Saxons v SA(A) 1st Test - 10th June (Friday Night)

England Saxons match-day 23 for first game against South Africa ‘A’

15. Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
14. Alex Lewington (London Irish)
13. Nick Tompkins (Saracens)
12. Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap)
11. Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap)
10. Danny Cipriani (Wasps, 14 senior England caps)
9. Dan Robson (Wasps)

1. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs)
2. Tommy Taylor (Wasps, 1 senior England cap)
3. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 16 senior England caps)
4. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 23 senior England caps) (C)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
6. Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs)
7. Matt Kvesic (Gloucester, 3 senior England caps)
8. Sam Jones (Wasps)

Replacements:

16. George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons)
17. Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
18. Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
19. Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs)
20. Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
21. Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons)
22. Sam James (Sale Sharks)
23. Christian Wade (Wasps, 1 senior England cap)

South Africa ‘A’:

15 Leolin Zas
14 Travis Ismaiel
13 Francois Venter
12 Howard Mnisi
11 Courtnall Skosan
10 Garth April
9 Nic Groom

8 Nizaam Carr
7 Oupa Mohoje (c)
6 Sikhumbuzo Notshe
5 Stephan Lewies
4 JD Schickerling
3 Vincent Koch
2 Scarra Ntubeni
1 Thomas du Toit

Replacements: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Lizo Gqoboka, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Jean-Luc du Preez, 21 Piet van Zyl, 22 Francois Brummer, 23 Lukhanyo Am

I would go

Hepburn, Taylor, Brookes, Attwood, Lees, Ewers, Kvesic, Armand
Robson, Cipriani, Wade, Devoto, Burrell, Roko, Haley

Bench - McGuigan, Harrison, Cooper-Wooley, Ewels, Chisholm, Young, Hill, Lewington

Powerful front row where all 3 can carry but solid at set piece, big bulk from 4-6 and a true 7

Then in the backs as much pace as I can get plus Cips/Devoto to create

Harrison, Taylor, Brrokes, Attwood, Ewels, Ewers, Kvesic, Chisholm, Robson, Cipriani, Wade, Devoto, Tompkins, Roku, Lewington - If I was selecting, however Hepher is so I expect to see Hepburn, Lees and Armand start (two of whom I would not have taken on tour)

BamBam wrote:I would go

Hepburn, Taylor, Brookes, Attwood, Lees, Ewers, Kvesic, Armand
Robson, Cipriani, Wade, Devoto, Burrell, Roko, Haley

Bench - McGuigan, Harrison, Cooper-Wooley, Ewels, Chisholm, Young, Hill, Lewington

Powerful front row where all 3 can carry but solid at set piece, big bulk from 4-6 and a true 7

Then in the backs as much pace as I can get plus Cips/Devoto to create

Burrell is 10,000km away in Australia!

I forgot he'd been called up

I blame GF and his out of date squad list

Ok I'll start Tompkins instead

Wasn't Kyle Synckler in the Saxons too?

He's in Oz too

Ah I see

Sorry Chaps, I took the squad from the England tours thread.

Updated now.

We start again

LondonTiger wrote:Harrison, Taylor, Brrokes, Attwood, Ewels, Ewers, Kvesic, Chisholm, Robson, Cipriani, Wade, Devoto, Tompkins, Roku, Lewington - If I was selecting, however Hepher is so I expect to see Hepburn, Lees and Armand start (two of whom I would not have taken on tour)

Im with ya there!

These games are a HUGE challenge for Kvesic. He's the one we all talk about and is consistently stand out in the prem. Yet he doesn't seem favourable to successive coaches at this level.

A good strong performance will really boost his chances....but if he doesn't really stand out and make an impact...
He'll be Gloucesters next Andy Hazell.

I've always been a huge advocate of Kvesic, and it pains me to see him constantly make the extended squad but never get a run of games in an England shirt.

Other people probably noticed, but it is worth reiterating- when he came on against Wales, the first thing he did was secure an excellent turnover while they were on the front foot. Then he hit Wales about 3 meters behind the gainline to stifle their attack, and then later he made another turnover.

To me, his play looks exemplary. Yes he could carry more, but his other qualities are immense.

Im in the same camp as you Eddie.

And I also think his workrate and tackling is right up there aswell. His carrying isn't that bad is it?

But then what do we know  Lancaster, Rowntree, Farrell, Jones, Borthwick and Gustard all don't seem that keen...

