Connacht v Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Connacht Rugby v Ulster Rugby

Friday 7th October 2016, 19:35 Kick Off
Sportsground, Galway
Live on TG4 and BBC NI

Team News
Connacht
(15-9): Tiernan O’Halloran, Niyi Adeolokun, Bundee Aki, Craig Ronaldson, Cian Kelleher, Jack Carty, Caolin Blade
(1-8): Finlay Bealham, Dave Heffernan, Conor Carey, Ultan Dillane, Andrew Browne, Eoin McKeon, Jake Heenan, John Muldoon (captain)
Replacements:

(16-23): Shane Delahunt, Ronan Loughney, JP Cooney, Lewis Stevenson, James Connolly, Stephen Kerins, Stacey Ili

Ulster
(15-9): J Payne (C); T Bowe, L Ludik, D Cave, C Gilroy; P Jackson, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Best, R Ah You, R Diack, P Browne, I Henderson, C Ross, R Wilson;

Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, R Kane, K Treadwell, S Reidy, D Shanahan, B Herron, R Lyttle

So it's a big Irish derby this weekend with plenty of significance for both teams even if it's early in the season.  Both teams will want to launch in their respective European campaigns with a win here.  Ulster arrive unbeaten league leaders and coming off the back of a hard fought win v Ospreys and will look to remain top going into the European matches. Connacht on the other hand endured a torrid start to the season with 3 losses in a row punctuated only by a postponed match, however they finally got some traction with a win over Edinburgh in round 5 and will look to build on that with this home interpro.

Don Alfonso wrote:1) McCall
2) Best
3) Ah You
4) Browne
5) Treadwell
6) Henderson
7) Reidy
8) Wilson
9) Pienaar
10) Jackson
11) Gilroy
12) Cave
13) Ludik
14) Bowe
15) Payne

is what I'd go with, but I expect something different.

Is Olding not available?

Oh, next weekend. Well I still expect to win but win ugly...

I might be inclined to keep Ludik at 15 and Payne at 13. If you swap those two around, thats our best attacking back line available but if they play in those positions thats our best defensive back line.

Ross isn't a bad shout Don, him in for Wilson might be the right move to rest him for next week

Ross, Reidy, Wilson in the back row for me. Henderson at lock. But Henderson may well not be at his best if he's on antibiotics etc.

It's weird, I'm almost relieved we have Europe coming up with all these injuries. I really want to win the Pro12, Europe is a bonus.

Uh-oh.

Ulster team and replacements to play Connacht, Friday 7th October, Sportsground (kick-off 7.35pm, live on BBC2 NI & TG4):

(15-9): J Payne (C); T Bowe, L Ludik, D Cave, C Gilroy; P Jackson, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Best, R Ah You, R Diack, P Browne, I Henderson, C Ross, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, R Kane, K Treadwell, S Reidy, D Shanahan, B Herron, R Lyttle.

Ok wheres Ruan?

Pienaar rested altogether. Unless there are circumstances outside the public domain, we're walking a bit of a tightrope... We have less cover at scrum-half than any other position. On the one hand, I get very nervous indeed when I see Ruan rested. On the other hand, we need to manage him so he peaks in May.

We desperately need to announce a big signing there. I don't even think there is a good enough Irish player who can step in. Ideally we'll sign an NIQ player and an Irish understudy for next season and negotiate the understudy gets a certain amount of game time. However, given the ignorant stance the IRFU have taken on this already I think we're totally screwed.

Notch wrote:We desperately need to announce a big signing there. I don't even think there is a good enough Irish player who can step in. Ideally we'll sign an NIQ player and an Irish understudy for next season and negotiate the understudy gets a certain amount of game time. However, given the ignorant stance the IRFU have taken on this already I think we're totally screwed.

Maybe Aaron Smith will be free of his international commitments for a while

Can't see us being allowed another NIQ player unless its a project which may be hard with Leinster having Gibson-Park

The only Irish player I think is good enough to do a job for us is Marmion, but I can't see us getting him.

On the positive side:

Hendo (at blindside) and Bowe starting.
Payne at fullback.
With Browne, Diack and Hendo we should have safe line-out ball and put real pressure on theirs.
A few good young bucks on the bench (Kane, Herron and Lyttle).

Notch wrote:The only Irish player I think is good enough to do a job for us is Marmion, but I can't see us getting him.

Well his contract is up at the end of this season so maybe that's what the IRFU are trying to push us towards

You realise all this chat is going to get our opponents very, very fired up.

