Nadal pulls out of French Open due to injury...

by Guest82 Fri 27 May 2016, 4:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/36401280

Silent ban anyone?

by Guest Sat 28 May 2016, 5:31 pm

lydian wrote:Nore, I do not agree...many myths thrown around about PRP like its the new holy sports recovery grail. Lets be clear, PRP only accelerates the natural healing process, it is not a magic bullet or repairs damage that would otherwise be impossible to treat. Its a catalyst not a panacea.

In fact it is difficult to find any proof that it works - to date apparently there have been no large scale clinical trials (such as double blind trials with & without the platelets + growth factors + whatever), but it is definitely a treatment that is being used at least by private clinics. It seems to be based on a plausible theory. Maybe we will need to read about it in Nadal's autobiography?

ps enzymes are catalysts, sometimes a process won't occur without a catalyst. With PRP I think the theory is that normally the process of repair is slow due to lack of blood supply to the damaged region (tendons & cartilage).

by lydian Sat 28 May 2016, 6:08 pm

Yes repair is slower but doesnt follow a different course...IF PRP works its only to speed up what would happen anyway. So hardly a radical route for Nadal to take. Its not sports enhancement either. So I still refute that PRP 'saved' Nadal's career. Rafa saved Nadals career...each time through his grim determination to succeed.

by Belovedluckyboy Sat 28 May 2016, 6:18 pm

PRP not very effective that's why Rafa now has stem cell treatments. Without PRP, Rafa would need long breaks the likes of his 2012/2013 8 months break to let his knee tendonitis heal to a more managable level.

Rafa only had PRP treatment starting from 2010, his results prior to 2010 were achieved without the help of PRP. Rafa would still be able to achieve his 2010 results IMO had he taken long breaks instead of PRP treatment (not unlike his 2013).

by paulcz Sat 28 May 2016, 10:57 pm

lydian wrote:
socal1976 wrote:No have to disagree BLB, everyone can have niggles but a player has serious injuries almost year is just not what I would label durable.
But thats a short sighted point because Nadal keeps coming back from the injuries...the mental willpower and determination to keep doing it it is immense. Thats resilience/durability...call it what you will. Also, many of the injuries are linked in my opinion...ie. The foot bone issue led to the knee priblens which led to periods off tour. The down periods then arguably result in Rafa over training when he returns back to the tour in his will to get back to the top. Over training can led to repetitive strain injury. All I'm saying is that Rafa is equally a victim of trying to overcome his own downfall as much injured through competitive battle. How many other players would have battled back to the top after each prolonged time out? In the context of severe injuries since 2004, when he was told to retire from the game period, he has proved to be remarkably durable in winning 14 slams etc...a number we all probably agree would be higher...considering Nadal also knows this his stoicism and will to succeed surely mark him as being one of the most durable characters to ever grace the sport?

Durable and susceptible to injuries is a bit contrary. I would say that his long-term GS success is down to his specific unorthodox game rather than to his high durability.

by socal1976 Sun 29 May 2016, 8:19 am

lags72 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Lags no one gives a crap about what you think we should be talking about, this ain't the New York Times and you aren't the editor.

...............................it seems you really crave my attention.

Not sure where you get that from socal. A good example of putting 2 & 2 together and making five....?

But to set the record straight : just because I (along with many others perhaps) find some of your views rather misguided - and at times hyperbolic and even irrational - does not equate to "craving your attention". In fact, the opposite is the case. I do think you might have created your own little fantasy there.....

Do remember it's a sports forum socal and not everyone is obliged to agree with you. You need to toughen up a little and not get so terribly offended when it happens. Try to take it on the chin a bit more. Just like I do when you dish out so much stuff yourself, as in references to my contributions as lame, condescending and snarky - to quote from just your very recent posts.

