IRFU Investment into Its Branches

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"He puts the pudding on the table for slicing. “Let’s say a province is spending around €12m per annum. It’s P&L (profit and loss) comes from gates of, say €6-7m, there’s expenditure of around €12m which requires a subsidy from the IRFU of around €6-7m. They are rough figures, but we are subsiding the provinces to that tune each year."

"We put money in to each province in terms of players and technical staff. The Union is putting in at least 50% in terms of turnover into each of the provinces.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/philip-browne-interview-trying-to-spread-the-jam-evenly-387047.html

There we are then. That's that one put to bed. €25-28m spent each year on top of home grown income.

bumble wrote:There was talk of the Newport Gwent Dragons not even reaching their agreed minimum spend on their squad, so I'm not sure all pro12 teams spend the same.

Broadly similar. Up till 3 years ago the scots teams were the poor relations - smaller budgets even than treviso. Definitely smaller than the welsh. they have caught up now. From what I know I would think the difference between the least and greatest is no more than around 25%. What is certain is the welsh sit nicely in the middle . Not the top spending, not the poorest.

What is also certain is that this constant cry of " its not fair, the irish have more money" is twaddle and also that the richest teams don't always win.

They kinda do though, Glasgow's increase in budget has coincided with them winning the league.  When the ospreys were winning league titles we had one of the biggest budgets in the pro12 now we don't, we don't compete.  Toulon won three European titles in a row and it wasn't because of their superb academy. we all lose international players during international season, the teams with biggest budgets have bigger squads so enable them to stay competitive whereas those with smaller budgets play kids and slide down the table

The thing is no one has ever claimed money doesn't help you win things. It does. Very rarely is money not a factor (maybe Leicester city in this year's football is a one off)
But that's not what our good friend phill is insinuating, he believes that the Irish teams don't deserve any success as the money has come from the union not private investment, so therefore there is no risk,so it's undeserved.
No matter how many times it's pointed out that the money received from the union has to pay for all rugby in that province, from the most armature to professional and everything inbetween, he still calls foul, and unjust, and wha wha wha that's why his team is not winning,and he still believes the PRL is going to ride to his rescue (but that's a whole other comedy goldmine)

So yes money helps,of course it does, but having competent people in charge of that money helps a lot more.
And Phil's just getting abit boring now

True Raven wrote:They kinda do though, Glasgow's increase in budget has coincided with them winning the league.  When the ospreys were winning league titles we had one of the biggest budgets in the pro12 now we don't, we don't compete.  Toulon won three European titles in a row and it wasn't because of their superb academy. we all lose international players during international season, the teams with biggest budgets have bigger squads so enable them to stay competitive whereas those with smaller budgets play kids and slide down the table

Glasgow are still surely only mid table spenders tho. 5 million ish total budget ( including all players, backroom staff, costs, etc etc) compared to the welsh teams who have 3.5 million just for the playing staff plus whatever extra is paid to players on central contracts. Glasgow have played youth players semi pro players last season during the internationals IIRC. Hard to tell for sure but not really much in it as regards the actual amounts spent on players

They won because of good coaching and team ethic - and spending money wisely. Not because they are the richest

True Raven wrote:They kinda do though, Glasgow's increase in budget has coincided with them winning the league.  When the ospreys were winning league titles we had one of the biggest budgets in the pro12 now we don't, we don't compete.  Toulon won three European titles in a row and it wasn't because of their superb academy. we all lose international players during international season, the teams with biggest budgets have bigger squads so enable them to stay competitive whereas those with smaller budgets play kids and slide down the table

Thats not really true for Munster, Leinster and Ulster though. Connacht can sign who they want due to them getting special dispensation from the IRFU, but if we at Ulster want to sign a player who is not eligible for Ireland the IRFU has to give us permission and can veto the transfer. They limit the number of capped foreign players on to four but we have successfully negotiated the ability to have five NIQ players next season. So having money doesn't give you squad depth at all; it gives you several marquee players if you can afford them. And the best of those may well be away in international windows themselves, like Pienaar is and Coetzee probably will be. Don't get me wrong, thats a massive boon to any team but it really does not help with squad depth which is what you allege. 4 or 5 players do not carry a squad of 23 players on their shoulders. They contribute but you are still very beatable.

To get players in to add squad depth, they have to be Irish qualified and there are as many duds as hits. We've maybe only once brought in a guy with Irish grandparents who was actually international class at Ulster- most are barely Pro12 class and sink without a trace, but we have to keep raking through the muck in the off chance of finding a few pearls. Otherwise they have to come through the Academy and be homegrown, and really thats the only true way for a provincial team to succeed in the structure we have. You can't buy your way to the top. You have to produce the players yourself, and retain them yourself. The money helps with the second more than the first- investing in the Academy and the grassroots is great but it can take a generation to bear fruit.

You can't compare an Irish team to Toulon because even if we had the amount of money that Toulon have- we would still be playing kids in the international window! Why do you think Leinster are so consistent in the league? They are habitually putting out squads that feature double digit numbers of homegrown Academy graduates. It's not the money that sets them apart. It's not money that wins them titles. It's coaching and development, because the entire Irish system is designed with that as a priority.

Wheras the scots teams simply cannot afford players like Pinaar or other world stars!

TJ wrote:Wheras the scots teams simply cannot afford players like Pinaar or other world stars!

And which of the Provinces is top of the table?

