Three Down, One To Go

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37493141

This makes Anayi's words on 'the benefactor model' look even more out of touch.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

You mean like the detail you gave when saying its that simple?

If the WRU were to disappear what ever is to take its place would have to be rubber stamped by World Rugby but if it was PRW then you would be in a quandary as to who you despise then

Because it is that simple. A Union is just a Union of clubs.

World Rugby is just the Union of Unions.

Its not but no point arguing irrelevance with someone like you

No need to argue, you can just highlight my error for all to see. Please, go for it.

So PRL is a Union?

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:
Phill you don't bother me in the slightest. I just like to point out your debating style

You've not mentioned the style, you've just made childlike assumptions and inaccurate barbed comments. I don't think that you've posted on the topic in this thread, just about me instead.

It's touching, honestly, but please don't find me so important that you need to do it. You've made your point.

PRL is a Union?

PhilBB wrote:
The Union gets the funds to pay for grassroots rugby by using the assets of the 'regions' when playing for Team Wales. It's a symbiotic relationship.

If the WRU disappeared, PRW would take control of the national team. It's that simple.

So what happens the amateur game?

Is PRL a Union?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
So what happens the grassroots and amateur game?

Well, you may then get to Hore and Moffett's vision of their being four / five development pathways, the entirety of which is the responsibility of the pro team that sits atop.

I take it PRL is a Union then.

Good that's settled. Now all we have to do is make the Welsh realise they are alone in resisting the idea of Union.

Using philbbs logic, shouldn't the WRU and all other unions be privatised too?

profitius wrote:Using philbbs logic, shouldn't the WRU and all other unions be privatised too?

I'd be interested to read how that is an extension of my 'logic'.

PhilBB wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
So what happens the grassroots and amateur game?

Well, you may then get to Hore and Moffett's vision of their being four / five development pathways, the entirety of which is the responsibility of the pro team that sits atop.

So basically the regions would become mini Unions run by PRW which would be the main Union.This is the model Ireland use,the provinces each have their own branches which control the game in their area.They are all under the umbrella of the IRFU.

profitius wrote:Using philbbs logic, shouldn't the WRU and all other unions be privatised too?

Mourad might come aboard and buy them up. He could then exclusively have games against the ABs in the Millennium.... oh I mean Boudjellal Stadium Cardiff.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
So basically the regions would become mini Unions run by PRW which would be the main Union.This is the model Ireland use,the provinces each have their own branches which control the game in their area.They are all under the umbrella of the IRFU.

Not quite, as there isn't the central body owning all of the professional rugby. The four pro teams in Wales are also independent businesses, which is not the case for the rugby operations in Ireland.

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:Using philbbs logic, shouldn't the WRU and all other unions be privatised too?

I'd be interested to read how that is an extension of my 'logic'.

PRW group of Privates.  WRU collapse, PRW have a right to fill in the role.  WRU privatised?  Yes?

PhilBB wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
So basically the regions would become mini Unions run by PRW which would be the main Union.This is the model Ireland use,the provinces each have their own branches which control the game in their area.They are all under the umbrella of the IRFU.

Not quite, as there isn't the central body owning all of the professional rugby. The four pro teams in Wales are also independent businesses, which is not the case for the rugby operations in Ireland.

I don't see how the regions could possibly fund amateur rugby without massive subsidies from whoever controls the national game.If they are getting the large amount of funding necessary then I don't see how the company/Union/whatever you want to call it would allow them to remain independent.Whoever puts the money in will want a pretty big say in where and how it is used.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

I don't think that, I just don't see how it's a relationship that can work. If they were partly union owned and encouraged investment from wealthy backers, etc - then I don't see it being an issue.

I'm not sure - world rugby bail them out? Has this happened to any top tier union before? I'd be interested to know how they dealt with it. The thing is if they did run out of money, there's nowhere to go. Their obligation is to the game, so they find a way to make it work again. I'm a man who prioritizes international rugby on the world stage so to me privatization will harm that.

Why not? The relationship clearly works here.

The role of the Union is to invest in the grass roots and community clubs. The role of the pro teams is to be successful.

Yes, this has happened to a top tier Union before: the WRU.

Every Union in the world is opening up to private ownership bar the IRFU. That should tell you a story.

I have an issue with this model and you can argue the Union run model does the same, The role of the Pro teams is to be successful and the Union run the grass roots, but with a model like this every thing flows up to the money in the Pro teams and the union have less for gras roots.

