Warren Gatland, Lions Coach - Discussion Thread

[LondonTiger]

https://www.606v2.com/t63946p1000-warren-gatland-announced-as-lions-coach

Seems Gat may be naming his coaches soon, expected to be:

Borthwick - Forwards
Farrell - Defence
Howley - Attack

[uncle_nigel]

Howley - Attack

Will there be an attack?

[RuggerRadge2611]

Let's face it Howley is a dreadful decision. The very definition of Wales at the moment is blunt, blunt and blunt.

[uncle_nigel]

It's beyond dreadful and I can't quite fathom how the WRU would continue to employ this ice-cream man, never mind the Standard Life Investments' Lions.

[Tattie Scones RRN]

These coaches are only in place because the decent ones turned the positions down.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I think for the Lions it smacks of a bit of jobs for the boyos from Gatland.

I said on the previous thread Toonie would have been a great fit. Look at how Glasgow attack and cut teams to ribbons, Imagine what he could have done with Guys like Murray, Ford, JJ, Williams and Hogg all in the same backline. It could have been beautiful.

I'm gutted he turned the lions down but I'm delighted he's taking his role as Scotland Head Coach seriously and is going to take us to Australia. I can't help but think Scotland's chances of doing well in that tour have improved whilst The Lions Chances of success have diminished with his absence.

The rest of the coaching team looks good though.

[beshocked]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Howley - Attack

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

[TJ]

Townsends whole philosophy of playing is so different to Gatland tho that I really don't think it would have worked.

Townsend gives his players the freedom to attack from anywhere and to play off the cuff. Gatland likes a very structured game.

[uncle_nigel]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Then you have the likes of Tattie's other scourge, AKA Warren Gatland.

Gats wasn't good enough for the role despite his years of his experience, despite him guiding Wasps from last in the premiership to title winners x 3, and also winning the challenge cup, Heineken cup, then winning the Air NZ cup with Waikato, and onto two cleans sweeps of the 6N with Wales, a record-breaking series victory with the Lions in Australia (the first series win in 13 years). Yeah Gatland really wasn't good enough .

[Tattie Scones RRN]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Yeah agreed, bit harsh on Borthwick.

The others though......

[RuggerRadge2611]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Then you have the likes of Tattie's other scourge, AKA Warren Gatland.

Gats wasn't good enough for the role despite his years of his experience, despite him guiding Wasps from last in the premiership to title winners x 3, and also winning the challenge cup, Heineken cup, then winning the Air NZ cup with Waikato, and onto two cleans sweeps of the 6N with Wales, a record-breaking series victory with the Lions in Australia (the first series win in 13 years). Yeah Gatland really wasn't good enough .

To be fair Nige, most Welsh fans I've spoken to in particular my dad all think Gatland has taken the Wales team as far as he can now. His style of play although sometimes effective has now been rumbled by most teams and they tend to choke Robert's channel and stop Wales building momentum.

Certainly I can't see the Lions overpowering NZ. They need to be a bit creative. None of the names in that coaching team fill me with confidence that we'll see a high tempo, quick recycling and loose game that we probably need to beat NZ. Circa Ireland in Chicago, or England at Twickers a few years ago.

[beshocked]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Then you have the likes of Tattie's other scourge, AKA Warren Gatland.

Gats wasn't good enough for the role despite his years of his experience, despite him guiding Wasps from last in the premiership to title winners x 3, and also winning the challenge cup, Heineken cup, then winning the Air NZ cup with Waikato, and onto two cleans sweeps of the 6N with Wales, a record-breaking series victory with the Lions in Australia (the first series win in 13 years). Yeah Gatland really wasn't good enough .

Gatland has an impressive resume but achieved anything with Wales for a while now though. Let's look at this way - if a player struggled for form for 3 years would you keep picking him? No of course not.

Gatland is the same, he's not moved on with the times. Just because someone was good a few years ago doesn't mean they are now.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Then you have the likes of Tattie's other scourge, AKA Warren Gatland.

Gats wasn't good enough for the role despite his years of his experience, despite him guiding Wasps from last in the premiership to title winners x 3, and also winning the challenge cup, Heineken cup, then winning the Air NZ cup with Waikato, and onto two cleans sweeps of the 6N with Wales, a record-breaking series victory with the Lions in Australia (the first series win in 13 years). Yeah Gatland really wasn't good enough .

