The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

Munchkin wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:Whether people like it or not the country voted to leave the EU and I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of a 2nd Referendum, those who did fail to vote and wanted to remain have in my opinion no argument.

I don't think a 2nd referendum will happen. I do think a 2nd referendum would vote Remain, even if the exact same voters come out.

Quite possibly.

Re the who's to blame debate:

It's easy to blame the Jeremy Kyle population for how the vote panned out, and it's equally easy to blame those that failed to convince them, or those who put together the leave campaign... Boris and his now ex-cronies just making stuff up for a cause they were supporting for personal gain.

But for me the blame goes to those who put the great British public in a position to vote on a yes/no basis on something too many don't and never would understand.

So let's blame Cameron. He did it to take control of a more united party and take the steam out of ukip.

But then he wouldn't have felt pressure to do so if it wasn't for the existence of the bottom-feeders of ukip

Who wouldn't have got a boost to their support if it wasn't for the war on terror fanning the flames of national xenophobia

So let's blame Isis/isil whatever today's name is... Or better still, American foreign policy in general

Or rags like the daily mail for stoking the fires

Or ed miliband for being so ineffectual that Cameron got in in the first place.

If you want a scapegoat the list is endless, and we like scapegoats that's why people blame the EU and the politicians for their woes, and why so many then treat a referendum as a misguided protest vote

Which is why there should never have been a referendum in the first place.

You elect representatives to take the difficult decisions for you. You might not like them or agree with them, but they're a bit more qualified than most of us... And it's a handy safeguard against letting the British public loose on anything important.

What do they do now? Pass the parcel and avoid pressing the button... No-one wants that on their cv

This is why I prefer being relatively simple milky. I can ignore all that sh*t

Two issues really.
Its very hard to really, properly prove that a large portion of the leave vote only voted for reason that turned out to be fraudulent. Not easy

That of course isnt accounting at all for the people who may have voted remain because of being scared by some of the things rewmain said that may not have been all true either


Worstly, anyone with the cojones to not invoke article 50 would give a nuclear bomb, in political terms, to UKIP. It might meant the rise of UKIP as a major force in politics,

That might mean it gets invoked anyway

ShahenshahG wrote:That's fair enough, if you couldn't be arsed to vote or register you deserve not to have your voice heard. But nearly every claim has turned out to be a lie or a half truth so there has to be some scope. I too struggle with it munchkin, but the problem isn't a small one. The damage done by invoking it could be seismic so if there is any room for error i'd definitely err on the side of the status quo. I work in the security industry and i'll be one of the few who gets a pay rise/promotion should the worst happen but i'd rather be stuck here than watch hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs over some referendum where practically no one knew what was what and every single promise was broken before the perpetrators even took office.

I think the Government would have to come right and say they're not going to invoke article 50. The reaction to that would be extreme, I think, and I could understand the feelings of those on the Brexit side. The right thing to do is to honour Brexit, but then at what cost to the UK in the long term? Who would want to be the one making that call right now?

ShahenshahG wrote:This is why I prefer being relatively simple milky. I can ignore all that sh*t

You should have voted leave then buddy. You get to stick two fingers up to the establishment, and by the time you've realised you're worse off than before, there''ll be some other fcuker to blame!

milkyboy wrote:Re the who's to blame debate:

It's easy to blame the Jeremy Kyle population for how the vote panned out, and it's equally easy to blame those that failed to convince them, or those who put together the leave campaign... Boris and his now ex-cronies just making stuff up for a cause they were supporting for personal gain.

But for me the blame goes to those who put the great British public in a position to vote on a yes/no basis on something too many don't and never would understand.

So let's blame Cameron. He did it to take control of a more united party and take the steam out of ukip.

But then he wouldn't have felt pressure to do so if it wasn't for the existence of the bottom-feeders of ukip

Who wouldn't have got a boost to their support if it wasn't for the war on terror fanning the flames of national xenophobia

So let's blame Isis/isil whatever today's name is... Or better still, American foreign policy in general

Or rags like the daily mail for stoking the fires

Or ed miliband for being so ineffectual that Cameron got in in the first place.

