IRFU Finances - with ecumenical matter.

First topic message reminder :

Ok - don't say you weren't warned.

If you've no interest in spreadsheets, balance sheets, profit and loss accounts, annual reports, etc., then this topic is not for you. (I'm looking at you, Fly)

If on the other hand, there are Irish fans who want to know more about how finances in Irish rugby work, courtesy of published Annual Reports, media articles and mutterings, AGMs, then feel free to join in.

The intent behind this Topic is  for contributors to talk through/explain or ask questions about how different aspects of the finances in Irish rugby operate from grassroots through to National Team.  

Updated 26 Oct 2020

ESTIMATE
IRFU Expenditure 2019/20 - 15 months

Men's Test Team Costs
National tours, camps and squads 299,398
National match costs 2,616,509
National Team Management & staff 15 months 2,500,000
Mgmt/Test Player bonuses/match fees/insurance 2,750,000
Central Contract Test Players 14-15 X €500k avg 7,500,000
Additional 3 months of Test player salaries 1,875,000

Provincial Support Costs
IRFU exceptional contribution grant split by 4 branches 1,750,000
80 players x €90,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 7,200,000
65 players x €50,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 3,250,000
Additional 3 months of provincial player salaries 2,562,500
Rebate of Provincial Competition Income (CI) 16,029,521

Total expenditure cost for 15 months on Professional Game - €48,327,540.

That's just to kick things off.  Feel free to contribute.

And not always the right ones

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I read somewhere that the NIO is providing most of the money for the Womens Rugby World Cup. I'm sure they're providing something, just don't know how much.

So, how much are these ROI sports grants to Northern Ireland worth, and who gets them?

One of the organisations I was involved with was Mountaineering Ireland which would occasionally run projects that might provide alpine training for promising young people. The ROI Sports Council would just give a lump sum towards it, whereas NI Sports Council would only grant aid per person from NI. ROI would contribute even if it ended up that there were no people from Rep. involved.

So, Mountaineering Ireland (Sister of Mountaineering Netherland) is a cross border organisation? Just like the Womens Rugby World Cup, which the NIO invests in....

You still haven't told me who from Northern Ireland actually receives this ROI sports grant, and how much? Ok, Mountaineering Ireland, but how much do they get, and how involved are those from the Northern Irish side?

The way it would work is that MI would receive core funding from Sports Ireland which would cover the cost of employees (CEO, Training Officer, Access and Conservation Officer, Admin etc as well as supplying cheap accommodation to work from). I just checked and that amounted to about 200K last year from their accounts. Sport NI contributed about 7K core funding which covers the cost of a part-time Youth Officer based in Tollymore Mountain Centre (which is owned and operated by Sport NI). This Youth Officer only works in NI, whereas all the other people cover 32 counties. Sports NI contributes to elite athlete programmes (which I think are financial support for indoor climbers to compete internationally and at world games etc). Sport Ireland also contributes funding for the promotion of walking.

Sport NI funded the building of the climbing wall in Tollymore (Hot Rock) which is owned and managed by MI. There is a separate limited company set up in NI which has two directors, both of whom are from and resident in NI, with no involvement really from anyone who is from the ROI.

Just for the record, no one has a problem with how this operates - everyone feels and are proud of the fact that MI has always been a 32 county organisation. Mind you, my experience is that you Northerners would argue about 2 flies going up a wall and need us southerners to keep the peace between you

Sin é wrote:Mind you, my experience is that you Northerners would argue about 2 flies going up a wall and need us southerners to keep the peace between you

Thats an outrageous allegation! You'll not find a more accommodating and agreeable bunch of people in Europe, and I will tell anyone who thinks otherwise they're wrong until the cows come home

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Mind you, my experience is that you Northerners would argue about 2 flies going up a wall and need us southerners to keep the peace between you

Thats an outrageous allegation! You'll not find a more accommodating and agreeable bunch of people in Europe, and I will tell anyone who thinks otherwise they're wrong until the cows come home

Shut up, Notch. I'm sick of your nonsense.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I read somewhere that the NIO is providing most of the money for the Womens Rugby World Cup. I'm sure they're providing something, just don't know how much.

So, how much are these ROI sports grants to Northern Ireland worth, and who gets them?

One of the organisations I was involved with was Mountaineering Ireland which would occasionally run projects that might provide alpine training for promising young people. The ROI Sports Council would just give a lump sum towards it, whereas NI Sports Council would only grant aid per person from NI. ROI would contribute even if it ended up that there were no people from Rep. involved.