Notch wrote:

True Raven wrote:They kinda do though, Glasgow's increase in budget has coincided with them winning the league.  When the ospreys were winning league titles we had one of the biggest budgets in the pro12 now we don't, we don't compete.  Toulon won three European titles in a row and it wasn't because of their superb academy. we all lose international players during international season, the teams with biggest budgets have bigger squads so enable them to stay competitive whereas those with smaller budgets play kids and slide down the table

Thats not really true for Munster, Leinster and Ulster though. Connacht can sign who they want due to them getting special dispensation from the IRFU, but if we at Ulster want to sign a player who is not eligible for Ireland the IRFU has to give us permission and can veto the transfer. They limit the number of capped foreign players on to four but we have successfully negotiated the ability to have five NIQ players next season. So having money doesn't give you squad depth at all; it gives you several marquee players if you can afford them. And the best of those may well be away in international windows themselves, like Pienaar is and Coetzee probably will be. Don't get me wrong, thats a massive boon to any team but it really does not help with squad depth which is what you allege. 4 or 5 players do not carry a squad of 23 players on their shoulders. They contribute but you are still very beatable.

To get players in to add squad depth, they have to be Irish qualified and there are as many duds as hits. We've maybe only once brought in a guy with Irish grandparents who was actually international class at Ulster- most are barely Pro12 class and sink without a trace, but we have to keep raking through the muck in the off chance of finding a few pearls. Otherwise they have to come through the Academy and be homegrown, and really thats the only true way for a provincial team to succeed in the structure we have. You can't buy your way to the top. You have to produce the players yourself, and retain them yourself. The money helps with the second more than the first- investing in the Academy and the grassroots is great but it can take a generation to bear fruit.

You can't compare an Irish team to Toulon because even if we had the amount of money that Toulon have- we would still be playing kids in the international window! Why do you think Leinster are so consistent in the league? They are habitually putting out squads that feature double digit numbers of homegrown Academy graduates. It's not the money that sets them apart. It's not money that wins them titles. It's coaching and development, because the entire Irish system is designed with that as a priority.

I wasn't comparing Toulon to the Irish teams, I was picking up on TJ point that the richest teams don't always win.

You've already alluded to the point how a larger budget helps you become successful because it allows you to retain your players by offering them a competitive salary, something which hasn't happened in Wales. With NDC in place now this is changing, well for the Ospreys at least. If we had the budget available to the Irish teams then we may have been able to have kept Hibbard, Ian Evans, hook, Fotuaili, who would have helped enormously during international windows.

I'm not knocking other teams for having more resources available to them, fair play to them, just the teams with the money tend to be the more successful

True Raven wrote:
You've  already alluded to the point how a larger budget helps you become successful because it allows you to retain your players by offering them a competitive salary, something which hasn't happened in Wales.   With NDC in place now this is changing, well for the Ospreys at least.  If we had the budget available to the Irish teams then we may have been able to have kept Hibbard, Ian Evans, hook, Fotuaili, who would have helped enormously during international windows.

I'm not knocking other teams for having more resources available to them, fair play to them, just the teams with the money tend to be the more successful

Hibbard went to Gloucester who were splashing the cash from the BT deal, Evans left to go to Toulon but when that went through went to Bristol who again were splashing the cash and Hook went to France the wages the Irish provinces can't match.

Guys like Sexton and Heaslip are receiving extra income from commercial deals to stay in Ireland to top up their wages, Pienaar was offered more money to go to Toulon but stayed for family reasons, Teo'o is leaving Leinster for a team towards the bottom of the AP and Munster lost Dougall and Butler to Pau a newly promoted team.

So the idea that having the Irish resources would mean the Regions could keep hold of players is misplaced

They don't have more resouces tho - thats the point! Gloasgow did not buy their way to success. they built their way to success on a very similar budget to the welsh teams. NOt spending all their money on a few established stars. Indeed Glasgow lost a bunch of their winning team. What Glasgow did was bought well - DTH from a semi pro team. Matawalo it was his first pro contract for example. Many of their players are home grown and still very young. I expect some to become stars and move on. I bet there is much higher saleries for some of the welsh players than any of the scots as the welsh guys are experienced internationals at the top of their careers, the scots are newbs at the beggining of theirs.

marty2086 wrote:

True Raven wrote:
You've  already alluded to the point how a larger budget helps you become successful because it allows you to retain your players by offering them a competitive salary, something which hasn't happened in Wales.   With NDC in place now this is changing, well for the Ospreys at least.  If we had the budget available to the Irish teams then we may have been able to have kept Hibbard, Ian Evans, hook, Fotuaili, who would have helped enormously during international windows.

I'm not knocking other teams for having more resources available to them, fair play to them, just the teams with the money tend to be the more successful

Hibbard went to Gloucester who were splashing the cash from the BT deal, Evans left to go to Toulon but when that went through went to Bristol who again were splashing the cash and Hook went to France the wages the Irish provinces can't match.

Guys like Sexton and Heaslip are receiving extra income from commercial deals to stay in Ireland to top up their wages, Pienaar was offered more money to go to Toulon but stayed for family reasons, Teo'o is leaving Leinster for a team towards the bottom of the AP and Munster lost Dougall and Butler to Pau a newly promoted team.

So the idea that having the Irish resources would mean the Regions could keep hold of players is misplaced

 I've read this thread along with the numerous others and I still have no idea what Phill and co are complaining about...what exactly is the excuse now? Yes we can match French and English wages. (which was confirmed by Munster's CEO) I'm sick of hearing how the Irish provinces can't match certain teams, why do we have to be ashamed of having wealthy teams? just because of couple of welsh posters are jealous? SOB, Heaslip and Sexton are all; or at least were until very recently in the top 20 highest paid players in Europe. There is no fear of us losing our first choice players anytime soon, even to Toulon. The IRFU have managed finances very well and we are still bearing the fruits of that. I don't know why people are debating this article because to me this is just good news.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't know why people are debating this article because to me this is just good news.