If you want a scapegoat the list is endless, and we like scapegoats that's why people blame the EU and the politicians for their woes, and why so many then treat a referendum as a misguided protest vote

Which is why there should never have been a referendum in the first place.

You elect representatives to take the difficult decisions for you. You might not like them or agree with them, but they're a bit more qualified than most of us... And it's a handy safeguard against letting the British public loose on anything important.

What do they do now? Pass the parcel and avoid pressing the button... No-one wants that on their cv

Their cv wouldn't look any better if they invoke article 50. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:That's fair enough, if you couldn't be arsed to vote or register you deserve not to have your voice heard. But nearly every claim has turned out to be a lie or a half truth so there has to be some scope. I too struggle with it munchkin, but the problem isn't a small one. The damage done by invoking it could be seismic so if there is any room for error i'd definitely err on the side of the status quo. I work in the security industry and i'll be one of the few who gets a pay rise/promotion should the worst happen but i'd rather be stuck here than watch hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs over some referendum where practically no one knew what was what and every single promise was broken before the perpetrators even took office.

I think the Government would have to come right and say they're not going to invoke article 50. The reaction to that would be extreme, I think, and I could understand the feelings of those on the Brexit side. The right thing to do is to honour Brexit, but then at what cost to the UK in the long term? Who would want to be the one making that call right now?

They can't say that can they. They can procrastinate like hell though, and hope a better alternative crops up in the meantime! Hiding under the duvet politics. "I'm going to press the button on Wednes... oops no got a hair appointment. Thursday, definitely thurs... damn the plumber's coming round thursday"

Munchkin wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

What do they do now? Pass the parcel and avoid pressing the button... No-one wants that on their cv

Their cv wouldn't look any better if they invoke article 50. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

That's what I meant, better to fiddle while rome burns than be the the guy who started the fire in this instance i'd say. Even if the public started the fire. Agreed it's a sticky wicket whatever they do.

milkyboy wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:That's fair enough, if you couldn't be arsed to vote or register you deserve not to have your voice heard. But nearly every claim has turned out to be a lie or a half truth so there has to be some scope. I too struggle with it munchkin, but the problem isn't a small one. The damage done by invoking it could be seismic so if there is any room for error i'd definitely err on the side of the status quo. I work in the security industry and i'll be one of the few who gets a pay rise/promotion should the worst happen but i'd rather be stuck here than watch hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs over some referendum where practically no one knew what was what and every single promise was broken before the perpetrators even took office.

I think the Government would have to come right and say they're not going to invoke article 50. The reaction to that would be extreme, I think, and I could understand the feelings of those on the Brexit side. The right thing to do is to honour Brexit, but then at what cost to the UK in the long term? Who would want to be the one making that call right now?

They can't say that can they. They can procrastinate like hell though, and hope a better alternative crops up in the meantime! Hiding under the duvet politics. "I'm going to press the button on Wednes... oops no got a hair appointment. Thursday, definitely thurs... damn the plumber's coming round thursday"

They would have to. The pressure from the EU and the British public would ensure that. The economy isn't going to flourish with that level of uncertainty weighing it down.

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:That's fair enough, if you couldn't be arsed to vote or register you deserve not to have your voice heard. But nearly every claim has turned out to be a lie or a half truth so there has to be some scope. I too struggle with it munchkin, but the problem isn't a small one. The damage done by invoking it could be seismic so if there is any room for error i'd definitely err on the side of the status quo. I work in the security industry and i'll be one of the few who gets a pay rise/promotion should the worst happen but i'd rather be stuck here than watch hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs over some referendum where practically no one knew what was what and every single promise was broken before the perpetrators even took office.

I think the Government would have to come right and say they're not going to invoke article 50. The reaction to that would be extreme, I think, and I could understand the feelings of those on the Brexit side. The right thing to do is to honour Brexit, but then at what cost to the UK in the long term? Who would want to be the one making that call right now?

