Bath sack M. Ford

Well it had to come didn't it? Surprised he hung on as long as he did. He should have gone after messing up with Sam Burgess let alone the day he publicly blamed his players for losing after a match. Yes you can tick players off as a coach but don't ever do it live on TV just after a game. I doubt the dressing room were enamored with him after that little outburst. Then if you take 9th position in the AP in to account well he just had to go. With a decent coach Bath will be back up there in no time.

Hmm, Burgess did contribute but more losing players like fearn then watching Slammin' Sam flounce off!

englandglory4ever wrote:Then if you take 9th position in the AP in to account well he just had to go. With a decent coach Bath will be back up there in no time.

Will they? The best I've seen them do is get to a play-off and lose. It doesn't really stop Bath getting talked up every season though. Why on earth Faletau went there I don't know.

They have massively underperformed this year mikey in terms of their individual players.

12 months ago Ford won Coach of the Year at the AP Awards Dinner, oh how the mighty are fallen.

Not sure why anyone brings up Burgess as Ford's fault, that was Lancaster's biggest error, with Ford having to try and clean up the mess created. Struggle to see Ford getting another job in England at the moment.

Shame, I do think Ford has something to offer. He's welcome at Edinburgh, and he can bring his son and Jonathan Joseph with him if he likes!!

I wonder whether Lancaster will be in the frame for this. It's a job with massive opportunities.

I doubt his Son will follow him anywhere at the moment.

LondonTiger wrote:12 months ago Ford won Coach of the Year at the AP Awards Dinner, oh how the mighty are fallen.

Not sure why anyone brings up Burgess as Ford's fault, that was Lancaster's biggest error, with Ford having to try and clean up the mess created. Struggle to see Ford getting another job in England at the moment.

When Burgess left the club to go back to NRL, Ford refused Burgess access to the changing rooms to say goodbye to his former team mates. Upset a few players as Burgess was very popular with the guys at Bath

True Raven wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:12 months ago Ford won Coach of the Year at the AP Awards Dinner, oh how the mighty are fallen.

Not sure why anyone brings up Burgess as Ford's fault, that was Lancaster's biggest error, with Ford having to try and clean up the mess created. Struggle to see Ford getting another job in England at the moment.

When Burgess left the club to go back to NRL, Ford refused Burgess access to the changing rooms to say goodbye to his former team mates.  Upset a few players as Burgess was very popular with the guys at Bath

He could've met them outside of his former office ?

My understanding was that Burgess, having refused to attend training while he made his mind up, wanted to go into the dressing room immediately before a game and explain his decision. After discussions with Stuart Hooper it was decided by Ford that was not appropriate. Burgess chose not to hang around.

The current year has been awful but I will be sorry to see him go, not least because I would worry about who would replace him.

The better premiership managers seen to be those who have quietly grow into their jobs over a number of years (Baxter, Young, McCall).

When Leicester have tried a high-profile candidate it always seems to have ended badly.

I'd probably stick a fiver as an outside bet on Gregor Townsend.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I'd probably stick a fiver as an outside bet on Gregor Townsend.

Big step down in rugby terms, although Bath a much nicer place than Glasgow....

Aye but money talks in this game. I think if Glasgow win the Pro12, Townsend will be off to either France or England.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I'd probably stick a fiver as an outside bet on Gregor Townsend.

Big step down in rugby terms, although Bath a much nicer place than Glasgow....

Having been to both I prefer Glasgae

LondonTiger wrote:My understanding was that Burgess, having refused to attend training while he made his mind up, wanted to go into the dressing room immediately before a game and explain his decision. After discussions with Stuart Hooper it was decided by Ford that was not appropriate. Burgess chose not to hang around.

This was it. Mr ego seemed to think his news was more important than the match. I don't think he was missed by many at the club.

Anyway I think Mike ford was pretty unpopular in the dressing room. When you are winning that doesn't matter so much but clearly when things start going wrong you need some unity.

The head of recruitment should follow shortly after. Replacing Stringer with Matwalu and Burgess with Denton were very poor errors. What Bath needed last summer was the acquisition of mobile and horrible tight five forwards with a tackle hungry blindside to replace Burgess when he left.

Tackle hungry blindside. Like Carl Fearns?

All jokes aside. Matt Garvey is that player and has been a beast for us in that role. But his injuries and the massive injuries in the second row are what hurt us upfront so much this year. Denton might turn out to be a good bit of business going forward. But 100% agree that matawalu / stringer deal was a shocker. Missing stringer contributed massively to our poor play. Replacing him with a bloke who can't pass or run a game at 9 just compounded it further.

