Complete justice for the Hillsborough families....No compromising please !!

Let's have charges like Manslaughter and Perverting the course of justice please !!

Let's not try to pull a fast compromise and start doing those most at fault with charges like "Misuse of public office" offences...

Let us not have another Menendez travesty !!....

Some Parents aren't around to see the long awaiting and rightful verdict...The historic day !!.

Let's make sure they get the "Full Monty" (I love that saying)

Seen some disgraces in my time but puking over the brave victims of Hillsborough is right up there...

They deserve and should get better !!.....Give it to them !!.

Unlikely....S Yorks Chief Constable "resigns" after being suspended having already announced his desire to retire in November and was suspended on full pay. What chances he hasn't actually "fallen on his sword" and has been told he'll be taken care of if he decides to accept the push?

I want to see a few people in handcuffs for this...including several newspaper reporters/editors

Absolutely.....

Couldn’t agree more, Truss.

I grew up in Runcorn having being born in Liverpool and I can remember the days, weeks and months after Hillsborough very clearly. I was 12 when it happened. The whole town was in shock and a few people from Runcorn died at the game. We all knew someone who knew someone that had either been at the game or worse.

I can vividly remember the first school assembly we had after the tragedy and our then headmaster breaking down in tears He couldn't finish the talk he was giving us. Really sad times. He left the school a few months later and I've often wondered if Hillsborough had some bearing on that as he never seemed like the same person after that day.

27 years to wait for justice is nothing short of a national scandal. I really hope they get everything they go for in terms of prosecutions. Everything.

Good thing is the families have a huge PR machine with them....

Not like our Brazilian friend...

Not as easy to placate..

Something that I have never understood about this whole case and please dont shoot me for this but I would just like to understand.

Before I say what bothers me, I would like to state that I agree with the outcome of the hearing in that the lack of police action on the day led to fatalities and also the cover up since has been a disgrace.

However, I do not believe for one minute that the guy in charge knew that his actions would lead to what happened. I believe that he was frozen in shock at the time. But there is still no doubt that he should have allowed the gates onto the pitch to be opened and never opened the doors to the enclosure where the people died.

But this is the bit I dont understand and will be lambasted for no doubt.

Why do none of the fans seem to get any blame? They are seen purely as victims. Surely if people without tickets had not tried to charge into the ground illegally, then this wouldnt have happened? It seems that Liverpool fans are beyond criticism when it comes to this. The people who died, ironically, are the ones who paid for tickets.

Now none of this excuses the cover up by the police or the failure to act but surely, part of the blame must be attributed to the fans?

If it had been a fire instead of a crush, then the people who started the fire would be held accountable in the same way as the ones who locked them in? So why do the fans with no tickets get a free pass?

Obviously, this has been a horrible part of history and condolences to anyone who knew or had someone there. I am not trying to be provocative, I am just trying to understand.

I must have imagined that Sun front page....

Adam D wrote:Something that I have never understood about this whole case and please dont shoot me for this but I would just like to understand.

Before I say what bothers me, I would like to state that I agree with the outcome of the hearing in that the lack of police action on the day led to fatalities and also the cover up since has been a disgrace.

However, I do not believe for one minute that the guy in charge knew that his actions would lead to what happened. I believe that he was frozen in shock at the time. But there is still no doubt that he should have allowed the gates onto the pitch to be opened and never opened the doors to the enclosure where the people died.

But this is the bit I dont understand and will be lambasted for no doubt.

Why do none of the fans seem to get any blame? They are seen purely as victims. Surely if people without tickets had not tried to charge into the ground illegally, then this wouldnt have happened? It seems that Liverpool fans are beyond criticism when it comes to this. The people who died, ironically, are the ones who paid for tickets.

Now none of this excuses the cover up by the police or the failure to act but surely, part of the blame must be attributed to the fans?

