Chavez Nelson @ 130

Mentioning Nelson on the thread about fights we're glad we didn't get, got me thinking on this one we could have had but different.

Chavez and Nelson were never in the same weight division, but they came close.. Chavez fought his last fight at 130 at the end of 1987. In Feb of 1988 azumah nelson won chavez' old belt.

So the premise is, Chavez hangs on a few extra months and fights nelson at super feather, early 1988.

One guy, naturally a little bigger, but apparently tight at the weight, the other having his first fight at the weight.

Who wins and why?

Nelson was KO'd by Sanchez, Chavez had a more relentless style. Chavez would've won by KO as well

Nelson took the Sanchez fight at 2 weeks notice...Sanchez had a different style to Chavez anyway..

Chavez was no monster at 130...Went the distance a fair bit..

Nelson by decision..

Not sure I'd take the Sanchez fight as a guide. Nelson was a novice, it was short notice as truss says and he was basically done by exhaustion as much as anything. Great fight and very close.

Funnily enough, the fight in which nelson won the super feather title (at the time of this fantasy match-up) was probably the one you'd look at. He was in trouble a few times against martinez, in what was a pretty controversial decision. Never really saw him in trouble other than that that I recall. Considering he fought Gomez and Laporte amongst other noted bangers, I don't think zoomy lacked in the whiskers dept.

Against that, JCC was pushed hard by both Laporte and lockridge toward the end of his feather reign. Laporte gave nelson a tough fight too, a few years later, as it goes.

I think you'd use Fenech as a guide here wouldn't you? Fenech was robbed blind in that first fight. I'd take Chavez, on a King card, to avoid the same scenario.

Chavez UD 12.

I guess it's whether you take Fenech 1 or 2 haz! Nelson blames malaria for the first fight. Like JCC he had an excuse for most of his lesser performances. The only reason you might listen to that one was how he destroyed him in the rematch.

That said Nelson was the king of the rematch... Whether he learnt from his defeats or just used his poorer performances as motivation to up his game is open to debate I guess. You'd think if you was smart enough to learn how to beat someone he'd be able to adapt better during the first fight.

Laporte beat Chavez in a lot of minds...Chavez even said he wouldn't have argued...

Nelson was a more complete fighter than Juan..But styles do make fights..

Like I said Zoom by decision..

Great fighter..

milkyboy wrote:I guess it's whether you take Fenech 1 or 2 haz! Nelson blames malaria for the first fight. Like JCC he had an excuse for most of his lesser performances. The only reason you might listen to that one was how he destroyed him in the rematch.

That said Nelson was the king of the rematch... Whether he learnt from his defeats or just used his poorer performances as motivation to up his game is open to debate I guess. You'd think if you was smart enough to learn how to beat someone he'd be able to adapt better during the first fight.

How old was Zoom when he fought Jeff ??...Probably the same age as JCC against Frankie..

Frankie...beat him twice and told the Captain he was nothing special..

Don't agree but not everybody rated Chavez.

Mario Martinez fought Nelson in '88. Knocked him down and lost a highly contentious SD.

Chavez beat the living daylights out of Martinez.

I don't see how Nelson hurts Chavez and he can't outwork him. Chavez all day for me - think he was a notch better.

For balance, Martinez was just turned 19 when Chavez beat him. Man against boy.

You wouldn't think Laporte or lockridge could match chavez either but they pretty much did, Laporte in particular was a coin toss.

They were two tough guys, so was nelson.

For the record I think Chavez tight points is the percentage call here, but at that weight at that time it's a very close fight.

milkyboy wrote:For balance, Martinez was just turned 19 when Chavez beat him. Man against boy.

You wouldn't think Laporte or lockridge could match chavez either but they pretty much did, Laporte in particular was a coin toss.

They were two tough guys, so was nelson.

For the record I think Chavez tight points is the percentage call here, but at that weight at that time it's a very close fight.

