Irish Players passing on the torch...

Hi all,

Finally made the switch to 606v2 and it's good to see so many familiar names looking though some of the articles.

I've been reading so much about the world cup lateley and the possible player selections, and forwards/backs split ratios I kinda wanted to look a step further. Saw a post on how Ireland reach the next level https://www.606v2.com/t6092-how-ireland-make-the-jump-to-next-level?highlight=ireland and was interesting to see the opinions of some regarding a win away to a Southern Hemispherian team is vital, or consistency against France or using the six nations as chance to develop talent. It was the last point there that made me think about our "golden generation" and how much longer some of them have.

Kidney has done well IMO with bringing in new talent and the provinces, Leinster in particular have been good at turing out great young players who rise to HCup standard quickly and then are ready for an Irish call up however long after.

It's safe to say after the world cup there could be a few retirements and that there are a number of players who will not be around in a season or two.
I was wondering who YOU thought these players were AND who YOUthink will take over for them.
For me it's......

John Hayes (after the World Cup) Mike Ross has already replaced him
Flannery (after the World Cup due to injuries) already replaced by Best
POC (by 2013 season) possibly Tuohy.
David Wallace (by 2012) Sean O'Brien/Ferris
Stringer (by 2012) Murray/Williams/Marshall
ROG (by 2013) Sexton and eventually Keatly (hopefully)
Darcy (by 2012) McFadden maybe Spence or Bowe with BOD moving to 12.
BOD (by 2014) Spense/O'Malley/Fitzgerald?!?!- need to see more of Barnes
Horgan (by 2012) already replaced by Bowe
Murphy (by 2012) already replaced by Kearney and hopefully Jones

Yeah, so let me know what people think. Have I missed any others who could retire? More importantly who do you think out of the young guys will be able to step up or not be able to step up? Who are you most worried about losing?

Happy Sunday guys.

Donncha O'Callaghan will be gone.

Will Cave live up to his potential?

Yeah good one. He may make it to 2013 though but can't see him making the Lions. I think he is only jsut 13.

As for Cave, he'e been leap frogged by so many other players at this stage. Spence has had a great season and when O'Malley has played he has looked incredible too.

Part of me is worried about ROG retiring. I much prefer Sexton but it's nice to know if Jonny isn't having a good day or is injured that ROG will come on and will do a good job. Not sure how much I like the idea of Wallace there.
At least he covers more than one position on the bench though unlike ROG and will make space for an outside back to take the 23 shirt.

*just 30

Pete, you can actually edit your original post to fix the 13/30 typo - one of the nice things about V2

I thought McFadden would take over from BOD, although Ferg doesn't do a bad job at 12 either. I think Fitzy will stay an 11 now....he's not a fullback anyway!

Cheers kiwireddevil still getting used to all this shannigans!

Hey Cari, yeah ferg has played at 13 and has the p[ace to make the outside break and is pretty solid defensively. What's even better is that if O'Malley makes it into the 13 shirt at Leinster the two of them will be playing together and will hopefully make them into a great partnership which Ireland can benefit from.

Re Fitzy he could be in big trouble with Fionn Carr arriving. If Horgan doesn't retire this year (and I don't think he will) there are going to be 3 class wingers (Carr, Horgan and Fitz) as well as possibly Kearney and McFadden fighting for spots on two wings and one on the bench.

McFadden isn't bad with his boot either - he's nowhere near ROG or Sexytoes, but he's available if needed

I dont expect many of the outgoing guys to pass on the torch in a positive sense. I expect them to hang around as long as possible.I remember reading an article with DOC about taking over from Mick Galwey(sp) in Munster. The interviewer asked how great it was to take over from the big man and DOC basically said he was a nightmare to get the jersey off saying that he would have done anything to hang onto it.

Im not sure which approach is best for Irish rugby but it made for an amusing article

That's an interestig way of looking at it. I think players like darcy won't really have a chance in that resect because McFadden is arguably playing better than darcy.
Players like O'Connell will be slower I reckon cos they could be playing on qualities like leadership and also the fact that McFadden is of a similar standard to darcy where as tuohy is not with O'Connell

Darcy losing out to McFadden seems a case of when rather than if for me. Replacing our second rows will be trickier and we will need to look at pack overall when that time comes.