So, Mountaineering Ireland (Sister of Mountaineering Netherland) is a cross border organisation? Just like the Womens Rugby World Cup, which the NIO invests in....

You still haven't told me who from Northern Ireland actually receives this ROI sports grant, and how much? Ok, Mountaineering Ireland, but how much do they get, and how involved are those from the Northern Irish side?

The way it would work is that MI would receive core funding from Sports Ireland which would cover the cost of employees (CEO, Training Officer, Access and Conservation Officer, Admin etc as well as supplying cheap accommodation to work from). I just checked and that amounted to about 200K last year from their accounts. Sport NI contributed about 7K core funding which covers the cost of a part-time Youth Officer based in Tollymore Mountain Centre (which is owned and operated by Sport NI). This Youth Officer only works in NI, whereas all the other people cover 32 counties. Sports NI contributes to elite athlete programmes (which I think are financial support for indoor climbers to compete internationally and at world games etc). Sport Ireland also contributes funding for the promotion of walking.

Sport NI funded the building of the climbing wall in Tollymore (Hot Rock) which is owned and managed by MI. There is a separate limited company set up in NI which has two directors, both of whom are from and resident in NI, with no involvement really from anyone who is from the ROI.

Just for the record, no one has a problem with how this operates - everyone feels and are proud of the fact that MI has always been a 32 county organisation. Mind you, my experience is that you Northerners would argue about 2 flies going up a wall and need us southerners to keep the peace between you

"Sin é, the peacekeeper

I get the impression that Sport Ireland invest in the ROI side and Sport NI invests in Northern Ireland side with Mountaineering Ireland doing all the cross border work.

I have hiked around the Mourne range many, many, times. It's a different world, and those that can hillwalk but don't, don't know what they're missing. It's a wonderful experience and Mountaineering Ireland deserves all the support it can get to encourage others to get involved.

I've spent a fair bit of time in the Mournes myself! Fantastic spot and very accessible. Some world class climbing in Northern Ireland like Fair Head and in the Mournes. Climbing and walking would be quite big in NI in comparison to the ROI where most kids all end up playing GAA rather than joining the scouts! While ROI Gov. are the main fund providers, the people involved from NI have put a lifetime's work (like Dawson Stelfox) who I think might have been one of the founders of MI and has put as much effort into promoting mountaineering in the Republic as he has in NI. Some really fantastic people involved and for a very long time. Unlike most other sporting organisations there is no glory or financial gain to be had (like Olympics, football etc). Its all done for the love of the sport.

Border hiking was always a bit of an issue when I was growing up and when these mountains/hills of Cooley and such were the closest potential hikes.
The major reason was that you didn't want to go on a nice innocent hike of a lovely soft day and stumble across a freshly dead citizen!............ or more importantly, stumble across a few citizens in the act of burying said unfortunate citizen.  You didn't want putting any guys to the effort of digging two holes instead of one.

And I joke, as you must about our grim past, but that was the very real fear that kept recreational hikers off those Cooleys.  And in a real sense that was one of the things I was most angry about growing up in that period - that basterdes out to kill and maim spoiled the potential fun and enjoyment to be had in those locations.  In those days, we'd go to Wicklow instead for our Mountain experiences.  A shame and a crime.

Things are different now but, still, for anyone that went through it, those feelings about those same hilly places remains in the mind.  You still think back to the decades that spoiled and sullied such beautiful places.

Growing up near the border in Derry we used to walk or cycle over the border all the time, usually on the back roads to get into Donegal, either to go fishing, walking or to the beach.
As we got older we also used go to the pubs are the pubs shut on a Sunday in NI.
One night walking back with some mates from a session, I stepped off the road and onto the verge for a wee and the next thing I heard was a broad English voice going "you dirty Irish B*****d!", there was a group of soldiers hiding in the field and I'd wee'd on one of them. Luckily the rest of the soldiers saw the funny side and we were told to clear off.

Irish Londoner wrote:Growing up near the border in Derry we used to walk or cycle over the border all the time, usually on the back roads to get into Donegal, either to go fishing, walking or to the beach.
As we got older we also used go to the pubs are the pubs shut on a Sunday in NI.
One night walking back with some mates from a session, I stepped off the road and onto the verge for a wee and the next thing I heard was a broad English voice going "you dirty Irish B*****d!", there was a group of soldiers hiding in the field and I'd wee'd on one of them. Luckily the rest of the soldiers saw the funny side and we were told to clear off.

Just waterin' me own land, lads.... just waterin' me own land.

Good revision Pot

SecretFly wrote:Good revision Pot

Indeed, Fly. The Irish attention span is quite short.