I think the saxons will win. Can't see the junior boks challenging them, no set up and questionable selections.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im in the same camp as you Eddie.

And I also think his workrate and tackling is right up there aswell. His carrying isn't that bad is it?

But then what do we know  Lancaster, Rowntree, Farrell, Jones, Borthwick and Gustard all don't seem that keen...

Thanks god it's not just me GF! His carrying really isn't that bad. Compared to then rest of his game, it's probably his weakest quality, but he clears up a lot of untidy ball and is a willing carrier in the tight. I really hope he lays down a huge marker in South Africa.

His situation reminds me a little of Heinrich Brussouw- a quality operator but deemed not suitable to the current team.

Have they named the Bokks side/squad? With the U20s championships is this a baby Bokks or a true SA 2nd team?

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im in the same camp as you Eddie.

And I also think his workrate and tackling is right up there aswell. His carrying isn't that bad is it?

But then what do we know  Lancaster, Rowntree, Farrell, Jones, Borthwick and Gustard all don't seem that keen...

Thanks god it's not just me GF! His carrying really isn't that bad. Compared to then rest of his game, it's probably his weakest quality, but he clears up a lot of untidy ball and is a willing carrier in the tight. I really hope he lays down a huge marker in South Africa.

His situation reminds me a little of Heinrich Brussouw- a quality operator but deemed not suitable to the current team.

A couple of seasons ago Kvesic was playing No8 for Wuss and his open field carrying was very impressive. I hope Hepher gives him a chance and he performs to the level I believe he is capable of. I just worry that Jones is so set on Underhill that he has no interest in anyone else.

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im in the same camp as you Eddie.

And I also think his workrate and tackling is right up there aswell. His carrying isn't that bad is it?

But then what do we know  Lancaster, Rowntree, Farrell, Jones, Borthwick and Gustard all don't seem that keen...

Thanks god it's not just me GF! His carrying really isn't that bad. Compared to then rest of his game, it's probably his weakest quality, but he clears up a lot of untidy ball and is a willing carrier in the tight. I really hope he lays down a huge marker in South Africa.

His situation reminds me a little of Heinrich Brussouw- a quality operator but deemed not suitable to the current team.

Yeah I guess people have different perceptions of players, see different things and coaches have different ideas of how they want to use the players they have.

I too hope he puts a big marker down. But he's up against the likes of Clifford, Harrison etc who are maybe or certainly seen as a bit more alround players dare I say.

We shall see how it pans out.

LondonTiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im in the same camp as you Eddie.

And I also think his workrate and tackling is right up there aswell. His carrying isn't that bad is it?

But then what do we know  Lancaster, Rowntree, Farrell, Jones, Borthwick and Gustard all don't seem that keen...

Thanks god it's not just me GF! His carrying really isn't that bad. Compared to then rest of his game, it's probably his weakest quality, but he clears up a lot of untidy ball and is a willing carrier in the tight. I really hope he lays down a huge marker in South Africa.

His situation reminds me a little of Heinrich Brussouw- a quality operator but deemed not suitable to the current team.

A couple of seasons ago Kvesic was playing No8 for Wuss and his open field carrying was very impressive. I hope Hepher gives him a chance and he performs to the level I believe he is capable of. I just worry that Jones is so set on Underhill that he has no interest in anyone else.

Ah I forgot about him.

Clifford, Harrison, Underhill, Kvesic (Fraser possibly) we are developing some very impressive young flankers. Its going to be a battle for those flank shirts.

Problem with Ksevic is that he's just not that powerful.

Not sure you can learn too much from performing well vs a demoralised Welsh side which had one eye on the NZ tour.


Lancaster didn't favour Ksevic and neither has Jones, there must be something that they feel that Ksevic needs to improve.

propdavid_london wrote:Have they named the Bokks side/squad?  With the U20s championships is this a baby Bokks or a true SA 2nd team?