Ford was mouthing off in a negative way about Burgess during the RWC. . How unnecessary was that. To have any player's coach dissing them in the press at such a time is unforgivable. He deserved the sack for that reason alone.

englandglory4ever wrote:Ford was mouthing off in a negative way about Burgess during the RWC. .  How unnecessary was that. To have any player's coach dissing them in the press at such a time is unforgivable. He deserved the sack for that reason alone.

Are you Stuart Lancaster?

yappysnap wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Ford was mouthing off in a negative way about Burgess during the RWC. .  How unnecessary was that. To have any player's coach dissing them in the press at such a time is unforgivable. He deserved the sack for that reason alone.

Are you Stuart Lancaster?

Nope, he is Slammin Sam's auntie. Would love to see some actual quotes to demostrate this mouthing off.

Not sure an aunty would or should have the tingly feelings e4e has for Slammin'.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure an aunty would or should have the tingly feelings e4e has for Slammin'.

Weeeeeeeeeelllll

Bathite, couldn't believe it when Bath didn't do more to keep Fearns. He fit the squad, could play 6 and 8, okay some injury issues but he was a beast for you guys. As for Denton, he's a show pony, could well turn out to be a good player but you're going to need two other players in the back row to do the dirty work for him.

100% agree on Stringer, Matawalu isn't an ideal foil for a young ten who likes to play flat.

I wonder if some of Bath's signings have been driven by what Bruce Craig wants, kind of like Abramovich at chelsea forcing signings on managers.

LondonTiger wrote:I wonder if some of Bath's signings have been driven by what Bruce Craig wants, kind of like Abramovich at chelsea forcing signings on managers.

I am sure you are right.

LondonTiger wrote:I wonder if some of Bath's signings have been driven by what Bruce Craig wants, kind of like Abramovich at chelsea forcing signings on managers.

That's what it feels like at times. 'Oohh he looks really quick let's sign him! And him, and him, and him...'.

Fwiw Quins interviewed the ex dragons coach, Townsend of Glasgow, Blackadder from Crusaders and a SA coach who I've forgotten Sao I guess all of them are open to the idea of coaching/DoR in the Jeff.

I see slamming still stirs feelings of inadequacy, hatred and smallness in 7.5.

englandglory4ever wrote:I see slamming still stirs feelings of inadequacy, hatred and smallness in 7.5.

I think you are projecting a little there, your humble username speaks volumes too.

munkian wrote:I doubt his Son will follow him anywhere at the moment.

Hi Munkian, Why is that? He seemed to follow him to Bath from Tigers?

Like a lot on here I do feel that his time had come - Bath have massively underperformed considering resources and squad.
Yes there has been a lot of disruption this season and there appears to be a lot of strange decisions re: recruitment, taking that into account perhaps more than just the Head coach/DOR should be dismissed.
Bring in a new coaching group and fresh start for next season.

You do like others have said...get the impression that Craig perhaps like to meddle a bit more than most owners...so that's something that might be a bit of a turn off for incoming candidates.

Having researched Ford's comments about Burgess, he was only critical after Slamming Sam flew back to Australia and confirmed he was breaking his contract. Up till that point he only had positive things to say to the press.

I suspect that fans of Sam are unable to believe their player could possibly ever fail, thus project their disbelief onto others as barbs. Problem for Sam was that despite being an outstanding RL forward, he was neither the quickest nor the most skillful. This is why he played prop - obviously very different from RU props but still tend to be the slowest forwards in RL. A great physical specimen, his greatest attributes were his strength when both tackling and when carrying the ball into contact. This is why most RU coaches/pundits etc felt he was best suited to being a back rower - where his strengths would be used more often. Sadly Bomber used Sam to try and solve a different problem, while Sam seemed unwilling to put the work in that was needed to become as good in RU as he was in RL.

Of course the Burgess episode unsettled Bath - but the two guys most to blame for this are Bomber and Sam.

propdavid_london wrote:

munkian wrote:I doubt his Son will follow him anywhere at the moment.

Hi Munkian, Why is that?  He seemed to follow him to Bath from Tigers?  

I guess because of the rumours circulating online re personal matters.

Ah - OK more to it then,,,

LondonTiger wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:

munkian wrote:I doubt his Son will follow him anywhere at the moment.