You know what I just lost interest in you, not surprising your dull. Basically, Jahu without the sense of humor. When you say something worth my time to comment on I'll consider it, but I won't hold my breathe because it happens rarely.

by socal1976 Sun 29 May 2016, 9:07 am

paulcz wrote:
lydian wrote:
socal1976 wrote:No have to disagree BLB, everyone can have niggles but a player has serious injuries almost year is just not what I would label durable.
But thats a short sighted point because Nadal keeps coming back from the injuries...the mental willpower and determination to keep doing it it is immense. Thats resilience/durability...call it what you will. Also, many of the injuries are linked in my opinion...ie. The foot bone issue led to the knee priblens which led to periods off tour. The down periods then arguably result in Rafa over training when he returns back to the tour in his will to get back to the top. Over training can led to repetitive strain injury. All I'm saying is that Rafa is equally a victim of trying to overcome his own downfall as much injured through competitive battle. How many other players would have battled back to the top after each prolonged time out? In the context of severe injuries since 2004, when he was told to retire from the game period, he has proved to be remarkably durable in winning 14 slams etc...a number we all probably agree would be higher...considering Nadal also knows this his stoicism and will to succeed surely mark him as being one of the most durable characters to ever grace the sport?

Durable and susceptible to injuries is a bit contrary. I would say that his long-term GS success is down to his specific unorthodox game rather than to his high durability.

Exactly paul a guy who has to withdraw from multiple events each year isn't durable unless we can just change the meaning of words

@lydian you made the point about his foot and I agree but the fact that he has that disability makes him less durable than Novak and Roger, which was the specific point I was making. I was in a similar spot in 2009 when I thought that Novak's respiratory issues and all the withdrawals would doom him.

I find it a bit odd of you to consider Djokovic's use of oxygen and air pressure as somehow unfair but Nadal using cutting edge science to enhance his bodies performance well no that isn't an issue in your eyes. I don't get how CVAC is wrong but why you deem Nadal's use of prp isn't.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 29 May 2016, 9:27 am

I don't wish to be a pessimist here but I think Rafa may find it very tough to get fit for Wimbledon. If it is in such a fragile state as to where one more match could have broken the wrist then it must be in a bad way. Yesterday a US expert in PRP treatment said that from now it would take injections first then a few days (if Rafa) took this route about six weeks with PRP treatment to recover. I think I heard that correctly. Touch and go for Wimbledon but hopefully I am wrong.

by Guest Sun 29 May 2016, 10:41 am

I think if anyone played Nadals style of play at Nadal's intensity their bodies would have broken down more and more seriously. Exactly what he does to repair his body always seems to have been shrouded in an air of mystery (PRP, Stem cell technology, drinking the blood of virgins, or placebo & natural healing) - but whatever it is it has kept him going for longer than what some thought possible.

by lydian Sun 29 May 2016, 10:50 am

socal1976 wrote:
@lydian you made the point about his foot and I agree but the fact that he has that disability makes him less durable than Novak and Roger, which was the specific point I was making. I was in a similar spot in 2009 when I thought that Novak's respiratory issues and all the withdrawals would doom him.

I find it a bit odd of you to consider Djokovic's use of oxygen and air pressure as somehow unfair but Nadal using cutting edge science to enhance his bodies performance well no that isn't an issue in your eyes. I don't get how CVAC is wrong but why you deem Nadal's use of prp isn't.

1. Oxygen tents are performance enhancing and a known mask for EPO use. PRP merely accelerates the healing process. Completely different uses and intents.
2. Someone with a congenital disability who goes on to achieve 14 GS is pretty durable I'd say. They have had to overcome adversity and endure (which is a function of durability) on tour through pain, difficulty and low periods. These are qualities we should aspire to and recognise.

In any case, Nadal has played 964 ATP matches...list me who has beaten that (and he's not retired yet).
You'll find the list isn't long...if that isn't durability at the top then I don't know what is.

by Belovedluckyboy Sun 29 May 2016, 10:56 am

Dont see any mystery as Rafa always update (at least his fans) about what treatment he was doing.

