Barcelona/Bucharest

First topic message reminder :

Rafa & Granollers have just played the first two games of their match, consisting of 26 points.

Zverev with a good win against Bellucci.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Wake up and smell the marijuana hawkeye ...doping is going on. Better to talk about it than sweep it under the carpet.

Murray is just as suspect as all other players. He had no right to throw **** at other players with no evidence. Murray has a contract with the ATP and I struggle to see how what he has said doesn't represent "conduct contrary to the integrity of the game" From the ATP rule book

Conduct contrary to the integrity of the game shall include, but not be limited to, comments to the news media that unreasonably attack or disparage a tournament, sponsor, player, official or the ATP.

Quite rightly the punishment for this is severe. A $100,000 fine and/or suspension from the tour.

The ATP should be protecting it's reputation and that of its players. Of course they won't fine Murray though. But I wonder what the reaction would be if a player said they suspected Murray was a drug cheat?

I hate to break your heart hawkeye but Roger Federer also holds strong views on the subject as well and has fequently called for much more tests to be carried out. But hey ho I hear another Carry On film is in the making just now well I propose it to be called Carry On Doping.

He didnt throw s*** at anyone, he just noted that he thought people sometimes demonstrated anomalous powers of endurance and that he wasn't. Thats a general statement, there nothing libellous about it.
No player, sponsor, or whatever was specifically targeted. to spell this out

HE HASNT CALLED ANYONE A CHEAT...

Dont think you can completely ignore that, and cc et al not pick up on it

CC, how many more times do I have to make it crystal clear for you. I use the term "relative weakness(es)" all the time when referring to Murray. Sure he's had success...great for him...but when compared against the very best he doesn't quite match up. That's what I analyse. Sure I could talk about what he does well, as I could about the whole ATP tour...footwork, returning basic techniques, etc, etc. But at the highest level it's what separates the guys that counts.
Yes I don't care the guy, he moans on court, feels his back/arm/leg whatever every time he loses a point and even blames his box when things are going wrong, he's not an aspirational player to watch for juniors or anyone else. Outside of patriotism I don't see what attraction there is in watching Murray but hey, each to their own. However, my analysis of Murray is unbiased and not driven by how I feel about the guy. It's a technically oriented discussion. If you don't like it then feel free to unpick it and disagree. If you can't or don't want to then fine but it's a free world and I'll analyse whoever I want to...especially a player who was winning 50% of matches against the top 4 up to 2012 but since is down to 17%...that's rather curious for a 2 time slammer I'd say. This is why I'm discussing it.

My posit is that much of it is technique driven. If you're not aware, Rafa, Djokovic and Federer haven't stood still since 2012 either...they continue t work on their technique. Rafa's FH has changed, Federer's BH too...what has Murray changed? I'm all ears CC...

Hang on ive just noticed this is the Barcelona thread...
How did the other two topics bleed onto here?

CaledonianCraig wrote:I hate to break your heart hawkeye but Roger Federer also holds strong views on the subject as well and has fequently called for much more tests to be carried out. But hey ho I hear another Carry On film is in the making just now well I propose it to be called Carry On Doping.

Did Federer call Murray a drug cheat? Do you really not know the difference? Murray's slurs apply to himself. As far as I can see he is the "fittest" on the tour. He is just ****** because he can't beat players that are better than him. Disgraceful! If he knows anything he should go to WADA and not cry to the press.

This is what Murray said

"I have played against players and thought, 'They won't go away' or 'They don't seem to be getting tired. Have I ever been suspicious of someone? Yeah. You hear things.

"It's harder to tell in our sport as people can make big improvements to a stroke or start serving better because they have made technical changes.

"If it's purely physical and you're watching someone playing six-hour matches over and over and showing no signs of being tired, you'd look at that."

"When someone like Sharapova is banned, I see that as being a positive," he added. "If that stuff is happening and you don't hear about it, I have a big issue because it's like the sport is covering up for the big stars."

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/tennis/boris-becker-hits-back-at-andy-murrays-claims-over-doping_sto5450102/story.shtml

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Wake up and smell the marijuana hawkeye ...doping is going on. Better to talk about it than sweep it under the carpet.

Murray is just as suspect as all other players. He had no right to throw **** at other players with no evidence. Murray has a contract with the ATP and I struggle to see how what he has said doesn't represent "conduct contrary to the integrity of the game" From the ATP rule book

Conduct contrary to the integrity of the game shall include, but not be limited to, comments to the news media that unreasonably attack or disparage a tournament, sponsor, player, official or the ATP.

Quite rightly the punishment for this is severe. A $100,000 fine and/or suspension from the tour.

The ATP should be protecting it's reputation and that of its players. Of course they won't fine Murray though. But I wonder what the reaction would be if a player said they suspected Murray was a drug cheat?

Are you anti freedom of speech?