Hi Munkian, Why is that?  He seemed to follow him to Bath from Tigers?  

I guess because of the rumours circulating online re personal matters.

Yup yup

munkian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:

munkian wrote:I doubt his Son will follow him anywhere at the moment.

Hi Munkian, Why is that?  He seemed to follow him to Bath from Tigers?  

I guess because of the rumours circulating online re personal matters.

Yup yup

Somewhere on page 10 on the silly season II thread at the moment. Have also seen similar in comments on a guardian article about him leaving

englandglory4ever wrote:I see slamming still stirs feelings of inadequacy, hatred and smallness in 7.5.

You either don't remember my comments or didn't understand. I was one of the few jumping on board the wagon and calling for him to go to the wc. Of course he was a mediocre midfielder, perhaps that's why you're angry?

LT. Its pretty easy to find stuff showing that Ford was opposed to supporting SL and Burgess in their attempts to get him to play Centre. Ford had too many Centres and could not accommodate Burgess there. That's obvious to a blind man. To cover that up he wanted him to play flanker where he had less cover. He then went on to blame Burgess for moving on after being pulled from pillar to post by his own club coach who should have been supporting him. In my book that makes Ford a very bad coach indeed and solely responsible for the farce. To state that Denton was a better option than Burgess is just laughable.

Ford went against the England coaches and has rightfully paid the price. I'm very glad he's gone. You don't see Cockerill arguing in the press with EJ over where Manu should play.

http://theworldly.co.uk/sam-burgess-centre-or-flanker/

formerly known as Sam wrote:The head of recruitment should follow shortly after. Replacing Stringer with Matwalu and Burgess with Denton were very poor errors. What Bath needed last summer was the acquisition of mobile and horrible tight five forwards with a tackle hungry blindside to replace Burgess when he left.

Is it the players or the coaching? I personally think it's the coaching.

Bath haven't been great at developing their own players. Buying in players is fine if paired with good development of homegrown players/improving what you've got.

Big names don't always perform.

Compare Bath to the top 4 and you can see a stark contrast in player development.

Burgess was rushed by England for the RWC and it backfired. He was made a scapegoat.

He's not the first RL player to struggle for England rugby union in a RWC....... history repeating itself.

Unfortunately for Bath, Burgess doesn't have a son who will play for Bath.... Also Burgess I doubt has plans to become a Bath coach....

No 7&1/2 wrote:You either don't remember my comments or didn't understand. I was one of the few jumping on board the wagon and calling for him to go to the wc. Of course he was a mediocre midfielder, perhaps that's why you're angry?

My mum's side of the family are all RL - I have second cousins who played over 100 pro games for Halifax and Bradford. They were astonished that England would try and play Burgess in the centre. By doing so it highlighted his weaknesses (lack of speed, limited passing and no kicking) and negated his strengths (engine, strength and power). Burgess was never going to be a top flight centre, but if he had been willing to put in the effort he could have been a very fine back row forward. He was far too hyped and in the end ran back to NRL with his tail between his legs. A legend in RL probably the sensible decision - but also the easy one.

I don't think Burgess did that badly for England given the limited role to which he was assigned. Its all relative though (as in the general standard was not good) and it was much too early in his career. Given time he might have turned into a very destructive back rower.

There was a lot of pressure on him. Who knows how much the international exposure vs the pull of the familiar (and family) in league affected his decision about leaving Bath. If the story is correct - that he wanted to talk to the team about leaving before a game when that team might want to be focusing on something else - then that is not a good sign.

englandglory4ever wrote:
Ford went against the England coaches and has rightfully paid the price. I'm very glad he's gone. You don't see Cockerill arguing in the press with EJ over where Manu should play.

Actually when Toomua arrives next season you will definitely see Manu return to 13, regardless of whether or not EJ would prefer him to stay at 12. Obviously the difference between 12 and 13 is tiny compared to centre and backrow, but I have no doubt that Cockerill would play Manu at lock if he thought it was best for Tigers.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:
Ford went against the England coaches and has rightfully paid the price. I'm very glad he's gone. You don't see Cockerill arguing in the press with EJ over where Manu should play.

Actually when Toomua arrives next season you will definitely see Manu return to 13, regardless of whether or not EJ would prefer him to stay at 12. Obviously the difference between 12 and 13 is tiny compared to centre and backrow, but I have no doubt that Cockerill would play Manu at lock if he thought it was best for Tigers.