Gatland has an impressive resume but achieved anything with Wales for a while now though. Let's look at this way - if a player struggled for form for 3 years would you keep picking him? No of course not.

Gatland is the same, he's not moved on with the times. Just because someone was good a few years ago doesn't mean they are now.

Considering Wales keep picking Cuthbert I don't think that logic applies to our Western brethern

[uncle_nigel]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Then you have the likes of Tattie's other scourge, AKA Warren Gatland.

Gats wasn't good enough for the role despite his years of his experience, despite him guiding Wasps from last in the premiership to title winners x 3, and also winning the challenge cup, Heineken cup, then winning the Air NZ cup with Waikato, and onto two cleans sweeps of the 6N with Wales, a record-breaking series victory with the Lions in Australia (the first series win in 13 years). Yeah Gatland really wasn't good enough .

To be fair Nige, most Welsh fans I've spoken to in particular my dad all think Gatland has taken the Wales team as far as he can now. His style of play although sometimes effective has now been rumbled by most teams and they tend to choke Robert's channel and stop Wales building momentum.

Certainly I can't see the Lions overpowering NZ. They need to be a bit creative. None of the names in that coaching team fill me with confidence that we'll see a high tempo, quick recycling and loose game that we probably need to beat NZ. Circa Ireland in Chicago, or England at Twickers a few years ago.

It's a fair comment however I think Gatland just needs new coaches and players for Wales to get better. With regards to this tour he is coaching the Lions and not Wales, which means new players, new expertise and a new challenge. I think that's the sort of thing Gatland thrives on.

I think we do have the players to overpower them but they just need to match that tempo when the ABs inevitably raise it - that is when they're at their best. Ireland have proven it can be done and I'm sure a host of those players with the best from the other 3 nations stand a good chance of winning the series.

[uncle_nigel]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Then you have the likes of Tattie's other scourge, AKA Warren Gatland.

Gats wasn't good enough for the role despite his years of his experience, despite him guiding Wasps from last in the premiership to title winners x 3, and also winning the challenge cup, Heineken cup, then winning the Air NZ cup with Waikato, and onto two cleans sweeps of the 6N with Wales, a record-breaking series victory with the Lions in Australia (the first series win in 13 years). Yeah Gatland really wasn't good enough .

Gatland has an impressive resume but achieved anything with Wales for a while now though. Let's look at this way - if a player struggled for form for 3 years would you keep picking him? No of course not.

Gatland is the same, he's not moved on with the times. Just because someone was good a few years ago doesn't mean they are now.

So what did Eddie Jones do for a few years before his current stint with England? He was Australia coach and won the tri-nations with them back in 2001 and that was it - the ARU terminated his contract in 2005 when it had two years left to run. He was poor at S15 level for the most part and has less silverware than Gatland, far less. Since then I don't recall him doing anything of note apart from get Japan to play like a S15 team - a good achievement but besides that Jones wasn't up to much now was he? He's not such a bad coach right now. It's no different with Gatland. He's made some great achievements before and he's still good. I'm sure he can do it again.

[No 7&1/2]

He worked with SA when they went on their huge run and won the world cup didn't he?

[beshocked]

ruggerradge very true but I am talking about in normal circumstances.


uncle nigel it's different. Jones current value and worth is very high at the moment. Gatland's... pretty low.

Talking about now - not 10 years ago.

Jones managed to cause one of the biggest upsets in the RWC by masterminding a victory of Japan over SA. Also people forget Japan's big win over Samoa. Plus he masterminded a victory over Wales albeit a 2nd string Welsh side.


To be honest Gatland is a bit like Clive, dining off past glory.

no 7 & 1/2 very true.

[Guest]

I think it's a bit wrong to lay everything at Gatland's door here.  Firstly, he didn't select himself for the Lions head coach position.  We need to be blaming the Lions management/organisers for picking Gats, yet I've seen virtually no criticism of them on here.  It's all been along the lines of 'The tour is fecked 'cos of Gats', when it should have been 'The tour is fecked because of those dim wits who picked Gats'.

Secondly, as mentioned above they did try to pick other assistant coaches but was turned down.  It's only becoming 'jobs for the boys' because the other ones said no thanks.  You can't blame Gats for poor back play if only Howley says 'yes'.  Blame Towsend for saying no!  At least Gats recognized that Townsend would have been a good choice.  He went to the coach who we all wanted, so give him some credit there.  It's not like Howley was the first choice.  Can't blame Gats for Toonie giving him the bird, although I'm sure he'll get blamed for that regardless.