You dissect whatever you want if it makes you feel good lydian and for those that are all ears. However, there are clearly flaws in your premise as when Murray retires he will do so with an impressive set of stats considering who his chief opponents have been. The fact he has two slam wins, many slam final appearances, an Olympic Gold, a Davis Cup, around top 30 for most all-time ATP match wins and lots more then that says he has far fewer flaws than some would have us believe. Over-analysis is being done on Murray as far as I am concerned. He is one of the very best players in the world just now but as I have said elsewhere when push comes to shove he comes up short against players who are all-time greats. No disgrace there at all considering his second serve weakness and ability to go on mental walkabouts in big matches. Your forehand anaylsis may be of interest to some and I really am no expert so you may be right but I would put more emphasis on his lavk of slam wins in the last couple of years on back surgery and just coming up against players in better nick than him form-wise.

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I hate to break your heart hawkeye but Roger Federer also holds strong views on the subject as well and has fequently called for much more tests to be carried out. But hey ho I hear another Carry On film is in the making just now well I propose it to be called Carry On Doping.

Did Federer call Murray a drug cheat? Do you really not know the difference? Murray's slurs apply to himself. As far as I can see he is the "fittest" on the tour. He is just ****** because he can't beat players that are better than him. Disgraceful! If he knows anything he should go to WADA and not cry to the press.

This is what Murray said

"I have played against players and thought, 'They won't go away' or 'They don't seem to be getting tired. Have I ever been suspicious of someone? Yeah. You hear things.

"It's harder to tell in our sport as people can make big improvements to a stroke or start serving better because they have made technical changes.

"If it's purely physical and you're watching someone playing six-hour matches over and over and showing no signs of being tired, you'd look at that."

"When someone like Sharapova is banned, I see that as being a positive," he added. "If that stuff is happening and you don't hear about it, I have a big issue because it's like the sport is covering up for the big stars."

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/tennis/boris-becker-hits-back-at-andy-murrays-claims-over-doping_sto5450102/story.shtml

He definitely isn't the fittest on tour. That's pure nonsense. He also doesn't appear to name anyone in that quote (other than Maria) so who do you think he's calling a drug cheat? It's an entirely sensible stance to take and it would be good if other players followed his example.

temporary21 wrote:He didnt throw s***  at anyone, he just noted that he thought people sometimes demonstrated anomalous powers of endurance and that he wasn't. Thats a general statement, there nothing libellous about it.
No player, sponsor, or whatever was specifically targeted. to spell this out

HE HASNT CALLED ANYONE A CHEAT...

Dont think you can completely ignore that, and cc et al not pick up on it

He didn't name names but this was no general statement. He said he had been suspicious of "someone" and said that he had heard talk. He then added enough to throw suspicion on particular players. Boris was quite rightly furious because his allegations were far more than a general call for more drug testing and looked more like a specific slur on particular players. Of course the ones that beat him.

But CC, you aren't really looking at the bigger picture.
If we look outside the top 6 say, i.e. still great and top players in the world as you would say, I could pick easy flaws in all these players...the Tsongas, Berdychs, Raonics, etc...Murray is much more technically sound than these guys. So what?

Compared to the other top 4 guys, i.e. those he has to beat to win MORE slams, he has some important issues holding his game back. We haven't even got onto his 2nd serve yet. Djokovic, Nadal and Federer are all making their games better...this is another reason they may be pulling away from Murray in H2Hs. They can also rely on their technique that little bit more at the crucial moments, or when they get tired they make less mistakes because they have less flaws. This in turns creates a tougher mental outlook, knowing your game can go for longer. When we watch Murray, generally by set 3-4 in a slam more FH errors creep in, often at crucial moments, like when he tops the ball into the net. This doesn't tend to happen to the others he's challenging for slams.

Yes his back surgery may have been a factor...but my point is that the back surgery is actually a result of issues in his game anyway. Lets' see...maybe Murray will do better this year and maybe we'll see some changes in technique when we come back to wonder what's changed. If you really wanted to see Murray do better you would surely be interested to know what Mauresmo is doing to address some of the issues in his game...? Because if he's doing nothing on his technique then he's actually going backwards vs. the other top 4.

I feel that Nishikori is too flat and aggressive ball striker at times. Yes this is a good thing in general but the problem is that if plan A is not working he doesn't fall back on B. Some days you can play that style and have great success. Somedays you got to use your legs, got to use your ability to grind and survive when you aren't in full flow. And sometimes you just have to play that way maybe for part of a match till you find your range.

Great for Nadal, he is striking the ball well, I have said all year long that I thought he would be able to rebuild come the European clay court season. He is building momentum up to RG like he used to do in his heyday. Frankly, I didn't doubt for one second that come FO he would be a different Nadal than the one we have seen last 18 months or so.

So I make that 9 Monte Carlos, 9 Barcelonas, and 9 French Opens. Is that right? Which one will he get 10 of first?

Rafa is starting this clay court season much like Rafa of old used to start clay court seasons. My impression is that he is not playing at quite the same level he played in the old days but certainly better than at any time during 2015-16.