If I was Boris I'd be admitting to conspiracies left right and centre. Firstly that none of us wanted Brexit to win so we told barefaced lies. I colluded with Gove Sarah vine daily mail and the sun so they would tell you lies and make it close enough so either myself or Michael Gove could become prime minister and chancellor. We've been deceiving you for yonks and we've been blaming the EU and the health and safety board for stupid/unpopular decisions made by us so we could have the support of said papers. Mutually assured destruction.

This will have the effect of I told you so. It would destroy the daily mail and the sun hopefully mushing dacre and murdoch like the bitches they are and make it so obvious that it was based on a lie that a second referendum would become a necessity. Also it would unite the nation in condemnation of a focal point and the response would be sheepish rather than the simmering anger and turmoil that has beset the nation since last week.

Extraordinary goings on in this country's politics. You couldnt even script it for a TV show its so far fetched.

I think theres a possibility that Brexit wont take off. The post referendum mess has been a better advertisement for the Remain vote than any campaign. The longer the chaos goes on and the longer this Aricle 50 doesnt get initiated, I think the more chance Brexit will be overturned in some shape or form. Especially as the negative effects sink in, the Leave vote and its leaders turn on each other, and most of the Leave cornerstone promises are rowed back or debunked.

With no clear exit plan and no clear alternative plan, Scotland and NI providing robust dissent and no clear leadership I dont really think the country is in a position to leave and probably wont be for some time. It would be unprecedented to essentially renege on a referendum but already this is unchartered territory and some sort of novus actus intravenous could be manufactured. Or else we just never pull the trigger on this Article 50 and exist as de facto EU members who opted to Leave but never got round to it.

Shah, I think the most telling line in that sarah vine link was the 'you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off' one.  Makes it clear winning wasn't the objective.

As the saying goes... behind every smarmy tosspot there's a manipulating bitch

ShahenshahG wrote:This will have the effect of I told you so. It would destroy the daily mail and the sun hopefully mushing dacre and murdoch like the bitches they are and make it so obvious that it was based on a lie that a second referendum would become a necessity. Also it would unite the nation in condemnation of a focal point and the response would be sheepish rather than the simmering anger and turmoil that has beset the nation since last week.

I believe both sides should put their hands up and admit to behaving shamefully towards their public. I would be very much in favour of all the media moguls taking a kicking.

Fly - you are as much out of touch with your people as the Tories are with theirs

Irish attitudes towards Europe were notably positive; if a referendum on EU membership were held in Ireland, 80 per cent would vote remain, 13 per cent would vote leave while 7 per cent were unsure.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/majority-sees-europe-as-more-important-to-state-than-uk-1.2705994

Some other stuff like most don't want a border with NI.

milkyboy wrote:Shah, I think the most telling line in that sarah vine link was the 'you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off' one.  Makes it clear winning wasn't the objective.

As the saying goes... behind every smarmy tosspot there's a manipulating bitch

Stop jumping the gun milky firstly we must determine which is the bitch and which is the smarmy toss pot.

catchweight wrote:Extraordinary goings on in this country's politics. You couldnt even script it for a TV show its so far fetched.

I think theres a possibility that Brexit wont take off. The post referendum mess has been a better advertisement for the Remain vote than any campaign. The longer the chaos goes on and the longer this Aricle 50 doesnt get initiated, I think the more chance Brexit will be overturned in some shape or form. Especially as the negative effects sink in, the Leave vote and its leaders turn on each other, and most of the Leave cornerstone promises are rowed back or debunked.

With no clear exit plan and no clear alternative plan, Scotland and NI providing robust dissent and no clear leadership I dont really think the country is in a position to leave and probably wont be for some time. It would be unprecedented to essentially renege on a referendum but already this is unchartered territory and some sort of novus actus intravenous could be manufactured. Or else we just never pull the trigger on this Article 50 and exist as de facto EU members who opted to Leave but never got round to it.

Good post, although I don't believe sweeping Article 50 under the carpet would be a wise choice. The public have been mislead enough, and deserve better. The EU wouldn't allow the UK to get away with it in any case. The UK would be very vulnerable.