South Africa A squad

Garth April (Sharks), Lukhanyo Am (Kings), Arno Botha (Bulls), Francois Brummer (Bulls), Nizaam Carr (Stormers), Jean-Luc du Preez (Sharks), Thomas du Toit (Sharks), Lizo Gqoboka (Bulls), Nic Groom (Stormers), Travis Ismaiel (Bulls), Jason Jenkins (Bulls), Ntando Kebe (Kings), Vincent Koch (Stormers), Edgar Marutlulle (Kings), Malcolm Marx (Lions), Howard Mnisi (Lions), Oupa Mohoje (Cheetahs, c), Sikhumbuzo Notshe (Stormers), Scarra Ntubeni (Stormers), Coenie Oosthuizen (Sharks), Sergeal Petersen (Cheetahs), JD Schickerling (Stormers), Courtnall Skosan (Lions), RG Snyman (Bulls), Marcel van der Merwe (Bulls), Piet van Zyl (Bulls), Francois Venter (Cheetahs), Leolin Zas (Stormers).

couple of danger men highlighted (the best in the group that is IMO)

There is something that coaches aren't right about him Beshocked, but his premiership form is consistently very high! I don't see a lack of power.

I think he is a real quality operator in that 7 shirt, and is quite intelligent in picking his opportunities...and seems to have a good knowledge of the rules.

Either way...these are the tests for him. make or break really, considering the challengers he has for those flank spots.

Yeh, I don't think Kvesic is underpowered. Certainly he is more strong than powerful, a bit like Pocock, but he's always held his own.

To me Kvesic has always looked more powerful than Fraser and Harrison - but I guess we all see things in a different way.

Londontiger I don't think Fraser is powerful enough at the moment. Don't know enough about Harrison. I don't rate Ksevic's power either.

Geordiefalcon I guess it's who you compare Ksevic to. I just don't think he's a particularly strong ball carrier.

bluestonevedder if Ksevic was as good as Pocock he'd be in the team in a heartbeat.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I don't think Fraser is powerful enough at the moment. Don't know enough about Harrison. I don't rate Ksevic's power either.

Geordiefalcon I guess it's who you compare Ksevic to. I just don't think he's a particularly strong ball carrier.

bluestonevedder if Ksevic was as good as Pocock he'd be in the team in a heartbeat.

Even though Sarries won... Harrison tore Fraser a new one in their ECC QF match up from memory. I think Fraser is a good club player, that's it. Harrison has the dog about him though... coaches love that. Haven't seen enough of Kvesic but I imagine that is what he'll need to show... as in blind often suicidal commitment.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I don't think Fraser is powerful enough at the moment. Don't know enough about Harrison. I don't rate Ksevic's power either.

Geordiefalcon I guess it's who you compare Ksevic to. I just don't think he's a particularly strong ball carrier.

bluestonevedder if Ksevic was as good as Pocock he'd be in the team in a heartbeat.

Come on now beshocked, I did not say that Kvesic was anywhere near as good as Pocock. I just said that they are similar player in that they are more strong than powerful. There's a gulf between them at the moment in terms of ability. I truly believe that Pocock is the best forward in the world at the moment.

England Saxons match-day 23 for first game against South Africa ‘A’

15. Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
14. Alex Lewington (London Irish)
13. Nick Tompkins (Saracens)
12. Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap)
11. Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap)
10. Danny Cipriani (Wasps, 14 senior England caps)
9. Dan Robson (Wasps)

1. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs)
2. Tommy Taylor (Wasps, 1 senior England cap)
3. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 16 senior England caps)
4. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 23 senior England caps) (C)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
6. Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs)
7. Matt Kvesic (Gloucester, 3 senior England caps)
8. Sam Jones (Wasps)

Replacements:

16. George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons)
17. Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
18. Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
19. Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs)
20. Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
21. Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons)
22. Sam James (Sale Sharks)
23. Christian Wade (Wasps, 1 senior England cap)

Will be fascinated to see how Sam Jones goes. He looked a real prospect when playing against the Lions in 2013 for Barbarians, but injuries and Wasps recruitment mean we have seen little of him since.

bluestonevedder wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I don't think Fraser is powerful enough at the moment. Don't know enough about Harrison. I don't rate Ksevic's power either.

Geordiefalcon I guess it's who you compare Ksevic to. I just don't think he's a particularly strong ball carrier.

bluestonevedder if Ksevic was as good as Pocock he'd be in the team in a heartbeat.

Come on now beshocked, I did not say that Kvesic was anywhere near as good as Pocock. I just said that they are similar player in that they are more strong than powerful. There's a gulf between them at the moment in terms of ability. I truly believe that Pocock is the best forward in the world at the moment.

Probably one of the best conditioned too. His upper body strength is off the chart.