You may well be right about Cockerill I don't know him. But to me he looks like a man who wouldn't argue with England via the media. Something Ford did and it was a huge mistake as I'm sure he agrees now he's doing the gardening.

"If the story is correct - that he wanted to talk to the team about leaving before a game when that team might want to be focusing on something else - then that is not a good sign."

This bit of the story really does highlight the complete and utter breakdown in relations between Ford and Burgess. What exactly is "before a game"? Most people who hate Burgess will assume that it is exactly 2 seconds before kick-off and of course not a good time. Another possibility is that when all the players have first assembled before they've even thought about changing in to their playing kit. My guess it was more like the latter. Whichever way you spin it looks like Ford had it in for Burgess almost from day 1.

Except Ford obviously didn't have it in from him, he brought him to Union. Just unfortunate that he was chosen by Lancasters to play in a position not suited to him. And then wanted to go back to Aus.

In the end the only reason Burgess really affects Ford is the fact he upped sticks with missing his family etc and probably messed with his squad makeup, rushing into some decisions. Stringer and injuries affect the squad and performance more for me.

My take on this is. England wanted Burgess and negotiated with Bath to bring him in to the AP. Immediately the Bath coach felt that the player had been foisted on him. Not a goiod start to their relations. England wanted him to play in the centre. Bath at first obliged and actually played Burgess in the Centre. When all the other Centres became available, notably Eastmond, then the Centre position became decidedly crowded. Ford's solution was to move Burgess to 6 in order to prevent Eastmond from flouncing off on one. The bad feelings between coach, Burgess and England were fermenting nicely. Something would eventually give. Extreme media pressure coupled with the bad feelings at Bath Burgess decided to get out and return to RL where he felt much more welcome. This whole sorry saga was because of a clash of wills between Ford and Lancaster. Lancaster has remained tight lipped about the whole affair knowing that one word in the media would cause a firestorm. Ford on the other hand sort to do the opposite and has finally paid the price. I wonder how his early potatoes are doing?

Well England have always denied doing the deal and didn't provide money so think you're barking up the wrong tree straight away. Lancaster said he only didn't consider him at flanker due to his lack of lineout where he placed a good deal on his 6s. Ford has gone after this whole season not comments about Burgess, silly to suggest otherwise.

LondonTiger wrote:...Burgess was never going to be a top flight centre, but if he had been willing to put in the effort he could have been a very fine back row forward...

I think that's the problem.

There wasn't enough time for him to develop as a back row forward and make it to the World Cup. If he'd been played exclusively there in his club career, he perhaps would have kept his own expectations realistic. Ford put him in the centre not to please England, but as a way of getting him game time without exposing too much of his inexperience.

The problems started when Lancaster decided that Burgess could indeed fill a role for England at centre, albeit limited, and the squad would benefit from his confidence and composure.

Burgess came away from the World Cup thinking that he hadn't let anyone down at centre in the most important competition - and he hadn't - but he was now going to have to demonstrate his worth again, with no guarantee that he still had a place in England's thinking.

I can understand why he might have felt like he was starting from scratch for a second time when he had only been prepared to do so once. I still think he should have stayed with union and followed through on his commitment but I can see why he didn't.

cb wrote:The current year has been awful but I will be sorry to see him go, not least because I would worry about who would replace him.

The better premiership managers seen to be those who have quietly grow into their jobs over a number of years (Baxter, Young, McCall).

When Leicester have tried a high-profile candidate it always seems to have ended badly.

Fair point but neither Dai Young or Mccall were inexperienced before their current roles.

Dai Young had led Cardiff to their best ever European performance, a semi final.

Mccall had won the Celtic League with Ulster.


I don't think it's a coincidence that the league positions are as they are when you look at the DORs.

Bath failing with their players shows that it's a poor DOR which is primarily the problem.

You do make an important point though and that's about stability.

Bruce Craig I am sure wants to see results.

Bath have gone backwards at a rate of knots compared to last season.

Beshocked, Ford was a good enough DOR last season to go within a game of winning the league. Terrible recruitment and the RWC hurt them this season.

Tigers tried two big name DORs. Loffreda, who only had experience at international level and when dropped into a professional club atmosphere was out of his depth and isolated players and the fans in short order. A committee of Tigers most experienced players demanded his departure.

Meyer was liked by the players and fans though our progression under him was slow and steady as opposed to instant impact. He only left because of family illness back in SA (unless you believe the rumours). We have hired two big name head coaches that were more successful.

Bath need someone who is going to take control. It might take a big name to get respect from the squad.