England call-up for Sam Underhill may be blocked by Premiership clubs

by LordDowlais Wed 30 Mar 2016, 1:33 pm

Well, it now looks as though it's the English clubs and the PRL that are picking the England squad from now on in:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/03/29/england-call-up-for-sam-underhill-may-be-blocked-by-premiership/

I for one think that this is ridiculous, if you are good enough, then surely it should not matter where you ply your trade. At this rate England could lose a very good young player to Wales, if the WRU or Ospreys offer him a contract extension and he takes it, then if England do not want him, I know Wales will.

by True Raven Wed 30 Mar 2016, 1:39 pm

Him not being called up is the best solution for all parties in my opinion. He's got a huge future ahead of him but the press and the RFU need to leave him alone and let him develop without this pressure.

He's not yet competing with Tipuric (an international openside) and is his understudy so isn't ready to challenge Pocock, Cane e.t.c

Also he won't qualify for Wales for another two and a half years so theres no chance he's going to play for Wales (although id be wary of those scottish vultures) and it's his first season of pro rugby.

However, the point of your article is about the clubs having too much power in this situation and they shouldn't be able to dictate what the RFU do

by HammerofThunor Wed 30 Mar 2016, 2:19 pm

Another made up cowpat article (original, not yours Dowlais, although you could have vetted it a bit better)

It is understood that the matter has not yet been raised with the clubs by the RFU but there is an expectancy that an agreement would need to be in place by May should Jones indicate that he wished to select Underhill for the tour of Australia in June.

This is just an extension the Armitage debate. The idea he should be selected for England tour as an exceptional circumstance is ridiculous. The only exception circumstance is he may player for Wales in 3 years time? Stick him in the Saxons if Eddie really wants a look at him (I'm firmly against capping players to stop them being capped by someone else). Note, the RFU do this because they have an agreement with the PRL clubs that gives them additional access. They don't have one with anyone else. Even contracted ones have given them gyp in the past with Haskell and Palmer in France. It's a good idea and one I fully agree with. If we can't get a decent team from 12 then so be it. If Underhill decides to stay in Wales beyond his degree, so be it.

by LordDowlais Wed 30 Mar 2016, 2:25 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Another made up cowpat article (original, not yours Dowlais, although you could have vetted it a bit better)

How could I have vetted it ? I gave you the whole damn thing, I did not write it I just read it.

by HammerofThunor Wed 30 Mar 2016, 2:29 pm

Well you wrote

Well, it now looks as though it's the English clubs and the PRL that are picking the England squad from now on in:-

Even though there has been absolutely nothing said on this by the PRL. You clearly didn't read it very well.

by LordDowlais Wed 30 Mar 2016, 2:34 pm

That was in response to this:-

[size=118]T[/size]he Premiership clubs could move to block England from selecting Ospreys flanker Sam Underhill for the summer tour of Australia unless they are convinced that his selection falls under the Rugby Football Union’s “exceptional circumstances” clause in the governing body’s selection policy, The Telegraphunderstands.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 30 Mar 2016, 2:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Well, it now looks as though it's the English clubs and the PRL that are picking the England squad from now on in:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/03/29/england-call-up-for-sam-underhill-may-be-blocked-by-premiership/

I for one think that this is ridiculous, if you are good enough, then surely it should not matter where you ply your trade. At this rate England could lose a very good young player to Wales, if the WRU or Ospreys offer him a contract extension and he takes it, then if England do not want him, I know Wales will.

Agree. Absolute nonsense.

Only three people should enter this equation:

1. San Underhill - does he want to play for England or Wales.
2. Eddie Jones - does he want to pick him.
3. Warren Gatland - does he want to pick him.

Nothing else should matter.

by HammerofThunor Wed 30 Mar 2016, 2:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:That was in response to this:-

[size=118]T[/size]he Premiership clubs could move to block England from selecting Ospreys flanker Sam Underhill for the summer tour of Australia unless they are convinced that his selection falls under the Rugby Football Union’s “exceptional circumstances” clause in the governing body’s selection policy, The Telegraphunderstands.

Which is based on absolutely nothing, as clearly stated in the article. All it suggests is that the PRL have some say in whether something is exceptional or not. The rule blocking players is an RFU one

by Geordie Wed 30 Mar 2016, 3:38 pm

by beshocked Wed 30 Mar 2016, 3:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Well, it now looks as though it's the English clubs and the PRL that are picking the England squad from now on in:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/03/29/england-call-up-for-sam-underhill-may-be-blocked-by-premiership/

I for one think that this is ridiculous, if you are good enough, then surely it should not matter where you ply your trade. At this rate England could lose a very good young player to Wales, if the WRU or Ospreys offer him a contract extension and he takes it, then if England do not want him, I know Wales will.