If it had been a fire instead of a crush, then the people who started the fire would be held accountable in the same way as the ones who locked them in? So why do the fans with no tickets get a free pass?

Obviously, this has been a horrible part of history and condolences to anyone who knew or had someone there. I am not trying to be provocative, I am just trying to understand.

Bradford City Fire...who was prosecuted for starting that?

Irrespective of people without tickets trying to get in, the onus was on the Police to ensure order was maintained and they should have made efforts to ensure those with tickets and those without were separated (they do it at concerts all the time) and furthermore, they should have demanded the start of the game be delayed in the interests of public safety (the F.A. could surely not have refused on those grounds). Had they done so, they'd have had a better chance of ensuring there was no crush.

Even a delay of 30 mins would have saved lives.

I don't disagree with any of that dave. Still doesn't absolve those who didn't have tickets.

If a nightclub is full and all ticket.. and the security open the doors anyway and people die of overcrowding..You blame the late arrivals...

Not for me..

Adam D wrote:I don't disagree with any of that dave. Still doesn't absolve those who didn't have tickets.

How many people went, and still go, to games/events without tickets? Police saw the fervor of those wanting to get in a made the wrong decision.

"Those with tickets, move to the left, those with tickets move to the right. The start of the game is being delayed, we'll get you in before kick off, please remain calm...thank you!"

Efforts should have been made maximize safety and minimize risk to everyone present, but experienced police officers failed to make that call then lied about what did and didn't happened and sought to make others complicit in the error.

You live close to Hillsborough Dave ??..

You seem well informed and passionate about the subject..

Just a long time Liverpool supporter. I remember having a Saturday job and being gutted that I couldn't watch the match that day. I got home and asked my dad what the result was, he was nearly in tears when he told me what had happened.

Think Liverpool fans...the club....and the people from the area have come out of the whole episode with great credit..

I do believe that football fan culture as a whole should take some blame for what happened that day. This includes Liverpool fans, but I do not believe they did anything on this day that made them worthy of blame.

The Police (as a general label, and that is slightly unfair as some did all they could once they knew what was happening, with valiant attempts at resuscitation on the pitch etc) saw football fans as lower life-forms, lower class citizens. Their feelings at this time probably go along the lines of "its their own fault if they get hurt in there the scum" South Yorkshire Police were well known as being bad for this, the worst, with one person I know in such circles believing their attitude was "you bring your gang, and we'll bring our army" - they were up for the fight too.

But hooliganism was rife. The police had some rights to feel like they were fighting against the fans at most times, before or after violence/trouble. However, they had a duty of care and not only ignored it, but I believe vindictively encouraged the situation. They didnt care about the consequences as they were "only football fans." Did they know what was gonna happen? I don't think so, not fully. But they could have been spared by telling the truth after and admitting mistakes were made. The lies make it truly vindictive, and that probably goes above many local bobby and more into the corridors of power.

DAVE667 wrote:

Adam D wrote:I don't disagree with any of that dave. Still doesn't absolve those who didn't have tickets.

"Those with tickets, move to the left, those with tickets move to the right. The start of the game is being delayed, we'll get you in before kick off, please remain calm...thank you!"

I don't mean to be argumentative in any way, but you tell me that would have worked and we'll agree you're lying or naive. Wouldnt work with fans now, let alone then.

Do I think Liverpool fans were worst for this type of action? Yes. Do I think the Police dealt with it in a way that suggests they were acting in public safety? No. Do I think Police would have acted differently to these people if they were not football fans? Yes.

Gates are the crucial thing here...

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I do believe that football fan culture as a whole should take some blame for what happened that day. This includes Liverpool fans, but I do not believe they did anything on this day that made them worthy of blame.

The Police (as a general label, and that is slightly unfair as some did all they could once they knew what was happening, with valiant attempts at resuscitation on the pitch etc) saw football fans as lower life-forms, lower class citizens. Their feelings at this time probably go along the lines of "its their own fault if they get hurt in there the scum" South Yorkshire Police were well known as being bad for this, the worst, with one person I know in such circles believing their attitude was "you bring your gang, and we'll bring our army" - they were up for the fight too.