I still favor Djokovic for RG, but it is getting closer.

hawkeye wrote:

temporary21 wrote:He didnt throw s***  at anyone, he just noted that he thought people sometimes demonstrated anomalous powers of endurance and that he wasn't. Thats a general statement, there nothing libellous about it.
No player, sponsor, or whatever was specifically targeted. to spell this out

HE HASNT CALLED ANYONE A CHEAT...

Dont think you can completely ignore that, and cc et al not pick up on it

He didn't name names but this was no general statement. He said he had been suspicious of "someone" and said that he had heard talk. He then added enough to throw suspicion on particular players. Boris was quite rightly furious because his allegations were far more than a general call for more drug testing and looked more like a specific slur on particular players. Of course the ones that beat him.

There's a big difference between being suspicious and making allegations you wantwit!

lydian wrote:But CC, you aren't really looking at the bigger picture.
If we look outside the top 6 say, i.e. still great and top players in the world as you would say, I could pick easy flaws in all these players...the Tsongas, Berdychs, Raonics, etc...Murray is much more technically sound than these guys. So what?

Compared to the other top 4 guys, i.e. those he has to beat to win MORE slams, he has some important issues holding his game back. We haven't even got onto his 2nd serve yet. Djokovic, Nadal and Federer are all making their games better...this is another reason they may be pulling away from Murray in H2Hs. They can also rely on their technique that little bit more at the crucial moments, or when they get tired they make less mistakes because they have less flaws. This in turns creates a tougher mental outlook, knowing your game can go for longer. When we watch Murray, generally by set 3-4 in a slam more FH errors creep in, often at crucial moments, like when he tops the ball into the net. This doesn't tend to happen to the others he's challenging for slams.

Yes his back surgery may have been a factor...but my point is that the back surgery is actually a result of issues in his game anyway. Lets' see...maybe Murray will do better this year and maybe we'll see some changes in technique when we come back to wonder what's changed. If you really wanted to see Murray do better you would surely be interested to know what Mauresmo is doing to address some of the issues in his game...? Because if he's doing nothing on his technique then he's actually going backwards vs. the other top 4.

All players have flaws though lydian and to try to coach it out of players at the age of 29 when it is engrained into them well it just ain't going to happen especially on something like a forehand technique. Murray, like every other tennis player that has ever played the game, has to make do with what they have been endowed with. I think you are making the error of expecting legend-esque stats/results from a player not on that plateau.

Craig, I think you are taking Lydian's dissection of Murray's FH technique or the technical flaws in his game to severly. I think Lydian did make the point that of course we are talking relative weaknesses compared to the other great parts of their game. For example, Novak could have a little more miles per hour when he flattens it out on his first serve. And Novak has a poor overhead. I mean there has been a lot of controversy swirling around tennis these days and maybe its getting heated. But, I think its a good thing to get into the nuances and distinctions even among the best of players, I mean that is why there is like a billion posts on GOAT discussions. There is a reason that Murray's FH is a nod poorer than the other three members of the big 4. And just saying consistency is vague, what could cause a breakdown under pressure if not a technical flaw. I mean there can be other reasons but that is one of the first things one should look at.

PS you are as entitled as any of course to not buy his arguments Craig. I personally don't agree with Lydian on many topics, but it shouldn't annoy you if we want to dissect all these guys shots and draw distinctions at the highest level.

The whole analysis came on a thread about an 'amazing stat'. A stat that Murray has not beaten the top players many times in recent times is NOT amazing if we consider that lydian does not rate Murray. To somehow believe that his poor forehand/or forehand technique plays a part in these stats is wrong. His forehand is what it is and has been that way for his time as a professional so plays no part in this 'amazing stat' analysis.

It just seems that if someone came from Planet Zog and dropped in on this forum they'd read the over-analysis and down talking of Murray and misconceive him  placing him lower than those whose even greater flaws aren't ever analysed.

At the end of the day lydian's analysis and opinion of Murray is all fair and well as long as it is that - fair. As in with the ability to reason that Murray is one of the best players of his generation who has flaws compared to those above him in the pecking order but has traits also that has served him very well enough to mean he stands above those just outside the top four tennis players in the tennis world. It just would be nice to also here about what Murray does so well to counter-balance the negativity.

CaledonianCraig wrote:to try to coach it out of players at the age of 29 when it is engrained into them well it just ain't going to happen especially on something like a forehand technique. Murray, like every other tennis player that has ever played the game, has to make do with what they have been endowed with. I think you are making the error of expecting legend-esque stats/results from a player not on that plateau.