[uncle_nigel]

He worked with SA when they went on their huge run and won the world cup didn't he?

Technical advisor during the world cup, not a bad bit of CV addition I guess. Don't get me wrong I think he is a good coach but his career has been erratic to say the least.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Then you have the likes of Tattie's other scourge, AKA Warren Gatland.

Gats wasn't good enough for the role despite his years of his experience, despite him guiding Wasps from last in the premiership to title winners x 3, and also winning the challenge cup, Heineken cup, then winning the Air NZ cup with Waikato, and onto two cleans sweeps of the 6N with Wales, a record-breaking series victory with the Lions in Australia (the first series win in 13 years). Yeah Gatland really wasn't good enough .

To be fair Nige, most Welsh fans I've spoken to in particular my dad all think Gatland has taken the Wales team as far as he can now. His style of play although sometimes effective has now been rumbled by most teams and they tend to choke Robert's channel and stop Wales building momentum.

Certainly I can't see the Lions overpowering NZ. They need to be a bit creative. None of the names in that coaching team fill me with confidence that we'll see a high tempo, quick recycling and loose game that we probably need to beat NZ. Circa Ireland in Chicago, or England at Twickers a few years ago.

It's a fair comment however I think Gatland just needs new coaches and players for Wales to get better. With regards to this tour he is coaching the Lions and not Wales, which means new players, new expertise and a new challenge. I think that's the sort of thing Gatland thrives on.

I think we do have the players to overpower them but they just need to match that tempo when the ABs inevitably raise it - that is when they're at their best. Ireland have proven it can be done and I'm sure a host of those players with the best from the other 3 nations stand a good chance of winning the series.

Surely if Gats wanted new coaches he would have moved the current ones out. The opposite has happened & I can't believe it was just a WRU decision Gats would have called the shots on continuing the contracts of Howley, Edwards & McBryde. If you take credit for the successful times you also have to be accountable for intransigence & relative failure.

[uncle_nigel]

ruggerradge very true but I am talking about in normal circumstances.


uncle nigel it's different. Jones current value and worth is very high at the moment. Gatland's... pretty low.

Talking about now - not 10 years ago.

Jones managed to cause one of the biggest upsets in the RWC by masterminding a victory of Japan over SA. Also people forget Japan's big win over Samoa. Plus he masterminded a victory over Wales albeit a 2nd string Welsh side.


To be honest Gatland is a bit like Clive, dining off past glory.

no 7 & 1/2 very true.

But you're often speaking like Gatland is the worst coach in world rugby and he's far from that. I think he's nearer to the top. I've already said why I think he can do well with the Lions and it's up to you whether or not you agree.

Jones is a good coach, very good right now despite having the easiest job of all coaches in world rugby. Gatland probably has one of the most difficult with Wales given our set-up is a shambles. Jones' erratic past shouldn't be discounted, neither should Gatland's past. Both are great coaches but only one of them wanted to be the Lions coach, and he was a good pick for the role.

[beshocked]

If we comparing current Gatland to other international head coaches I would say he's worse than many like Cotter,Jones,Schmidt,Hansen,Cheika,O Shea and probably even Noves.

No the worst coach in world rugby is currently Coetzee.


If the England job is so easy then why did Lancaster bomb out in the group stages of the RWC?

Being unbeaten in a calendar year isn't easy whoever you are.

Gatland has been in charge of a very experienced Welsh side and struggled badly against the SH sides.

[uncle_nigel]

Tattie I think that's very harsh on Borthwick whose probably one of the forwards coaches with the best record in the last year or so. When you look at his work with Japan and England.

Then you have the likes of Tattie's other scourge, AKA Warren Gatland.

Gats wasn't good enough for the role despite his years of his experience, despite him guiding Wasps from last in the premiership to title winners x 3, and also winning the challenge cup, Heineken cup, then winning the Air NZ cup with Waikato, and onto two cleans sweeps of the 6N with Wales, a record-breaking series victory with the Lions in Australia (the first series win in 13 years). Yeah Gatland really wasn't good enough .

To be fair Nige, most Welsh fans I've spoken to in particular my dad all think Gatland has taken the Wales team as far as he can now. His style of play although sometimes effective has now been rumbled by most teams and they tend to choke Robert's channel and stop Wales building momentum.