Welsh club rugby has suffered because you continued to pick players who chose the money in France and England.

If Underhill wishes to play for England, he should play in England. I know that Underhill is seen as a very promising youngster but he's still got a lot of proving to do.

Why should he be the exception?

If Underhill is allowed to play for Ospreys and for England it sets a bad example and weakens the English policy. I wouldn't be surprised if the English clubs are against his call up, though saying that I am sure he'll get plenty of offers to join an English club.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 30 Mar 2016, 3:47 pm

Just cap him to tie him to England. Wouldn't have to select him permanently in the team. Or do the Saxons games against SA count? Just don't want another Morgan situation where Wales start to sniff after him as he approaches qualification.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 30 Mar 2016, 3:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just cap him to tie him to England. Wouldn't have to select him permanently in the team. Or do the Saxons games against SA count? Just don't want another Morgan situation where Wales start to sniff after him as he approaches qualification.

To be honest if he was thinking strategically he'd join England anyway. Not only are they the better side at the moment, they also need a proper 7, whereas Wales have Warburton, Tipuric and Davies all lining up to compete for the 7 jersey (it's probably their strongest position in terms of depth).

In terms of English clubs to join, I'm pretty sure a few would be lining up for his services. Not an abundance of top quality 7s knocking about.

by True Raven Wed 30 Mar 2016, 3:57 pm

But if he wants to develop into the player he's expected to be, he should stay put

by No 7&1/2 Wed 30 Mar 2016, 3:59 pm

Because?

by True Raven Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:03 pm

More game time, a coach who used to be an openside, a British and Irish lion to learn from plus hes developing nicely where he is.

Any English club could have picked him up when he left Gloucester but none chose too

by HammerofThunor Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:09 pm

True Raven wrote:More game time, a coach who used to be an openside, a British and Irish lion to learn from plus hes developing nicely where he is.

Any English club could have picked him up when he left Gloucester but none chose too

Isn't that because he goes to Cardiff Uni?

by True Raven Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:13 pm

He's studying economics which is a course at uni's all around the UK. No club picked him up so he chose to go to Cardiff Uni and play for Bridgend Ravens semo-pro.

He just as easily could have studied economics at Bath if Bath had decided to offer him a development contract

by True Raven Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:14 pm

I should add that the reason he is seen as an exceptional case is that he came to Wales to study and not to play professional rugby (ala Armitage)

by beshocked Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:14 pm

True Raven wrote:But if he wants to develop into the player he's expected to be, he should stay put

Disagree with that.

If he went to a club with Quins he would work with the likes of Clifford and Robshaw in the backrow.

At Saints - Picamoles and Wood.

At Exeter Salvi and Waldrom

At Saracens Billy and Schalk Burger

At Wasps Hughes,Smith and Haskell

If he went to Leicester he could become a Leicester club hero - could do with a promising youngster in the backrow. Leicester have a strong front five but could do with another backrower with potential in my opinion

At Bath Faletau.

Plenty of good backrows he could work with. Also some pretty strong packs there too. Stronger than Gloucester and Ospreys.

by True Raven Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:17 pm

I didn't realise picamoles was an openside.....

by LordDowlais Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:21 pm

True Raven wrote:I didn't realise picamoles was an openside.....

Or Faletau. Laugh

by bedfordwelsh Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:30 pm

Maybe some can correct me here but I am sure I read that while he is still in college (which I think he is) his halls of residency address, or wherever he is living, doesn't count to his qualifying period as his home address is still in Gloucester.

If he moved out of halls and into his own place that is when his residency period would start from.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:35 pm

Given the amount of game time he is getting at the Ospreys, including European rugby, he should stay there for at least one more year. A player of his age should be focused on getting a full pre season under his belt and maybe playing under 20s if he still qualifies (quite frankly England are desperate for some muscle in their pack with this crop of under 20s).

What he chooses to do in the future is up to him. He's only likely to travel in order to gain experience so could do that without actually being part of the playing squad if all agreed on it.

The PRL clubs would rather the RFU selected only from their players as it helps with contract negotiations.

by beshocked Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:38 pm

Err no they are not opensides... that's the whole point... Underhill could compliment them.

A little bit easier playing with top class no 8s. Build a partnership.

by True Raven Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:44 pm

Fine, sorry i retract my point but how is that working out now for your young sevens already plying their trade in England?

Clearly it's not as Eddie Jones wants to cap a guy in his first year of professional rugby playing outside of England.

by beshocked Wed 30 Mar 2016, 4:58 pm

Well Clifford isn't faring too badly though it's still debatable what his best position is.

Fraser and Ksevic are doing okay albeit not particularly favoured by Eddie Jones.

Remember that in England the fast track method isn't particularly popular.

Obviously Wales like the development work of the English clubs hence taking Moriarty and Francis.