1. Well Lendl made it happen...why not another coach? Also, Nadal has changed his FH technique since 2011-12 why not Murray? Maybe Nadal works harder on stuff like that? Or has more ability to adapt/grow his game?
2. I think I made the "error" of analysing Murray right? ;-)
3. Agreed he's not on that plateau, the analysis is to show WHY and that perhaps he COULD have been if he'd been able to address these gremlins earlier...it seems Lendl realised what was going on but by then it was likely too late to sustain the changes. It should have been down to Petchy, Gilbert, etc in the early days to move him to a different technique. That might have delayed his progress vs what he did as a 18-20 year old but would have yielded longer term benefit. Or maybe they tried but Murray didn't want to know...we'll never know.
4. You're taking this too personally. I already said I was happy to move the analysis onto BH, serve, etc and we know Murray has one of the best BHs out there. I kind of feel well what's the point though...some people are just happy to have Murray lauded as a great player and leave it at that, some simple armchair analysis and top line caveats on why he's not pushed on since Lendl. The issue though is that you're not pushing this discussion on cc, just sniping at its basis because you don't like what it's saying.

You go ahead lydian if it makes you feel better but anslysis is best done by people with no emotions involved on the subject. You let your guard slip last night to how you feel about Murray so fair analysis is off the agenda I'd say.

You can analyse probably better than anyone on this forum (that is not up for debate lydian) I just feel there is analysis and over-analysis and this is the latter for me. For me Lendl's greatest asset as coach was changing/improving Murray's belief and mentality which in turn always improves Murray's all-round game.

I am a realist as far as Murray is concerned and what to expect/hope for in terms of his final career resume. If he ends up with what he has done at a time of a GOAT and two potential GOAT wannabes breathing down the GOAT's neck then how can I be disappointed?

Lydian, thought your 'analysis' might have referred more to the fact that Murray had a major wrist injury in 2007 which pegged his early career back; and trusting his forehand again, both physically and mentally took a long while.
Have you ever seen Murray playing in person? Afraid for me, you showed your hand by describing Murray as some sort of overweight hacker lumbering around the court. This is not the Murray I see live on court. Your agenda was just a little too transparent methinks.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

temporary21 wrote:He didnt throw s***  at anyone, he just noted that he thought people sometimes demonstrated anomalous powers of endurance and that he wasn't. Thats a general statement, there nothing libellous about it.
No player, sponsor, or whatever was specifically targeted. to spell this out

HE HASNT CALLED ANYONE A CHEAT...

Dont think you can completely ignore that, and cc et al not pick up on it

He didn't name names but this was no general statement. He said he had been suspicious of "someone" and said that he had heard talk. He then added enough to throw suspicion on particular players. Boris was quite rightly furious because his allegations were far more than a general call for more drug testing and looked more like a specific slur on particular players. Of course the ones that beat him.

There's a big difference between being suspicious and making allegations you wantwit!

This is the comment by CC that prompted me to get involved in this discussion

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I now await the inquests to crop up here about Nishikori's forehand/fitness/mentality as Murray got the same for losing to Rafa in Monte Carlo albeit Murray actually won a set. But you know what? I won't hold my breath.

Well if Kei makes ***** comments to the media dissing his opponents like Murray did no doubt he will attract the same sort of attention. But I wouldn't hold my breath because not all players are quite so... um... not nice.

You might think that what Murray said was OK but if he is going to imply that anyone who beats him should be investigated he should expect some **** thrown back at him. As far as I can see he is lucky not to have been fined and/or suspended from the tour for his damaging comments. If he has suspicions he should take them to WADA if he knows nothing then he should keep his mouth shut. Federer, Rafa and Novak don't beat Murray because they are fitter than him they beat him because they are better. Murray sounds like a sore loser for attempting to imply anything else. His fans are deluded too if they want to make idiotic arguments about why Murray is "really" better than them and stupid excuses for when he loses.

sorry wrong emoticon

Just watched a few clips from the Barcelona final. Looked a fine match. Rafa looks well placed to have a good crack at the French.
You may well have seen Rafa is up to number two in the year-so-far rankings. Could turn out it will be his year-end position, too.

sportslover wrote: sorry wrong emoticon

The emoticon I'd use sadly is not an option here.

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

temporary21 wrote:He didnt throw s***  at anyone, he just noted that he thought people sometimes demonstrated anomalous powers of endurance and that he wasn't. Thats a general statement, there nothing libellous about it.
No player, sponsor, or whatever was specifically targeted. to spell this out

HE HASNT CALLED ANYONE A CHEAT...

Dont think you can completely ignore that, and cc et al not pick up on it

He didn't name names but this was no general statement. He said he had been suspicious of "someone" and said that he had heard talk. He then added enough to throw suspicion on particular players. Boris was quite rightly furious because his allegations were far more than a general call for more drug testing and looked more like a specific slur on particular players. Of course the ones that beat him.

There's a big difference between being suspicious and making allegations you wantwit!

This is the comment by CC that prompted me to get involved in this discussion

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I now await the inquests to crop up here about Nishikori's forehand/fitness/mentality as Murray got the same for losing to Rafa in Monte Carlo albeit Murray actually won a set. But you know what? I won't hold my breath.

Well if Kei makes ***** comments to the media dissing his opponents like Murray did no doubt he will attract the same sort of attention. But I wouldn't hold my breath because not all players are quite so... um... not nice.