Swarmers gonna swarm

And trolls gonna troll.

EDIT: Thought I should add that the 'troll' comment isn't directed at you

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

True Raven wrote:
You've  already alluded to the point how a larger budget helps you become successful because it allows you to retain your players by offering them a competitive salary, something which hasn't happened in Wales.   With NDC in place now this is changing, well for the Ospreys at least.  If we had the budget available to the Irish teams then we may have been able to have kept Hibbard, Ian Evans, hook, Fotuaili, who would have helped enormously during international windows.

I'm not knocking other teams for having more resources available to them, fair play to them, just the teams with the money tend to be the more successful

Hibbard went to Gloucester who were splashing the cash from the BT deal, Evans left to go to Toulon but when that went through went to Bristol who again were splashing the cash and Hook went to France the wages the Irish provinces can't match.

Guys like Sexton and Heaslip are receiving extra income from commercial deals to stay in Ireland to top up their wages, Pienaar was offered more money to go to Toulon but stayed for family reasons, Teo'o is leaving Leinster for a team towards the bottom of the AP and Munster lost Dougall and Butler to Pau a newly promoted team.

So the idea that having the Irish resources would mean the Regions could keep hold of players is misplaced

 I've read this thread along with the numerous others and I still have no idea what Phill and co are complaining about...what exactly is the excuse now? Yes we can match French and English wages. (which was confirmed by Munster's CEO) I'm sick of hearing how the Irish provinces can't match certain teams, why do we have to be ashamed of having wealthy teams? just because of couple of welsh posters are jealous? SOB, Heaslip and Sexton are all; or at least were until very recently in the top 20 highest paid players in Europe; there is no fear of us losing our first choice players anytime soon, even to Toulon. The IRFU have managed finances very well and we are still bearing the fruits of that. I don't know why people are debating this article because to me this is just good news.

I think the IRFU have done a great job in managing the finances, to date, although the Provinces have to do their bit as well. There's no chance we can compete with the French though. Although we are matching the English, the recent raise in their salary cap, and the fact that some clubs chose other means to top up the wage, probably means we are falling behind. At least some of their clubs anyway and, as the rich get richer, competing at the top level will become increasingly difficult.

P.s I'm certainly not one who feels the need to defend the fact that we have healthier finances than the Regions, but it is fun ..... when I'm bored.

Munchkin wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

True Raven wrote:
You've  already alluded to the point how a larger budget helps you become successful because it allows you to retain your players by offering them a competitive salary, something which hasn't happened in Wales.   With NDC in place now this is changing, well for the Ospreys at least.  If we had the budget available to the Irish teams then we may have been able to have kept Hibbard, Ian Evans, hook, Fotuaili, who would have helped enormously during international windows.

I'm not knocking other teams for having more resources available to them, fair play to them, just the teams with the money tend to be the more successful

Hibbard went to Gloucester who were splashing the cash from the BT deal, Evans left to go to Toulon but when that went through went to Bristol who again were splashing the cash and Hook went to France the wages the Irish provinces can't match.

Guys like Sexton and Heaslip are receiving extra income from commercial deals to stay in Ireland to top up their wages, Pienaar was offered more money to go to Toulon but stayed for family reasons, Teo'o is leaving Leinster for a team towards the bottom of the AP and Munster lost Dougall and Butler to Pau a newly promoted team.

So the idea that having the Irish resources would mean the Regions could keep hold of players is misplaced

 I've read this thread along with the numerous others and I still have no idea what Phill and co are complaining about...what exactly is the excuse now? Yes we can match French and English wages. (which was confirmed by Munster's CEO) I'm sick of hearing how the Irish provinces can't match certain teams, why do we have to be ashamed of having wealthy teams? just because of couple of welsh posters are jealous? SOB, Heaslip and Sexton are all; or at least were until very recently in the top 20 highest paid players in Europe; there is no fear of us losing our first choice players anytime soon, even to Toulon. The IRFU have managed finances very well and we are still bearing the fruits of that. I don't know why people are debating this article because to me this is just good news.

I think the IRFU have done a great job in managing the finances, to date, although the Provinces have to do their bit as well. There's no chance we can compete with the French though. Although we are matching the English, the recent raise in their salary cap, and the fact that some clubs chose other means to top up the wage, probably means we are falling behind. At least some of their clubs anyway, and as the rich get richer, competing at the top level will become increasingly difficult.

What do you mean by can't compete with the French though? We aren't losing our Irish stars and the last time I checked Ulster are ready to bring in Piutau and Coetzee for next season. Leinster brought in Douglas on big money, which was a huge signing at the time but it didn't work out; it happens. Munster got Saili and wanted Moore and Vincent Koch etc etc. We are certainly competing for players. I'm sorry but I'm going to take the words of the Munster CEO ahead of any poster on here, who said it was the IRFU stance on NIQ players holding the provinces back not the money.

Munchkin wrote:And trolls gonna troll.

EDIT: Thought I should add that the 'troll' comment isn't directed at you

I know. Just a rubbish joke on my part anyway

RiscaGame wrote:

Munchkin wrote:And trolls gonna troll.