Compare say football and the vast wealth of the Premiership, the small town clubs really struggle and the money does not flow down to the grass roots and local football clubs really struggle.
compared to the GAA, where the money isn't focased on the top, small town teams has quality floodlit pitches, members get tracksuits and equiment, minors get hurls, everything to make a small town club appear professonal and get kids involved.
Having your own club tracksuit with your itialals on for a small fee is something that looks like premier league, but small villages can do it, the local football club could only dream about this and a flood lit pitch even having balls for kids games is a struggle.

pro teams is to be successful and union looking after the grass roots isn't always the best model.

Kingshu wrote:compared to the GAA, where the money isn't focased on the top.

I take it you are excluding Dublin from that

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh are subsidisedby their union as well. There really isn't much difference when push comes to shove.

Subsidised is the wrong word. They are paid for services, just as are French and English clubs.

So the Welsh teams get use of players they would otherwise not be able to afford. Quibble on the word but overall a similar impact to the Irish union paying players surely?

Not just the Welsh, but the English and French too, if you're going down that very skewed road.

Again.

You could certainly point to the English clubs picking English players to purely get extra money overall yes. Not much different then, like i said.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/were-not-bank-of-last-resort-irfu-warning-after-confirming-each-province-will-get-1m-34710655.html

That's the wrong article to reference with its inaccurate headline and content.

Really? Let me know the context in which you think it was posted and then we can see how wrong you are about that.

Well since you attached no commentary to it, I placed it in the context of the overall topic and discussion. If you intended to highlight the point of IRFU cannot continue being the lender of last resort, then you could have said this. But the headline of the article focuses on an inaccurate assumption that the IRFU confirmed they were giving the provinces €1m each.

Browne's public statements on the publication of the annual report a couple of months later, the specific bailing out of Munster, and the detail on the €1m being split between the four provinces would have strengthened your argument in my view. But that's just my opinion. The Irish Independent tends to go off half-cocked, and has poor sub-editors who do not read article content properly.

Kingshu wrote:

I have an issue with this model and you can argue the Union run model does the same, The role of the Pro teams is to be successful and the Union run the grass roots, but with a model like this every thing flows up to the money in the Pro teams and the union have less for grass roots.

But not the concern of Pro teams who have shareholders and should only be concerned with their own individual requirements and profit margins. What need for local grassroots at all when you can buy in the fruits of other Nation's grassroot programs?

marty2086 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:compared to the GAA, where the money isn't focased on the top.

I take it you are excluding Dublin from that

Dublin f**Kers! The f**king Toulon of Gaelic Games!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
I don't see how the regions could possibly fund amateur rugby without massive subsidies from whoever controls the national game.If they are getting the large amount of funding necessary then I don't see how the company/Union/whatever you want to call it would allow them to remain independent.Whoever puts the money in will want a pretty big say in where and how it is used.

Hang on, you were the one asking what would happen if the WRU folded. I noted PRW would step in. They'd be generating the income at all levels, in this hypothetical scenario, so I don't follow your post at all.

Kingshu wrote:

I have an issue with this model and you can argue the Union run model does the same, The role of the Pro teams is to be successful and the Union run the grass roots, but with a model like this every thing flows up to the money in the Pro teams and the union have less for gras roots.

Compare say football and the vast wealth of the Premiership, the small town clubs really struggle and the money does not flow down to the grass roots and local football clubs really struggle.
compared to the GAA, where the money isn't focased on the top, small town teams has quality floodlit pitches, members get tracksuits and equiment, minors get hurls, everything to make a small town club appear professonal and get kids involved.
Having your own club tracksuit with your itialals on for a small fee is something that looks like premier league, but small villages can do it, the local football club could only dream about this and a flood lit pitch even having balls for kids games is a struggle.

pro teams is to be successful and union looking after the grass roots isn't always the best model.

Hang on, your critique of the grass roots not getting enough cash comes from an entirely different sport that has an entirely different income model.

Pot Hale wrote:
Well since you attached no commentary to it, I placed it in the context of the overall topic and discussion.  If you intended to highlight the point of IRFU cannot continue being the lender of last resort, then you could have said this.  But the headline of the article focuses on an inaccurate assumption that the IRFU confirmed they were giving the provinces €1m each.  

Browne's public statements on the publication of the annual report a couple of months later, the specific bailing out of Munster, and the detail on the €1m being split between the four provinces would have strengthened your argument in my view.  But that's just my opinion.   The Irish Independent tends to go off half-cocked, and has poor sub-editors who do not read article content properly.  

I posted it to show what would happen if the Union ran out of cash.