You might think that what Murray said was OK but if he is going to imply that anyone who beats him should be investigated he should expect some **** thrown back at him. As far as I can see he is lucky not to have been fined and/or suspended from the tour for his damaging comments. If he has suspicions he should take them to WADA if he knows nothing then he should keep his mouth shut. Federer, Rafa and Novak don't beat Murray because they are fitter than him they beat him because they are better. Murray sounds like a sore loser for attempting to imply anything else. His fans are deluded too if they want to make idiotic arguments about why Murray is "really" better than them and stupid excuses for when he loses.

If Charles Darwin saw this comment amongst others, I think he'd hit the bottle and scrap the notion of 'evolution'!

What does CC making a comment about technical aspects of the game have to do with Murray and **** throwing? Read what CC said and then comment accordingly. You 2 have managed to stray from the original topic quite spectacularly.

I won't address the rest of your empty rant, because it is just that.

I suspect that one needs to be a competent analyser to determine whether something is under or over analysed.  

I also suspect those with an emotional investment in a player will find it difficult to clear themselves of that same emotion when engaging with the results of an analysis of that player.

Anyway as temporary21 has rightly noticed this thread has been diverted.  Look SirFredPerry wants to talk about Barcelona.  The Reign in Spain Falls mainly on the racket of Nadal. SirFred I still think Djokovic will beat Nadal at the French Open but I have great expectations that Nadal can beat everybody else.

lydian wrote:But CC, you aren't really looking at the bigger picture.
If we look outside the top 6 say, i.e. still great and top players in the world as you would say, I could pick easy flaws in all these players...the Tsongas, Berdychs, Raonics, etc...Murray is much more technically sound than these guys. So what?

Compared to the other top 4 guys, i.e. those he has to beat to win MORE slams, he has some important issues holding his game back. We haven't even got onto his 2nd serve yet. Djokovic, Nadal and Federer are all making their games better...this is another reason they may be pulling away from Murray in H2Hs. They can also rely on their technique that little bit more at the crucial moments, or when they get tired they make less mistakes because they have less flaws. This in turns creates a tougher mental outlook, knowing your game can go for longer. When we watch Murray, generally by set 3-4 in a slam more FH errors creep in, often at crucial moments, like when he tops the ball into the net. This doesn't tend to happen to the others he's challenging for slams.

Yes his back surgery may have been a factor...but my point is that the back surgery is actually a result of issues in his game anyway. Lets' see...maybe Murray will do better this year and maybe we'll see some changes in technique when we come back to wonder what's changed. If you really wanted to see Murray do better you would surely be interested to know what Mauresmo is doing to address some of the issues in his game...? Because if he's doing nothing on his technique then he's actually going backwards vs. the other top 4.

But you correctly identify on the other thread that the reason for the difference in technique between Murray and the others is due to the fact he will have grown up on fast courts and therefore has a more classical forehand technique than the others, all of whom grew up on clay. Given that, surely the point to be made is how astonishingly talented he must be to even be in the mix? He has had to adapt his game more than the others due to the prevalent conditions and yet he has won titles on clay and been in 3 or 4 RG SFs.

Of course, as I pointed out, you also chose a Murray forehand which he is playing off the back foot and which also looks like it is from about 2007/08 (possibly around the time he was recovering from a serious wrist injury).

sirfredperry wrote:Just watched a few clips from the Barcelona final. Looked a fine match. Rafa looks well placed to have a good crack at the French.
  You may well have seen Rafa is up to number two in the year-so-far rankings. Could turn out it will be his year-end position, too.

He certainly looks much more stronger and convincing on the FH then compared with last year. The BH still looks a liability. The depth is not quite there. You can see that he is trying to get on the FH with every opportunity.

Yep...we're off OP here...but I'll just reply one last time and move on.
I don't see why we're discussing the 2007 wrist injury...nothing changed after that, he just had to recover. And weightwise I've never called Andy overweight, just that he's a large powerful guy, that's bound to strain his body at the prodigious speed he moves it around court. Remember, it was Jamie Baker that called him a tank...I was just agreeing. And sure BS, Andy has done well to adapt to slower courts although of course we know he was shipped out to Barcelona at 15 for that very reason. Look, I'm not denying Andy is a great player, his technique in most parts of the game is exemplary and his movement is exceptional. We're talking about differences in his FH technique which is what separates him from the rest of the top 4 (and his 2nd serve). In summary...he plays FH in open, neutral and closed stances (as all pros do). But the main issue is that he tends to play off the back foot more than the top guys plus he lacks extension through the shot because he tends to play a windscreen wiper motion (pocket to pocket) more than Fed/Nad/Djo rather than extending forwards into the court. This is likely because of leaning back...a weight transfer aspect. This tends to mean he lacks power at the highest level, I think much of this is due to him being a counterpuncher/defensive player so learnt his movement into/through the FH from that basis, he wasn't used to pushing all his weight forward as say Federer would do. Lendl knew this and got him using more power by extending through the shot more, plus working on DTL & outwide ("Outside Hop" FH) power too but all that seems to have strained Andy and it seems to me he's reverting back to a more pre-2012 whippy style approach. Which is still an effective FH vs. nearly all players. Andy probably feels he can make this whippier shot work better as its more consistent for him, strains the back less and so he'll use his power more selectively. These are the main reasons I feel things have changed since 2012/13. Its not to denigrate the guy, its to explain - IMO - what has been the reason for him going backwards in terms of slam results and H2H vs top 4. Anyway...time to move on...back to OP!