Next up -

Luxury. I remember when we used to live in paper bag at side of border near a mountain in the middle of a terrorist training camp with bullets flying over our heads at 6 in the morning as we struggled to put on our hiking boots whilst stuffing our maps and Silva compasses into our rucksacks.

All this chat of how hard it was in the border areas during the Troubles from the 'aul fellas on the board just reminds me of how lucky my generation is to be able to do so many things we take for granted.

The other day I was walking through East Belfast and I cut through the Short Strand to get onto Templemore Avenue. Basically walking through one of the most nationalist parts of Belfast to near to one of the most loyalist areas of Belfast- it's kind of surreal, going straight from signs saying "Brits Out" on one street to curbstones painted red, white and blue on the next street. No way would my parents have done that at my age, no chance!

Also my Mum goes hillwalking in the Cooleys and in the Mournes all the time, not a bother now.

SecretFly wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Growing up near the border in Derry we used to walk or cycle over the border all the time, usually on the back roads to get into Donegal, either to go fishing, walking or to the beach.
As we got older we also used go to the pubs are the pubs shut on a Sunday in NI.
One night walking back with some mates from a session, I stepped off the road and onto the verge for a wee and the next thing I heard was a broad English voice going "you dirty Irish B*****d!", there was a group of soldiers hiding in the field and I'd wee'd on one of them. Luckily the rest of the soldiers saw the funny side and we were told to clear off.

Just waterin' me own land, lads.... just waterin' me own land.

That is hilarious!

Don Alfonso wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Mind you, my experience is that you Northerners would argue about 2 flies going up a wall and need us southerners to keep the peace between you

Thats an outrageous allegation! You'll not find a more accommodating and agreeable bunch of people in Europe, and I will tell anyone who thinks otherwise they're wrong until the cows come home

Shut up, Notch. I'm sick of your nonsense.

On of these days Don... one of these days...

Pot Hale wrote:

Next up -

Luxury. I remember when we used to live in paper bag at side of border near a mountain in the middle of a terrorist training camp with bullets flying over our heads at 6 in the morning as we struggled to put on our hiking boots whilst stuffing our maps and Silva compasses into our rucksacks.  

Were you funded by any cross border Extreme Sports body with their headquarters in Dublin and their canteen in Belfast?  It sounds like the thing the Hairy Hair-raising Hikers charity club got involved in in the early 70s.  Do you have, or could you get their accounts for the year 1972? I'm not so sure my fiver membership fee was actually put through their books at the time, and was probably used for nefarious extra curricular activities without my knowledge when I was cowering in a ditch in the middle of a two day long firefight between a band of 'volunteers' and the 'Brits'.

Did you know that before the RWC last year, the IRFU nipped down to the bookies to put a ton of money on the team?

No, but please delete that before Phill sees it!!!

It's an accepted business practice apparently to hedge against the possible success of your team and paying out on performances and bonuses. Paddy Power provides a service along with others in the market.

Pot Hale wrote:It's an accepted business practice apparently to hedge against the possible success of your team and paying out on performances and bonuses.  Paddy Power provides a service along with others in the market.  

Yes I've heard that before. Whats interesting to me is that sporting Unions can do it but individual players can not. For instance if I was a professional footballer (haha) I might decide to lay money on my team getting beaten. Not because I'm corrupt or involved in match fixing, but because if my team wins my contract stipulates I will get a win bonus but if my team loses I will win money on my bet.

Now professional sportsmen are generally prohibited from betting on events they are involved in as anti-corruption measure. What I don't understand is why sporting bodies can bet on events that involve the teams they administrate?

Union Contribution to the Provinces

The IRFU's contribution to the costs of the Provinces over the last five years was:

• 2012 €22m AR '12
  
• 2013 €22m plus AR '13
  
• 2014 €23.8m - AR '14
  
• 2015 €24m plus - estimate
  
• 2016 €30m - estimate
  

It's likely that these include the costs for central contract players.

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:It's an accepted business practice apparently to hedge against the possible success of your team and paying out on performances and bonuses.  Paddy Power provides a service along with others in the market.  

Yes I've heard that before. Whats interesting to me is that sporting Unions can do it but individual players can not. For instance if I was a professional footballer (haha) I might decide to lay money on my team getting beaten. Not because I'm corrupt or involved in match fixing, but because if my team wins my contract stipulates I will get a win bonus but if my team loses I will win money on my bet.

Now professional sportsmen are generally prohibited from betting on events they are involved in as anti-corruption measure. What I don't understand is why sporting bodies can bet on events that involve the teams they administrate?