PRP wasnt something mysterious, as both Haas and James Blake also tried it and both had brief comebacks from their injuries; Haas even played some of his best tennis after that. I think some other tennis players also tried it, male and female players.

As Rafa mentioned, PRP wasnt effective and so he switched to stem cell treatments. I read that Tipsy contacted Rafa for help concerning Tipsy's broken knees and Rafa recommended him the stem cell treatment with Rafa's doctor. Tipsy thanked Rafa after his successful treatment and he's now back playing in the tour.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 29 May 2016, 11:03 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Dont see any mystery as Rafa always update (at least his fans) about what treatment he was doing.

PRP wasnt something mysterious, as both Haas and James Blake also tried it and both had brief comebacks from their injuries; Haas even played some of his best tennis after that. I think some other tennis players also tried it, male and female players.

As Rafa mentioned, PRP wasnt effective and so he switched to stem cell treatments. I read that Tipsy contacted Rafa for help concerning Tipsy's broken knees and Rafa recommended him the stem cell treatment with Rafa's doctor. Tipsy thanked Rafa after his successful treatment and he's now back playing in the tour.

Spot on I'd say. No mystery to it. Just an innovative way of treatment and it is common knowledge.

by lydian Sun 29 May 2016, 11:05 am

Exactly BLB - it's a recovery catalyst not a performance enhancer.

Here's the guys who played more Open Era matches than Nadal:
Nadal = 964
McEnroe = 1073
Lendl = 1310
Edberg = 1076
Sampras = 984
Ferrer = 972
Agassi = 1144
Federer = 1312
Connors = 25,000

It's not like he's fallen short at 700-800 which many former greats did.

by socal1976 Sun 29 May 2016, 11:10 am

lydian wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
@lydian you made the point about his foot and I agree but the fact that he has that disability makes him less durable than Novak and Roger, which was the specific point I was making. I was in a similar spot in 2009 when I thought that Novak's respiratory issues and all the withdrawals would doom him.

I find it a bit odd of you to consider Djokovic's use of oxygen and air pressure as somehow unfair but Nadal using cutting edge science to enhance his bodies performance well no that isn't an issue in your eyes. I don't get how CVAC is wrong but why you deem Nadal's use of prp isn't.

1. Oxygen tents are performance enhancing and a known mask for EPO use. PRP merely accelerates the healing process. Completely different uses and intents.
2. Someone with a congenital disability who goes on to achieve 14 GS is pretty durable I'd say. They have had to overcome adversity and endure (which is a function of durability) on tour through pain, difficulty and low periods. These are qualities we should aspire to and recognise.

In any case, Nadal has played 964 ATP matches...list me who has beaten that (and he's not retired yet).
You'll find the list isn't long...if that isn't durability at the top then I don't know what is.

aiding the healing process naturally is exactly what CVAC does. Just like CVAC it helps your body recover faster. If Nadal just let his body heal naturally it would heal just a lot slower. And I just don't buy your point one at all. LA used oxygen tents they managed to catch him. CVAC basically quickens recovery and also helps you sleep better, which is a much less known but important benefit for jet lagged players or people who finish late matches

Furthermore, again I repeat my comparison of Nadal's durability to injuries was a narrow comparison to Fed and Djokovic.

by Belovedluckyboy Sun 29 May 2016, 11:18 am

Rafa has tried to avoid any surgery. It seemed those who undergone surgery had most of the times couldnt get back to their previous level - Hewitt, Gonzo, Nalby, Delpo etc.

I do think in the absence of PRP or stem cell treatments, what Rafa would or could do: 1) takes long breaks to let his tendonitis heal to a manageable level; 2) undergone surgery for his knee injury of 2012 (inflammation of the fat pads of his knees) should he want a quicker recovery, instead of letting it heal naturally.

