South Africa in Australia 2016

First topic message reminder :

Quite a bit of test cricket around. New Zealand in India and England in Bangladesh are done, West Indies is starting to look like a test side towards the end of their series against Pakistan. England in India is about to kick off. And along side that series, is the South Africa in Australia series.
First test to start at the WACA tomorrow. South Africa usually are at their best when traveling though they were utterly thrashed by India last year, and they don't seem to have completely recovered from that. However, the Australian chasllenge should see them refreshed and ready to go, particularly after inflicting a home ODI whitewash on the Australians in a 5 match series recently. Australia on the other hand, remain as formidable at home as ever. Their home record is consistently challenged in recent times by the South Africans and Steven Smith's side would want to set the record right.
All in all, a good series on the cards.

alfie wrote:390 ahead with four wickets (actually three) ...I'd sooner SA position.

Yes the WACA allows large 4th innings totals ...but this chase may well be 450 or close to.  Road or not , that's tough. And , Warner and Smith apart , who in the Australian order can be relied upon ?

Was about to say to msp that the pitch may be batter friendly - but a lineup where numbers 6/7 barely average over 20 cannot Ben trusted to get 300, let alone 400+

SA are a bowler down, but at least have Elgar and Duminy as good part-time options. OK they're very light on seamers, but like Olly and Alfie I just don't think Aus batsmen are good enough to score that big.

Yep, I might nitpick with Olly saying South Africa are in complete control given they're a key bowler down but I still think it'll be much harder for Australia to knock off 400+ in the fourth innings than for the visitors to take 10 wickets.

Does anyone else think they should allow injured players to be subbed in game?

Just seems a little ridiculous to me that SA who've dominated this game might miss out because a key player got injured

Obviously would need to be regulated properly (so has to be like for like sub)

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Does anyone else think they should allow injured players to be subbed in game?

Just seems a little ridiculous to me that SA who've dominated this game might miss out because a key player got injured

Obviously would need to be regulated properly (so has to be like for like sub)

No.

Injuries are part of the game as is how you respond to them.

I think as well it would encourage teams to take a chance on a not fully fit player (particularly a bowler) if the safety net provided by a sub was there. Same as regards going into a match with only four front line bowlers - doing so is knowingly accepting a risk.

Alfie, on Nevill, I refered to "They", have come across a number of Australian comments suggesting that Nevill is someone who bats higher up the order in domestic cricket and his style is more suited to batting up the order and that he can do the job at 6 better than at 7. His FC numbers aren't that bad, and he does have a solid temperament. So if putting him up the order helps, then they should give it a shot.
So what about Faulkner's injury? How major? How long is he likely to be out?

The use of subs years ago in ODI's was the worst trial i've seen in the sport, it was dreadful as would allowing injury subs now for the reasons GB has highlighted.

How would you define a like for like sub anyway and how many would you have to have waiting in the wings, i'd say about 6/7.

Opening batsmen
Middle Order batsmen
All-Rounder
Wicket Keeper
Spinner
Frontline seamer
First change seamer

When we say chasing over 400 is tough in any conditions I do agree. But as I did say, the track is flat, and Australia do have Warner and Smith. And if another batsman comes off, 400 won't be out of reach. So South Africa would hope de Kock and Philander would manage to extend their partnership a bit more, get them close to a lead of 450.......
We should not forget that the bowler South Africa lost not any other bowler, its Dale Steyn. Also it should not be forgotten that Keshav Maharaj, their left-arm spinner, is playing his debut test match. Even young Kagiso Rabada, despite his tallents and success, is quite inexperienced at this level. Duminy and Elgar are unlikely to get any help from the conditions.
So if Australia manage to get the next 3 wickets for say around 25-30 runs, think they would be in with a chance at least.......

An interesting debate I think Olly.

I'm not sure I agree with guildford that injuries are a part of the game and we should accept them. For me, that argument could equally have been (and was) made before subs were introduced in other team sports such as rugby and football. Nowadays they are of course accepted by all. Now you could argue that because cricket is what one might call an "individual" team sport (one bowler bowling to one batsman at any given time, albeit obviously there are other actors), and thus the loss of a single individual to injury effects a team less than in football or rugby.