Paddy Power have a specialist proving this 'insurance' service. Others use insurance companies to achieve the same thing.

Tom Grace is on the Board of Paddy Power

The Troubles didn't put us off going up North to hillwalk or climb and no one really had any problems as such. Backpacking in the Coleys, we'd leave the car with farming families overnight who were always very helpful. We were once stopped by the UVF in the middle of nowhere which was a bit scary, and the British Army patrols in Newcastle was a bit surreal. The thing that struck me at the time was the silence on the streets. You'd never want to go back to that again.

Sin é wrote:Tom Grace is on the Board of Paddy Power

The Troubles didn't put us off going up North to hillwalk or climb and no one really had any problems as such. Backpacking in the Coleys, we'd leave the car with farming families overnight who were always very helpful. We were once stopped by the UVF in the middle of nowhere which was a bit scary, and the British Army patrols in Newcastle was a bit surreal. The thing that struck me at the time was the silence on the streets. You'd never want to go back to that again.

I'm curious. Are you purposely trying to derail the topic, Sin? You could start a separate one?

Much of Belfast City Centre is still like that at night. The Troubles are over, of course, but during them the city centre was closed off at night- a strict curfew was in force. So many of the bars and so on moved elsewhere because they had no business. Also people were less likely to go outside their immediate area so I think thats why there are a lot of pubs which just serve one small area.

Belfast is really weird because most other city centres in similar cities are at least slightly lively at night but in Belfast the nightlife is all concentrated elsewhere. A lot of people at the University who are students from overseas have mentioned to me that this really weirds them out when they go out at night.

Sorry Pot. Don't mean to talk off topic all over your finances article.

But believe me- I've been a mod on this forum for a while now and trying to get the Irish posters to stay on topic is like herding cats. If we started a thread on the Troubles, it'd probably just get derailed by people talking about IRFU Finances.

I assume a Union can only bet one way? A Union betting against itself?

Hmmm.......................... gives a whole new angle to our often 'shock' performances at world cups, especially that 2007 fiasco............

Was our lads being given the All Black Norovirus?

Notch wrote:Sorry Pot. Don't mean to talk off topic all over your finances article.

But believe me- I've been a mod on this forum for a while now and trying to get the Irish posters to stay on topic is like herding cats. If we started a thread on the Troubles, it'd probably just get derailed by people talking about IRFU Finances.

Yes I know. I moderated a forum for a couple of years. I was a lot more ruthless with the delete button.

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:If someone could translate the accounts to english, I would appreciate it. Google translate doesn't work for accounting.


I heard before that the double entry accounting system was designed to be confusing, to keep the general public bamboozled unless they study it.

Very cynical, Prof.     The Income and Expenditure sections are relatively straightforward to read.  Anything in particular that you couldn't find/work out?

The wording is the problem I have. Having to look up what exactly every word means.


Btw do you (or anyone) know what the story is with the 5 or 10 year ticket sales? That's a real cash bonanza from what I remember.

Pot Hale wrote:

Sin é wrote:Tom Grace is on the Board of Paddy Power

The Troubles didn't put us off going up North to hillwalk or climb and no one really had any problems as such. Backpacking in the Coleys, we'd leave the car with farming families overnight who were always very helpful. We were once stopped by the UVF in the middle of nowhere which was a bit scary, and the British Army patrols in Newcastle was a bit surreal. The thing that struck me at the time was the silence on the streets. You'd never want to go back to that again.

I'm curious. Are you purposely trying to derail the topic, Sin?  You could start a separate one?

No, just finishing off the conversation around how North/South funding works.

Pot Hale wrote:

Sin é wrote:Tom Grace is on the Board of Paddy Power

The Troubles didn't put us off going up North to hillwalk or climb and no one really had any problems as such. Backpacking in the Coleys, we'd leave the car with farming families overnight who were always very helpful. We were once stopped by the UVF in the middle of nowhere which was a bit scary, and the British Army patrols in Newcastle was a bit surreal. The thing that struck me at the time was the silence on the streets. You'd never want to go back to that again.

I'm curious. Are you purposely trying to derail the topic, Sin?  You could start a separate one?

Sorry, Pot, that was more my fault. I will try and stay on topic

Pot Hale wrote:

Notch wrote:Sorry Pot. Don't mean to talk off topic all over your finances article.

But believe me- I've been a mod on this forum for a while now and trying to get the Irish posters to stay on topic is like herding cats. If we started a thread on the Troubles, it'd probably just get derailed by people talking about IRFU Finances.

Yes I know. I moderated a forum for a couple of years.  I was a lot more ruthless with the delete button.