But hooliganism was rife. The police had some rights to feel like they were fighting against the fans at most times, before or after violence/trouble. However, they had a duty of care and not only ignored it, but I believe vindictively encouraged the situation. They didnt care about the consequences as they were "only football fans." Did they know what was gonna happen? I don't think so, not fully. But they could have been spared by telling the truth after and admitting mistakes were made. The lies make it truly vindictive, and that probably goes above many local bobby and more into the corridors of power.  

DAVE667 wrote:

Adam D wrote:I don't disagree with any of that dave. Still doesn't absolve those who didn't have tickets.

"Those with tickets, move to the left, those with tickets move to the right. The start of the game is being delayed, we'll get you in before kick off, please remain calm...thank you!"

I don't mean to be argumentative in any way, but you tell me that would have worked and we'll agree you're lying or naive. Wouldnt work with fans now, let alone then.

Do I think Liverpool fans were worst for this type of action? Yes. Do I think the Police dealt with it in a way that suggests they were acting in public safety? No. Do I think Police would have acted differently to these people if they were not football fans? Yes.

You don't know that and to be fair neither do I (even with 20/20 hindsight) but had the Police made the announcement and the incident still happened they'd have been in a position later to say that they took every available precaution to ensure the safety of those present whilst not disrupting the match. Get the stadium involved with the use of the P.A. system. Announce that the game is being delayed, be seen to be taking a pro-active stance. People wanted to go to a football match not start a riot so the chances are they'd have been more responsive to the messages being sent out.

I went to Ozz-Fest at Milton Keynes Bowl back in the early 90's. The queues for coaches back into the centre were horrific but the Police made sure everyone knew what was going on and where we needed to be. This was a group of several thousand pi$$ed up metalheads all tired and cranky but there was no bother and we couldn't fault the Police or they way they did their job....more importantly, no-one got hurt.

Many, many years ago when Villa won the league title we needed to go to Arsenal at the back end of the season to win in the league. Inevitably the number of people who attended far outstripped the number of tickets available. When you arrived and headed towards Highbury at a random place, lets say 300 yard from the ground anyone heading to the away end had to show a valid ticket to a cordon of police. If you did not have one you got no further, later down the road you went through the process again. As such nobody got to the ground without the ticket. This was pre Hillsborough so cannot be seen as a lesson learned, it was just a police force anticipating what issues they may have and proactively dealing with it.

There is a decent book about the Hillsborough incident I read, the authors name escapes me, but even allowing for the farce outside the ground it was poorly organised inside. I have been to Hillsborough countless times and in the Leppings Lane end you enter the away end centrally and at the time there were four segments, pens for all intents. As you enter centrally the entrance forks off, turn right or left and you end up in the outer pens, head forward, as it would be your natural inclination to do, as you can see the pitch straight in front you end up in the central pens where the tragedy happened. There was apparently nobody, be it police or stewards directing folk to the side pens, which were apparently underfilled. A simply measure such as stationing stewards or police to direct fans to the sides would almost certainly, if not averted the tragedy, slowed the speed or severity of it.

The whole fans should not have turned up without tickets argument has never one I have been persuaded by, it happens, always has always will, it is the job of the clubs, venues and police to put measures in place to deal with it. South Yorkshire police either failed to do this or put measures in place that were woefully inadequate, for this they are incompetent, for lying about their incompetence they are criminals and deserve whatever punishment is surely en route to them.

The amount of times myself and Red jumped on a train and off without paying when we were younger...People free load without consequences all the time...

Interesting contribution..Agree with it..

A terrible tragedy compounded by what always happens when incidents like these happen - panic - from fans and from authorities trying to make sense of it all.