Think Lams done that already but why do you think Marmions not playing, failed a fitness test?

Don't want him helping his new teammates out

marty2086 wrote:Think Lams done that already but why do you think Marmions not playing, failed a fitness test?

Don't want him helping his new teammates out

I'm not saying he and Rodney Ah You are definitely going for a coffee and a chat after the game, but he and Rodney Ah You are definitely going for a coffee and a chat after the game

Maybe that's why we really got rid of Lewis Stevenson? So he could end up at Connacht and have a word with Marmion, see it's this kind of long term planning we all just don't see

Connacht Team

15 Tiernan O’Halloran (105)
14 Niyi Adeolokun (36)
13 Bundee Aki (45)
12 Craig Ronaldson (51)
11 Cian Kelleher (3)
10 Jack Carty (58)
9 Caolin Blade (24)

1 Finlay Bealham (61)
2 Dave Heffernan (61)
3 Conor Carey (1)
4 Ultan Dillane (31)
5 Andrew Browne (144)
6 Eoin McKeon (89)
7 Jake Heenan (36)
8 John Muldoon (captain) (279)

Replacements:

16 Shane Delahunt (17)
17 Ronan Loughney (187)
18 JP Cooney (31)
19 Lewis Stevenson (4)
20 James Connolly (20)
21 Stephen Kerins (0)
22 Shane O’Leary (18)
23 Stacey Ili (0)

With us so short of centres these days maybe someone should have a word with Bundee and see if he fancies a move north

I think Connacht have an advantage over us at 9, the back three and potentially the back row. But our tight five should be better and we have a big advantage over them at 10.

I think we'll still win because we have looked much better organised than Connacht this season.

Notch wrote:I think Connacht have an advantage over us at 9, the back three and potentially the back row. But our tight five should be better and we have a big advantage over them at 10.

I think we'll still win because we have looked much better organised than Connacht this season.

The back three? Seriously? I know it's de rigeur to wax lyrical about the speed and skill of Connacht's back three these days, but I;d take Payne over O'Halloran, Gilroy over Kelleher and the other match-up depends on how rusty Bowe is.

I do think they have a comfortably better backrow as a unit. We might be able to get the nudge on in the scrum, however.

Marmion or Hart
I think its most likely we will have to go down the project Player route

Also I feel sorry for Connacht, in two years the title winning team is ripped ashunder
Ah You - Ulster
Henshaw - Leinster
Muldowney - Grenoble

Then maybe as rumoured

Ultan Dillane - Munster
Bundee Aki - Munster
Kieran Marmion - Ulster

In fairness, we gave them Niall O'Connor, Willie Falloon, Thomas Anderson, Mark McCrea, Ian Porter, Mike McComish and others, as well as both their starting props tomorrow (good work, Allen Clarke).

And I wouldn't believe those rumours about the Connacht players, regardless. I recall being told that Bowe was 100% going to Leinster when he returned to Ireland from the Ospreys, as well as being assured he was definitely going to Munster. As was Stephen Ferris.

I'll feel very sorry for them if we get any of their better players. I don't think it's right. But better that than see us slip behind the pack.

I hate how dog eat dog rugby has become but when we're competing against better resourced French and English clubs and the IRFU are turning players like Pienaar away, it's pretty desperate. You can't not use any of the levers you have.

There goes my confidence to win the game. Why is Pienaar not playing? Saving him for next week? It doesn't make much sense to rest Pienaar when we have so many injuries. I would rather we focused on winning the PRO12.

Don Alfonso wrote:The back three? Seriously? I know it's de rigeur to wax lyrical about the speed and skill of Connacht's back three these days, but I;d take Payne over O'Halloran, Gilroy over Kelleher and the other match-up depends on how rusty Bowe is.

I just feel we are going to badly struggle with their pace and if Marshalls kicking is poor we're going to be tested. Thats why I wish Ludik was at 15.

Kingshu wrote:Marmion or Hart
I think its most likely we will have to go down the project Player route

Also I feel sorry for Connacht, in two years the title winning team is ripped ashunder
Ah You - Ulster
Henshaw - Leinster
Muldowney - Grenoble

Then maybe as rumoured

Ultan Dillane - Munster
Bundee Aki - Munster
Kieran Marmion - Ulster

If any of that is true, then it looks bad and probably illustrates that all along, Connacht is still designated as a 'finishing school' for the other three Provinces in the minds of the IRFU officials. With Lam there and the kind of rugby he's been championing over there (ie, a rapid-fire kind that is better suited to attack the SH International sides) it would be a shame to take a lot of that established platform away from him and force him to be a 'teacher' again rather than a high class winning coach in his own right with high class players to work with.