Certainly I can't see the Lions overpowering NZ. They need to be a bit creative. None of the names in that coaching team fill me with confidence that we'll see a high tempo, quick recycling and loose game that we probably need to beat NZ. Circa Ireland in Chicago, or England at Twickers a few years ago.

It's a fair comment however I think Gatland just needs new coaches and players for Wales to get better. With regards to this tour he is coaching the Lions and not Wales, which means new players, new expertise and a new challenge. I think that's the sort of thing Gatland thrives on.

I think we do have the players to overpower them but they just need to match that tempo when the ABs inevitably raise it - that is when they're at their best. Ireland have proven it can be done and I'm sure a host of those players with the best from the other 3 nations stand a good chance of winning the series.

Surely if Gats wanted new coaches he would have moved the current ones out. The opposite has happened & I can't believe it was just a WRU decision Gats would have called the shots on continuing the contracts of Howley, Edwards & McBryde. If you take credit for the successful times you also have to be accountable for intransigence & relative failure.

That's all true, he does have a knack for sticking with the same players and coaches. If you put himself in his position though, wouldn't you find it difficult to show the door to a group of guys you spent years working with? (If he can even make that decision by himself). Gats was with Howley and Edwards at Wasps was he not? I think you're right and Gatland can be held partly accountable. The muppet trio are too stupid to leave the role at their own accord so if it was me I would have asked the WRU to fire them behind my back.

[uncle_nigel]

If we comparing current Gatland to other international head coaches I would say he's worse than many like Cotter,Jones,Schmidt,Hansen,Cheika,O Shea and probably even Noves.

No the worst coach in world rugby is currently Coetzee.


If the England job is so easy then why did Lancaster bomb out in the group stages of the RWC?

Being unbeaten in a calendar year isn't easy whoever you are.

Gatland has been in charge of a very experienced Welsh side and struggled badly against the SH sides.

Well Coetzee aside all names on the list are good coaches. Schmidt, Hansen, Cheika and Jones on current form are probably rated as the best in world rugby - it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to suggest Gatland is as good or near enough. Claiming the likes of Cotter, O'Shea and Noves are better is just ridiculous though.

I'm not sure why tbh. Perhaps a few adjustments were needed here and there with regards to the starting team and coaches? Is he a bad motivator? You can credit him with building the current squad though and laying the foundations for Eddie.

I would agree with that, so Eddie should get some credit.

[No 7&1/2]

He worked with SA when they went on their huge run and won the world cup didn't he?

Technical advisor during the world cup, not a bad bit of CV addition I guess. Don't get me wrong I think he is a good coach but his career has been erratic to say the least.

You looked it up a tad late to be taken as an expert on the subject!

[uncle_nigel]

He worked with SA when they went on their huge run and won the world cup didn't he?

Technical advisor during the world cup, not a bad bit of CV addition I guess. Don't get me wrong I think he is a good coach but his career has been erratic to say the least.

You looked it up a tad late to be taken as an expert on the subject!

I looked it up before you commented but didn't think it was really worth a mention. Surely it's the kind of temporary role an aspiring head coach would take rather than a former head coach. That along with his stints in Super rugby and with Australia is why I think he has been erratic. He's consistent now though, to say the least.

[No 7&1/2]

You ignored it which makes you look as if you're taking a point of view inspite of achievements instead of basing it upon achievements. Makes you look foolish.

[uncle_nigel]

You ignored it which makes you look as if you're taking a point of view inspite of achievements instead of basing it upon achievements. Makes you look foolish.

Well I only class it as an achievement when they're a head coach, if that's what you mean? A technical advisor...what do they even do? Like I said, it seems like just a CV addition, rather than an achievement. I don't see what's foolish, unless you class disagreeing with you as being foolish.

[No 7&1/2]

Plenty disagree with me, I class few people as foolish.

[uncle_nigel]

So what was your point then?

[No 7&1/2]

You're being foolish by discounting a period of time when discussing Jones' merits. You didn't choose to leave anything out though; you just didn't know and now won't just admit it and move on.

[No 7&1/2]

Great quote from Gatland in relation to his potential playing squad. 'i'm looking forward to the potenitla that's out there. Some of the names bandied around have been fantastic, I haven't heard of some of them.'

Back to hoping that Wales have a good 6Ns then!