Yeah, when I started being a mod I was like Wayne Barnes. Every little minor transgression was ruthlessly penalised. Now I'm more like Nigel Owens. I let a lot of stuff go unpunished and everyone thinks I'm biased because of it!

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Sin é wrote:Tom Grace is on the Board of Paddy Power

The Troubles didn't put us off going up North to hillwalk or climb and no one really had any problems as such. Backpacking in the Coleys, we'd leave the car with farming families overnight who were always very helpful. We were once stopped by the UVF in the middle of nowhere which was a bit scary, and the British Army patrols in Newcastle was a bit surreal. The thing that struck me at the time was the silence on the streets. You'd never want to go back to that again.

I'm curious. Are you purposely trying to derail the topic, Sin?  You could start a separate one?

No, just finishing off the conversation around how North/South funding works.

Grand.   As the Munster expert on here, have you any thoughts/insight into this commentary from the Annual Report this year?

The Annual Report says the Player and Management fees increased by "over €5m". The increase was due to "the necessity to provide against operational amounts due from the Munster Branch in light of their current financial difficulties. In addition to this the Union has paid an additional unbudgeted amount of €250k to each Province to assist with the difficulties being experienced by all in the player contracting market.

When you look at the accounts, Tom Grace's "over €5m" is in fact, €5.981m.  So it was near €6m. Deduct the unbudgeted €1m (4x€250k) increase for the four provinces and that leaves €5m.  This seems like a lot of money to "provide against" Munster Branch's current financial difficulties.  

Is some of it going to the other provinces as part of their annual budgeted increase and it's just badly worded?  There was media speculation about the provinces receiving €500k each for the coming year.
Is it a "provisional allocation" against Munster not coming up with the next big tranche of loan payment - €4.4m in April 2017 - by paying some or all of Munster's player salary bill for last year?  

What do you think?

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:If someone could translate the accounts to english, I would appreciate it. Google translate doesn't work for accounting.


I heard before that the double entry accounting system was designed to be confusing, to keep the general public bamboozled unless they study it.

Very cynical, Prof.     The Income and Expenditure sections are relatively straightforward to read.  Anything in particular that you couldn't find/work out?

The wording is the problem I have. Having to look up what exactly every word means.


Btw do you (or anyone) know what the story is with the 5 or 10 year ticket sales? That's a real cash bonanza from what I remember.

When you say "what the story is" - what do you want to find out?

In an earlier post, I outlined the Income and Expenditure broad headings.  One of those is called Deferred Ticket Income.  In other words, they got the monies from the 5/10 year ticket sales a few years ago, which was used to repay the IRFU's portion of construction costs of the Aviva.   For accounting purposes, rather than declare all of the income in the year they received it, instead it's spread out so a portion of this income is included each year to reflect the actual pre-sold international ticket sales against the matches held in that year.   It's not 'real' income per se, as it's already been spent - they make that clear in the Annual Report.  The amount is €13m.  

It also includes an amount for deferred payment on the Aviva naming rights.  Shortly after signing contract with Aviva Insurance, this ten-year sponsorship deal was sold off to a investment firm at a discount so the IRFU could get their hands on the money immediately.  This income is also spread evenly over the ten years of the naming rights contract - about €8.5m if I recall correctly.

I looked up the 10 year tickets yesterday. There's 5000 of them up for grabs in 2020. The IRFU fell well short in selling similar tickets (10 and 5 year) in the last few years.

Pot Hale wrote:
Central Contract Players and Durations

June 2017
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster - 33/6mo. in June 2017) 
Donnacha Ryan (Munster - 33/6mo. in June 2017)
Devin Toner (Leinster - 31 in June 2017)
Andrew Trimble (Ulster - 32/8mo. in June 2017)

June 2018
Rob Kearney (Leinster - 32/3mo. in June 2018)
Tommy Bowe (Ulster - 34/4mo. in June 2018)
Rory Best (Ulster - 35/10mo. in June 2018)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster - 28/9mo. in June 2018)
Jared Payne (Ulster - 32/8mo. in June 2018)

Post-World Cup 2019
Sean O'Brien (Leinster - 32/4mo. in June 2019)
Keith Earls (Munster - 31/9mo. in June 2019)
Robbie Henshaw (Connacht/Leinster - 26 in June 2019)
Johnny Sexton (Leinster - 34 in June 2019)
Cian Healy (Leinster - 31/10mo. in June 2019)
Conor Murray (Munster - 30/2mo. in June 2019)

Only Henshaw and POM will be in their 20s when their contracts runs out. We might see a situation where half of those players are dropped from the squad or retired before their contracts run out.

profitius wrote:I looked up the 10 year tickets yesterday. There's 5000 of them up for grabs in 2020. The IRFU fell well short in selling similar tickets (10 and 5 year) in the last few years.