lydian wrote:CC, how many more times do I have to make it crystal clear for you. I use the term "relative weakness(es)" all the time when referring to Murray. Sure he's had success...great for him...but when compared against the very best he doesn't quite match up. That's what I analyse. Sure I could talk about what he does well, as I could about the whole ATP tour...footwork, returning basic techniques, etc, etc. But at the highest level it's what separates the guys that counts.
Yes I don't care the guy, he moans on court, feels his back/arm/leg whatever every time he loses a point and even blames his box when things are going wrong, he's not an aspirational player to watch for juniors or anyone else. Outside of patriotism I don't see what attraction there is in watching Murray but hey, each to their own. However, my analysis of Murray is unbiased and not driven by how I feel about the guy. It's a technically oriented discussion. If you don't like it then feel free to unpick it and disagree. If you can't or don't want to then fine but it's a free world and I'll analyse whoever I want to...especially a player who was winning 50% of matches against the top 4 up to 2012 but since is down to 17%...that's rather curious for a 2 time slammer I'd say. This is why I'm discussing it.

My posit is that much of it is technique driven. If you're not aware, Rafa, Djokovic and Federer haven't stood still since 2012 either...they continue t work on their technique. Rafa's FH has changed, Federer's BH too...what has Murray changed? I'm all ears CC...

Of course he's an aspirational player to watch. He has possibly the greatest double handed backhand in the game, excellent technique all-round and a wide variety of shots. He also seems to train with total dedication and has a keen interest in the game. All the big 4 are great role models, albeit Rafa's cheating through time-wasting and on court coaching are issues which should have been properly addressed many years ago. Those parts of his methodology are setting an extremely poor example to kids.

Remember, not Rafa's fault!

Sure BS...you wont see me defending Rafa's time wasting. Stretching that to so called "cheating" is another topic entirely. Sure Murray works hard, but juniors don't see that. His on court persona, at least to me, isn't positive. I'd rather juniors followed Federer's or Nadal's example of staying calm and not sending signals to your opponent that you're getting stressed out. Given his stated suitability of being a role model...the Davis Cup trophy tour kicked off in Yorkshire 2 days ago - an ideal photo-opportunity for Murray to be that winning role model to British Juniors, to reinforce the famous victory and rub shoulders with the grass roots around the country...he's taking 3 weeks break between clay tournaments (MC to Madrid), so where is he? Well, he wasn't there...Kyle Edmunds kicked it off instead.

Oh hasn't this become so predictable.. signs of the old Rafa on is way back and thus here come the snipes... and before Temp enters the fray YES I KNOW there is a sticky for this topic but remember I never introduced it so don't be surprised that I retaliate... I am not defending Rafa and never have  But if we are to call it "cheating," Nishikori did so yesterday, as Murray did against Rafa in MC and as Raonic does continually.
But of course lk its not their fault  OK temp Ive had my say

lydian wrote:Sure BS...you wont see me defending Rafa's time wasting. Stretching that to so called "cheating" is another topic entirely. Sure Murray works hard, but juniors don't see that. His on court persona, at least to me, isn't positive. I'd rather juniors followed Federer's or Nadal's example of staying calm and not sending signals to your opponent that you're getting stressed out. Given his stated suitability of being a role model...the Davis Cup trophy tour kicked off in Yorkshire 2 days ago - an ideal photo-opportunity for Murray to be that winning role model to British Juniors, to reinforce the famous victory and rub shoulders with the grass roots around the country...he's taking 3 weeks break between clay tournaments (MC to Madrid), so where is he? Well, he wasn't there...Kyle Edmunds kicked it off instead.

Sure - Murray's on-court demeanour could be better and I would much prefer he was more "Borg" like. However, that's one aspect of his game and there is a lot kids can learn from the way he performs on court (and conducts himself off-court). To suggest he is someone who is effectively not a good role model doesn't seem an accurate portrayal.

As for the Davis Cup tour, I've no idea what he is doing currently. Perhaps he has decided to spend as much time as possible with his new baby. You can't seriously be suggesting he doesn't do enough for British tennis?

No, just thinking that was an excellent opportunity missed to enhance his role model status with juniors, I'm sure a chauffeured limo to/fro Leeds wouldn't have been a huge amount of time out.

lydian wrote:No, just thinking that was an excellent opportunity missed to enhance his role model status with juniors, I'm sure a chauffeured limo to/fro Leeds wouldn't have been a huge amount of time out.