The aftermath and cover-ups are a different argument but I'd assume on the day itself that everyone agrees nobody wished what did happen to have happened.  
The blame?  Crowd dynamics on an exciting day - nobody can ever truly predict where they'll go if something goes boom (chaos theory) - and ill-conceived stadium design and security installations.

It's great being wise in retrospect.  But I suppose the 'blame game' that followed was the part that sustained the aftermath right up to the present.

Blasé bollox....

The authorities screwed up and people died when they shouldn't have......Lives ruined forever..

"Oh well they didn't mean anything by it...Never mind hey..".

Adam D wrote:I don't disagree with any of that dave. Still doesn't absolve those who didn't have tickets.

Especially after what had happened at Heysel four years before.

I was wondering when the first idiot would turn up..

truss, somebody holding an opinion that differs to yours does not automatically qualify them as an idiot. Try and play nice for once.

Pretend I'm Tino and ignore my post

Nice that the self anointed emotion police turn up to tell contributors where the correct line is and down what path it goes.

It'll be a cold day in hell that I get marched into any cattle line.....

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Couldn’t agree more, Truss.

I grew up in Runcorn having being born in Liverpool and I can remember the days, weeks and months after Hillsborough very clearly.  I was 12 when it happened.  The whole town was in shock and a few people from Runcorn died at the game.  We all knew someone who knew someone that had either been at the game or worse.

I can vividly remember the first school assembly we had after the tragedy and our then headmaster breaking down in tears  He couldn't finish the talk he was giving us.  Really sad times.  He left the school a few months later and I've often wondered if Hillsborough had some bearing on that as he never seemed like the same person after that day.

27 years to wait for justice is nothing short of a national scandal.  I really hope they get everything they go for in terms of prosecutions.  Everything.

I arrived a couple of months after the tragedy and just got the aftermath...of Hillsborough. ..

Didn't realise how traumatic it was for those who weren't directly involved but had links to the area...

Enlightening post..

It is interesting as a much younger person to look back on it. theres a very interesting debate going on on a West Ham site about the tragedy, and that has weighed more in favour of Liverpool fans and behaviour of wagging in as contributory. I personally feel it is not Liverpool fans but football fans in general who would take that portion of blame; the culture was disgusting and they certainly made the police into the beast they became. However, the police classed them as scum and did not care what happened that day.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:theres a very interesting debate going on on a West Ham site about the tragedy, and that has weighed more in favour of Liverpool fans and behaviour of wagging in as contributory.

That's hardly surprising that a partisan site lays more of the blame at Liverpool fans than a neutral one would.  That's what football does to usually rational people, turns them into something else, morons in a lot of cases.  I'm sure Liverpool fans are as guilty of this as any, it's more an observation on how football tribalism clouds peoples judgement regularly.  I see it every Monday morning at work.  People think that wearing a shirt on their back means they can get away with saying/doing things they never would in a suit.

Hillsborough should go beyond what colour shirt you wear anyway.  It's about life and death, not Liverpool and Everton or Man Utd and West Ham.  It's about young boys and girls being crushed to death against their fathers chest.  It's about Trevor Hicks having to choose between leaving one of his daughters dying on the pitch and going with his other dying daughter to the hospital.  A choice that he should never have had to make.

The bottom line is, a group of independent people with access to far more information than us have completely exonerated the fans.  That is the important thing.  The blame lays with the police and their incompetence, and their sickening lies following the tragedy.  At the most basic human level, it is about closure and justice for parents who lost children, kids who lost fathers and siblings who lost each other.  Nothing else should matter and we should be both delighted that these people have justice and angry that it took 27 years to get it.

The right result re. the recent inquest report. Some points:

Assuming there's any criminal charges of individuals, I wonder where they'll get a non-biased jury from?

Can we not apply 2016 health and safety hindsight to 1989 please.

Presumably, not all the blame will be dumped onto Duckenfield?