Pot Hale wrote:
Central Contract Players and Durations

June 2017
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster - 33/6mo. in June 2017) 
Donnacha Ryan (Munster - 33/6mo. in June 2017)
Devin Toner (Leinster - 31 in June 2017)
Andrew Trimble (Ulster - 32/8mo. in June 2017)

June 2018
Rob Kearney (Leinster - 32/3mo. in June 2018)
Tommy Bowe (Ulster - 34/4mo. in June 2018)
Rory Best (Ulster - 35/10mo. in June 2018)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster - 28/9mo. in June 2018)
Jared Payne (Ulster - 32/8mo. in June 2018)

Post-World Cup 2019
Sean O'Brien (Leinster - 32/4mo. in June 2019)
Keith Earls (Munster - 31/9mo. in June 2019)
Robbie Henshaw (Connacht/Leinster - 26 in June 2019)
Johnny Sexton (Leinster - 34 in June 2019)
Cian Healy (Leinster - 31/10mo. in June 2019)
Conor Murray (Munster - 30/2mo. in June 2019)

Only Henshaw and POM will be in their 20s when their contracts runs out. We might see a situation where half of those players are dropped from the squad or retired before their contracts run out.

Yeah agreed on the central contract crop. The four next year are interesting. Are any of them likely to be used in RWC 2019? Possibly Toner. If not selected, might someone like Heaslip head offshore to U.K. or France if an offer was made?

McGrath and Furlong will likely be added. I'd like to see some of the back three in Connacht step up. Adeolokun is a good prospect. And O'Halloran as future test 15. Dillane as well. Henderson in Ulster. Stander in Munster. Not sure about Aki as to whether he'll stay but if he dioes and Schmidt wants him then a central contract might be best to lock him in when his club contract ends in June even though he doesn't qualify until Autumn.

Pot Hale wrote:
Yeah agreed on the central contract crop. The four next year are interesting. Are any of them likely to be used in RWC 2019?  Possibly Toner.  If not selected, might someone like Heaslip head offshore to U.K. or France if an offer was made?

McGrath and Furlong will likely be added.  I'd like to see some of the back three in Connacht step up. Adeolokun is a good prospect. And O'Halloran as future test 15. Dillane as well. Henderson in Ulster. Stander in Munster.  Not sure about Aki as to whether he'll stay but if he dioes and Schmidt wants him then a central contract might be best to lock him in when his club contract ends in June even though he doesn't qualify until Autumn.

Henderson is signed with Ulster until 2018, I wonder if he'll be upgraded before then? I think Geoff had mentioned that possibly happening last year when the new contract was signed

Don't think they can give Aki a central contract until hes eligible seem to remember that being the case with Payne and as it seems the IRFU have focused on a core group they might not want 3 centres on contracts

Fair point Marty. The contracts are aimed at those seen as getting a regular starting spot. So Payne likely gone from test team starters by 2018. Hopefully O'Halloran, Zebo, and the newer midfield choices make that happen sooner - there's enough of them.

Pot Hale wrote:
Grand.   As the Munster expert on here, have you any thoughts/insight into this commentary from the Annual Report this year?

As far as I'm concerned, Munster own no one anything. Its about time the IRFU stepped up to the plate and help Munster out.

Interesting article here.


Brendan Fanning: Hamilton decision to reverse leaves IRFU struggling with the pace of change
The union's PGB have a pretty big gap to fill less than two seasons after they started
Brendan Fanning Twitter

Published
16/10/2016 | 02:30


IRFU chief executive Philip Browne: “No organisation can stand still in terms of its governance, which has to be under constant review.

On the morning of the Leinster versus Munster game in Dublin last weekend, a quorum of IRFU committee men met with what they call 'a one-item agenda'. Between those who were present and those who rang in, there was unanimity that the IRFU's Professional Game Board (PGB) would, on an interim basis at least, be headed by the union's immediate past president, Martin O'Sullivan.

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Two nights previously, those same committee members had been sent a memo telling them that then PGB chairman, Gordon Hamilton, was stepping down, less than two seasons after he had stepped up.

This doesn't look very good. The long-winded note from Declan Madden, chairman of the union's management committee, said that Hamilton had to withdraw because of time commitments.