Oh, I agree but he doesn't usually strike me as someone who avoids that sort of role so maybe there is a reason he isn't there? Have to say, personally I hope he is training hard as i think he lost a bit of sharpness with the break in Feb.

lydian wrote:No, just thinking that was an excellent opportunity missed to enhance his role model status with juniors, I'm sure a chauffeured limo to/fro Leeds wouldn't have been a huge amount of time out.

Conversely couldn't Henman come out of the ivory towers of Wimbledon to make an appearance? Or even Fleming who is TD at Queens?

I am sure these guys who have a much more limited calendar than Murray could do more for juniors.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

temporary21 wrote:He didnt throw s***  at anyone, he just noted that he thought people sometimes demonstrated anomalous powers of endurance and that he wasn't. Thats a general statement, there nothing libellous about it.
No player, sponsor, or whatever was specifically targeted. to spell this out

HE HASNT CALLED ANYONE A CHEAT...

Dont think you can completely ignore that, and cc et al not pick up on it

He didn't name names but this was no general statement. He said he had been suspicious of "someone" and said that he had heard talk. He then added enough to throw suspicion on particular players. Boris was quite rightly furious because his allegations were far more than a general call for more drug testing and looked more like a specific slur on particular players. Of course the ones that beat him.

There's a big difference between being suspicious and making allegations you wantwit!

This is the comment by CC that prompted me to get involved in this discussion

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I now await the inquests to crop up here about Nishikori's forehand/fitness/mentality as Murray got the same for losing to Rafa in Monte Carlo albeit Murray actually won a set. But you know what? I won't hold my breath.

Well if Kei makes ***** comments to the media dissing his opponents like Murray did no doubt he will attract the same sort of attention. But I wouldn't hold my breath because not all players are quite so... um... not nice.

You might think that what Murray said was OK but if he is going to imply that anyone who beats him should be investigated he should expect some **** thrown back at him. As far as I can see he is lucky not to have been fined and/or suspended from the tour for his damaging comments. If he has suspicions he should take them to WADA if he knows nothing then he should keep his mouth shut. Federer, Rafa and Novak don't beat Murray because they are fitter than him they beat him because they are better. Murray sounds like a sore loser for attempting to imply anything else. His fans are deluded too if they want to make idiotic arguments about why Murray is "really" better than them and stupid excuses for when he loses.

If Charles Darwin saw this comment amongst others, I think he'd hit the bottle and scrap the notion of 'evolution'!

What does CC making a comment about technical aspects of the game have to do with Murray and **** throwing? Read what CC said and then comment accordingly. You 2 have managed to stray from the original topic quite spectacularly.

I won't address the rest of your empty rant, because it is just that.

Why do you think socal was prompted to put up his poll that started this whole why is Murray not as good as Novak discussion? Murray would do well to shut his mouth and concentrate on practicing his forehand.

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

temporary21 wrote:He didnt throw s***  at anyone, he just noted that he thought people sometimes demonstrated anomalous powers of endurance and that he wasn't. Thats a general statement, there nothing libellous about it.
No player, sponsor, or whatever was specifically targeted. to spell this out

HE HASNT CALLED ANYONE A CHEAT...

Dont think you can completely ignore that, and cc et al not pick up on it

He didn't name names but this was no general statement. He said he had been suspicious of "someone" and said that he had heard talk. He then added enough to throw suspicion on particular players. Boris was quite rightly furious because his allegations were far more than a general call for more drug testing and looked more like a specific slur on particular players. Of course the ones that beat him.

There's a big difference between being suspicious and making allegations you wantwit!

This is the comment by CC that prompted me to get involved in this discussion

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I now await the inquests to crop up here about Nishikori's forehand/fitness/mentality as Murray got the same for losing to Rafa in Monte Carlo albeit Murray actually won a set. But you know what? I won't hold my breath.

Well if Kei makes ***** comments to the media dissing his opponents like Murray did no doubt he will attract the same sort of attention. But I wouldn't hold my breath because not all players are quite so... um... not nice.

You might think that what Murray said was OK but if he is going to imply that anyone who beats him should be investigated he should expect some **** thrown back at him. As far as I can see he is lucky not to have been fined and/or suspended from the tour for his damaging comments. If he has suspicions he should take them to WADA if he knows nothing then he should keep his mouth shut. Federer, Rafa and Novak don't beat Murray because they are fitter than him they beat him because they are better. Murray sounds like a sore loser for attempting to imply anything else. His fans are deluded too if they want to make idiotic arguments about why Murray is "really" better than them and stupid excuses for when he loses.

If Charles Darwin saw this comment amongst others, I think he'd hit the bottle and scrap the notion of 'evolution'!

What does CC making a comment about technical aspects of the game have to do with Murray and **** throwing? Read what CC said and then comment accordingly. You 2 have managed to stray from the original topic quite spectacularly.

I won't address the rest of your empty rant, because it is just that.