Man against boy? Chavez was only 22. He'd only had seven more fights (but had boxed significantly less rounds)! Martinez turned pro at 14 and was on a 20 fight tear (after losing his 16th bout). He beat Roberto Castanon (55-3-1) and Rolando Navarette (48-8-3) just prior to the Chavez fight. Castanon had been in with Sal Sanchez for the title and Navarette had beaten Boza Edwards and been in title fights with Limon and Arguello.

Have you seen the fight? That was certainly no boy Chavez was in with!

I have, but it was a while back. True that Mexicans start them young and I have to confess I do remember thinking Martinez was the oldest looking just turned 19 year old I'd seen!

Guys mature at different ages (and obviously not all reported ages are correct). My point was not many fighters peak in their teens and Nelson fought a mature man.

Think I read nelson thought Martinez was the best fighter he fought... Perhaps a reflection that stylistically gave him the most trouble.

Again you gave to take fighters comments with a pinch of salt... Nelson lost to Sanchez and Whittaker after all!

I thought Whittaker showed why he should be a Top 10/12 fighter against Nelson...

Perfect example of how to disarm a great pressure fighter...Think Sweet had the best footwork I've seen..

Great great fighter...Beats Floyd but rates a spot or two behind on record.

Anyway sorry to get in the way of your debate.

It never looked like a good match up for nelson that one... Particularly Giving size away to such a great boxer.  The cards were a little generous to him, he was never really in it.

He says his heart wasn't in it, as his wife was dying of cancer at the time... So he could certainly be excused for a less than stellar performance, but I can't see how he would  ever really trouble sweet pea.

Nelson was very much like GGG...He made fighters feel he was all over them..even when he wasn't..

Like GGG opponents the work rate is cashing checks the body can't pay..

Poor Cowdell I think he threw 12 rounds of punches in 3 minutes.

hazharrison wrote:Mario Martinez fought Nelson in '88. Knocked him down and lost a highly contentious SD.

Chavez beat the living daylights out of Martinez.

I don't see how Nelson hurts Chavez and he can't outwork him. Chavez all day for me - think he was a notch better.

This kind of debating doesn't work because styles make fights...

I could point to Nelson stopping and trashing Danilo Cabrera at "126" in 10...........and then seeing Cabrera move up to 130 and going the distance with Chavez.....

As with Martinez....Cabrera is a meaningless comparison..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Mario Martinez fought Nelson in '88. Knocked him down and lost a highly contentious SD.

Chavez beat the living daylights out of Martinez.

I don't see how Nelson hurts Chavez and he can't outwork him. Chavez all day for me - think he was a notch better.

This kind of debating doesn't work because styles make fights...

I could point to Nelson stopping and trashing Danilo Cabrera at "126" in 10...........and then seeing Cabrera move up to 130 and going the distance with Chavez.....

As with Martinez....Cabrera is a meaningless comparison..

Triangular references don't always work, no. But my point was that against the same opponent at the same weight, Chavez looked the stronger, slightly better fighter (Martinez dropped Nelson remember).
Cabrera may have lasted the distance (and he only just made it) against Chavez but he was completely trounced. Nelson also trounced him - he just managed to put the finishing touch on it (so desperate was he to eclipse McGuigan's effort).

Saw a lot of Chavez in the 80s being a King fighter..Remember he couldn't get rid of Dwight Pratchett who was a 13-6 journeyman over 12 rounds on the Holmes - Spinks undercard...

Meldrick Taylor beat Pratchett in his second fight...Just before it..

Add Pratchett to the Lockridge and Laporte fights and one could say we see a beatable champion....

As good as he was...

Honeyghan looked better against Bumphus and Curry than Starling did ...

Honeyghan beats Starling right ???

Styles make fights !!!..........

Truss says Chavez struggled with journeymen but I bet Ray Leonard would have struggled with a few journeymen if he'd boxed as many fights as Chavez. That's just how the game works. Great fighters struggle with journeyman from time to time. Always been that way. Journeyman studies a great fighter thinks he'll give it his all to go out and go the distance. Can dine out on it and get a lot more work. Probably why Ray didn't do that many bread and butter fights knew they can sometimes be tricky it's not just the fight it's the training the getting into shape the getting up for a lesser fighter who could make you look bad.