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:This will have the effect of I told you so. It would destroy the daily mail and the sun hopefully mushing dacre and murdoch like the bitches they are and make it so obvious that it was based on a lie that a second referendum would become a necessity. Also it would unite the nation in condemnation of a focal point and the response would be sheepish rather than the simmering anger and turmoil that has beset the nation since last week.

I believe both sides should put their hands up and admit to behaving shamefully towards their public. I would be very much in favour of all the media moguls taking a kicking.

.

Agreed. Go back to some semblance of civility.

Fidelity Fund Management opening office in Dublin (100 people). They say its nothing to do with Brexit. However, they have leased 68,000 sq ft which would suggest they are looking to move more people from UK over here.

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:This will have the effect of I told you so. It would destroy the daily mail and the sun hopefully mushing dacre and murdoch like the bitches they are and make it so obvious that it was based on a lie that a second referendum would become a necessity. Also it would unite the nation in condemnation of a focal point and the response would be sheepish rather than the simmering anger and turmoil that has beset the nation since last week.

I believe both sides should put their hands up and admit to behaving shamefully towards their public. I would be very much in favour of all the media moguls taking a kicking.

.

Agreed. Go back to some semblance of civility.

We can only dream.

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:This will have the effect of I told you so. It would destroy the daily mail and the sun hopefully mushing dacre and murdoch like the bitches they are and make it so obvious that it was based on a lie that a second referendum would become a necessity. Also it would unite the nation in condemnation of a focal point and the response would be sheepish rather than the simmering anger and turmoil that has beset the nation since last week.

I believe both sides should put their hands up and admit to behaving shamefully towards their public. I would be very much in favour of all the media moguls taking a kicking.

.

Agreed. Go back to some semblance of civility.

We can only dream.

I dream only of Adele sitting on my face.

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:This will have the effect of I told you so. It would destroy the daily mail and the sun hopefully mushing dacre and murdoch like the bitches they are and make it so obvious that it was based on a lie that a second referendum would become a necessity. Also it would unite the nation in condemnation of a focal point and the response would be sheepish rather than the simmering anger and turmoil that has beset the nation since last week.

I believe both sides should put their hands up and admit to behaving shamefully towards their public. I would be very much in favour of all the media moguls taking a kicking.

.

Agreed. Go back to some semblance of civility.

We can only dream.

I dream only of Adele sitting on my face.

Think I can content myself with her voice

That's good we've only just started being civil I would hate to have to chew your leg off in a fit of jealous rage.

ShahenshahG wrote:That's good we've only just started being civil I would hate to have to chew your leg off in a fit of jealous rage.

Good, I'm rather attached to my leg o0

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:That's good we've only just started being civil I would hate to have to chew your leg off in a fit of jealous rage.

 Good, I'm rather attached to my leg o0

Excellent neither Rome of us will be going out on a limb

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:That's good we've only just started being civil I would hate to have to chew your leg off in a fit of jealous rage.

 Good, I'm rather attached to my leg o0

Excellent neither Rome of us will be going out on a limb

True, we can rise head and shoulders above all that.

And so the future of us never pressing the button sits with Theresa May.

Well done Leave voters. May her vaginal juice be on your hands when this all goes completely t1ts.

100 years ago today, thousands of british soldiers lay down their lives in a fight for europe, misinformed by their leaders about what lay ahead they tragically went over the top at the Somme.

100 years later and the british public are misinformed by their leaders regarding what lays ahead in a 'battle' to get out of europe.

I don't wish in anyway to trivialise the greatest loss of life experienced by british soldiers in a single day, but I was struck by the irony... the lions are still led by donkeys. Wouldn't it be great, if our leaders could draw inspiration at a sobering time of remembrance and put side before self. I won't hold my breath.

Munchkin wrote:

Afro wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

rodders wrote:Yes I am blaming the public  -100%.

If people were unsure then they should have either stayed at home or voted for the status quo position.

If people were prepared to change out of their pajamas and miss an episode of Jeremy Kyle or homes under the hammer to vote for constitutional change then they should have made sure they had some bloody clue what they were voting on.