However his reading of the game is simply unmatched. He doesn't do any more running than other opensides, he doesn't get to the first man the quickest... but he's the smartest operator out there. He lurks in the midfield waiting for the lone forward (usually about phase 4-6) who charges into his zone without support.
I seriously think AUS set up teams at times... allow them to break a yard or two extra past the gainline where they are just a little more vunerable to turnovers.

bluestonevedder fair enough but there must be something missing for Kvesic to not be selected.

My point about Pocock vs Ksevic is that Pocock has shown proven class at the highest level, Kvesic hasn't. Maybe Ksevic is just unlucky but I think there is more to that.

Perhaps it's unfair to compare them but Kvesic hasn't made the step up yet. Sure there's time on his side but he's got to make it eventually.

On a side note Tompkins is a lucky person to be starting! Hasn't featured much for Saracens this season and his reward is starting for the Saxons.

Very surprised to see Lewington preferred to Wade, but otherwise it's a pretty strong Saxons side, partcularly with Attwood and Brookes in the front five, and Robson and Cipriani at half back - these are players who could easily play for England in Australia.

South Africa ‘A’:
15 Leolin Zas, 14 Travis Ismaiel, 13 Francois Venter, 12 Howard Mnisi, 11 Courtnall Skosan, 10 Garth April, 9 Nic Groom, 8 Nizaam Carr, 7 Oupa Mohoje (c), 6 Sikhumbuzo Notshe, 5 Stephan Lewies, 4 JD Schickerling, 3 Vincent Koch, 2 Scarra Ntubeni, 1 Thomas du Toit

Replacements: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Lizo Gqoboka, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Jean-Luc du Preez, 21 Piet van Zyl, 22 Francois Brummer, 23 Lukhanyo Am

Initial thought - backline looks awful outside of Venter, but I appreciate I may not be up to date with some of the young SA players!

Be interesting to see how Koch goes, he's joining Sarries for next year, and the Saxons front row is a decent one

BamBam wrote:South Africa ‘A’:
15 Leolin Zas, 14 Travis Ismaiel, 13 Francois Venter, 12 Howard Mnisi, 11 Courtnall Skosan, 10 Garth April, 9 Nic Groom, 8 Nizaam Carr, 7 Oupa Mohoje (c), 6 Sikhumbuzo Notshe, 5 Stephan Lewies, 4 JD Schickerling, 3 Vincent Koch, 2 Scarra Ntubeni, 1 Thomas du Toit

Replacements: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Lizo Gqoboka, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Jean-Luc du Preez, 21 Piet van Zyl, 22 Francois Brummer, 23 Lukhanyo Am

Initial thought - backline looks awful outside of Venter, but I appreciate I may not be up to date with some of the young SA players!

Be interesting to see how Koch goes, he's joining Sarries for next year, and the Saxons front row is a decent one

ha, I listed 3 danger men in Botha, van Zyl & Pietersen and only 1 gets on the bench.

I mean how does Arno Botha not get in that side? We know the reason but come on... the guy is epic and really should be in the full squad let alone SA "A".

What's the reason FA? Quotas?

BamBam wrote:South Africa ‘A’:
15 Leolin Zas, 14 Travis Ismaiel, 13 Francois Venter, 12 Howard Mnisi, 11 Courtnall Skosan, 10 Garth April, 9 Nic Groom, 8 Nizaam Carr, 7 Oupa Mohoje (c), 6 Sikhumbuzo Notshe, 5 Stephan Lewies, 4 JD Schickerling, 3 Vincent Koch, 2 Scarra Ntubeni, 1 Thomas du Toit

Replacements: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Lizo Gqoboka, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Jean-Luc du Preez, 21 Piet van Zyl, 22 Francois Brummer, 23 Lukhanyo Am

Initial thought - backline looks awful outside of Venter, but I appreciate I may not be up to date with some of the young SA players!

Be interesting to see how Koch goes, he's joining Sarries for next year, and the Saxons front row is a decent one

BamBam, that is a very exciting young backline

I would expect an open running game . Shouldbe exciting.

BamBam wrote:What's the reason FA? Quotas?

Well its quite a progressive team and come on... I mean I love the Stormers but Carr at 8 is laughing stock proportions. Arno Botha tore the Stormers backrow a new one a few weeks back and yet we see zero bulls backrow players in the boks or boks "A" and all 3 stormers fielding (all non white).