EDIT: Thought I should add that the 'troll' comment isn't directed at you

I know. Just a rubbish joke on my part anyway

Your jokes are fine. Mine will take a lot of work

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

True Raven wrote:
You've  already alluded to the point how a larger budget helps you become successful because it allows you to retain your players by offering them a competitive salary, something which hasn't happened in Wales.   With NDC in place now this is changing, well for the Ospreys at least.  If we had the budget available to the Irish teams then we may have been able to have kept Hibbard, Ian Evans, hook, Fotuaili, who would have helped enormously during international windows.

I'm not knocking other teams for having more resources available to them, fair play to them, just the teams with the money tend to be the more successful

Hibbard went to Gloucester who were splashing the cash from the BT deal, Evans left to go to Toulon but when that went through went to Bristol who again were splashing the cash and Hook went to France the wages the Irish provinces can't match.

Guys like Sexton and Heaslip are receiving extra income from commercial deals to stay in Ireland to top up their wages, Pienaar was offered more money to go to Toulon but stayed for family reasons, Teo'o is leaving Leinster for a team towards the bottom of the AP and Munster lost Dougall and Butler to Pau a newly promoted team.

So the idea that having the Irish resources would mean the Regions could keep hold of players is misplaced

 I've read this thread along with the numerous others and I still have no idea what Phill and co are complaining about...what exactly is the excuse now? Yes we can match French and English wages. (which was confirmed by Munster's CEO) I'm sick of hearing how the Irish provinces can't match certain teams, why do we have to be ashamed of having wealthy teams? just because of couple of welsh posters are jealous? SOB, Heaslip and Sexton are all; or at least were until very recently in the top 20 highest paid players in Europe; there is no fear of us losing our first choice players anytime soon, even to Toulon. The IRFU have managed finances very well and we are still bearing the fruits of that. I don't know why people are debating this article because to me this is just good news.

I think the IRFU have done a great job in managing the finances, to date, although the Provinces have to do their bit as well. There's no chance we can compete with the French though. Although we are matching the English, the recent raise in their salary cap, and the fact that some clubs chose other means to top up the wage, probably means we are falling behind. At least some of their clubs anyway, and as the rich get richer, competing at the top level will become increasingly difficult.

What do you mean by can't compete with the French though? We aren't losing our Irish stars and the last time I checked Ulster are ready to bring in Piutau and Coetzee for next season. Leinster brought in Douglas on big money, which was a huge signing at the time but it didn't work out; it happens. Munster got Saili and wanted Moore and Vincent Koch etc etc. We are certainly competing for players. I'm sorry but I'm going to take the words of the Munster CEO ahead of any poster on here, who said it was the IRFU stance on NIQ players holding the provinces back not the money.

Fair question. In terms of finance we can't compete with the big French clubs. Yes, we do get to sign some big names, but then you look to the likes of Toulon and see the strength in depth they have. That's what money buys. Truth is, I don't want us to become a club like they are, and fully agree with the quota imposed by the IRFU on foreign imports, although I think it's also right that we do sign the few top quality players that we do.

I wouldn't take the word of the Munster CEO. The IRFU policy on NIQ is absolutely right, and it's not the policy itself that is at fault, but rather the lack of success, with some, in bringing through players via the Academies.

Notch wrote:

Thats not really true for Munster, Leinster and Ulster though. Connacht can sign who they want due to them getting special dispensation from the IRFU, but if we at Ulster want to sign a player who is not eligible for Ireland the IRFU has to give us permission and can veto the transfer. They limit the number of capped foreign players on to four but we have successfully negotiated the ability to have five NIQ players next season. So having money doesn't give you squad depth at all; it gives you several marquee players if you can afford them. And the best of those may well be away in international windows themselves, like Pienaar is and Coetzee probably will be.

Sorry Notch but have to take umbrage with this, it is not as simple as you are letting on. Connacht have 5 NIQ currently (six if you count Macginty), same number as Ulster, one more than Leinster, one less than Munster. Next season on current signings Ulster will have one more NIQ than Connacht. Lam has been working hard to sign real quality IQ players supplemented by canny imports (many of whom are project and soon to be eligible for Ireland I.e. hennan, McCartney). And we have to work for the diamonds as well as you do. For every bealham there is a pewhairangi, not difficult just for the big three. We are all working to the same goal.

Of the IRFU gave equal funding to Connacht we would be happy to play by the same rules we are already playing by. It might help to stop out players being pinched by provinces able to pay higher wages when the hard work of blooding the player is done.

And that's before we even start on Denis O Brien supplementing wages, which is a total fiasco.

Marshes wrote:

Notch wrote:

Thats not really true for Munster, Leinster and Ulster though. Connacht can sign who they want due to them getting special dispensation from the IRFU, but if we at Ulster want to sign a player who is not eligible for Ireland the IRFU has to give us permission and can veto the transfer. They limit the number of capped foreign players on to four but we have successfully negotiated the ability to have five NIQ players next season. So having money doesn't give you squad depth at all; it gives you several marquee players if you can afford them. And the best of those may well be away in international windows themselves, like Pienaar is and Coetzee probably will be.

Sorry Notch but have to take umbrage with this, it is not as simple as you are letting on. Connacht have 5 NIQ currently (six if you count Macginty), same number as Ulster, one more than Leinster, one less than Munster. Next season on current signings Ulster will have one more NIQ than Connacht. Lam has been working hard to sign real quality IQ players supplemented by canny imports (many of whom are project and soon to be eligible for Ireland I.e. hennan, McCartney). And we have to work for the diamonds as well as you do. For every bealham there is a pewhairangi, not difficult just for the big three. We are all working to the same goal.

Of the IRFU gave equal funding to Connacht we would be happy to play by the same rules we are already playing by. It might help to stop out players being pinched by provinces able to pay higher wages when the hard work of blooding the player is done.

