperialman Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:28 pm

Cowshot wrote:My guess: liw thinks the England team is too based on Sarries?

If you go back to 2000/2003 most of the England team was biased towards Tigers, Wasp,, and the odd glouseter player.

It seemed that if you played for any other team, you had no chance of playing for England.

by yappysnap Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:56 am

Cumbrian wrote:Ireland have got a horrendous injury list, we've got to be looking for the win in this game. I am not trying to be dismissive, Ireland will be dangerous. But considering their injuries and the fact we are at home for the first time since the World Cup debacle, we've got to win.

The key, as ever, is the breakdown. If we can gain parity at the breakdown we should win, if not it will be a straggly and frustrating afternoon.

It's interesting that for the last few seasons Ireland have been insanely physical and aggressive against England and that's often shocked us.

But this season so far they've looked old and unfit. Is it a ploy? Are they building towards this performance? Will they be the lunatics we remember? I hope not.

by Cowshot Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:23 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
Cowshot wrote:My guess: liw thinks the England team is too based on Sarries?

If you go back to 2000/2003 most of the England team was biased towards Tigers, Wasp,, and the odd glouseter player.

It seemed that if you played for any other team, you had no chance of playing for England.

True. Mind you these days I don't feel we need to look further than the Midlands for an England team. Cool

(It is possible that this is mostly about winding up my Quins friends... Whistle

)

by DirtyRucker7 Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:11 am

Chatting to steady Eddie yesterday and he talked about Itoje being captain for us come next world cup because the Lions selectors have suggested to Eddie that Itoje will be Lions captain next year, so he will start against Ireland in his build up to better things than hammering the Irish at twickers.
Also Ford and Care will start and do to Ireland what Argentina did in the world cup, play all black rugby! they can't live with the pace.

On a side note Eddie said Mallinder will be touring this summer as the number 12 because his long strides would be to much for the fragile Aussie defence, then with Lawes and Itoje in he pack and a fair ref the Aussie pack is in for a beasting.

by DirtyRucker7 Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:13 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
Cowshot wrote:My guess: liw thinks the England team is too based on Sarries?

If you go back to 2000/2003 most of the England team was biased towards Tigers, Wasp,, and the odd glouseter player.

It seemed that if you played for any other team, you had no chance of playing for England.

which teams dominated the seelction before the year 2000?

by Cowshot Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:17 am

Ah. You. Bye.

by lostinwales Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:18 am

Starting to find the DR posts funny

by majesticimperialman Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:01 am

Just how bad are Ireland injuries?

And will those injuries have a (HUGE) Impact on Ireland?s performance.

I am not saying that the game is in the bag for England. But the way some people are talking, it is as if England are garunteed too win.

And regards to Ireland v England game's their is no such thing as a dead cert for either team.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:46 pm

I see Devoto was taken off for hia yesterday. If he's not fit for next Saturday will Eddy stick with the 6/2 split on the bench like last week?

by **Notch** Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:21 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Just how bad are Ireland injuries?

And will those injuries have a (HUGE) Impact on Ireland?s performance.

I am not saying that the game is in the bag for England. But the way some people are talking, it is as if England are garunteed too win.

And regards to Ireland v England game's their is no such thing as a dead cert for either team.

I think this one is because the injuries are concentrated in the tight five, and the recent games between Ireland and England have been so close that one team having a big advantage in the scrums will probably swing it. The English pack often manage to win the battle up front against us at the best of times and I just can't see them failing to dominate against this team. The weakness of our tight five is the difference between the years when we've played average but ground out wins over Wales and France and this year.

Our only ray of light is a possible recall for Mike Ross!

by eirebilly Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:19 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Just how bad are Ireland injuries?

And will those injuries have a (HUGE) Impact on Ireland?s performance.

I am not saying that the game is in the bag for England. But the way some people are talking, it is as if England are garunteed too win.

And regards to Ireland v England game's their is no such thing as a dead cert for either team.

The injuries to the tight 5 are going to have an impact against a very strong England team but that should not be an excuse. Ireland are underperforming due to selection policies (positional and form) and the game plan designed by Schmidt to counter other teams rather than play to Irelands strengths. That to me is a bigger issue than the injuries.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:16 pm

Notch wrote:Our only ray of light is a possible recall for Mike Ross!

I thought Ross's form had dropped off a cliff.

by **Notch** Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:09 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Notch wrote:Our only ray of light is a possible recall for Mike Ross!

I thought Ross's form had dropped off a cliff.

It had been poor- he's 36 and he's had a lot of injuries this season. That I'm calling for him to come back just about sums up my view on how the scrum is going to go. White is unexceptional at this level and Furlong is still a pup in front row terms who is on a massive learning curve. At least someone who has done it in the past might get back to doing it again.

Apparently he was very good against Cardiff, but they wouldn't be a noted scrummaging team. An England pack at Twickenham is a different beast really.

by DirtyRucker7 Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:39 am

The boys to cream them by 40, as Kruis said we have a pack that all nations fear.
I'm not a religious man but by Joe i will be praying hard for the Irish,they will all come out of this in a psychiatrist chair i could see the IRFU questioning their place in the RBS Six Nations after this mauling.

by Pot Hale Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:16 am

DirtyRucker7 wrote:The boys to cream them by 40, as Kruis said we have a pack that all nations fear.
I'm not a religious man but by Joe i will be praying hard for the Irish,they will all come out of this in a psychiatrist chair i could see the IRFU questioning their place in the RBS Six Nations after this mauling.

I think it's the mushrooms in your morning fry-up.

Check where they come from.

by SimonofSurrey Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:25 am

Cowshot wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
Cowshot wrote:My guess: liw thinks the England team is too based on Sarries?

If you go back to 2000/2003 most of the England team was biased towards Tigers, Wasp,, and the odd glouseter player.

It seemed that if you played for any other team, you had no chance of playing for England.

True. Mind you these days I don't feel we need to look further than the Midlands for an England team.

(It is possible that this is mostly about winding up my Quins friends... )

As I recall, key players of England teams of that era generally included Leonard, Thompson, Hill, Dawson, Wilkinson, Cohen, Greenwood and Robinson: a more than decent smidge of non-Wasps/Tigers/Glaws.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:17 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
Cowshot wrote:My guess: liw thinks the England team is too based on Sarries?

If you go back to 2000/2003 most of the England team was biased towards Tigers, Wasp,, and the odd glouseter player.

It seemed that if you played for any other team, you had no chance of playing for England.

Leonard, Thomson, Hill, Dawson, Wilkinson, Greenwood, Tindall, Cohen, Robinson, Catt, Bracken, Balshaw, Hodgson, Gommersall. All in the Rwc03 squad, not from those clubs.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:13 am

Devoto & Beaumont out of contention for Ireland. Beaumont probably out for the rest of the 6N. Burrell has joined the camp.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/feb/21/ollie-devoto-josh-beaumont-england-ireland-six-nations

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