I think England will overpower them upfront. I also think it lacks any cohesion or complimentary play in the backrow. I think the backs will struggle to compete with that. The frontrow looks ok but Ntubeni is not the best lineout thrower and the locks are at best adequate. I'd say right now that England should win this game with a little to spare.

fa0019 wrote:I think England will overpower them upfront. I also think it lacks any cohesion or complimentary play in the backrow. I think the backs will struggle to compete with that. The frontrow looks ok but Ntubeni is not the best lineout thrower and the locks are at best adequate. I'd say right now that England should win this game with a little to spare.

FA, I see this SA Ateam as atransformational development team, it provides a shot at guys who has to prove themselves worthy

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think England will overpower them upfront. I also think it lacks any cohesion or complimentary play in the backrow. I think the backs will struggle to compete with that. The frontrow looks ok but Ntubeni is not the best lineout thrower and the locks are at best adequate. I'd say right now that England should win this game with a little to spare.

FA, I see this SA Ateam as atransformational development team, it provides a shot at guys who has to prove themselves worthy

I agree. However they shouldn't have even brought in Arno then to the squad. Frankly its an insult that those 3 (2 of whom he manshamed weeks earlier) are starting over him.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think England will overpower them upfront. I also think it lacks any cohesion or complimentary play in the backrow. I think the backs will struggle to compete with that. The frontrow looks ok but Ntubeni is not the best lineout thrower and the locks are at best adequate. I'd say right now that England should win this game with a little to spare.

FA, I see this SA Ateam as atransformational development team, it provides a shot at guys who has to prove themselves worthy

I agree. However they shouldn't have even brought in Arno then to the squad. Frankly its an insult that those 3 (2 of whom he manshamed weeks earlier) are starting over him.

No usearguing selections in SA anymore, it is what it is

You will not see the best matchday 23 in any team in SA for the foreseeable future, to argue selections of any team is therefora moot concept

Sad, but should lead to a big improvement in the long term.

beshocked wrote:
My point about Pocock vs Ksevic is that Pocock has shown proven class at the highest level, Kvesic hasn't. Maybe Ksevic is just unlucky but I think there is more to that.

Perhaps it's unfair to compare them but Kvesic hasn't made the step up yet. Sure there's time on his side but he's got to make it eventually.

.

But Kvesic has excelled at every level he's been asked to play so far, so to say he hasn't is just wrong. This is the next level up from Prem so we'll see how he goes, but I fully expect him to be impressive and show that he has what it takes.

Agree with Eddie, you criticise Kvesics power, then say he's not a great carrier. Kvesic isn't explosive, hes strong, and that's what Pocock is. Pocock is a poor carrier. They are different from Clifford etc

Kvesic is not at Pococks level but hes not as far along in his rugby career. One thing I have been impressed with as I said above is that Kvesic picks and chooses intelligently when to pounce and when to leave it. And he seems to know the rules to the intricately....

Again...we shall see how he goes in these games.

He was very impressive vs the reserve Argies.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He was very impressive vs the reserve Argies.

I had a vague recollection he had done pretty well on that tour - though against limited opposition. In the two games he made 36 tackles with none missed and beat 6 defenders while carrying. He also has a 100% record for England so far - 3 wins in 3 appearances.

Well either way he does seem to split opinion so all we can do is watch him in these games and see how he goes.

Geordiefalcon has Kvesic ever played in the ERCC? It's all well and good being AP standard but surely the level expected from a player has to be higher than that to play for England.

Is playing a 2nd string SA side that's ability has been played down by fa0019 be a good benchmark? Beating a 2nd string Argentina isn't really a big deal. I guess you can only beat what's in front of you but he needs testing vs the best.

Kvesic is strong? Compared to whom? Pocock might well be a poor carrier but he has aspects of his play which are world class. Even the biggest Kvesic fan wouldn't say his ability at the breakdown is close to Pocock's.

My point is that Kvesic is running out of time, if he's not careful others will leapfrog him, England have struggled to find a proper openside for some time and Kvesic as of yet hasn't grasped that opportunity.

He hasn't as yet been given the opportunity beshocked. There are 2 in Clifford and Underhill who may force him further from contention though.

Why hasn't he had an opportunity though? If numerous players can get fast tracked into the England team why can't Kvesic make the step up? It can't just be being unfairly overlooked.

Ksevic has been floating around the England squad for 3 years.