And that's before we even start on Denis O Brien supplementing wages, which is a total fiasco.

I'm not saying any of that is untrue, in fact I think Connacht are a superbly run team. I'm just pointing out that the IRFU treats them differently, both in a very negative sense (unequal funding) and in a positive sense (less restrictive about NIQ players). It's not saying 'Oh, Connacht have it easy'. They actually have the worst deal and aren't treated fairly. I'm just pointing out that they are a special case and have to be talked about separately.

I think the gripe is, not so much how the Irish provinces get to spend, but the fact that the Irish provinces get to spend more than they would if they were not union controlled, I think I am explaining it right.

So they are being subsidised by the IRFU, if they could only spend what they generate, if they were privately owned businesses, like the Welsh regions are and do, then it would be a more level playing field, but the provinces get more because they get a share of what the national team makes as well. 

Trust me, I am trying my best to explain this, I hope I am coming across in a way that can be understood.

So because teams in the Pro12 are union controlled and have got access to more money than they can generate themselves then it is not fair on the teams that are privately owned and have to live within their means, because if they do not live within their means, they go bust, something that will never happen to union controlled teams.

This is where the even keel goes out of the window. Teams can spend beyond their means because they get looked after by the unions others cannot. The only way around this in the Pro12 would be to have a salary cap that is fair to ALL teams taking part. 

Now doubt I will get the bones picked out of this, and I will have people tar and feathering me for it again.

The Welsh Union does contribute to player salaries in some cases as well?

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh Union does contribute to player salaries in some cases as well?

I cannot believe I am having to explain this again, and to you again. The WRU pay for the use of the players that the regions produce. They pick a player and pay a % of his wage so that team Wales can have access to that player whenever they see fit, like the extra AI we always have. 

Lets not forget, the regions invest a lot of money into producing players for their region, why should team Wales then get access to these players for nothing whilst the regions still pay their wages ? In affect, the regions would be paying for their players to play for Wales, do you think that would be fair ?

I think the Welsh system is perfectly fair, but the Welsh clubs are given a leg up in being able to afford those players and have any access to them that's all. Otherwise it would be likely that English and French clubs would pay them more and they'd be abroad thats all.

Majority of English clubs obviously get money from the RFU as well for playing a certain number of English qualified players. No problem with any of it and you could say they are generating that themselves through the choices they've made in their playing staff I suppose.

LordDowlais wrote:I think the gripe is, not so much how the Irish provinces get to spend, but the fact that the Irish provinces get to spend more than they would if they were not union controlled, I think I am explaining it right.

So they are being subsidised by the IRFU, if they could only spend what they generate, if they were privately owned businesses, like the Welsh regions are and do, then it would be a more level playing field, but the provinces get more because they get a share of what the national team makes as well. 

Trust me, I am trying my best to explain this, I hope I am coming across in a way that can be understood.

So because teams in the Pro12 are union controlled and have got access to more money than they can generate themselves then it is not fair on the teams that are privately owned and have to live within their means, because if they do not live within their means, they go bust, something that will never happen to union controlled teams.

This is where the even keel goes out of the window. Teams can spend beyond their means because they get looked after by the unions others cannot. The only way around this in the Pro12 would be to have a salary cap that is fair to ALL teams taking part. 

Now doubt I will get the bones picked out of this, and I will have people tar and feathering me for it again.

I disagree with the argument, but this is as succinct, clear and even-handed a post as I have seen on this topic.

So don't take this as me jumping on you - I think that's a great post that has clarified more of the debate than many previous pages.

However, what cap would be universally fair? You want a cap to be fair to the Welsh teams- I understand that, and am certainly not against a cap in principle. If we made it £10 million, no team would come near it, and the playing field would not be levelled. What's the point of having a salary cap that is out of the reach of teams? However, if you chose half that, would it be fair on the Italians? If the cap is to actually make a level playing field that encourages a closer-fought league, then it has to make life easier for the Italians and, to a lesser degree, the Scots. As you said, "ALL teams taking part". So you would have a really low cap and the best players would go abroad again.

And If people were to take a "who cares about the Italians, they can fend for themselves" stance, they can't complain when other people take a similar stance to Welsh or Scottish teams being out-spent.

This is another issue though Don. 

I would say, take all the figures that every one individual team makes a season, find the average and set the cap to the average, the thing is we will never know this as Irish branches accounts are not as black and white as that for whatever reason. 

I think a fair cap would be to what MOST can afford. But because of the union run side of things we will never know this. This is where the gripe of it all comes into it.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh Union does contribute to player salaries in some cases as well?

I cannot believe I am having to explain this again, and to you again. The WRU pay for the use of the players that the regions produce. They pick a player and pay a % of his wage so that team Wales can have access to that player whenever they see fit, like the extra AI we always have. 

Lets not forget, the regions invest a lot of money into producing players for their region, why should team Wales then get access to these players for nothing whilst the regions still pay their wages ? In affect, the regions would be paying for their players to play for Wales, do you think that would be fair ?

So the WRU can't have as much access to a player who's not on a dual contract? Or can't request as much? Or don't have the same "rights", if you like, to a non-dual-contracted player?

Wales should get access to Welsh players because it's what the Welsh players want. They're not garden furniture. Not many players turn down opportunities to play for the national team, and not many players don't long for it or aspire to it. And if the regions tried to play hard-ball and seriously curtail WRU access to players, those players, off their own bat, would go abroad and just come back to play for Gatland.