PhilBB wrote:

Hang on, your critique of the grass roots not getting enough cash comes from an entirely different sport that has an entirely different income model.

Sport(s). He mentioned more than one sport. One of them being a much more 'successful' model than Rugby (and a model Rugby is chasing after)

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Munster have rejected the private investor model and gone down the Patron route which you can read about it. In 2015, this initiative raised €2m. there are 2 large corporate patrons (I think Independent News & Media & Greencore) and about 30 individual patrons.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/20311.php#.V-zmhCMrL-k

In the new High Performance Centre, they have a joint partnership with an American company running courses in Europe and then there is the Disapora initiative - for the last couple of years Munster organise a dinner in London every September. Its coming up against next month and so far they have sold 300 tickets and are having a silent auction to raise money.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/20316.php#.V-zneSMrL-k

Incidentally, the new Director General of RTE is (or maybe was now) is on the Munster Commerical Board. She is a big Munster fan!

The 'patron route' and private ownership are not mutually exclusive.

In Munster's case they are. Munster have gone down the route of multiple patrons to avoid private ownership - a bit like crowd funding for the wealthy I suppose.

PhilBB wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
I don't see how the regions could possibly fund amateur rugby without massive subsidies from whoever controls the national game.If they are getting the large amount of funding necessary then I don't see how the company/Union/whatever you want to call it would allow them to remain independent.Whoever puts the money in will want a pretty big say in where and how it is used.

Hang on, you were the one asking what would happen if the WRU folded. I noted PRW would step in. They'd be generating the income at all levels, in this hypothetical scenario, so I don't follow your post at all.

Well I actually asked what would happen if they folded and weren't replaced but we went off on this tangent and I'm bored at work.

You noted PRW would step in and I'm just following this line,you say the regions would develop the game in their own area.I say they can't do this without huge investment which will almost certainly have to come from whoever takes over the national team (you say the PRW would do this).Basically if the WRU folds then Welsh rugby converts to the Irish model as the regions won't get this funding and remain independent,that's the logical chain of events as far as I can see.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
Well since you attached no commentary to it, I placed it in the context of the overall topic and discussion.  If you intended to highlight the point of IRFU cannot continue being the lender of last resort, then you could have said this.  But the headline of the article focuses on an inaccurate assumption that the IRFU confirmed they were giving the provinces €1m each.  

Browne's public statements on the publication of the annual report a couple of months later, the specific bailing out of Munster, and the detail on the €1m being split between the four provinces would have strengthened your argument in my view.  But that's just my opinion.   The Irish Independent tends to go off half-cocked, and has poor sub-editors who do not read article content properly.  

I posted it to show what would happen if the Union ran out of cash.

Well, the article doesn't show what would happen if the Union ran out of cash since the IRFU hasn't run out of cash. And the headline creates a false contradiction - 'we can't be lenders of last resort as we hand over €4m to the provinces' would undermine their assertion, if it were true. The fact that the IRFU only gave €250k each to compete with spiralling player wage costs is a far stronger point to make. Although, it's only fair to IRFU to also say that Browne said that the provinces/PRO12 need to improve their revenue generation as a league as opposed to specifically saying the provinces need to bring in private investors.

Nonetheless, as has been said by me and others previously, this is the likely route that the provinces will have to go down, unless other changes occur to improve revenue to clubs. As you and Sin e have pointed out, private monies are being used in certain situations already. Whether that will result in total ownership passing to private sector, or a hybrid model akin to New Zealand, time will tell.

Sin é wrote:

In Munster's case they are. Munster have gone down the route of multiple patrons to avoid private ownership - a bit like crowd funding for the wealthy I suppose.

No, they are not. It's not Munster's call. You can have private ownership and patrons as patrons are just sponsors.

PhilBB wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
I don't see how the regions could possibly fund amateur rugby without massive subsidies from whoever controls the national game.If they are getting the large amount of funding necessary then I don't see how the company/Union/whatever you want to call it would allow them to remain independent.Whoever puts the money in will want a pretty big say in where and how it is used.

Hang on, you were the one asking what would happen if the WRU folded. I noted PRW would step in. They'd be generating the income at all levels, in this hypothetical scenario, so I don't follow your post at all.