Rafa managed his injury comebacks without the help of PRP, from 2005 up to 2009. I think he'll still do well with or without PRP/stem cell treatments, just chooses the right time to go for long breaks to recover eg. Could have taken second half of 2009 off and came back to play the AO in 2010.

PS Stem cell treatment may have helped his body but not his mind, hence his 2015 poor results.

by Guest Sun 29 May 2016, 11:26 am

Thanks for the details BLB. One should always avoid surgery because that is always a brute force type of approach that can lead to scarring and loss of mechanical strength. I think Michael Jackson's face was a case study.

by lydian Sun 29 May 2016, 11:40 am

Come on Socal...hypoxic tents are used to increase EPO.
Ask Lance...

by Guest Sun 29 May 2016, 12:03 pm

Oxygen and air pressure are as impossible to regulate as high altitude training. As long as it is safe and the person inside the "tent" doesn't accidentally kill themselves then it is just one of the acceptable techniques for preparing the body, like how long distance runners fuel up to maximise their glycogen levels.

Be interested in learning about the technology. You hear about stories of people sleeping in "oxygen" chambers - maybe it was just tabloid misrepresentation. Be interesting to know if these oxygen tents do in fact have any effect beyond the placebo effect. I mean how long does one have to actually spend inside them to see or feel any effect.

by socal1976 Sun 29 May 2016, 1:00 pm

lydian wrote:Come on Socal...hypoxic tents are used to increase EPO.
Ask Lance...

There is no test for it, it has other benefits devoid of being an EPO cover which I am not convinced it is in the first place. LA got caught right?

by socal1976 Sun 29 May 2016, 1:05 pm

Nore Staat wrote:Oxygen and air pressure are as impossible to regulate as high altitude training. As long as it is safe and the person inside the "tent" doesn't accidentally kill themselves then it is just one of the acceptable techniques for preparing the body, like how long distance runners fuel up to maximise their glycogen levels.

Be interested in learning about the technology. You hear about stories of people sleeping in "oxygen" chambers - maybe it was just tabloid misrepresentation. Be interesting to know if these oxygen tents do in fact have any effect beyond the placebo effect. I mean how long does one have to actually spend inside them to see or feel any effect.

I have done the procedure it's pretty freaking good. It helps you with muscle soreness and makes you sleep like well breast fed baby. The sessions cost me very little, but I stopped going because the session's are really annoying as your ears pop like every two seconds. It's not a tent more famously an egg chamber or a pod.

by Guest Sun 29 May 2016, 1:30 pm

That sounds like higher than average oxygen levels - that is something needed when sleeping because in sleeping apnoea can occur, depriving the brain of oxygen, causing disturbed sleep and a fuzzy head when waking. Also I think high oxygen levels helps in the recovery and repair of tired muscle (and clearing lactic acid etc).

To boost one's EPO that Lydian is referring to I guess requires less oxygen which should feel unpleasant, light headed and on the point of passing out - that is what high altitude does to one - and the body responds after maybe a week or two to increase blood cell levels. Spending two hours a day in a low oxygen chamber I don't think is going to do it.

by lags72 Sun 29 May 2016, 1:35 pm

socal1976 wrote:

.............................................

....................................

When you say something worth my time to comment on I'll consider it, but I won't hold my breathe because it happens rarely.

Hey socal, in a nutshell, that's the very essence of my previous post. In other words, when you see stuff from me with which you don't remotely agree, or which you personally find totally dull (or even nonsensical), there really is no obligation to spend your time commenting. In much the same way that there are certain players we are always keen to watch - and others who we would never want to watch, even if paid to do so !!

Like I said earlier, a forum by its nature attracts all sorts of people & opinion. Sometimes I find your own posts really interesting ; and sometimes far less so.

Have never had occasion to try it myself, but I seem to think there is a facility to block specific posters if you really feel the need ..... ? You could use it on me.