It is unclear if the former Ireland flanker, whose try in the World Cup semi-final against Australia in 1991 is part of Irish rugby folklore, underestimated the time commitment in the first place. Or if he buried himself so deep in the consultative process that he was struggling to come up for air. Or, indeed, if the grind of dealing on a regular basis with sectional interests - while running a successful shipping business - was so wearing that he had had enough.

Whatever it was, the upshot leaves the IRFU with two seismic events in close proximity: first, the shafting from the presidential merry-go-round of Finbarr Crowley in 2015; and second, Hamilton's reverse.

The common denominator is change. Crowley, while chairman of the management committee, had managed to deviate the septa of a raft of past presidents on his crusade to relocate power in the IRFU to a tight group. The way he was dispatched at the IRFU AGM in August last year was clinical.

Afterwards, a clearly unhappy chief executive Philip Browne said: "No organisation can stand still in terms of its governance, which has to be under constant review.

"Any organisation that thinks it can stand still on that perspective will go backwards. We have to have a governance that is fit for purpose, that not only allows us to deliver the game at grassroots level but also allows us to run the business end of the game at professional level.

"We've been striving to try and do that over the years, with success, or lack of success, depending on your perspective. Those are the facts."

The Hamilton development has none of the intrigue surrounding Crowley's demise, but coming just over a year later it calls into question the union's capacity to modernise effectively.

Hamilton was fast-tracked into the position of PGB chairman in January 2015, having arrived at the union only a year earlier. The establishment of the PGB itself was one of the twin peaks in the IRFU's 'Plan Ireland: a template for streamlining the union into a body fit for purpose'.
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The other peak was the creation of the new post of performance director, which was filled by Australian David Nucifora. The impetus for Plan Ireland got its turbo boost in Waikato in June 2012, when the All Blacks put 60 points on Ireland.

Hamilton (then 51) was seen as the new guard - a successful businessman who clearly had a rugby background, but was not a career committee man with ambitions of wearing the blazer. He had experience of the professional scene in Ulster, where he had chaired their provincial management committee, and stepping up to the new IRFU PGB was a logical progression in a new era.

When contacted last week, Hamilton would not comment beyond referring us to Madden's memo. However, a source close to him maintains that he had become frustrated with the pace of change, or rather the resistance to it. He would have been at the sharp end of carrying Nucifora's message to the provinces.

Nowhere would this have been more acute than in the schools game, one of the most powerful and self-obsessed lobbies in Irish rugby. Nucifora's vision for this area is less concerned with the importance of the provincial cup competitions and more about getting players earlier into the elite development system. It hasn't gone down well.

"It's more of a problem in Ulster and Leinster, who see themselves as all-important," a senior IRFU source, who didn't wish to be named, said last week.

"Munster are more bothered about getting more schools playing the game and Connacht will just play along. Ulster and Leinster are the problems."

It's likely that the degree of unrest north of the border over the Ruan Pienaar affair - Nucifora is the devil incarnate up there for refusing to extend the South African's contract beyond this season - would have added to the grief at Hamilton's door. It is possible too that, as one of his union colleagues put it to us: "He might have spent too much time listening and not enough time doing."

Hamilton's successor, O'Sullivan, would have done his fair share of listening as well between his time on the Munster and IRFU committees.

At 62 he is hardly in his dotage, but clearly is from a different side of the house to Hamilton. O'Sullivan was a popular president last year, but finds himself now in an altogether more confrontational role.

The next IRFU committee meeting is in a fortnight, when the PGB again will be top of the agenda. It remains to be seen who else, if anyone, has declared an interest by then. Or if they have any ideas on how to nudge this wagon train forward.

Sunday Indo Sport

So anyway, as I was saying....

The breakout of the IRFU spend on the provincial game broadly looked like this in 2018/19:

Contract Professional Player and Management Costs €40,581,564 - Up  €3,397,003
Consisting of:
National Management costs and player fees/bonuses - € 6,700,000 (estimate based on previous years)
Gross Provincial Contribution - €33,881,564

Less ERC and PRO12 Income - €13,378,009
Net Provincial Contribution - €20,503,555

IRFU funding for Provincial Academies € 3,184,544

Pot Hale wrote:So anyway, as I was saying....

The breakout of the IRFU spend on the provincial game broadly looked like this in 2018/19:

Contract Professional Player and Management Costs €40,581,564 - Up  €3,397,003
Consisting of:
National Management costs and player fees/bonuses - € 6,700,000 (estimate based on previous years)
Gross Provincial Contribution - €33,881,564

Less ERC and PRO12 Income - €13,378,009
Net Provincial Contribution - €20,503,555

IRFU funding for Provincial Academies € 3,184,544

So about the same as the WRU

Brendan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So anyway, as I was saying....