Who said they were unsure? They may well have actually believed a politician and voted accordingly. Shocking, isn't it?

Kyle? Maybe you think 17 million of the Brexit vote are unemployed, including around 6 million middle class? I know you're angry at the result, but lashing out as you are is uncalled for.

Why do you assume that anyone who watches Jeremy Kyle is unemployed.
Seems you are generalising just as much.

I was responding to rodders implication. Take it up with him if you're so vexed, however, as the show is during working hours I don't think it's much of a generalisation, do you?

I don't think 17.5 million people who voted Brexit are unemployed, ill informed and/or racist.

I think many people have valid reasons as to why they prefer to be outside the EU - for instance maybe some small business owners find the regulation difficult, laborers who've found their wages suppressed due to free movement. Others are frustrated with the Bureaucracy in Brussels. I respect this completely even if I don't agree that leaving is the answer.

However without the ill informed and xenophobes leave would simply not have won, not even close.

The vast majority of average people in the UK benefit from EU membership so many people have voted to give themselves, their children and grandchildren a worse quality of living - therefore it is not a quantum leap to say such people, including many in Wales are simply ignorant, naive or stupid.

Are all leave voters racist or xenophobes, all 17.5 million? No of course not but certainly what has been exposed is that there are millions of racists and xenophobes in the UK, mainly but not confined to the working class and washing over this reality is a big mistake and has been for a number of years.

We now have openly racist organisations in the mainstream able to promote racist propaganda under the banner of free speech - this more so than anything Gove or Johnson has said has let to the referendum result and the mess the country is now in.

milkyboy wrote:100 years ago today, thousands of british soldiers lay down their lives in a fight for europe, misinformed by their leaders about what lay ahead they tragically went over the top at the Somme.

Thus has it always been, thus shall it ever be.

[quote="rodders"][quote="Munchkin"][quote="Afro"][quote="Munchkin"]

rodders wrote:

I don't think 17.5 million people who voted Brexit are unemployed, ill informed and/or racist.

I think many people have valid reasons as to why they prefer to be outside the EU - for instance maybe some small business owners find the regulation difficult, laborers who've found their wages suppressed due to free movement.  Others are frustrated with the Bureaucracy in Brussels. I respect this completely even if I don't agree that leaving is the answer.

However without the ill informed and xenophobes leave would simply not have won, not even close.

The vast majority of average people in the UK benefit from EU membership so many people have voted to give themselves, their children and grandchildren a worse quality of living - therefore it is not a quantum leap to say such people, including many in Wales are simply ignorant, naive or stupid.

Are all leave voters racist or xenophobes, all 17.5 million? No of course not but certainly what has been exposed is that there are millions of racists and xenophobes in the UK, mainly but not confined to the working class and washing over this reality is a big mistake and has been for a number of years.

We now have openly racist organisations in the mainstream able to promote racist propaganda under the banner of free speech - this more so than anything Gove or Johnson has said has let to the referendum result and the mess the country is now in.

that's pretty much how I see it rodders. Political observers for years struggled with the motives of much of the working class tory vote... swinging elections for the conservatives, seemingly against their best interests. There are similarities here.

Re your last point, my primarily motivation to vote was a deep concern that for all the largely decent people making considered choices that i may or may not agree with... the casting votes were going to be held by a smaller percentage of racist bigots.

Milkey Labour are as much to blame for this mess.

By shifting to a Tory-lite position and supporting austerity and welfare reform they paved the way for the likes of UKIP and far right to become the peoples voice.

The last decade has been been a slide into almost totalitarian one party politics where people can't distinguish between right and left.

We've had two constitutional referendums in the UK with members of both the government and opposition on both sides of the debate so it is no wonder many people feel confused and not represented.

A healthy democracy needs a right and a left and healthy opposition so the political system in britain has badly broken down in the last few years.

rodders wrote:

A healthy democracy needs a right and a left and healthy opposition so the political system in britain has badly broken down in the last few years.