With so many players missing I reckon we could have done with Ruan being fielded or at the very least benched. We will be in need of some wise heads to stifle the headless chickens on the squad. I still think we have more than enough to win but perhaps the fingernails will be getting another nibbling tomorrow.

On the player movement front I sincerely hope the IRFU don't force Marmion Ulster's way. Connacht are being as badly abused by the Nazifora squad as Pienaar has been. I keep saying it, I won't give up on a U-turn by the IRFU on Pienaar. Common sense says so, not that common sense ever had a chance.

Pete330v2 wrote:Common sense says so, not that common sense ever had a chance.

It's already done!

Pienaar will leave seasons end.

I hope Marmion isn't forced to Ulster. It wouldn't sit right with me at all.

SecretFly wrote:If any of that is true, then it looks bad and probably illustrates that all along, Connacht is still designated as a 'finishing school' for the other three Provinces in the minds of the IRFU officials.  With Lam there and the kind of rugby he's been championing over there (ie, a rapid-fire kind that is better suited to attack the SH International sides) it would be a shame to take a lot of that established platform away from him and force him to be a 'teacher' again rather than a high class winning coach in his own right with high class players to work with.

Thats only true if the IRFU have removed the rule preventing provinces outbidding each other. Although, international recognition is a factor if the perception exists playing with more internationals gives you a better chance. And it does of course. Playing with better players makes you look better. It just comes down to loyalty. Why wouldn't Ah You leave to play with Best for example? And yet players like Earls didn't leave for Leinster, Muldoon to Munster or Ulster, Bowe to Leinster etc. when it would have greatly benefited them.

Ultimately when they limit non-Irish players in key positions and there is a quality deficit this is going to happen. I just hope Marmion doesn't have that provincial loyalty and thinks playing with Jackson would help their career because the alternative is pretty bad.

Kingshu wrote:Marmion or Hart
I think its most likely we will have to go down the project Player route

Hart joined Racing over the summer, they bought out the last year of his contract

Munchkin wrote:Pienaar will leave seasons end.

I hope Marmion isn't forced to Ulster. It wouldn't sit right with me at all.

You can't force anyone to go anywhere. He'd be offered the same value of contract by Ulster as Connacht and would have a choice.

The other alternative is that the IRFU offers him a central contract conditional on moving, which is hamfisted, stupid and wrong. And is the kind of thing that drives players overseas. So lets hope that does not happen

No-one has ever been forced to another province.

The IRFU actually tried to get Henshaw to stay at Connacht - he wanted to go.

Don that all depends who you ask but its all rumours

Yeah, it is. I'm not sure they really care about Connacht keeping him, but equally I don';t think they railroaded him into going to Leinster.

Don Alfonso wrote:No-one has ever been forced to another province.

The IRFU actually tried to get Henshaw to stay at Connacht - he wanted to go.

We keep telling the Welsh that the IRFU own the Provinces.... then other times we try to believe they don't.

IRFU phone call to Leinster:  "We think Henshaw is going to be asking you guys to take him in.  Don't.  Offer him a load of excuses why you can't and we'll give him a few more quid for staying in Connacht."

Okay, so I'm being facetious but that's not to say that I don't believe those kinds of chats can't or don't happen behind the scenes.  
We all know Nucifora has a pretty tight grip on the tiller and that the alleged freeform moving of players from there to here is probably the result of more planning than just the whims of an Individual player's ambitions and ego.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Pienaar will leave seasons end.

I hope Marmion isn't forced to Ulster. It wouldn't sit right with me at all.

You can't force anyone to go anywhere. He'd be offered the same value of contract by Ulster as Connacht and would have a choice.

The other alternative is that the IRFU offers him a central contract conditional on moving, which is hamfisted, stupid and wrong. And is the kind of thing that drives players overseas.

Yes you can. If players are made to feel their only real chance of making it as an international is to move to another Province, then that's forcing a player in one direction.
Why would Marmion leave Connacht to join Ulster, or any other Province, when Connacht have a great coach and are current PRO12 champions? It would only happen if Nucifora applied pressure on Marmion to make the move.