It doesn't make it a valid position to take, but the daily football hooliganism etc of the late 70s/80s was bound to cloud police responses/attitudes. A question for those that saw it unfold on TV: what was your immediate reaction upon seeing the people spilling on to the pitch? I'd wager for huge numbers it was something along the lines of "FFS! Look at those idiot fans up to no good - again".

I'm sure many watching it on tv thought "Hey up, idiots!" but it became very apparent very quickly that something was dreadfully wrong and all those thoughts go right out of the window once that realization sets in.

In the days that followed I still remember (and will never forget) seeing a photo in the papers of a fan's face pressed up tight against the fence, flecks of blue paint on their lips and I always wondered how someone could stand by and take pictures instead of going to help. Then again when you consider that a certain paper then went and printed stories about fans robbing the dead and urinating on Police who were trying to help, then you get a better understanding of their mindset. ("I could help but if it gets serious then I have some great pictures")

An entire generation has grown up being told these lies and yes Heysel will always be (and rightfully so) a shameful episode in Liverpool's history that should never be forgotten or glossed over but Hillsborough should never be used as some kind of retribution or Karma.

DAVE667 wrote:I'm sure many watching it on tv thought "Hey up, idiots!" but it became very apparent very quickly that something was dreadfully wrong and all those thoughts go right out of the window once that realization sets in.

In the days that followed I still remember (and will never forget) seeing a photo in the papers of a fan's face pressed up tight against the fence, flecks of blue paint on their lips and I always wondered how someone could stand by and take pictures instead of going to help.  Then again when you consider that a certain paper then went and printed stories about fans robbing the dead and urinating on Police who were trying to help, then you get a better understanding of their mindset. ("I could help but if it gets serious then I have some great pictures")

An entire generation has grown up being told these lies and yes Heysel will always be (and rightfully so) a shameful episode in Liverpool's history that should never be forgotten or glossed over but Hillsborough should never be used as some kind of retribution or Karma.

Not sure if you're referring to my reference of Heysel or not but I should clarify that I never mentioned it as a serves-you-right to Liverpool fans.  I mentioned it because it does in part explain the actions of the police, it is understandable how they thought it made sense at the time to let them in rather than risk violent confrontation which may have seemed inevitable.  Unfortunately they didn't have in their ranks the latest Marvel superhero TrussMan and his amazing power of hindsight.

One wonders why someone would bring Heysel up.......Unless as a stick...

But it's not important.........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:One wonders why someone would bring Heysel up.......Unless as a stick...

But it's not important.........

It obviously is important if you keep reacting to it.

It was brought up, as already mentioned, as a possible explanation-in-part as to why the police acted as they did.

Hillsborough's not something that happened last week, it happened nearly 30 years ago when mass violence was not uncommon and Heysel was a good example of this, especially as it involves the same club and potentially some of the same people who didn't hold tickets and were trying to get into Hillsborough.

Galted wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:One wonders why someone would bring Heysel up.......Unless as a stick...

But it's not important.........

It obviously is important if you keep reacting to it.

It was brought up, as already mentioned, as a possible explanation-in-part as to why the police acted as they did.

Hillsborough's not something that happened last week, it happened nearly 30 years ago when mass violence was not uncommon and Heysel was a good example of this, especially as it involves the same club and potentially some of the same people who didn't hold tickets and were trying to get into Hillsborough.

This implies (it appears to me at least) that the Police were in full knowledge of the ability of some Liverpool fans to cause mayhem and death and yet when faced with a situation that once again had the potential for serious repercussions thought, "F*ck it, let's do nothing to ease the congestion and potential harm, let's just shove 'em all in the ground because what's the worst thing that could happen?"

By extension making the Police even more culpable for what happened.

BTW I'm not accusing you of making any comments about Heysel, apologies if I didn't make that clear.

DAVE667 wrote:

Galted wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:One wonders why someone would bring Heysel up.......Unless as a stick...

