PGA Tour: The Masters - Never Mind The Width, Feel The Quality: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

(One of our regular golf posters frequently writes amazing articles on the major events going on in the golfing world. v2 poster McLaren has suggested that as The Masters is underway, that you might all want to share in the debate - Enjoy!
Adam D)

Kwinigolfer wrote:

1).When has there ever been a Masters when so many top golfers came to Augusta at the peak of their form, or very close to it? The field of 89 may be the smallest for 14 years, and at least 20 amateurs or ceremonial entrants are irrelevant, but cases could easily be made for dozens of others, strong cases for at least a dozen.

2).I watched an old BBC documentary last night about the music and life of the great Ronnie Lane, and Kenney Jones came up with an especially bon mot that surely also seems to apply to writers talking about The Masters. Talking about speaking by phone to a dying Ronnie in Colorado, Kenney said words to the effect of:
"Ronnie, I know you can't talk to me so I'm going to ask questions that I think you'd ask me, and then I'll answer them." Brilliant. Apparently Ronnie was lying there in hysterics!
But isn't that just like writers, and especially "tourists" from other sports, regurgitating the same old stories about the same old stars? The same old Rory this, Jordan that, Jason the other, rhetorical crap??

3).First, the field. Should it be even smaller, eliminating the seniors and amateurs? Not in my book, with some caveats. Some of the amateur qualifications might seem a tad/lot contrived, but I like the Past Champion exemption, so long as there's some performance criteria attached - even if it's five strikes (missed cuts in a row) and you're out. Celebrating Past Champions is part of the appeal to the "patrons"; this year's Rounds 1 & 2 will be a lovefest for Tom Watson. Perhaps O'Meara and Mize, Lyle and Woosie will stay at home soon but you can see the likes of Couples, Langer and Vijay playing until they get kicked out.
Next year the 2016 Olympic winner will also be exempt, as he will be for all four Majors.

4).Who would you include in the Field to make it more competitive? I would say Pieters has a strong case, but he's about the only one. Aussie Open Champ Matt Jones should be there, and he would have been if he hadn't pretty much tanked the past few months, so no sympathy there. Any others?

5).Unluckiest guy not to be competing is surely David Clark. Carried Adam Scott's bag to his most successful run for two or three years but shoved aside for Steve Williams in the Majors.

6).Who do you fancy? I'll look beyond the Top Three. Just something about Jason Day but wouldn't be shocked if he ran away like Spieth did last year.
Spieth doesn't seem quite at ease with his game and would be surprised if he wins here again, this year anyway.
And Rory (hole in one on #16 yesterday!) seems a bit Sergio-like right now; just when he looks like he's moving into top gear, he hits a mental speed bump of sorts, plus his putting has been unconvincing, to say the least. His stroke looks OK so does he just have trouble reading greens, even with that laser surgery?

7).Continental Europe hasn't seen a Masters winner for almost twenty years and I can't see that changing, much as I'd like to see Stenson win the Major he perhaps deserves. The head-cover is coming off Henrik's driver this week so that's a welcome(?) tactical switch.
And GB&I are lacking convincing form, tho' Casey and Rose seem to reserve some of their best weeks for Augusta.
The Asian contingent could surprise but question marks against their best players persist: Matsuyma's putting, Ben An's neck (he reckons he hasn't hit full shots since w/d'ing from his WGC Match vs Cabrera Bello).

8).Branden Grace had a fabulous season last year, but he's missed his past two Masters cuts and doesn't seem to be in top form just yet. But Oosthuizen and Schwartzel have been flying and both seem great each way bets.
Interesting that Phil Mickelson has overtaken Woods as leading Masters money winner; can Phil's chances ever be dismissed here? In decent form all year and certainly in my top five, along with Bubba. Rickie Fowler is a popular choice in the US media but I'll look past him and prefer Dustin Johnson and Snedeker as well as Bubba among the Americans. (No American under the age of 35 has won a PGA Tournament since Spieth three months ago in Hawaii, other than Finau in the opposite field event anyhow.)

9).Which leaves Adam Scott; one month ago no-one was playing better than Scott & Watson, and even with Excitable Boy bagman Williams keeping him company rather than the calming influence of Clark, I like Adam Scott a lot. Top Five then for moi with PP odds (e.w. paying top 7!):
Scott (11/1), Watson (11/1), Mickelson (18/1), Oosthuizen (33/1), Schwartzel (35/1). Rose top Brit, Kisner top rookie and Snedeker best outsider (55/1). Regional loyalties compel the choice of Derek Bard as leading amateur.    