Why do you think socal was prompted to put up his poll that started this whole why is Murray not as good as Novak discussion? Murray would do well to shut his mouth and concentrate on practicing his forehand.

Because he had a difference of opinion with others.

Murray is entitled to speak his mind. All he has said is that in his mind he has had his suspicions and even confirmed that he heard "rumours" now whether that is the locker room talk is purely speculation. I will say he is better placed to say such things than you or I.

Murray and Federer have both asked for more to be done on the testing side. It's time that doping isn't treated as such a taboo and dirty subject and that sport confronts this. I don't see the issue. I am sure if it was Nadal making comments like this raising suspicions over the competition, I am sure you'd be getting that lipstick out ready to land one on the man's buttcheeks.

Born Slippy wrote:

Of course he's an aspirational player to watch. He has possibly the greatest double handed backhand in the game, excellent technique all-round and a wide variety of shots. He also seems to train with total dedication and has a keen interest in the game. All the big 4 are great role models, albeit Rafa's cheating through time-wasting and on court coaching are issues which should have been properly addressed many years ago. Those parts of his methodology are setting an extremely poor example to kids.

Murray a role model  Good grief! We all know he's good at hitting a tennis ball but the thought that anyone would see his atrocious on court behavior as anything to emulate beggars belief. IMO he should have been disqualified for his behavior during his semi final with Rafa. It was a disgrace. Then he came off court and and made damaging comments about his fellow ATP players and the ATP tour itself. Should have been penalized by the ATP for that as well.

Rafa and Federer are two of the best ambassadors the sport has ever had. The tennis world should go down on their knees daily and thank God for their existence...

Born Slippy wrote: ... albeit Rafa's cheating through time-wasting and on court coaching are issues which should have been properly addressed many years ago. Those parts of his methodology are setting an extremely poor example to kids.

1) You have been found guilty of contempt of court of tennis.
2) Judge umpire of the court determines what is cheating and what is not. The judge umpire has never found Rafa guilty of cheating on court resulting in a lost game let alone a match.
3) This is totally irrelevant to the discussion of Andy Murray's weak forehand.
4) This is totally irrelevant to the subject OP of this thread.
5) The Reign in Barcelona falls mainly on the plain of Nadal's racket.

legendkillarV2. If Murray had just put forward the opinion that he wanted to be tested more frequently that would not have been a problem. But that is not what he said. If he has evidence then he should talk to WADA and not the Daily Mail. I don't think he has evidence though.

hawkeye wrote:legendkillarV2. If Murray had just put forward the opinion that he wanted to be tested more frequently that would not have been a problem. But that is not what he said. If he has evidence then he should talk to WADA and not the Daily Mail. I don't think he has evidence though.

It's suspicions HE. Suspicions. That in itself screams that he doesn't have evidence. You are totally wanting to interpret it in your own way so I see no reason to take this conversation forward. Try looking at what he said, rather than what he didn't.

hawkeye wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:

Of course he's an aspirational player to watch. He has possibly the greatest double handed backhand in the game, excellent technique all-round and a wide variety of shots. He also seems to train with total dedication and has a keen interest in the game. All the big 4 are great role models, albeit Rafa's cheating through time-wasting and on court coaching are issues which should have been properly addressed many years ago. Those parts of his methodology are setting an extremely poor example to kids.

Murray a role model  Good grief! We all know he's good at hitting a tennis ball but the thought that anyone would see his atrocious on court behavior as anything to emulate beggars belief. IMO he should have been disqualified for his behavior during his semi final with Rafa. It was a disgrace. Then he came off court and and made damaging comments about his fellow ATP players and the ATP tour itself. Should have been penalized by the ATP for that as well.

Rafa and Federer are two of the best ambassadors the sport has ever had. The tennis world should go down on their knees daily and thank God for their existence...

In the words of Victor Meldrew "I don't believe it"

Let's be honest "he" really is good for a laugh. Some of her posts have our office wetting themselves  

The best medication for her Murray OCD must be you lkv2 she must have a great collection of

Keep up the good work guys

Seems to me that hawkeye is more motivated to slag off murray for personal spite rather than actually debate whether he had a point

But then we always knew that...

hawkeye wrote:legendkillarV2. If Murray had just put forward the opinion that he wanted to be tested more frequently that would not have been a problem. But that is not what he said. If he has evidence then he should talk to WADA and not the Daily Mail. I don't think he has evidence though.

Yes you have to be careful what you insinuate. Were the tennis players British ? may have been but no proof of that. Were they professionals it appears not ?

https://www.606v2.com/t62734-british-doping-inquiry-involves-tennis-players

I think the main issue people have taken offence to Murray comments including Becker is it sounds like he is talking about Rafa and Novak. When I actually don't think he did mean them, he wouldn't want to suggest that in the sport he loves and I'm pretty sure he has a good relationship with the two of them.

I think he refers to plays he wouldn't expect to be able to keep running around when they do, not Novak and Rafa or even Roger who are constantly and business ends of tournaments so have incredible stamina as they have to.