I keep saying it, Ray Leonard is a bit  lucky to get in people's top ten and twenty lists he simply didn't have enough fights despite his amazing skills top 20-25 I'm ok with. How would he have done in the twenties to forties something tells me he wouldn't have done too well in that era ?

Back to Chavez Nelson well all I can say is what a shame it never happened what a fight on paper just an unbelievable fight if they boxed five times maybe it could be 3-2 or a very hard to split 4-1 that's all I'm prepared to say right up there with a Greb Tunney series

Chavez certainly padded his record out between the bigger fights. I don't think Leonard was inactive particularly hermy, he retired with the detached retina and hit the white powder. While fighting prior to that he was active enough.

In terms of ATG rankings its a simple quality v quantity assessment and what you wish to give more emphasis to. His career gap will always count against him at the very highest level of these things... but when 5 of your first 7  title fights are against prime benitez duranx2, kalule and hearns - then you do ok in the quality stakes.

Who knows how he would have done in another era - maybe the eye lets him down. But just because he was a showman doesn't mean he wasn't prepared to tough it out - you only have to watch duran 1 and hearns 1 to see he was prepared to get in the trenches and get on the front foot against a power hitter when he wanted/needed to.  Way more to his game than just the fancy dan he's sometimes referred to.

Herman Jaeger wrote:Truss says Chavez struggled with journeymen but I bet Ray Leonard would have struggled with a few journeymen if he'd boxed as many fights as Chavez. That's just how the game works. Great fighters struggle with journeyman from time to time. Always been that way. Journeyman studies a great fighter thinks he'll give it his all to go out and go the distance. Can dine out on it and get a lot more work. Probably why Ray didn't do that many bread and butter fights knew they can sometimes be tricky it's not just the fight it's the training the getting into shape the getting up for a lesser fighter who could make you look bad.

I keep saying it, Ray Leonard is a bit  lucky to get in people's top ten and twenty lists he simply didn't have enough fights despite his amazing skills top 20-25 I'm ok with. How would he have done in the twenties to forties something tells me he wouldn't have done too well in that era ?

Back to Chavez Nelson well all I can say is what a shame it never happened what a fight on paper just an unbelievable fight if they boxed five times maybe it could be 3-2 or a very hard to split 4-1 that's all I'm prepared to say right up there with a Greb Tunney series

That's your opinion on Leonard, but Leonard is the most complete fighter I've ever seen, skill, speed, chin, power, footwork, he had the lot, Leonard is a force in any era in boxing history that's my opinion, but its a Chavez/Nelson thread so I'll leave it at that.

The era debate only ever seems to work one way for some reason, for me it's about quantity of quality; Chavez beating up on numerous Mexican roadsweepers so to speak doesn't add a single thing to his legacy. The championship fights he had against world class opponents is what his legacy is based on and it's the same for Leonard, when you Duran, Hearns, Benitez, Hagler and Kalule on your record beating up on Davey Boy Green doesn't mean anything let Juan Antonio from Tijuana.

Nice to see Ray get a little love on here for a change, it hasn't always been the case. Perhaps milky the retina interrupted his career and but for that his longevity would have been increased. I don't know the timeline I didn't follow the game 80-85 so any insight would be much appreciated milky. Big Leonard fan but sometimes I do question(perhaps needlessly) Ray's overall standing when looking at his entire career

Give me some background on Ray's cocaine use too if you could milky. When did it start etc was it before or after the retina etc?

I only ever recall reading one book on Ray so don't really know a lot about his life and times read the first 80 pages or so of the Four Kings also. Definitely the most complete fighter skill wise for me since the eighties had it all

Hermy, I defend the guy in hagler debates but I'm not the fanboy some might have you believe!

Haven't read his auto- bio. He retired after surgery on a detached retina in 1982, had an unsuccessful 'comeback' performance wise, he won, against Kevin Howard, in 84, so retired again... Then came back for hagler in '87.

So 1 fight in 5, (what would have been prime) years.
I believe he was on the nose candy and alcohol for large portions of that 5 year period, but stand to corrected.