10).The Masters throws up some surprising groupings and it's a shame that they haven't taken advantage of the smaller field to send them out in pairs for Rounds 1 & 2.
Who do you think they'll send out with Tom Watson? Snedeker perhaps, and a youngster would be my guess.
One of the most anticipated groupings of recent years was: Who will be playing with Woods following his Mississippi rehab in 2010? Do you remember who they chose??
For the next five days I'll accept The Masters for what it is and enjoy the action; chance of rain on Thursday and cool and breezy every day thru Saturday. Perfect forecast for Sunday and I can't wait. Enjoy!

C'mon Bernhard!

#12: First shot that Rory's hit that is better than merely good. Still not too late to turn this around, but a birdie here would be a nice bonus.

If Rory can go 2,3,3,3 things might get interesting!

Rory and jordan a par 5 behind the kjeldsen group?

What a putt by spieth meaning rory never going to make his!

Magnificent birdie by Spieth at the 12th

Hideki?

McIlroy's putting leaves a lot to be desired

beninho wrote:Rory and jordan a par 5 behind the kjeldsen group?

 

Scott Piercy and Danny Lee are the penultimate group, not Kjeldson and Snedeker.

I'm starting to find this dull. Speith is obviously going to win, but not really in style. It's not the players' fault, they're not trying to play poorly but the course is proving too tough given the wind and the greens.

As an aside, can someone explain to me why Horschel had to suffer a penalty when his ball blew off the green?

GPB wrote:

beninho wrote:Rory and jordan a par 5 behind the kjeldsen group?

 

Scott Piercy and Danny Lee are the penultimate group, not Kjeldson and Snedeker.

honestly don'tthink iI've seen lee hit a shot!

Smithers,
Had he marked it? Not sure that he had.

Seems like a CBS executive decision to stop showing Rory . . . . . . . .

That's because he's +4 and not playing with Jordan.

beninho wrote:Lager in the last group Sunday. ...

Let's hope they don't get drunk.

He had marked it Kwini, yes, and replaced it, and was stalking the line when a sudden gust blew it down towards and in the water on 15.

Many years ago the Masters last was exciting. Maybe Scotts playoff vs Cabrara and Bubbas vs Oosty.

Re Horschel's Ruling

If Horschel's ball had rolled closer to the hole (or even into the hole) it would have counted.

So by that logic, if it rolls into the pond...that also counts.

Horschal took it well when interviewed.

Spieth will win this.

GPB,
Surely the rule change was designed to take care of that, a la Michael Thompson here when he was an amateur . . . . . .
Don't really see the point of thinking that is fair.

McIlroy needs to be careful, Els didn't cope too well when he realised he couldn't beat Tiger head to head. I know it was only a WGC in one case but Rory has been blown away by far superior putting twice in a few weeks by the worlds two best players.

Not been on here for a while... but how on earth is Spieth getting away with this pace of play?

NedB-H wrote:Not been on here for a while... but how on earth is Spieth getting away with this pace of play?

Simple Answer:  Because his group is in position.  When they teed off #18, the group ahead (Danny Lee and Scott Piercy) were on the 18th green.

Not sure why the focus is on putting...he will expect to be left behind in that field especially when it's highlighted more because of playing with Spieth...it's his errant tee shots and poor iron play that's cost him here today. Putting hasn't been great for sure but you take the pressure off that when you at least hit your tees onto the fairway and greens in reg

And agreed regards Spieths pace of play its painstaking! I actually use the x12 fast forward during every build up to his actual shot because he takes that long! It's shocking that it isn't being punished because that's 3 days at a pace which makes a snail look like Usain Bolt!

"McIlroys masters meltdown Part Two"

That's your headline for tomorrow's papers anyway

So 4 and a half hours for a two ball ( when McIlroy has played fairly quick) is acceptable? They're over a hole behind now, and the delay is entirely Spieth's... Don't get me wrong that his golf itself has been superb, but he should have been on the clock many, many holes ago.

NedB-H wrote:So 4 and a half hours for a two ball ( when McIlroy has played fairly quick) is acceptable? They're over a hole behind now, and the delay is entirely Spieth's... Don't get me wrong that his golf itself has been superb, but he should have been on the clock many, many holes ago.

They were not a hole behind when they teed off 18.

Scott Piercy and Danny Lee were still on the green.

Let's hope they make the course more friendly for tomorrow, so someone can go shoot a 66 and really challenge Spieth

Who's in with a chance tomorrow? Those at +1?
Can't see Spieth doing worse than 74 and no one else better than 70..(?)