Don Alfonso wrote:So the WRU can't have as much access to a player who's not on a dual contract? Or can't request as much? Or don't have the same "rights", if you like, to a non-dual-contracted player? 

Yes, I think that is correct. We get the exact same problems when trying to get access to players playing outside of Wales, during this very 6N we have had to give players back to their clubs. Team Wales are always trying to make deals with the clubs for players that team Wales want access to. Remember the farce with George North and the PRL fining Northampton ?

LordDowlais wrote:This is another issue though Don. 

I would say, take all the figures that every one individual team makes a season, find the average and set the cap to the average, the thing is we will never know this as Irish branches accounts are not as black and white as that for whatever reason. 

I think a fair cap would be to what MOST can afford. But because of the union run side of things we will never know this. This is where the gripe of it all comes into it.

Presumably if you did this, though, there would be a mass exodus from the best teams - and I'm including Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow in that. Results would be tighter, but the rugby would be poorer. Imagine you didn't take the Irish team's wage bill into consideration in the equation. (But they still had to abide by the new cap.) Fine. But you're telling Ospreys that, essentially, you're adding their wage bill to Zebre's wage bill, dividing by two, and they have to offload players until they get down to that limit. I know you're talking about an average across all teams, but the point is, Ospreys and Scarlets won't get to spend more - they'll get to spend less. The provinces will be in the same boat, but do you think that would make those regions any happier?

Don Alfonso wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:This is another issue though Don. 

I would say, take all the figures that every one individual team makes a season, find the average and set the cap to the average, the thing is we will never know this as Irish branches accounts are not as black and white as that for whatever reason. 

I think a fair cap would be to what MOST can afford. But because of the union run side of things we will never know this. This is where the gripe of it all comes into it.

Presumably if you did this, though, there would be a mass exodus from the best teams - and I'm including Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow in that. Results would be tighter, but the rugby would be poorer. Imagine you didn't take the Irish team's wage bill into consideration in the equation. (But they still had to abide by the new cap.) Fine. But you're telling Ospreys that, essentially, you're adding their wage bill to Zebre's wage bill, dividing by two, and they have to offload players until they get down to that limit. I know you're talking about an average across all teams, but the point is, Ospreys and Scarlets won't get to spend more - they'll get to spend less. The provinces will be in the same boat, but do you think that would make those regions any happier?

I would hazard a guess, but the amounts Ulster/Munster/Leinster could spend would take the average up. I do not think it would affect the Welsh regions as much as it would affect the Irish provinces, I would take a punt and say the average wage bill for the Pro12 based on what each team would generate would be about £6million ? The Irish Provinces are spending way above that with the money they get from the IRFU.

Would be good news for Aviva clubs.

Setting a Salary Cap at the average, whether mean or median, level is dumb. Those under will not spend more, those over have to cut players. Thus the average comes down and what happens next year - reduce the cap to the new average?

Now when it come to an average wage bill - what about the value of Dual Contracts? What about Central Contracts?

Rather than trying to handcuff another Union, how about solving your own issues. After all with a much bigger capacity - and playing more matches, shouldn't MS provide a larger income than the Aviva? Why s the total money available to Regions supposedly so much lower than to the provinces?

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:This is another issue though Don. 

I would say, take all the figures that every one individual team makes a season, find the average and set the cap to the average, the thing is we will never know this as Irish branches accounts are not as black and white as that for whatever reason. 

I think a fair cap would be to what MOST can afford. But because of the union run side of things we will never know this. This is where the gripe of it all comes into it.

Presumably if you did this, though, there would be a mass exodus from the best teams - and I'm including Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow in that. Results would be tighter, but the rugby would be poorer. Imagine you didn't take the Irish team's wage bill into consideration in the equation. (But they still had to abide by the new cap.) Fine. But you're telling Ospreys that, essentially, you're adding their wage bill to Zebre's wage bill, dividing by two, and they have to offload players until they get down to that limit. I know you're talking about an average across all teams, but the point is, Ospreys and Scarlets won't get to spend more - they'll get to spend less. The provinces will be in the same boat, but do you think that would make those regions any happier?

I would hazard a guess, but the amounts Ulster/Munster/Leinster could spend would take the average up. I do not think it would affect the Welsh regions as much as it would affect the Irish provinces, I would take a punt and say the average wage bill for the Pro12 based on what each team would generate would be about £6million ? The Irish Provinces are spending way above that with the money they get from the IRFU.

No, I completely accept it would affect the provinces more. But it would affect the regions as well. Not the Dragons, but certainly Ospreys, and I'd say possibly both of the other two. I don't know that they'd be keen to effectively shrink their teams, They wouldn't have as good players (or as many good players), or have the same cachet, and we'd all get our derrières handed to us in Europe. Do you think the Osprreys would think all that was worth it because the Irish would be in more trouble? I don;t think schadenfreude goes that far. We'd have a much worse, but more equal league, and we could all just forget about the Not The Heineken Cup.

My feeling is, as regards the richer regions, you're asking turkeys to vote for Christmas just because there are plumper, slower birds about.

As it stands, I have no problem at all with a salary cap - I just don't think it's as simple as simply introducing it. And, although we are fine, honest salt-of-the-earth-none-better folk, I'd imagine the IRFU would find a way around it. You'd need rules to stop the IRFU paying entirely for Heaslip, have him contracted completely to the central body, and then "asking" him to go and play for Leinster between internationals. Just, y'know, to keep his hand in. He wouldn't turn up on the Leinster wage bill, and the IRFU could make an unarguable case that a player can't simply play in ten internationals a year. And if they're paying for him, whose business is it what they ask him to do. Pure conjecture, hypothetical silliness. But a salary cap won't simply make the provinces the same as for-profit businesses like the regions, and - to be clear - we don;t want them to be.