Perhaps broken down because some Parties have come to retirement age but don't want to retire (and I'm not just referring to the UK).  Everyone says the world has moved on.... well, the pomp and attitude of entities called 'Parties' hasn't.

Voters don't disappear - they're still there, they're all still there - but not voting according to the stern wishes and almost pathetic demands of those things called Traditional parties.  People have talked about the need for the survival of a 'Party'.  To hell with that bull.  A Party is an IT - if it dies so be it.  There are still people that want to vote.  Try a new flavour.

Maybe it's a time to paraphrase Cameron himself - to those parties that don't know when it's time to leave the stage and retire - for Heaven's sake, just GO!.

rodders wrote:Milkey Labour are as much to blame for this mess.

By shifting to a Tory-lite position and supporting austerity and welfare reform they paved the way for the likes of UKIP and far right to become the peoples voice.

The last decade has been been a slide into almost totalitarian one party politics where people can't distinguish between right and left.

We've had two constitutional referendums in the UK with members of both the government and opposition on both sides of the debate so it is no wonder many people feel confused and not represented.

A healthy democracy needs a right and a left and healthy opposition so the political system in britain has badly broken down in the last few years.

Its difficult keeping the balance between having a separate identity and being a bunch of nutters. Extreme politicians of any persuasion scare me.

rodders wrote:Milkey Labour are as much to blame for this mess.

By shifting to a Tory-lite position and supporting austerity and welfare reform they paved the way for the likes of UKIP and far right to become the peoples voice.

The last decade has been been a slide into almost totalitarian one party politics where people can't distinguish between right and left.

We've had two constitutional referendums in the UK with members of both the government and opposition on both sides of the debate so it is no wonder many people feel confused and not represented.

A healthy democracy needs a right and a left and healthy opposition so the political system in britain has badly broken down in the last few years.

Problem is that Corbyn is a useless c*nt who probably can't even energise his c0ck in to action when looking at videos of Kelly Brook taking a good rodgering.

That and I view socialist policies surrounding redistribution of my hard earned effing money a joke. You want to be better off then bloody work for it.

Coxy001 wrote: You want to be better off then bloody work for it.

I said that to an automated answering machine one day when I got fed up with her indifference to my rage............ the bitch put down the phone!

Automated systems deserve a pay cut for rudeness.

SecretFly wrote:

Coxy001 wrote: You want to be better off then bloody work for it.

I said that to an automated answering machine one day when I got fed up with her indifference to my rage............  the bitch put down the phone!  

Automated systems deserve a pay cut for rudeness.

Bloody hate them. "Did you say XXXX"... No, I fuc*king said XXX!!!!!!!!! "Please wait whilst we transfrer you to a member of our team".

Cue rage.

The problem for labour moving left, is its proven to be none electable over many years now rodders. Too many of the traditional vote now have a standard of living that softens their allegiences. I mentioned it earlier in the thread... Does the Labour Party want to be the country's conscience in opposition, or a viable electable alternative. If it's the latter, then they have to move into liberal territory and sacrifice some principles.

I think we moved into a democrat/republican situation with Blair and despite the Corbyn experiment, we're likely stuck there for a while.

Coxy001 wrote:
That and I view socialist policies surrounding redistribution of my hard earned effing money a joke. You want to be better off then bloody work for it.

I agree.

However giving people a chance to do that through a world class and fair education system and providing infrastructure investment and tax/funding incentives to poorer areas of the country is vital to giving people a fair crack at working themselves out of poverty.

There needs to be a balance between free market capitalism and social policies which promote fairness and an opportunity for people no matter where the are born and to get that balance you need healthy right and left parties, which isn't the case at the minute.

No rodders, what you need is new labour

One thing I would say. We're risking here suggesting that extremists only exist on the leave side. wbilat not in the same way. There are people who may have voted remain because they wanted to keep the poorest wages down, or thought they could make a big buck off of it

Remain certainly had some extreme opinions of its own

milkyboy wrote:No rodders, what you need is new labour

So red Ed thought anyhow

Capitalism requires, works best and is designed (by practice) to have a poor class.  So when Capitalists (and I'm one of them) tell the poor to get a better education and get a better job and get better pay and conditions... well, I snigger.