The breakout of the IRFU spend on the provincial game broadly looked like this in 2018/19:

Contract Professional Player and Management Costs €40,581,564 - Up  €3,397,003
Consisting of:
National Management costs and player fees/bonuses - € 6,700,000 (estimate based on previous years)
Gross Provincial Contribution - €33,881,564

Less ERC and PRO12 Income - €13,378,009
Net Provincial Contribution - €20,503,555

IRFU funding for Provincial Academies € 3,184,544

So about the same as the WRU

Possibly although the Welsh clubs run their own academies and pay their costs. Don't know what the regions spend on their academies.

IRFU should be publishing their Annual Report for 19/20 soon so it'll be interesting to see where their figures went last season.

Brendan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So anyway, as I was saying....

The breakout of the IRFU spend on the provincial game broadly looked like this in 2018/19:

Contract Professional Player and Management Costs €40,581,564 - Up  €3,397,003
Consisting of:
National Management costs and player fees/bonuses - € 6,700,000 (estimate based on previous years)
Gross Provincial Contribution - €33,881,564

Less ERC and PRO12 Income - €13,378,009
Net Provincial Contribution - €20,503,555

IRFU funding for Provincial Academies € 3,184,544

So about the same as the WRU

Only if you make estimates, hide costs and ignore others.

In 2010/11 season, the figures looked like this:

Contract Professional Player and Management Costs* €28,458,178 Down 1,887,664
Consisting of:
National Management costs and national player fees/bonuses € 5,658.178

Gross Provincial Contribution* €22,800,000
- Less ERC and PRO12 Income - € 9,324,402
Net Provincial Contribution cost - €13,475,598

Funding of Academies €1,276,019

* "You will have noted from the income and expenditure account that e28.4m was spent on funding the professional game this year. Of this e22.8m relates to the Union’s cost of running the four provincial professional teams. This year we received e9.3m from the participation of the four provinces in the various competitions. This leaves a net cost to the Union of e13.5m which it funds from the gate receipts, broadcasting and commercial revenues generated by the National Team. Any future reduction in international game or provincial competition revenues would necessitate a matching reduction in the level of support provided by the Union across all of its activities including the provincial teams." IRFU Annual Report 2010/11 - Hon. Treasurer's Report

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So anyway, as I was saying....

The breakout of the IRFU spend on the provincial game broadly looked like this in 2018/19:

Contract Professional Player and Management Costs €40,581,564 - Up  €3,397,003
Consisting of:
National Management costs and player fees/bonuses - € 6,700,000 (estimate based on previous years)
Gross Provincial Contribution - €33,881,564

Less ERC and PRO12 Income - €13,378,009
Net Provincial Contribution - €20,503,555

IRFU funding for Provincial Academies € 3,184,544

So about the same as the WRU

Only if you make estimates, hide costs and ignore others.

How does the IRFU international costs compare to team Wales. Easy to say they are bidding cost but what costs are they hiding. When overheads are split between departments they are often estimates.

Tell us Team England and Wales costs. If it's higher then we know they over estimated. If lower you'll need to justify your disbelief and how team Ireland can run the national team at a lower cost.

Brendan wrote:

How does the IRFU international costs compare to team Wales

I haven't worked that out. It's a good question.

I'll wait for the IRFU 19/20 report to come out before working it out

Remembering, of course, that Brown noted the IRFU are burning €5m a month 'mostly on the costs of the pro game' at a time when the national team weren't playing

Seems about right.  60m a year on all associated costs would seem about right leaving 30m for the other IRFU stuff a year.

The "mostly" part could mean 80% no one knows. Rent still needs to be paid for the none IRFU stadia, players, coaches, medical, refs, etc still need to be paid.  Plenty costs just in being covid safe.  Medical insurance for all the people involved wouldn't be cheap either as Health Insurance can only offer 10% discount on the cost to business. (That alone could be €1.5m a year easily) No NHS free rides here.

One area where I feel the IRFU (rightly) spend more money is in the management costs of the provinces compared to the other Pro14 teams.  Looking at the coaches at Leinster and Munster outside the head guy are some expensive people.  Even the IRFU have people attached to them such as David N who wouldn't be cheap.

"The professional game accounted for more than half of the Union’s expenditure and when combined with elite player development and referee costs, 68% of expenditure is for the direct benefit of the professional game. Of the remaining 32%, the domestic game accounts for 13% with the remainder made up of marketing, communications, administration and depreciation."  IRFU Annual Report 2018/19.

Updated breakdown of IRFU Expenditure for 2018/19