As an aside, the provinces have been around since the 1800s - we didn't simply choose a sneaky model that allows us to play with accounting ledgers so we'd be good at the Pro12. Other countries can set up their international/domestic rugby system whatever way they want - that's up to them. It's frustrating as an Irish fan to see fans of teams less than twenty years old complain and ask why we're allowed away with our 150+ year-old model, when they've set theirs up in a less efficient, internally conflict-ridden model. TO BE CLEAR - I offer that as an observation as I am enjoying what I feel is a mature discussion about this, without name-calling or hysterics on anyone's part, and that observation is not spurred by any perceived problem in any of your posts. I am not to being defensive, just putting across my own point of view for consideration.

LordDowlais wrote:


I would hazard a guess, but the amounts Ulster/Munster/Leinster could spend would take the average up. I do not think it would affect the Welsh regions as much as it would affect the Irish provinces, I would take a punt and say the average wage bill for the Pro12 based on what each team would generate would be about £6million ? The Irish Provinces are spending way above that with the money they get from the IRFU.

Well if the average spend is 6 million the two scots clubs are well below that! As has been explained many times tho we are not comparing like with like. Welsh teams have a senior playing staff budget of 3.5 million plus the parts of the wages paid centrally. The two scots teams have a TOTAL budget of around 5 million so the actual spend on senior players will be roughly similar. Neither do I think the Irish have a significant financial advantage - remember all unions have the same income sources so very similar amounts of money in total to spend. Plus the welsh have the ability to deficit fund which the irish and scots do not have

Its a total red herring. The welsh regions are not underfunded by any rational analysis. They simply are poorly organised and spend too much on a small group of senior players I bet there are a dozen players in the welsh set up earning more than the best players in Scotland.

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:This is another issue though Don. 

I would say, take all the figures that every one individual team makes a season, find the average and set the cap to the average, the thing is we will never know this as Irish branches accounts are not as black and white as that for whatever reason. 

I think a fair cap would be to what MOST can afford. But because of the union run side of things we will never know this. This is where the gripe of it all comes into it.

Presumably if you did this, though, there would be a mass exodus from the best teams - and I'm including Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow in that. Results would be tighter, but the rugby would be poorer. Imagine you didn't take the Irish team's wage bill into consideration in the equation. (But they still had to abide by the new cap.) Fine. But you're telling Ospreys that, essentially, you're adding their wage bill to Zebre's wage bill, dividing by two, and they have to offload players until they get down to that limit. I know you're talking about an average across all teams, but the point is, Ospreys and Scarlets won't get to spend more - they'll get to spend less. The provinces will be in the same boat, but do you think that would make those regions any happier?

I would hazard a guess, but the amounts Ulster/Munster/Leinster could spend would take the average up. I do not think it would affect the Welsh regions as much as it would affect the Irish provinces, I would take a punt and say the average wage bill for the Pro12 based on what each team would generate would be about £6million ? The Irish Provinces are spending way above that with the money they get from the IRFU.

The IRFU give and the IRFU take away.
Provinces do not get any money from any of the competitions they are involved in or any of the media money either. No merit payments for making knock-out stages of competition and when it gets to home knock-out stages, the IRFU take half the gate. A few years ago, Leinster had a home Game v Leicester in H Cup in Aviva. Leicester Made more money out of it than Leinster.

The. IRFU earn around 10m euro from the Provinces which is about 2.5m each that can be substrated from the Provinces grant from IRFU.

Sin é wrote:
The IRFU give and the IRFU take away.
Provinces do not get any money from any of the competitions they are involved in or any of the media money either. No merit payments for making knock-out stages of competition and when it gets to home knock-out stages, the IRFU take half the gate. A few years ago, Leinster had a home Game v Leicester in H Cup in Aviva. Leicester Made more money out of it than Leinster.

The. IRFU earn around 10m euro from the Provinces which is about 2.5m each that can be substrated from the Provinces grant from IRFU.

This is what some on here overlook, the IRFU system isn't much different to the WRU system. The money is as much payment for giving over control to the IRFU plus the prize money is built into those figures paid to the provinces.

PhilBB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:
I don't know, man. Google it? Email them? Phone and ask them how it's split between the provincial contributions and IRFU contributions. Or just assume whatever best fits your pre-chosen narrative about the imbalance between the provinces and the regions.

I did email them for a copy of their Financial Report. Of course, I got no response.

You made the claim that Ulster pay for it. You can provide no evidence to show that and I can point to €8m reasons that disprove you.

I'd say that the balance of required evidence was in your court, Sunshine.

Else, you're just another bluffer who has been found out.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/schools-cup/ulster-rugby-defend-ticket-prices-for-schools-cup-kingspan-final-between-rbai-and-campbell-34548717.html

Revenue from the Schools’ Cup Final and other games held at Kingspan Stadium is continually re-invested to grow the game across the Province. This investment has ledto an increase in participation in mini rugby, female rugby and disability rugby in recent years.

Well this is awkward

I guess its up to you now champ

Sorry, been stuck in meetings all day with clients and have come back late to this discussion, to summarise, the gripe from non union controlled teams is that they have to live within their means, union controlled sides do not as they are backed by their unions, thus this causes an uneven playing field in the Pro12.

The question I would like to ask is, how much less would the union run teams be able to spend if they were run as private concerns without the backing of their unions ?