But it's not important.........

It obviously is important if you keep reacting to it.

It was brought up, as already mentioned, as a possible explanation-in-part as to why the police acted as they did.

Hillsborough's not something that happened last week, it happened nearly 30 years ago when mass violence was not uncommon and Heysel was a good example of this, especially as it involves the same club and potentially some of the same people who didn't hold tickets and were trying to get into Hillsborough.

This implies (it appears to me at least) that the Police were in full knowledge of the ability of some Liverpool fans to cause mayhem and death and yet when faced with a situation that once again had the potential for serious repercussions thought, "F*ck it, let's do nothing to ease the congestion and potential harm, let's just shove 'em all in the ground because what's the worst thing that could happen?"

By extension making the Police even more culpable for what happened.

BTW I'm not accusing you of making any comments about Heysel, apologies if I didn't make that clear.

No worries. I'm not excusing the police, but I think "full knowledge" is something that didn't apply to them (not that it ever does). They were unprepared and they panicked, then tried to cover their incompetence with bullsh*t.
But it seems that we're now expected to believe that the police were all guilty and that all the Liverpool fans on the day were victims and that to suggest otherwise is hugely offensive.

Whatever the case, I do hope the victims' families

"do get a massive payout" is how I meant to continue.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:theres a very interesting debate going on on a West Ham site about the tragedy, and that has weighed more in favour of Liverpool fans and behaviour of wagging in as contributory.

That's hardly surprising that a partisan site lays more of the blame at Liverpool fans than a neutral one would.  That's what football does to usually rational people, turns them into something else, morons in a lot of cases.  I'm sure Liverpool fans are as guilty of this as any, it's more an observation on how football tribalism clouds peoples judgement regularly.  I see it every Monday morning at work.  People think that wearing a shirt on their back means they can get away with saying/doing things they never would in a suit.

Hillsborough should go beyond what colour shirt you wear anyway.  It's about life and death, not Liverpool and Everton or Man Utd and West Ham.  It's about young boys and girls being crushed to death against their fathers chest.  It's about Trevor Hicks having to choose between leaving one of his daughters dying on the pitch and going with his other dying daughter to the hospital.  A choice that he should never have had to make.

The bottom line is, a group of independent people with access to far more information than us have completely exonerated the fans.  That is the important thing.  The blame lays with the police and their incompetence, and their sickening lies following the tragedy.  At the most basic human level, it is about closure and justice for parents who lost children, kids who lost fathers and siblings who lost each other.  Nothing else should matter and we should be both delighted that these people have justice and angry that it took 27 years to get it.

Emotively I agree. But I think you would also have to say there is a fair debate to be had over it, and I do believe it was contributory, just not in a way that changes the verdicts. I think Liverpool fans were the worse offenders for wagging, I just don't think it matters. I think the authorities had dealt with it before and have a duty of care for people regardless of whether they have committed a crime. Much like a drug user at a music festival still deserves care.

On this occasion the police failed at their duty. And not because they made silly mistakes, but because they didn't care enough about football fans.

Now, should we point a finger of blame at all football fans who were involved in hooliganism at that time?

I also think those Liverpool fans who do still go to games without tickets should be ashamed of themselves

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I also think those Liverpool fans who do still go to games without tickets should be ashamed of themselves

why? People go to gigs without tickets and people still get hurt. As long as touting exists people will always go looking for a late deal. Are only Liverpool's fans to be denied that chance?

I mean specifically to wag entry. Which happened at the champions league final a few years ago if I remember correctly. People getting in without tickets. If any one club should know not to do that its Liverpool fans and I think the ones who do it should be ashamed.

You can't blame the majority of Liverpool fans for a few idiots....

Like me condemning Brits because of a few thousand BNP voters..

Im not blaming the majority of Liverpool fans for a few idiots.

Six people to face charges..

Most welcome..