Sorry can't quote on a tablet... I thought they finished at least fifteen minutes after the penultimate group, which two my mind is behind, even allowing for Spieth's drive. But the point stands either way... 4hrs 35 for the final two ball. Not on.

Sorry can't quote on a tablet... I thought they finished at least fifteen minutes after the penultimate group, which two my mind is behind, even allowing for Spieth's drive. But the point stands either way... 4hrs 35 for the final two ball. Not on.

Agreed:

 4 hrs and 35 minutes is too long for a two-some.

But do you agree that they can only go as fast as the group ahead of them?

pedro wrote:Who's in with a chance tomorrow? Those at +1?
Can't see Spieth doing worse than 74 and no one else better than 70..(?)

I think they will setup the course for scoring tomorrow.

A little more moisture on the greens and holes in accessible locations.

Would not be surprised to see scores in the mid 60's tomorrow.

I hope so.  They need to bring the ROARS back to the Masters.

Of course; but I don't believe they were ever up with them either. It's a chronic problem, but if Jordan's the poster boy for the good stuff, he has to be for the bad too.

Ned,
How are you??!!

Plenty of slow play out there, but Spieth's (and Day's) tortoise-like pace must aggravate the bloke they're playing with. Imagine there'll be very few twosomes getting away with four-hour rounds next week.

Matsuyama let things get away as much as anyone not called Rory, very makeable putts on 15, 16, 17 missed and he really could be in the overnight lead.
Great resilience from most of the English guys, a 71, 72, 73 out there and only Poulter with worse than a 75 - with field average score being 76+.

Looked as if the later starters got away with the best of the winds, but conditions tomorrow should be perfect, sunny, firm and fast.

Re Slow Play

IMO:  Slow Play is the sum of two main factors.  

1. Preshot routine
2. Walking Speed

The TV audience only see a player's pre-shot routine, and it is deemed to be slow, then we automatically label that player as slow.

When a player is put on the clock, the Stop Watch Gestapo only measures the time it takes for a player to execute a shot.  They don't measure their gait.  A player can and will mitigate a slow pre shot routine with a fast gait.  I think Jim Furyk is a perfect example of this phenomena as I have never known him to be put on the clock.  But he sure has had a long pre-shot routine.

Payne Stewart was put on the clock at the 1999 US Open.  and he said in the press room that the best way to react when you are put on the clock is to walk slower.  It gives your caddie a chance to get to the ball first, get all the measurements gathered so all the info is at your disposal when you get to the ball. Then you can pick a club and swing.

I had the misfortune to watch the last two hours of today's play on Fox Sport. I reckon 25% of the coverage was of Speith talking to his caddie and going through his pre-shot/putt routine.
As good as golfer as he is, he's as boring as hell to watch.

Surprised: Rory sputtered and Justin gave so much back at the end. (Don't count Rory out just yet.)

Not Surprised: Mental midget Sergio shot a smooth 81 to stay on pace to win as many professional majors as I have.  

Langer ... the highest placed "Euro" RCupper hopeful?

I gave up and went to bed after the 15th. So was surprised to see spieth as close as he is. Rory has been making mistakes all weeks just did not offset them with any bogeys yesterday. I don't think he had a full on meltdown only being 4 behind spieth. But his 3 putt on 7 was the killer and that shot on 11 into the water was terrible.

I will say it's not been a great tournement so far. Don't think the course has played that we'll and the wind obviously hasn't helped. I don't mind a hard setup but at least give them chances to make birdies and post decent scores. Don't like level or 1 under being best rounds. And sone of the greens are boderline unfair slightly over hit chips running into the water.

Benhino good shout on it not being a good tournament to watch so far. Part of Dr Macs philosophy was providing the chance to recover if you hit a great shot from a tricky position but unless you were Jordan Spieth that just didn't seem possible yesterday.

The Masters committee claim to have pretty much total control over the speed of the greens so you can only assume they wanted one of the highest stimp readings on one of the windiest Masters in many years.

If you want firm and fast do it around an leading up to the greens, don't just make the greens super fast and hope that counts as interesting conditions. I would like to bet you still couldn't have run a low 8 iron onto a green from 120, landing it 50 yards short. The grass around the greens was pretty sticky. Firm and fast'ish conditions leading up to the greens and firm but sensible green speeds is how the course was intended to be played.

If the committee is even aware of the notion of the fast and firm philosophy they have badly misinterpreted it.

Course designed for target golf proves almost unplayable in strong winds. Shocker.

But some people managed to overcome conditions. Can't recall Rory making anything longer than his (what?) five footer for double on #11. Apart from his stupid second shot on 11 he didn't play that badly, but every mistake magnified - especially apparently poor drives on all Par-5's.