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry, been stuck in meetings all day with clients and have come back late to this discussion, to summarise, the gripe from non union controlled teams is that they have to live within their means, union controlled sides do not as they are backed by their unions, thus this causes an uneven playing field in the Pro12.

The question I would like to ask is, how much less would the union run teams be able to spend if they were run as private concerns without the backing of their unions ?

50% according to the article

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry, been stuck in meetings all day with clients and have come back late to this discussion, to summarise, the gripe from non union controlled teams is that they have to live within their means, union controlled sides do not as they are backed by their unions, thus this causes an uneven playing field in the Pro12.

The question I would like to ask is, how much less would the union run teams be able to spend if they were run as private concerns without the backing of their unions ?

Yep, the Regions should have been Union owned from the beginning. Well, that would be the ideal, but don't think the WRU were in a position to afford to set up their own Regions.

bumble wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry, been stuck in meetings all day with clients and have come back late to this discussion, to summarise, the gripe from non union controlled teams is that they have to live within their means, union controlled sides do not as they are backed by their unions, thus this causes an uneven playing field in the Pro12.

The question I would like to ask is, how much less would the union run teams be able to spend if they were run as private concerns without the backing of their unions ?

50% according to the article

So the union run teams are spending twice the amount they earn ?

Shocking, isn't it

Munchkin wrote:Shocking, isn't it

Well, yes, as I did not realise they were being subsidised to that extent.

It's wonderful

Although I suppose they do invest a fair chunk of that money in grassroot, etc, etc....

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry, been stuck in meetings all day with clients and have come back late to this discussion, to summarise, the gripe from non union controlled teams is that they have to live within their means, union controlled sides do not as they are backed by their unions, thus this causes an uneven playing field in the Pro12.

The question I would like to ask is, how much less would the union run teams be able to spend if they were run as private concerns without the backing of their unions ?

Yep, the Regions should have been Union owned from the beginning. Well, that would be the ideal, but don't think the WRU were in a position to afford to set up their own Regions.

Why should they? Why would it? Apart from the obvious contradiction between should and would and the ability of the WRU to actually do it, as you mention, the problem is that they abandoned the system they had since the year dot for a middle of the road sh6t sandwich merger model. I can imagine the O'utrage on here if the IRFU suddenly abandoned the provincial system (aka the template for rugby admin in every country across the globe) in favour of a club model, just because it seems to work for England and France...

Philip Browne says IRFU subsidises Provinces €6/7m per annum. Taking into account the income that the Provinces don't receive from Pro12 & Chumps Cup (approx €10m per annum between the 4 Provinces), that would suggest that the total subsidy from the IRFU to the Provinces is approx. €4m (£3m sterling).

Now, what does the WRU contribute to the Regions?

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry, been stuck in meetings all day with clients and have come back late to this discussion, to summarise, the gripe from non union controlled teams is that they have to live within their means, union controlled sides do not as they are backed by their unions, thus this causes an uneven playing field in the Pro12.

The question I would like to ask is, how much less would the union run teams be able to spend if they were run as private concerns without the backing of their unions ?

Yep, the Regions should have been Union owned from the beginning. Well, that would be the ideal, but don't think the WRU were in a position to afford to set up their own Regions.

Why should they?  Why would it?  Apart from the obvious contradiction between should and would and the ability of the WRU to actually do it, as you mention, the problem is that they abandoned the system they had since the year dot for a middle of the road sh6t sandwich merger model.  I can imagine the O'utrage on here if the IRFU suddenly abandoned the provincial system (aka the template for rugby admin in every country across the globe) in favour of a club model, just because it seems to work for England and France...

No contradiction at all, oh dimwitted one. Note the word, 'ideal'. Perhaps I should have added the word 'have been', or maybe use a virtual crayon. So it would read ' "Well, that would have been the ideal. Giving you more of a past tense, even though that was already provided for you; " ... I don't think the WRU were in a position...". Now because I stated that 'I don't think the WRU were in a position...', this means that although I think ideally they should have, I'm not sure they would have been in a position to do so.

Hope that clears things up for your poor muddled mind.

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry, been stuck in meetings all day with clients and have come back late to this discussion, to summarise, the gripe from non union controlled teams is that they have to live within their means, union controlled sides do not as they are backed by their unions, thus this causes an uneven playing field in the Pro12.

The question I would like to ask is, how much less would the union run teams be able to spend if they were run as private concerns without the backing of their unions ?

LD, you should maybe read up on the AP finances. 7 of 12 are running at a loss and Bath and Saracens are having money pumped into them. Toulon are only self sufficient in the last few years because they set up a model to generate enough income to do what they are doing.

How many NEQ players are the AP teams restricted to? or NFQ in the Top 14?

Sin é wrote:Philip Browne says IRFU subsidises Provinces €6/7m per annum. Taking into account the income that the Provinces don't receive from Pro12 & Chumps Cup (approx €10m per annum between the 4 Provinces), that would suggest that the total subsidy from the IRFU to the Provinces is approx. €4m (£3m sterling).

Now, what does the WRU contribute to the Regions?

Why has the 6/7m Euro gone down to 4m?

bumble wrote:

Sin é wrote:Philip Browne says IRFU subsidises Provinces €6/7m per annum. Taking into account the income that the Provinces don't receive from Pro12 & Chumps Cup (approx €10m per annum between the 4 Provinces), that would suggest that the total subsidy from the IRFU to the Provinces is approx. €4m (£3m sterling).

Now, what does the WRU contribute to the Regions?

Why has the 6/7m Euro gone down to 4m?

Because the money for the ERCC and Pro12 goes to the IRFU and thats being included in the original figure