I have more sympathy with guildford's second point, but my main concern would be as flagged by Olly, the potential for exploiting the rule. OK you could say that a team designates its players as (roughly): opening batsmen, top-order batsmen, middle-order batsmen, seam-bowling all-rounder, spinning all-rounder, wicketkeeper, spinner, seamer. But because of the nature of cricket (specifically, successive innings), it's easy to see how this rule could be abused. For instance:
- England would see both Stokes and Woakes as seam-bowling all-rounders, but Stokes is the better batsman. Would they be allowed to bring Stokes in for Woakes for a fourth innings chase?
- more generally, if coming towards the end of a third innings, a seamer has just finished a long spell (unlikely to bowl again in that innings), you could swap him for a fresh seamer who also happens to be a better batsman.
- in a short fourth innings run chase, you could swap your seamers after bowling them into the ground.
- swap keepers by either bringing in a better batsman when chasing or a better keeper when defending.
etc.

I just don't see how a "like-for-like" principle could be enforced in a consistent manner, and as guildford points out to allow such changes would take away one of the (more me) more interesting aspects of cricket, which is how to achieve a proper balance from your team of XI players, e.g. balancing the advantages of playing 5 bowlers with the need for strengthening the batting, the better keeper vs better batsman, etc.

While the idea of subs in principle is not a bad one, the particular nature of cricket as a game, I feel would make it very difficult to implement

MfC - although rugby isn't one of my main sports, it is something I watch on tv at international level from time to time. For me, too many subs are allowed now which lessens an important aspect and appreciation of that game; I'm particularly referring to the strength and determination of the scrum as - however, bloodied, bruised and mud covered - they as a group and individually gave it everything from first minute to last. It just doesn't seem quite right for someone new to suddenly appear there in the 75th minute in a spotlessly clean kit!

Don't interpret this as me wanting to go back the days of goalkeepers with broken necks playing a full FA Cup Final. As ever, there needs to be a sensible balance where it can work. The balance imo has gone too far the other way in some sports and consequently is now wrong in rugby and probably in football too. I just don't consider that the concept would work in cricket and, all things considered, feel it would be worse for that game if it was attempted.

SA has to bat one more session...get the lead upto 500...and then they are safe
with pitch having eased and only 2 seamers and a debutatnt spinner.....I think 500 is the right size cushion needed by SA on this pitch

msp83 wrote:Faulkner averages nearly 32 with the bat and 24 with the ball at First Class level. Hardly ludicrous numbers I would say! And he has played most of his cricket in rather demanding FC environments. Has 180 wickets from 57 matches, so clearly a frontline bowling option.
He's not the next Jacques Kallis or Sobers. But he can do a job, and a much better job at that, in comparison to the other options the Australians have tried out in recent times, Marsh, Henriques, and Maxwell....... Faulkner is any day better than any of them in my book, clearly with the ball, and I would say with the bat too.

Thats the same as Marsh (if you took out Marsh's Test numbers, his domestic FC numbers would look similar with the bat). So how exactly is he an improvement with the bat? Sure, he has the better bowling numbers but Marsh's bowling hasn't really been a problem. Its more than adequate for a 5th bowler and no, Faulkner isn't going to run through Test sides despite those stats. What weapons does he have as a bowler that will threaten Test batsmen? Most of his wickets in ODIs have come through slower balls and slogs at the death. Not exactly wicket taking options in Tests! He doesn't swing the ball, nor does he have pace or a great bouncer. As for those FC numbers, have you checked Joginder Sharma's FC stats? Rishi Dhawan? Mark Davies? The examples are countless. I don't see how anyone who has watched Faulkner bowl in ODIs thinks that he can get batsmen out on defence. No, most of his wickets come through slogs. Anyways, even if I agree that he is a slightly better bowler than Marsh (I don't) how exactly is he gonna be an improvement to the team with the bat (which is Marsh's main area of concern). His FC numbers are no better, he doesn't have much of a technique and as far as him being a "fighter" in ODIs is concerned, the last time he made a decent score in ODIs was nearly 2 years back in the pre-World Cup tri series final (involving The Big 3). Since then, he has crossed 30 once and has been dismissed in single digits on multiple occasions. He hasn't been pulling up trees with the bat even domestically. So what exactly is the difference he'll make to the team especially when your suggestion is to move Nevill, a guy who averages less than Mitch Marsh with the bat in Tests to move up the order!!!! Just a case of a player becoming better in his absence and a change for the sake of it. If Marsh is to be replaced, it should be with a specialist batsman or a specialist bowler who definitely strengthen a particular aspect of the team. Not another bits and pieces cricketer with slightly better numbers.

First hour of day four brings nothing but more frustration for Australia : more dropped chances and overturned decisions ; as SA take the already improbable target further into the realms of record setting...