Actually looking back I was addressing a post that said this "The WRU pay for the access and use of the players that the regions have spent a fortune on developing from a young age. These players are where they are because of the regions, not because of the WRU"

I was simply illustrating that without the WRU the regions wouldn't have these players to develop in the first place,the regions are a finishing school but the WRU supplies the raw materials.Without the regions then the WRU get a far poorer class of professional player but without the WRU the regions don't have any players or fans as it's kids that play the game who grow up to become future pros or pay to go see the pros.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

You noted PRW would step in and I'm just following this line,you say the regions would develop the game in their own area.I say they can't do this without huge investment which will almost certainly have to come from whoever takes over the national team (you say the PRW would do this).Basically if the WRU folds then Welsh rugby converts to the Irish model as the regions won't get this funding and remain independent,that's the logical chain of events as far as I can see.

Mate, you couldn't be more wrong. You know that PRW are 'the regions', right?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
I was simply illustrating that without the WRU the regions wouldn't have these players to develop in the first place,the regions are a finishing school but the WRU supplies the raw materials.Without the regions then the WRU get a far poorer class of professional player but without the WRU the regions don't have any players or fans as it's kids that play the game who grow up to become future pros or pay to go see the pros.

And I pointed out that the WRU wouldn't have the money to invest without access to resell the assets of PRW, thus making it a symbiotic relationship.

PhilBB wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

You noted PRW would step in and I'm just following this line,you say the regions would develop the game in their own area.I say they can't do this without huge investment which will almost certainly have to come from whoever takes over the national team (you say the PRW would do this).Basically if the WRU folds then Welsh rugby converts to the Irish model as the regions won't get this funding and remain independent,that's the logical chain of events as far as I can see.

Mate, you couldn't be more wrong. You know that PRW are 'the regions', right?

Yes,just like the IRFU are the provinces.So if PRW takes over the national team and the amateur game they become just like the IRFU.

Pot Hale wrote:

Well, the article doesn't show what would happen if the Union ran out of cash since the IRFU hasn't run out of cash.  And the headline creates a false contradiction - 'we can't be lenders of last resort as we hand over €4m to the provinces' would undermine their assertion, if it were true.   The fact that the IRFU only gave €250k each to compete with spiralling player wage costs is a far stronger point to make.   Although, it's only fair to IRFU to also say that Browne said that the provinces/PRO12 need to improve their revenue generation as a league as opposed to specifically saying the provinces need to bring in private investors.

Nonetheless, as has been said by me and others previously, this is the likely route that the provinces will have to go down, unless other changes occur to improve revenue to clubs.   As you and Sin e have pointed out, private monies are being used in certain situations already.   Whether that will result in total ownership passing to private sector, or a hybrid model akin to New Zealand, time will tell.  

I've only read articles that note €500,000 was given to each of the four. Where are you getting €250,000 from?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Yes,just like the IRFU are the provinces.So if PRW takes over the national team and the amateur game they become just like the IRFU.

Except the crucial fact that PRW is an umbrella organisation of four independent businesses, whereas the IRFU has four provincial branches.

Hence the huge difference.

PhilBB wrote:

Mate, you couldn't be more wrong. You know that PRW are 'the regions', right?

And therefore a Union?

One thing I don't understand Phil, if the IRFU model is not working and Irish rugby is going into irreversible decline, surely as a Welshman this would be good for your teams, a weaker Irish team in the 6Ns/RWC, weaker Provinces in the PRO12/ERC means better results for the regions and all in all would usher in a golden age for Welsh club rugby, so why the desire to (in your eyes) make your rivals stronger/better ?

Irish Londoner wrote:One thing I don't understand Phil, if the IRFU model is not working and Irish rugby is going into irreversible decline, surely as a Welshman this would be good for your teams, a weaker Irish team in the 6Ns/RWC, weaker Provinces in the PRO12/ERC means better results for the regions and all in all would usher in a golden age for Welsh club rugby, so why the desire to (in your eyes) make your rivals stronger/better ?

The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

marty2086 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:compared to the GAA, where the money isn't focased on the top.

I take it you are excluding Dublin from that

Dublin GAA are the big earners - but per head of population I doubt if they do better out of GAA HQ than any village in Ireland (north & south).

The GAA's turnover this year I think was just about 100m (compared to IRFU of about 70m and FAI 45m).

Another small obstacle for a B&I League remains; why would the English want it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another small obstacle for a B&I League remains; why would the English want it?

For the same reasons explained to you countless times.

Ah, so no good reason!

Good choice moving it on from Unions though; you were getting mauled.

Sin é wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:compared to the GAA, where the money isn't focased on the top.

I take it you are excluding Dublin from that

Dublin GAA are the big earners - but per head of population I doubt if they do better out of GAA HQ than any village in Ireland (north & south).

The GAA's turnover this year I think was just about 100m (compared to IRFU of about 70m and FAI 45m).