I have huge respect for Provincial loyalty. It's what makes the Provinces what they are. If Jackson was to declare that he's moving to Connacht because he's no sense of loyalty to Ulster, how would that make you feel?

Actually, I think Nuciforas almost total failure to get players to move between the provinces means that almost certainly isn't true.

The IRFU gets involved as much as they can but while they can block players from signing contracts you can't force them to sign one.

Notch wrote:Actually, I think Nuciforas almost total failure to get players to move between the provinces means that almost certainly isn't true.

The IRFU gets involved as much as they can but while they can block players from signing contracts you can't force them to sign one.

But we are talking about a hypothetical move to Ulster.

I'm not against strategic moving of players within the Irish system - better a player moves from Leinster to Ulster than to have him meet Leinster as a Saracens player or as a Clermont player.

But I'd just hope the IRFU genuinely see Connacht as now a third fourth strong Province rather than still a place where players go to improve and then move on to one of the other three 'More Important' Provinces.

Munchkin wrote:If Jackson was to declare that he's moving to Connacht because he's no sense of loyalty to Ulster, how would that make you feel?

It would be as big a disaster for us as losing Pienaar. Except with the added twist of the knife being no-one was forcing him out. We all know how it feels because its what we went through when Bowe left. To stop that kind of thing from happening to us, we need to be on top of the league and doing very well financially not just relying on provincial loyalty. The quality of players coming in to Ulster was one of the main reasons players like Ferris gave for re-signing. We can't afford to not replace a key player because if it affects our results more key players may follow.

I totally and completely agree with you. But I while I want four strong provinces, I want Ulster to be the top province, win silverware and compete in Finals and semi-finals every year. I think there's only three scrum-halves who can help make that happen in the Irish system once Pienaar leaves, without needing to be carried by other players to some extent. Conor Murray and Gibson-Park aren't going anywhere whatsoever. So it would be very amateurish from Ulster if we weren't pursuing Marmion. He can say no, of course, but it would be dishonest of me to say I don't think Ulster should try and make it happen in the wake of whats happened with Pienaar. It's about keeping the train on the rails.

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:Actually, I think Nuciforas almost total failure to get players to move between the provinces means that almost certainly isn't true.

The IRFU gets involved as much as they can but while they can block players from signing contracts you can't force them to sign one.

But we are talking about a hypothetical move to Ulster.

Yeah, and if he doesn't want to leave Connacht he won't.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:If Jackson was to declare that he's moving to Connacht because he's no sense of loyalty to Ulster, how would that make you feel?

It would be as big a disaster for us as losing Pienaar. Except with the added twist of the knife being no-one was forcing him out. We all know how it feels because its what we went through when Bowe left. To stop that kind of thing from happening to us, we need to be on top of the league and doing very well financially not just relying on provincial loyalty. The quality of players coming in to Ulster was one of the main reasons players like Ferris gave for re-signing. We can't afford to not replace a key player because if it affects our results more key players may follow.

I totally and completely agree with you. But I while I want four strong provinces, I want Ulster to be the top province, win silverware and compete in Finals and semi-finals every year. I think there's only three scrum-halves who can help make that happen in the Irish system once Pienaar leaves, without needing to be carried by other players to some extent. Conor Murray and Gibson-Park aren't going anywhere whatsoever. So it would be very amateurish from Ulster if we weren't pursuing Marmion. He can say no, of course, but it would be dishonest of me to say I don't think Ulster should try and make it happen in the wake of whats happened with Pienaar. It's about keeping the train on the rails.

I agree with most of that, Notch. By loyalty I really mean a sense of belonging and identity to a particular Province. I think it's important that each of the Provinces have their own identity and moving key/iconic players from one Province to the next will weaken that sense of loyalty, of identity and belonging.

I think it's right if players are not getting game time in one Province that they are encouraged to move to another. Good for the players development and it's good for both Provinces. For Marmion to move to Ulster, it may be good for Ulster, but not for Connacht, and poor reward for their recent success. If Nucifora wasn't forcing Pienaar out it wouldn't be a consideration, so in that sense it can also be viewed as forcing Marmion to Ulster, if that were to happen.

You say it would be Marmions choice, and ultimately it would, but then players can be manipulated into making a certain choice.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:Actually, I think Nuciforas almost total failure to get players to move between the provinces means that almost certainly isn't true.

The IRFU gets involved as much as they can but while they can block players from signing contracts you can't force them to sign one.

But we are talking about a hypothetical move to Ulster.