Yeah i would like to see McFadden get a year or two partnering BOD. Then when BOD is looking to retire Luke Marshall will come through and McFadden can move out to 13.

Standulstermen wrote:Then when BOD is looking to retire Luke Marshall will come through and McFadden can move out to 13.

Will he though. Seems that he'll make the 12 jersey his own in Leinster with Cave, Earls, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Spence, O'Malley, Barnes etc coming in to partner him at 13.

Stag i have said before i just cant see and Ulster an Ireland team in 5 years time without Luke Marshall at 12. He has a few years on McFadden and to my mind possesses the top two inches that will make him Irelands most important back during that period. Of course he has to deliver on his potential but i have seen nothing so far to dissuade me that he wont. Just my opinion though

Ulster he has talent. But you know full well that talent isn't enough. McFadden has got Heineken Cup and International Caps to his name already and will have a working relationship with Sexton at 10 and O'Driscoll at 13. I see him making the step up before 20 year old Luke Marshall and you know how hard it is to dislodge a player from the Irish jersey especially one who is playing well. Marshall could well end up the next Paddy Wallace

He wont be the next Paddy Wallace as he wont be moved from pillar to post. He is a 12 and will remain so. I think there is more chance of McFadden going the way of Paddy Wallace as he has already been shipped about. I think Marshall will be good enough t dislodge whoever is in front of him. Thats why i am very excited about the ML games during the RWC. I have already said back on 606 that i expect Paddy Wallace to have a job on his hands when he returns

Hey stand and stag good to see some more familiar names here and thanks for posting.

Will be interesting because when bod and darcy retire then there will be effectively two centre partnerships in marshal/spence and McFadden/o'malley looking to step into the irish centre jerseys granted could be a mix of the two.

I once thought that Fitzgerald would make a great centre (and 15, deary me) part of me still does but a larger part of me wants him to be on a bench for quite some time. I think he could cover 12/13 but should be just that: cover. I also don't think earls is a runner at all he should be a winger IMO. Bowe???

Leinster/Ulster derbies are going to be interesting in a year or two with a lot resting on these 2 teams re centres.

BOD 2014?! Will he still be alive then if he keeps playing rugby?!

The guy is getting battered so much its getting to the rate where he's done atleast once, often twice a game with an injury. I'd rather he bows out for his own sake at the end of 2011 / 12 season and goes into the Irish coaching set up, as well as at Leinster, and teaches guys like McFadden/O'Malley a thing or two about the game.

Hopefully his genius can be captured long after his retirement from the Inter stage.

I know it's his goal to make the 2013 Lions team.

I guess with all of these players injuries is a crucial part

How are you Pete. I think Earls is a winger but I think he will end up at centre for Munster.

We have several talented wingers. Doug Howlett, Denis Hurley and the young Simon Zebo have all been impressive at one stage or another. I am backing Johne Murphy who had a dreadful opening season to be better next year and show he can run a line as well as he did for Tigers.

I think (actually I fear) that Earls will end up at centre. He's a better winger but its a case of needs must. If he is Munsters starting 13 we could see him feature there especially as he has played at 13 in the Heineken Cup, 6 Nations and for the Lions.

Fair point stag. When earls played 13 for the lions Fitz was at 12 and I honestly thought we were seeing te future Irish partnership, with bowe, Kearney and Trimble making up d rest of the outside backs. How that has changed.

IMO earls' main strengths are his speed, acceleration, finishing abilities and distance kicking
Weaknesses: hands, passing and defensive positioning (knowing which man is
His to tackle)

That's just my 2 cents on it however. Barnes and Murphy would be a good partnership. I have a funny feeling munster may recruit a player who can play centre however. Sure keatley has played 13 a number of times.