[uncle_nigel]

You're being foolish by discounting a period of time when discussing Jones' merits. You didn't choose to leave anything out though; you just didn't know and now won't just admit it and move on.

Again, I don't see it as foolish - it was just a technical advisor..... I'm not sure how and when I left this out because I didn't really discuss Jones' merits, I just asked if he had been up to much through his career because I don't really remember him doing anything worthy of note prior to 2015; unless of course you go a lot further back, further back than you would have to for Gatty's accolades. You said "He worked with SA when they went on their huge run and won the world cup didn't he?" which I guess was in reply to that. I read about his technical advisor role on the Wikipedia page earlier, before you commented. I've been consistent stating that it wasn't really worthy of note and I still believe that; in addition to that job I left out some of his other former roles in case you didn't know about those? So why you're obsessed with this particular stint I do not know. To suggest that I'm a liar because I didn't say EXACTLY what you wanted to read is what's actually foolish.

[No 7&1/2]

It's ok move on. You don't know what you're on about.

[uncle_nigel]

Great quote from Gatland in relation to his potential playing squad. 'i'm looking forward to the potenitla that's out there. Some of the names bandied around have been fantastic, I haven't heard of some of them.'

Back to hoping that Wales have a good 6Ns then!

I'm pretty sure he didn't say potenitla. He must have been responding to the English media talking about those overhyped premiership players being a bolter.

[No 7&1/2]

Again that's just your bias shining through. Shame really as I thought you were a genuine poster nearer the start.

[uncle_nigel]

It's ok move on. You don't know what you're on about.

The only thing I don't know is what a technical advisor does. Do they wash the kit? I've been consistent in my viewpoint so it's actually you needing to get over it.

[uncle_nigel]

Again that's just your bias shining through. Shame really as I thought you were a genuine poster nearer the start.

Well I can clear that up for you if you tell me what you're responding to exactly? Maybe I am a little biased.

[No 7&1/2]

It's fine. I've put you into the wum/not serious/don't know what you're on about pile.

[uncle_nigel]

It's fine. I've put you into the wum/not serious/don't know what you're on about pile.

Okay you carry on with that attitude towards folk you don't agree with and I'm sure you'll continue to have great discussions on here. Ta-ra.

[No 7&1/2]

Oh I'll still respond calling you foolish don't worry, just done with something you have no idea about.

[uncle_nigel]

You're just like Stuart Barnes.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

If Gats wanted new coaches he would have moved the current ones out. The opposite has happened & I can't believe it was just a WRU decision Gats would have called the shots on continuing the contracts of Howley, Edwards & McBryde. If you take credit for the successful times you also have to be accountable for intransigence & relative failure.

Spot on.

[lostinwales]

Wow this conversation is going places...

[uncle_nigel]

Wow this conversation is going places...

Yep, was having a good discussion with Beshocked until Barnes-wannabe ruined it because he disagreed.

My point in replying to Beshocked was that Jones went a while without doing much worthy of note, such as guiding teams to silverware; that's what I class as worthy of note btw. He also has less to his name that Gatty. That didn't stop Jones from coming into the England job and doing really well. I was trying to get at it's the same with Gatland who is now having a dry spell but remains a good coach. Who's to say he won't have another stint further down the line with somebody other than Wales and do really well? Class is permanent as they say .

[No 7&1/2]

And if you discount everything jones has done, he's done nothing. great debating!

[GunsGermsV2]

Will all the Lions coaches be missing during the six nations or just Gatland?

[beshocked]

uncle nigel both Jones and Gatland can pleased with their coaching careers when they look back. It doesn't change that currently Gatland seems to be past his sell by date and Jones is currently the coach picking up the plaudits.

Now I am not saying that things won't change, of course they can.

I agree Gatland might be able to revitalise his coaching career but I don't think it's going to happen in NZ with the Lions.

We all know what happened last time a coach past his sell by date took the Lions to NZ.....

Though saying that Gatland is not as underwhelming as Howley.

I admire your optimism in Gatland but he needs to convince us he's still got what it takes.

[uncle_nigel]

And if you discount everything jones has done, he's done nothing. great debating!

Nobody has discounted everything Jones has done. Do you honestly believe that being some technical advisor for a brief period should mentioned in the same breath as winning the tri-nations, 6 Nations and a Lions series? I would rate his stint with Japan a lot higher than his temporary advisor role.

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