Better forecast for today, but let's hope they put some water on those greens:

https://weather.com/weather/hourbyhour/l/USGA0032:1:US

Rory made the mistake of hitting it left where no patrons were located. Spieth had the sense to go right and get a patrons ricochet.


OwenOzzy complained above about the focus on putting but as you point out kwini Rory didn't do much worse than Spieth away from the greens but made nothing on them. That is why the focus is on putting. On 7 for example Rory turned what could have been a 2 shot swing into a confidence wrecking 3 putt.

I saw some twitter chat yesterday about JP being useless and people defending him by saying Rory has ultimate control over shot choice. Sky did a section before one of the rounds where players idenfied all no go areas on each hole. Rory managed to hit into most of them. For example short and a little right on 3. OK, he hit it there but shouldn't JP have made it clear to him that anywhere but there was the aim of his shot from the fairway bunker.

Or after Rory had ended all chance of a birdie on the first par 5, could JP have persuaded Rory to take 3 wood from the tee on 8, played for a SW in and an almost guaranteed birdie chance.

Not sure JP can be blamed on 11, if Rory can't see why you never try the shot he tried then there is little hope of him seeing reason.

13 - Again, try to push the 3 wood option from the tee.

15 - Another botched par 5, but nothing JP could have done.


In summary Rory is currently struggling with course management and putting that I think some caddies could mitigate to some degree. Has JP ever had a second look at a putt for Rory?

Lots of "Feel the Bern" chatter around here.
Who dey talkin' about?
Sanders?
Or Langer?


Spieth is 25th for the tournament in "driving accuracy", 25th in greens hit in reg". Not sure about the putting stats, but you'd think that ball-striking has got to improve.
As for JP, sometimes he just looks like an indulgent father trying to manage a precocious son, never knowing quite how to handle his prodigy. Hope he finds out today . . . . . .

Remember, Top 12 and ties will be invited to do this all over again next April. Westwood for instance, who played such a super back nine yesterday. And a realistic target for Fitzpatrick, Wood and Donaldson to aim for.

Maybe I have this wrong but was perturbed by Speith's behaviour yesterday. Apart from being painfully slow, he consistently walked of the green when he was finished, meaning the crowd moved too while McIlroy still had to putt out. Also saw him moving and fidgeting several times while McIlroy was putting.

Mcilroy and Garcia's putting getting shown up on testing greens! What a shock!!! Mcilroy's new putting grip isn't a long term solution!

I thought there was no love lost between Spieth and Mcilroy for all the talk of them getting on well! They were awfully quiet during the round!

JP is a woeful caddie! I would have caddied Mcilroy to 4 major wins tbh

Does anyone know how well thought of as a caddie JP is among other caddies and pro's? Has he offered more to players in the past and could therefore offer Rory more help if he asked for it, or is he just not the sort of caddie who can offer the more useful and detailed advice.

I am not suggesting he needs to be a greller and cause a massive debate before each shot but you do wonder if Rory would benefit from a few well timed words of wisdom at some points in a round to improve his course management and reduce the number of big scores he posts.

Rd4 Pin Positions:

Are we in for some more fun than yesterday?

Most are pretty traditional but they still look pretty tough.

Hi Kwini, keeping well thanks.

I think the issue with Spieth's pace is as much consistency as anything. In the better conditions on Thursday he seemed noticeably quicker. Obviously everyone takes longer in the wind... But the question is whether part of the thinking was either dawdling in the hope of catching a lull; or slowing intentionally to affect the rhythm of first Casey, then McIlroy.

Seems like I might be in the minority but I am actually really enjoying this tournament; for me a week where par is par, or thereabouts, is much more fun than a birdiefest. I'd rather watch players having to struggle and battle than a round where one unforced error is fatal; same reason that I find basketball such a dull spectator sport, where they are so good you expect a score every time, and missing a two-pointer is game over.
That said, no doubt the greens could be a bit slower given the wind, with the benefit of hindsight. And the greens are why Spieth is leading; he hasn't made monsters particularly, but his consistency of holing out from 5-15 is incredible. Be interesting to see if he keeps that up for the next 20 years. Matsuyama yesterday and Lowry on Thursday, to name but two, have struck the ball better but no one has scrambled as well as Spieth.

I don't really know what makes a good caddie. I would assume it is about fitting with your boss. And rory seems the sort who likes to makes his own calls the majority of time. He is clearly his own man, as shown with his court case, I think a caddy that started getting more involved wouldn't work. I doubt they'd have a great working relationship. Spieth seems a fidgety and maybe insecure golfer who likes confirmation on almost every shot.