If everyone in a Capitalist system had the right to be as wealthy as their neighbour, then there would be no concept of 'wealth' at all.  Capitalism thrives on the concept of 'wealth' creation.

Don't blame the poor for being poor.  Yes, blame the lazy for being lazy... but not the poor for being poor.  They're an unfortunately essential component in creating the idea of 'Hard Earned Money'.

temporary21 wrote:One thing I would say.  We're risking here suggesting that extremists only exist on the leave side. wbilat not in the same way. There are people who may have voted remain because they wanted to keep the poorest wages down, or thought they could make a big buck off of it

Remain certainly had some extreme opinions of its own

What's extreme about wanting to maintain low wages?

Any business owner is going to want cheap labour, that just makes economic sense. The working man obviously will see things differently but that is the heart of capitalism.

Free movement of people obviously has a downward pull on wages in certain sectors but that in itself is not a bad thing for the country as whole.

I can see many companies and manufacturing moving overseas if there is a sharp wage increase due to inaccessibility of labor and that benefits no one.

rodders wrote:

Free movement of people obviously has a downward pull on wages in certain sectors but that in itself is not a bad thing for the country as whole.

So take me through why that is not a bad thing for the country as a whole. The whole is still a mix of super rich, medium rich, conventionally comfortable, mildly poor and the terribly deprived and poor. Which 'whole' has the moral authority to talk about the idea of 'whole'?

SecretFly wrote:
Don't blame the poor for being poor.  Yes, blame the lazy for being lazy... but not the poor for being poor.  They're an unfortunately essential component in creating the idea of 'Hard Earned Money'.

If capitalism functioned as it should be then the poor and lazy would be one and the same.

The problem is modern Britain, or I should say England specifically, has combined Victorian era class systems and structures with unregulated US style free market capitalism to create arguably the most unequal society in the 1st world.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Free movement of people obviously has a downward pull on wages in certain sectors but that in itself is not a bad thing for the country as whole.

So take me through why that is not a bad thing for the country as a whole.  The whole is still a mix of super rich, medium rich, conventionally comfortable, mildly poor and the terribly deprived and poor.  Which 'whole' has the moral authority to talk about the idea of 'whole'?

Because despite floods of hundreds of thousands of nasty immigrants unemployment is running at 5.4% (at least before the referendum).

If you cut immigration to tens of thousands, as the leave campaign have targeted - in pure mathematical terms unless you are counting on a very deep economic contraction, then there will be a massive labour shortfall, which will create massive skills shortages and very high wage inflation.

rodders wrote:

If capitalism functioned as it should be then the poor and lazy would be one and the same.

No...not remotely right. That is not so. If a Nation has a certain defined wealth - capitalism allows that to be a race to see who gets most of it and who gets less. There will always be a percentage that have to accept virtually nothing. It's arrogant to say they're lazy - they are serving the system that allows the super rich to take more than their 'fair' share of the wealth. .
If a hard working low skilled but necessary worker has £10 in his pocket............ the people above him on the wealth scale still want it. They fight for his £10.

There is no capping system in pure Capitalism

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

If capitalism functioned as it should be then the poor and lazy would be one and the same.

No...not remotely right.  That is not so.  If a Nation has a certain defined wealth - capitalism allows that to be a race to see who gets most of it and who gets less.  There will always be a percentage that have to accept virtually nothing.  It's arrogant to say they're lazy - they are serving the system that allows the super rich to take more than their 'fair' share of the wealth.  .  
If a hard working low skilled but necessary worker has £10 in his pocket............ the people above him on the wealth scale still want it.  They fight for his £10.

There is no capping system in pure Capitalism

That's only true for a closed economy, which ironically, some want the UK to move back to.

In a global economy national defined wealth doesn't present the capital ceiling - people may be limited to a percentage but if the pie is bigger then the amount increases even if the percentage doesn't.