The one good aspect for the home team is that batting still looks pretty easy on this pitch. And with a man down , SA face some serious labour to take ten wickets.
But there will be some tired batsmen taking guard later.

Lunch and the lead is 506 .Not sure Australia have the patience to bat five sessions for a draw.

Bat another few minutes after ? Suspect they will.

Warner beginning much like he did in the first innings. Already moved on to 23 in a partnership of 30 so far.

As for James Faulkner, he has been a frontline bowling option for Tasmania. The quality difference between the FC competitions in India and Australia is considerable, so comparison between the numbers of say someone like Joginder Sharma and Faulkner really doesn't give a clear idea......
As for batting, between Marsh and Faulkner, I would say the latter has a better defensive technique. Marsh has made whatever runs he made when he just went after the bowling....... His defensive game is non existent and his attacking game is not that good.

South Africa already missing Steyn big time, only into the 11th over of the innings.
Duminy on as first change. Warner took the attack to Rabada at the top....... This is why they needed over 500 to put them in safety.......
Not really a good track for test cricket though. Rather lifeless even on day 4. Whatever life exists on this track, would be there only for perhaps first 4 sessions of the game.......

An absolutely brilliant bit of fielding from Temba Bavuma opens up the gates for South Africa. Missed it live as I had to go away for a bit, but truly sensational! Warner never saw that coming, never at all! And then Rabada got Marsh in the same over, after the openers had put on 52 in quick time.
No aggression from Smith or Kawaja now, trying to get in and occupy the crease.
Australia 66-2.
Faf needs to be smart and careful here, he needs to keep Maharaj going from one end, and give Philander and Rabada shorter spells, with a few overs in between for Duminy and even Elgar.......

Now Khawaja takes on Maharaj, first a boundary, and then a clean hit down the ground for 6 in the same over, charging down the pitch and striking it clean. Would be interesting to see how the debutant responds. Good to see him giving the ball lots of air in the next 2 deliveries....... And interesting to see whether Khawaja would continue with the same approach......
Also interesting to see who someone like Khawaja, who was a sitting duck on a lively spinning track in Sri Lanka, have now become daring to charge the spinner and loft him down the ground, on an absolute road! These Australian batsmen, total FTBs!

So Australia goe to tea at 84-2. Another 29 overs remaining in the day. If Australia manage to close at say 180-2, perhaps they would have a good chance of drawing this one, and even putting the fear of god into the South African minds in the final session perhaps?

Could be 200 by the close. But that would still leave a lot of work for tomorrow.

This pair really need to see the day out ; once they're separated , SA would feel they are just one wicket from the tail...

Now that Khawaja and Smith are in, unless either of them do something really stupid, or someone produces a Bavuma moment in the field, Australia would go back in 2 down
What an atrocious stupid track!

Why is it that du Plessis is not giving Elgar a bowl? Steven Cook is very pedestrian and absolutely ineffective

Rabada bowling in the 130s. His usual average speed is in the 140s consistently. Surely conserving himself....... He just needs to produce something inspired, as breaking this partnership would be key to getting into the fragile lower middle order and lower order......

msp83 wrote:As for James Faulkner, he has been a frontline bowling option for Tasmania. 

Faulkner averages  38 with the bat in ODis
and 24 with the ball in FC cricket
bowls in the range of 128-136kph....is indeed a genuine first choice seamer and a bowling allrounder

and can extract something from flat pitches also by clever variations of pace and  cutters.......and is a fighter to the end
In his only test he had 6 wickets to his name

Think South Africa's chance for the day has come and gone, Rabada again, producing the edge, but Hashim Amla dropped the offering from Khawaja. Dificult chance, de Kock should have gone for it perhaps. But with no Steyn and on this road, it should have been taken.

Rabada gets Smith.

Probably the beginning of the end.

msp83 wrote:Think South Africa's chance for the day has come and gone, Rabada again, producing the edge, but Hashim Amla dropped the offering from Khawaja. Dificult chance, de Kock should have gone for it perhaps. But with no Steyn and on this road, it should have been taken.

The keeper should certainly have gone for it. Difficult for Amla...who hasn't had a great match !

People keep calling this a road ; but 31 wickets have fallen on it so far ...and there are enough balls doing a bit now to suggest 7 more are going to do so by the finish. I've seen a lot worse.

Splendid spell this , from Rabada. Very nearly pinned Voges then.