Dublin GAA are big getters, Sin. There is no way around the truth that they are the only virtually 'professional' outfit in GAA and therefore making a mockery of the word called 'competitiveness'

PhilBB wrote:The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

With the greatest respect Phil, the major obstacle to the formation of a B & I league is that the English clubs and the RFU do not want it to happen !

PhilBB wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
I was simply illustrating that without the WRU the regions wouldn't have these players to develop in the first place,the regions are a finishing school but the WRU supplies the raw materials.Without the regions then the WRU get a far poorer class of professional player but without the WRU the regions don't have any players or fans as it's kids that play the game who grow up to become future pros or pay to go see the pros.

And I pointed out that the WRU wouldn't have the money to invest without access to resell the assets of PRW, thus making it a symbiotic relationship.

I disagree,they could put out a Wales team without any of the regions players and while they would be a weak team they'd still draw crowds and generate revenue.The WRU created the regions so obviously they were able to get the money to invest without them.The regions could not function without all the players and fans that are provided by the work the WRU does.

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:One thing I don't understand Phil, if the IRFU model is not working and Irish rugby is going into irreversible decline, surely as a Welshman this would be good for your teams, a weaker Irish team in the 6Ns/RWC, weaker Provinces in the PRO12/ERC means better results for the regions and all in all would usher in a golden age for Welsh club rugby, so why the desire to (in your eyes) make your rivals stronger/better ?

The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

PRL is a Union. PRW is a Union. What you want is that when the Irish arrive in any future B&I Competition, they come ready with their manners, and say "Thank you, sir" when they are told the role they'll be having and how the 'League' will pan out. You don't want a strong IRFU turning up to do the negotiating.

All's fair in love and war though, even wishing plague, pestilence and weakness on your darkest rivals

PhilBB wrote:For the same reasons explained to you countless times.

Go on, go on, go on, you know we want to hear it again

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:One thing I don't understand Phil, if the IRFU model is not working and Irish rugby is going into irreversible decline, surely as a Welshman this would be good for your teams, a weaker Irish team in the 6Ns/RWC, weaker Provinces in the PRO12/ERC means better results for the regions and all in all would usher in a golden age for Welsh club rugby, so why the desire to (in your eyes) make your rivals stronger/better ?

The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

If the Irish model is weak, what does that say about the Welsh model?

Why would the Irish model be an obstruction to your fantasy B&I league? Is it a fantasy obstruction?

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:One thing I don't understand Phil, if the IRFU model is not working and Irish rugby is going into irreversible decline, surely as a Welshman this would be good for your teams, a weaker Irish team in the 6Ns/RWC, weaker Provinces in the PRO12/ERC means better results for the regions and all in all would usher in a golden age for Welsh club rugby, so why the desire to (in your eyes) make your rivals stronger/better ?

The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

If the Irish model is weak, what does that say about the Welsh model?

Why would the Irish model be an obstruction to your fantasy B&I league? Is it a fantasy obstruction?

Fantasy Obliteration is what Phill wants

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Well, the article doesn't show what would happen if the Union ran out of cash since the IRFU hasn't run out of cash.  And the headline creates a false contradiction - 'we can't be lenders of last resort as we hand over €4m to the provinces' would undermine their assertion, if it were true.   The fact that the IRFU only gave €250k each to compete with spiralling player wage costs is a far stronger point to make.   Although, it's only fair to IRFU to also say that Browne said that the provinces/PRO12 need to improve their revenue generation as a league as opposed to specifically saying the provinces need to bring in private investors.

Nonetheless, as has been said by me and others previously, this is the likely route that the provinces will have to go down, unless other changes occur to improve revenue to clubs.   As you and Sin e have pointed out, private monies are being used in certain situations already.   Whether that will result in total ownership passing to private sector, or a hybrid model akin to New Zealand, time will tell.  

I've only read articles that note €500,000 was given to each of the four. Where are you getting €250,000 from?

Yes, The Sunday Independent ran with a report on 1 May saying the provinces would be 'lobbed' €500k each this year and the same again in 2017.

I'm not sure if journalists are not listening properly or if actual additional monies for salaries and monies for other development purposes are being being cobbled together. The IRFU has made clear that it is going to invest more money into the development pathways - at academy and club level and gave a clear figure against that at annual report publication.

The IRFU published three releases at this time - you can read them on irish rugby.ie , including the one about an additional €1m between four provinces to help them compete on player salaries - here http://www.irishrugby.ie/mobile/provincial/37757.php