Don't get me wrong clearly Ospreys hasn't been a bad club for Underhill to be at but if he has England aspirations then playing with some England players wouldn't harm him in my opinion.

Familiarity can be a good thing - I remember when 13 Ospreys and some other blokes beat England in 2008.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 30 Mar 2016, 5:00 pm

England seem to struggle to bring through opensides. Having said that Fraser at Sarries must be worth a cap and Kvesic at Glaws has been playing well. After that there's not a whole lot more to choose from unless Jones wants to select foreigners who qualify in which case Tigers have two options for him (though one is currently taking much needed rest time).

Welch at Falcons and Rowan at Glaws were once considered to be players of promise but have fallen away from form. Wallace at Quins is developing very well but if Jones gets into the habit of taking three backrow players from them into every squad the relationship with their new DOR is unlikely to be a friendly one.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 30 Mar 2016, 5:22 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:England seem to struggle to bring through opensides.

Tom Rees was the great hope. In a parallel universe, he'd have been a central player under Martin Johnson's England and still a key figure today.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 30 Mar 2016, 8:14 pm

He retired years ago. We should have found someone else by now. Where have all the under 20th sevens gone? Everard is languishing in the Championship, Skinner is down the order at Chiefs, who knows where Gus Jones is, Rowan is lucky to make the bench at Glaws.

by Geordie Thu 31 Mar 2016, 8:29 am

Im still not sure why Kvesic is seemingly not rated.

Has Eddie Jones always played a traditional 7. He didn't with Japan. Not sure about his previous roles.

So far for England he's preferred pure muscle at the breakdown.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 31 Mar 2016, 12:39 pm

True Raven wrote:He's studying economics which is a course at uni's all around the UK. No club picked him up so he chose to go to Cardiff Uni and play for Bridgend Ravens semo-pro.

He just as easily could have studied economics at Bath if Bath had decided to offer him a development contract

cowpat. He was in Gloucester's academy, they wanted to keep him, he decided to study in Cardiff. Once there he signed to play for Bridgend. His decision to study where he did had bugger all to do with his rugby aspirations.

by True Raven Thu 31 Mar 2016, 1:56 pm

Which is what i said, he chose to go to university in Cardiff and then played for Bridgend ravens. In terms if Gloucester keeping him, Bristol university is a better uni to study economics than Cardiff (see the university rankings) and Bristol to Gloucester is closer than Swansea is to Cardiff so if Gloucester were that keen on keeping him they obviously didn't make that much of an effort

by **LondonTiger** Thu 31 Mar 2016, 2:03 pm

You certainly inferred that no club wanted him, which is untrue. As a member of Gloucester's Academy he is only able to join anothe club in England with a transfer fee paid if Glaws wish to keep him, as they did.

He chose to put his education first (and maybe he was unable to get the grades to go to a "better" school) knowing that he would be some way down the pecking order at Glaws.

Distance from Swansea to Cardiff is irrelevant as playing for the Ospreys was unlikely to be on Underhill's radar when he did his UCAs stuff early last year.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 31 Mar 2016, 2:08 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
True Raven wrote:He's studying economics which is a course at uni's all around the UK. No club picked him up so he chose to go to Cardiff Uni and play for Bridgend Ravens semo-pro.

He just as easily could have studied economics at Bath if Bath had decided to offer him a development contract

cowpat. He was in Gloucester's academy, they wanted to keep him, he decided to study in Cardiff. Once there he signed to play for Bridgend. His decision to study where he did had bugger all to do with his rugby aspirations.

I am guessing then academically (at least) he thought Cardiff Uni offered him more. Still not sure if the report about his time here not serving towards his residency is correct or not as can't find the piece I am sure I read lol.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 31 Mar 2016, 2:10 pm

True Raven wrote:Which is what i said, he chose to go to university in Cardiff and then played for Bridgend ravens. In terms if Gloucester keeping him, Bristol university is a better uni to study economics than Cardiff (see the university rankings) and Bristol to Gloucester is closer than Swansea is to Cardiff so if Gloucester were that keen on keeping him they obviously didn't make that much of an effort

Not wanting to question his credentials, but is it possible he chose Cardiff over Bristol due to having the required grades for one and not the other? I know of people who were planning on going to uni in one place, but ended up having to go to the other side of the country because they were a bit short on grades.

Also, I find it quite funny that there are some Welsh fans on here who are against the English clubs trying to stop his selection, yet are supporters of the so called gatlands law.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 31 Mar 2016, 2:18 pm

If England want to select him then surely it's got diddly squat, sweet FA to do with us Welsh fans.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 31 Mar 2016, 2:23 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:If England want to select him then surely it's got diddly squat, sweet FA to do with us Welsh fans.