SA won't want to drain him tonight , but if he can grab another

...and he does !

Voges edged and gone...

Four down . This is effectively over and the only detail remaining is how long it will take to finish.

I'm saying shortly after lunch tomorrow.

well only one bowler for SA is taking wickets...that should be the only concern ....but not a small one.....in SA's consideration of marching to a win

Saffers should wrap this up tomorrow fairly simply - the pitch isn't a minefield but there's something in it if you bowl well

Apart from perhaps Khawaja you wouldn't really expect any of the remaining batsmen to last too long . Marsh may be playing for his place so perhaps he will prove hard to shift , and Nevill is unlikely to throw his wicket away...but I would imagine SA can chisel them out sooner or later.
They obviously won't want to go too deep into the day as the two remaining pace men are going to be needed again in a few short days in Hobart. If the two batsmen in at present can hold them out until , say , lunch , then they will give SA some concerns - but batting all day is a pretty tough proposition.
Think Maharaj may have a bit more influence today.

the mountain of runs and the amount of time left meant that there was no fear of defeat and plenty of overs...so even bits and pieces bowlers could put it there and wickets would come with time......

Rabada plucked out the top order and is a "Lambi Race ke Ghoda" i.e a horse that will win you many a races.....and hence groomed to be a spearhead and not overused as a stock bowler.

SA cannot go into a test henceforth with Steyn as one of 4 bowlers......there has to be a proper 5th bowler.....else they would have struggled  to defend a respectable 350 today

Aus should kick themselves here. They had a perfect platform at the start of their first innings, and Steyns injury gave them a huge opportunity even when they'd screwed that up. But helping SA to score such an enormous total in their second innings with some flat bowling and low key fielding really they deserve all the stick they will get for this. Getting 361 in the second innings shows they have a bit about them, and what might've been if they hadn't left themselves such a monstrous target to chase.

SA must be a bit concerned about the load Rabada has had to shoulder in this test...in theory he should be getting short bursts to keep him fresh and delivering at full pace. 51 overs is a lot for a fast bowler, and with Steyn out the reliance on him wont go away. The last thing theyd want is for him to break down as well.

Is Abbot next in line for Steyns place?

Morne Morkel was reportedly 95% fit recovering from the injury before T1...so he should be the first in line to replace Steyn....and Abbot next.

but it could be too risky to get a just recovered fast bowler as one of the 4 bowlers in the 11 

I would put both abbot and Morkel in the 11....
how to fit both?
maybe leave out Maharaj........Elgar, Dumminy can bowl spin if needed

and as recommended and demanded .....SA sends all rounder dwayne Pretorius to replace Steyn......FC batting average of 44 and bowling average of 22 over 36 games is statistically makes a decent FC allrounder.

only question in my mind......why with his age nearing 28 has he played merely 36 FC games

Nice to have one of those in cupboard! First class avergaes always a bit dubious (his ODI record is poor) but thats exactly the kind of player they need to balance the side. Difficult to know where comes in though, assuming its as a fifth bowler its either Duminy or Bavuma he'd be replacing ...neither of which were exactly crying out to be dropped based on the last test. The othe roption is to drop the spinner and deepen the batting whislt expanding their fast bowling options if its that kind of pitch.

Aus could do with upscaling Marsh to something that can bat and bowl a touch more effectively too. Thier tail did wag a bit in the second innings against a flagging attack but its amongst the longest of all the test teams.

Agree totally with KPF, SA just can't go in with 4 bowlers into a test match, when one of them being Dale Steyn. In fact they have to manage Rabada who is the biggest asset they have for many a years and can't overbowl him. Big Vern also have had his more than fair share of injuries. Morkel, who has had a better fitness record in comparison to Steyn or Philander, is also picking up a few injuries now. If they have to make the best of their fast bowling tallents, South Africa need an all-rounder. But how to find the right team balance? Remember AB de Villiers is not part of this batting lineup...... So ones all are fit and available, how would they go about?
Bavuma
Elgar
Amla
AB
Duminy/du plessis
QdK
Morris?
Philander
Maharaj
Rabada
Steyn.
Faf has got better overall numbers, but has been inconsistent of late. Duminy has had terrible numbers but has added a bit of consistency to his batting of late and can bowl. And then there are the transformation targets, that might give Duminy an edge.
Bavuma has showed he has the temperament to open. But he has seemed more at home in the middle order. Quinton de Kock can be a Warner type opener. But keeping wickets and opening might be too much of a demand upon him on a regular basis. Will Hashim Amla take up the challenge and open? He does that in limited overs, and bats 3 in tests.......