Better to chill rather than get worked up about it. After all, it IS only tennis. Enjoy thumbsup

by Guest Sun 29 May 2016, 1:52 pm

Click on "profile", then click on "friends and foes", add to foes. I have done it to some encountered on non-tennis threads who are just thugs. It is also good for the blood pressure as a temporary measure if you are getting frustrated with some of the comments of others.

by lags72 Sun 29 May 2016, 2:11 pm

Ah, yes, Nore Staat, thanks, I knew there was some such facility....... but like I said, I personally don't feel any need for it, simply because I've always thought it's easy enough to just scroll through stuff you find dull/useless (and sometimes have a laugh in the process) until you find something you like.

But some folk do get unduly troubled by certain posters, and hence why I suggested to socal he may wish to use the block for me (although hopefully he just finds me dull and/or stupid ....rather than "a thug" .... Cool

)

As an aside, my hunch is (FWIW) that socal can get very upset when people disagree with certain of his theories and subjective analysis ; and that his basic guiding principle is a belief that if he repeats something often enough, then it automatically becomes an empirical fact. But of course life just ain't like that .... Wink

by Guest Sun 29 May 2016, 3:04 pm

Born Slippy wrote:
bogbrush wrote:That's really too bad for Nadal, terrible. I thought he was looking good here.

Frankly, if Djokovic fails to win this now, with the greats falling apart, he will deserve all the slating he'd get. This is as close to a complete cakewalk as you can get.

It's probably still going to be tougher than Fed's 09 run, as the likelihood he is going to have to play either the defending champion or Murray in the final and I'm pretty certain he would have beaten Rafa fairly easily anyway. Both can justifiably say they deserved a bit of luck at RG though!

As usual, more BS from you.

Fed had to go five sets against Haas who we know is an excellent player and then had to play monfils (on home turf) and then Del Potro in his career best season (just three months short of winning the USO) and then Soderling - the guy who blasted Nadal off the court.

Screech has no one who is remotely a threat on his side of the draw. The fact that people are predicting Thiem to be his semifinal opponent says it all. A guy who at age 22 has done less than all the players mentioned above.

As for who he may or not play in the final, quite frankly, Soderling on form is as formidable as any of them on clay (Murray or Wawrinka).

by lags72 Sun 29 May 2016, 3:32 pm

Yes, Haas does indeed have an excellent pedigree as we know, and I think it is too easy to dismiss him as not representing tough opposition in Federer's RG title year. That tight clash took a lot of the headlines but those other opponents mentioned were no easy meat either.

In discussing that 5 setter v Federer, socal referred to Haas as 'geriatric'. But, interestingly, in the series of seven matches that Haas subsequently (ie post-RG 2009) played against the current world no 1, the h2h is only narrowly in favour of Novak at 4-3, and includes Slam & Masters victories for Haas.

by socal1976 Sun 29 May 2016, 6:38 pm

Come on Haas on clay should not be tough for a four time finalist

by Born Slippy Sun 29 May 2016, 6:43 pm

socal1976 wrote:Come on Haas on clay should not be tough for a four time finalist

First time he has been past the 3rd round in his career.

by socal1976 Sun 29 May 2016, 6:48 pm

Born Slippy wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Come on Haas on clay should not be tough for a four time finalist

First time he has been past the 3rd round in his career.

Grass, indoors, or hard on his day he could beat any man but his game was totally unsuited to clay as was his age great research BS

by Guest Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:37 am

Born Slippy wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Come on Haas on clay should not be tough for a four time finalist

First time he has been past the 3rd round in his career.

He got past the 3rd round in 2002.

by Born Slippy Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:59 am

Galvatron wrote:
Born Slippy wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Come on Haas on clay should not be tough for a four time finalist

First time he has been past the 3rd round in his career.

He got past the 3rd round in 2002.

So he did - missed that one. Promptly lost in straight sets to Andrei Pavel though.

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