Yeah, and if he doesn't want to leave Connacht he won't.

True, but that doesn't mean pressure isn't applied to make that move.

On the wider chat on gutting Connacht, I think as long as Lam stays we will be in ok nick. He inspires his players enough currently that we may even get a couple of excellent players come our way. The big problem with COnnacht is Galway is a tiny city. And even alot of born and bred connacht players aren't from there, but around the province. So while there are clear advantages to the city life of Dublin/Belfast/Cork/Limerick, Galway's tiny size isn't as compelling for young lads full of fire and fun. That is honestly why i think Henshaw went to Dublin (and can't blame him). If Marmion wants to go, then he will go. I will be sickened, but he has given his all to Connacht and respect him.

On tomorrow's game, we have an uncapped 9 on the bench and a starting 9 with 2 seasons under his belt... Strange that ulster fans think we have an advantage at 9. I would say we have maybe 5 players who would make the starting lineup, despite Ulster losing so many of their 723 centre options to injury. I think we might scrape by with a2 point win or Ulster will blow us out of the water.

BBC reporting Charles Piutau's injury as delayed onset concussion - how does this compare to ordinary concussion, how concerning is it going forward?

I wonder if Ulster can afford to buy Harts contact out, i doubt it.

Also with Niyi Adeolokun being called up to charlton house, he's a great player and not a project Player, but I still think I would have preferred him to line out for Nigeria.

Same with Tim Visser and the Netherlands (although he was a project).

I just feel that in terms of promoting rugby worldwide, these players could be superstars in thier National team.

Actually it would be different with Adeolokun as if he became NIQ, it would effect his chances of getting a new contract.

tough spot to be in actually, and with Visser he may not have got the professional contract if he didn't express intrest in playing for Scotland.

Think this throws a few more things to discuss, and think about.

wolfball wrote:On the wider chat on gutting Connacht, I think as long as Lam stays we will be in ok nick. He inspires his players enough currently that we may even get a couple of excellent players come our way. The big problem with COnnacht is Galway is a tiny city. And even alot of born and bred connacht players aren't from there, but around the province. So while there are clear advantages to the city life of Dublin/Belfast/Cork/Limerick, Galway's tiny size isn't as compelling for young lads full of fire and fun. That is honestly why i think Henshaw went to Dublin (and can't blame him). If Marmion wants to go, then he will go. I will be sickened, but he has given his all to Connacht and respect him.

On tomorrow's game, we have an uncapped 9 on the bench and a starting 9 with 2 seasons under his belt... Strange that ulster fans think we have an advantage at 9. I would say we have maybe 5 players who would make the starting lineup, despite Ulster losing so many of their 723 centre options to injury. I think we might scrape by with a2 point win or Ulster will blow us out of the water.

Paul Marshall is much maligned, at least in part because he's not Pienaar. He's quite capable of having good games, occasionally even a great game. Ulster fans forget how much of the each season Pienaar has regularly missed, because he played in the 4N/RWC etc. If Marshall were as poor as we make out, we would never get to the business end of the season with anything to play for. He's better than Duncan Williams, TOL, Blade and Kerins.

Kingshu wrote:I wonder if Ulster can afford to buy Harts contact out, i doubt it.

Also with Niyi Adeolokun being called up to charlton house, he's a great player and not a project Player, but I still think I would have preferred him to line out for Nigeria.

Same with Tim Visser and the Netherlands (although he was a project).

I just feel that in terms of promoting rugby worldwide, these players could be superstars in thier National team.

Actually it would be different with Adeolokun as if he became NIQ, it would effect his chances of getting a new contract.

tough spot to be in actually, and with Visser he may not have got the professional contract if he didn't express intrest in playing for Scotland.

Think this throws a few more things to discuss, and think about.

I really hate the project player dyanmic also but to bring up Niyi in that context is strange. Niyi has lived in ireland since he was 10... He learned to play rugby in Ireland. Far from a project player, and closer to saying Heaslip should play for Israel...

I actually like Paul Marshall, and while he is more likily to make mistakes than Pienaar he does make zipping runs around the fringes, that Pienaar can't.

I actually think that its a strenght to bring him on as teams have done there homework on Pienaar and are not overly defending the fringes, and when Marshall comes on hes a bit of an unknown, and they are not set up to defend the fringes. (I rem this most v Tigers in welford road a few years ago).

I like the different stenghts they bring and that its not a like for like swap.