There does seem to be a lot of talent in the centres else where in Ireland.
The only position I'm very worried about is at lock all are better than good locks are going to be leaving Irish rugby in the next 2 yrs r so

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

The only position I'm very worried about is at lock all are better than good locks are going to be leaving Irish rugby in the next 2 yrs r so

Why do I see so many posts on the old 606 and now here saying this.O'Connell and O'Callaghan are 31 and 32 respectively,they can easily keep going for another 4 years injury permitting.They're lock forwards not wingers,now it's not ideal if we're still relying on them at this stage but I don't see why everyone assumes they are both gonna retire after 2013.I think they'll both still be playing in 2015 and I think O'Connell at least will still have a place in the Irish setup even if he's no longer a starter.

they may well still be playing but it would be a poor position to be still relying on them. The amount of carrying that POC does and the amount of rucks that DOC hits i would be surprised if they were physically able to keep going for 4 years

Pete I fully agree with you about Earls but he'll end up at centre rather than wing I fear. I'd like to try out Keatley at 12 with Mafi or else further develop the Mafi-Barnes partnership.

As for second rows I have had my faith restored in Donnacha Ryan towards the end of this season. I think the arrival of Ian Nagle on the scene has spurred him on and I think we could see him partner O'Connell in a year or two as first choice for Munster. He has done very well to establish himself as first choice in the Munster backrow. Tuohy is another with real potential, as are Andrew Browne (Connacht) and Ian Nagle (Munster). However as others have said O'Connell and O'Callaghan have much left to give. I see no future for Devin Toner.

Guess just pray earls stays on the wing.

I agree with you about Ryan his performances have been encouraging for te last while. Also, a big tuohy fan, I love how aggressive and physical he is and has good hands for link play wish he hadn't been injured for the end of the season and the 6n. McLaughlin is another possibly.

However none are of the standard of poc and doc and Cullen. I think Cullen will go on longer than poc. IMO poc's carrying is the one aspect of his game that hasn't recovered since his return from injury. The way he ambles around the corner of rucks and jogs into contact is in stark contrast to sob and Wallace.

I feel poc will go before doc even though doc has replacements in his mould whereas poc doesn't really. Wouldn't expect either of them in the 2015 world cup that would get you quite long odds I'd imagine.

When rog retires who will be back up 10?? Wallace? Humphreys? Keatley?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:However none are of the standard of poc and doc and Cullen. I think Cullen will go on longer than poc. IMO poc's carrying is the one aspect of his game that hasn't recovered since his return from injury. The way he ambles around the corner of rucks and jogs into contact is in stark contrast to sob and Wallace.

I feel poc will go before doc even though doc has replacements in his mould whereas poc doesn't really. Wouldn't expect either of them in the 2015 world cup that would get you quite long odds I'd imagine.

When rog retires who will be back up 10?? Wallace? Humphreys? Keatley?

Cullen is already 33 years old. O'Connell is just 31. I would say none of the newer guys are at their level yet. They will in time.

I suspect Keatley will backup Sexton when time comes.

Stag,

While some might make it to the level of O'Callaghan or Cullen, I think it will be a long time till O'Connell is matched for Ireland.

MBTGOG wrote:Stag,

While some might make it to the level of O'Callaghan or Cullen, I think it will be a long time till O'Connell is matched for Ireland.

Oh I agree with that. But I have no doubt we have players who will make it to the level of a good second row comfortable at international level. We'll get a great player in another position - Keith Wood at 2, O'Driscoll at 13, O'Connell at 5, we'll hopefully get another player like that elsewhere

Stag,

I think we will do but I hope we won't be too lacking at lock. There's some decent players coming through but if we do want to improve, we need better players than that.

Maybe we will see a positional shift or 2. Ruddock, McLaughlin etc shifting to lock perhaps?

Ruddock isn't big enough and while McLaughlin would be serviceable, I can't see him being a starting international class lock.

MBTGOG wrote:Ruddock isn't big enough and while McLaughlin would be serviceable, I can't see him being a starting international class lock.

Munsty, does that not slightly depend on how the game develops and how the individual players adapts as a physical specimen? Based on the original list, my greatest fear would be around the second row - however, as many have pointed out, there's more than likely several years still in POC, DOC and Cullen, which will give plenty of time to guys like Ryan, Nagle, etc. to develop

Plus who is to say we won't find a 21 year old prodigy like Richie Grey in 4 or 5 years.