Australia fought that out pretty well today- but the final result was all but inevitable..even with the reduced attack available to SA.
Nevill did himself no harm with a fighting innings ; and if Khawaja still has to prove himself on pitches that do a bit , at least his 97 ensures he will get the chance - perhaps in the Pink Ball Test ?

Bowlers on both sides are going to be weary. Rabada ( who certainly earned his MotM ) has youth on his side ; Starc and Siddle came in a bit underdone ...it now remains to be seen whether they are now overcooked
SA have to replace Steyn : Morkel or Abbot ? And I'd imagine Australia will use Mennie. While S Marsh is out with an injury already. They have called up an extra batsman : does that spell trouble for M Marsh ?

A terrific effort by SA to win this one. Bit of a pity what could be a decisive second match is in the relative backwater of Hobart : SA really deserve Melbourne or Sydney ...but the calendar is unforgiving.
Let us hope the weather stays fair...

Surely SA should go for four quicks (Philander, Abbott, Morkel and Rabada) and Elgar/Duminy can chip in with spin? That would make by far the most sense imo

I wouldn't be in a rush to drop The Maharaja. Even though he only he picked up one second innings wicket, I thought he did a pretty decent job on debut. A threefer first dig whilst today he put in a lot of leg work keeping it fairly tight and enabling Rabida, just about, and Philander to keep going.

If he had gone for, say, 50 or 60 in his first 10 overs, the two surviving seamers would have had to bowl even more earlier and would have become spent that much sooner. That may still not have enabled Australia to escape with a draw but it would probably have increased anxiety levels for the visitors.

Duminy did ok today - and, yes, Elgar can fill in a bit too (surprised he didn't bowl at all in Steyn's absence) - but you really need the option of a Test class spinner* to bowl at Test class batsmen.

* And before the jokes about England come - or the nearest you have to one!

Think they should very much invest in Keshav Maharaj. Looked the best of the lot of spinners who have come through for them in recent. Only the debut test, but he seems to have good control and the ability to pick up wickets. Doesn't seem to turn it big, but doesn't seem the type who would give away easy runs, and is smart enough so that he can make the best of helpful conditions. And his ability to hold the batt is an added incentive.

Admittedly I haven't exactly watched every ball of this test...but from what I've seen of Maharaj, and what I know of Duminy I don't think Maharaj's bowling is good enough to justify his place over Duminy's batting (which is essentially the Q here for me. Cos Duminy can hold up an end for 5 overs to give the seamers a break).

If they do go five bowlers, could Philander bat 7, Maharaj 8 and Abbott 9? Seems a long tail to me. Not a fan of bringing in someone outside the original squad and slotting them into the team straight away....

I would not be leaving Maharaj out for Hobart - unless the pitch looks like a raging greentop ; which I rather doubt.

Duminy is an OK "extra" bowler ; but if they are in the field for a long time I think a full time spinner is a requirement.  And as msp says , he isn't useless with the bat.
Three pace men ought to be sufficient. If you don't trust Morkel's fitness - pick Abbott.

The fact that they have brought an allrounder into the squad suggests they may well be planning to - eventually - revert to a five bowler attack. But as they no longer have a Kallis I think that plan is both risky and unlikely to happen straight away.
Allrounders only help if they are very good...ask Australia and Mitchell Marsh...

I am a little disappointed to see a number of ex-players and commentators here grumbling about the drs decision to out M.Marsh lbw to Rabada.
Granted it looked a little odd in terms of the graphic representation ... but unless there was a peculiar gremlin loose in the computer , the ball tracking (which many of the same critics sometimes suggest should be made the absolute arbiter at the expense of the "umpire's call" option) showed that the delivery was hitting the stumps. Rather doubt it had taken on a SA bias for the day
Thought it was only Indian critics who didn't trust the technology ...

Presumably people are grumbling that not enough of the ball was hitting the leg stump? Haven't the guidelines on umpire's call been changed on that point recently? Might have been what got the commentators confused... Had no problem with it myself, those can always be tricky for the umpire because the batsman's foot is sliding around a fair bit so hard to know exactly where the impact was, but I'm sure if you showed Dar the path of the delivery up to the impact he'd agree that it was hitting the stumps.

Think it was introduced MFC yes

Sounds like your typical Aussie whinging when they lose....

Id be more concerned about the decision to select Mitchel Marsh than the one to give him out.