That is pretty much my take on it. He is not qualified for Wales, and not even on the path to qualifying for us. So with the possible exception of Ospreys fans (glad he's going to get interenational rugby / gutted he may be away during the AIs or 6Ns) it really has nothing to do with us.

by True Raven Thu 31 Mar 2016, 2:26 pm

LondonTiger wrote:You certainly inferred that no club wanted him, which is untrue. As a member of Gloucester's Academy he is only able to join anothe club in England with a transfer fee paid if Glaws wish to keep him, as they did.

He chose to put his education first (and maybe he was unable to get the grades to go to a "better" school) knowing that he would be some way down the pecking order at Glaws.

Distance from Swansea to Cardiff is irrelevant as playing for the Ospreys was unlikely to be on Underhill's radar when he did his UCAs stuff early last year.

He was training with the Ospreys almost immediately as he was on the bench for our first game against Ulster, so seemed to want to be part of a professional rugby team and when he started training with the Ospreys was behind tipuric, Lloyd Evans and olly cracknell and so would have joined knowing he was buried on the depth chart. If Gloucester made that much of an effort to keep him, surely he would have jumped at the opportunity to be part of a pro rugby team like he did with the Ospreys.

So I'm not buying this idea that he put his rugby career on hold to gain an education considering he was with us before he enrolled at university and as I stated he could have studied closer to Gloucester if Gloucester chose to keep him on.

And in terms of being able to study at both universities you need an AAB for both

by No 7&1/2 Thu 31 Mar 2016, 2:39 pm

So he felt it was easier getting a chance in Wales? Not really heard much from him but I expect him to be tied to England this summer. Will be interesting to see if the RFU pressure him to come back to England or the Welsh stop picking him.

by munkian Thu 31 Mar 2016, 3:18 pm

[b]No 7&1/2 wrote:So he felt it was easier getting a chance in Wales?[/b] Not really heard much from him but I expect him to be tied to England this summer. Will be interesting to see if the RFU pressure him to come back to England or the Welsh stop picking him.

Yeah cos we have bugger all 7s...

by No 7&1/2 Thu 31 Mar 2016, 3:19 pm

Just going by above that he would get more game time in Wales.

by HammerofThunor Thu 31 Mar 2016, 3:43 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I am guessing then academically (at least) he thought Cardiff Uni offered him more. Still not sure if the report about his time here not serving towards his residency is correct or not as can't find the piece I am sure I read lol.

Don't know what you read but this is from Regulation 8

World Rugby Regulation 8: Explanatory Guidelines wrote:18. What is the position of students?
As far as students are concerned, particularly those that are not financially independent, being resident, as a full time student, in another country, is likely to be considered as a series of temporary absences from the parental home. It is anticipated that in the majority of cases involving students the parental home is likely to continue to constitute the student’s permanent and primary home. Accordingly, attendance at college/university in such circumstances is unlikely to break a Player’s consecutive period of Residence. However, as in all matters of eligibility, the overriding concern of the Regulations Committee in assessing any such case will be to ensure that there remains a close, credible and established link with the country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and permanent home. There could be circumstances in which a student living in another country may be deemed to have interrupted his Residency period.

So normally living somewhere as a student doesn't count.

http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/upload/file/1287399004_gfirbregulation8_883.PDF

by bedfordwelsh Thu 31 Mar 2016, 11:25 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:I am guessing then academically (at least) he thought Cardiff Uni offered him more. Still not sure if the report about his time here not serving towards his residency is correct or not as can't find the piece I am sure I read lol.

Don't know what you read but this is from Regulation 8

World Rugby Regulation 8: Explanatory Guidelines wrote:18. What is the position of students?
As far as students are concerned, particularly those that are not financially independent, being resident, as a full time student, in another country, is likely to be considered as a series of temporary absences from the parental home. It is anticipated that in the majority of cases involving students the parental home is likely to continue to constitute the student’s permanent and primary home. Accordingly, attendance at college/university in such circumstances is unlikely to break a Player’s consecutive period of Residence. However, as in all matters of eligibility, the overriding concern of the Regulations Committee in assessing any such case will be to ensure that there remains a close, credible and established link with the country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and permanent home. There could be circumstances in which a student living in another country may be deemed to have interrupted his Residency period.

So normally living somewhere as a student doesn't count.

http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/upload/file/1287399004_gfirbregulation8_883.PDF

Hammer,

Yeah that's how I understood it so currently anytime spent in Wales won't count o his residency if he even wanted to go down that route. I vaguely knew his old man when we were at RAF Honington together and he;s now working down in Abbey Wood near Bath but by all accounts Sam has not shown any intention to play for Wales.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:20 am

That last sentence is probably important given he's in the country playing for a Welsh team now may swing it to say he's embedded in the area.

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