Stag,

Very possible but I can only talk about the current lot that I've seen.

As,

One problem is that if PO'C and DO'C do keep going, then Nagle and Ryan will still find their opportunities limited.

Maybe it's just because O'Connell was injured for a lot of this year but I don't feel he will be here by the next world cup. To the lions tour seems reasonable but not to 2015.

Ruddock isn't really too small to play lock is he? The guys a mamoth and still just a kid really! Also great leadership skills. Again though he would be in the DOC enforcer kind of mould. As would tuohy and possibly McLaughlin. I think McLaughlin will have to adapt to secondrow to even get into the Leinster team
At this stage. He has always played well there too.

I'd love if keatley was sub outhalf just because he is well rounded and can play a few positions a very good bench option.

One thing for certain Devin toner needs to change a lot If he is to stand a chance!

Ruddock is big for a blindside, but is undersized for lock at just 6'3. At 6'5, you're only just big enough really. Anyway, playing Ruddock there, I think you'd be restricting him.

I don't think McLaughlin would be the enforcer considering he's be a converted back row. I'd expect him to be the more dynamic lock.

The next generation of 2nd rows look like being Touhy, Nagle, Toner, Donnacha Ryan and McGloughlin.

Touhy and Nagle look like the best prospects out of that lot with perhaps Nagle taking over from O'Connell and Touhy becoming a 2nd row enforcer.

I don't rate Toner as he really lacks power and ball carrying ability however if you take him out theres a worrying lack of height there with alot of those guys around 6'5 which isn't tall enough in the modern game.

I know he's been injured but I'd really like to see touhy and perhaps McGloughlin get a few caps alongside O'Connell to see how they go. O'Connell was immense against Leinster so perhaps he and Cullen can go on for a season or two yet. POC is not having the impact he once had though.

In the centres there's plenty of options with Mcfadden and Spence getting plenty of 1st team rugby and really impressing and O'Malley and Marshall hot on their heels. Cave has come back into the mix too with some excellent performances and Barnes looks like a good prospect too.

I think D'arcy and Wallace may struggle to keep their provincial jerseys next season against McFadden and Marshall respectively. BOD is playing very well in parts but is worryingly starting to get shown up one on one in a manner he didn't in the past. Foden and Howlett really skimmed him easily in recent weeks which is worrying so perhaps he should call time on his Ireland career sooner rather than later.

ROG is playing very well but post WC I'd like to see Humphreys get more chances and hopefully Keatley will step up to the plate at Munster.

At 9 Reddan is still good for a few seasons yet but perhaps it is the end for Stringer. Murray looks class and perhaps will wrestle the shirt of Reddan very soon.

Other than that I don't see many changes in the coming seasons but I suspect the WC will be the end of the road for: G Murphy, Wallace *2, Hayes, Horan, Stringer and Flannery and post WC we'll see more of Felix Jones, McGloughlin, Tuohy, McFadden, Spence and Murray.

To be fair to O'Connell he has missed a lot of the season either due to injury or suspension. When he has played, he has in the most part been fantastic.

O'Driscoll, especially in the H Cup final, was not 100% fit in the last two games and was played just because of the presence he brings to the side.

MBTGOG wrote:To be fair to O'Connell he has missed a lot of the season either due to injury or suspension. When he has played, he has in the most part been fantastic.

O'Driscoll, especially in the H Cup final, was not 100% fit in the last two games and was played just because of the presence he brings to the side.

I agree. POC looked well of the pace when he first returned but has finished the season strongly and his work rate against Leinster was incredible. If he can stay fit he's got a season of two in him for sure.

BOD has really done some excellent stuff recently. He had a pretty good 6N and has looked sharper in attack this season than last and made some nice line breaks recently. However the manner in which Howlett and Foden beat him one on one recently was very worrying even if he isn't 100% fit. His top level speed has been gone for a while but now it looks like his acceleration and quick feet are waning too. He still has great hands, reads the game well and has an excellent kicking game but more and more I feel he is going to be exposed in space by quicker players.

I hope I'm wrong though and he and D'arcy are back to their best in the WC but both seem to have lost a yard of pace.