Eng in India

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LivinginItaly wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway

VTR wrote:That was a great batting unit, allied to a very good bowling attack, I am sure that was the best England team that most on here can remember

The current team is a work in progress, but the all-rounders starting at 4 can't be the long-term solution. I am though hopeful that we are possibly one decent batsman away from being a good side

Was indeed a great side. Basically started to rise to the top when Trott and Swann appeared to complete the jigsaw in 2009 ...and fell apart as those two reached the end in Australia for slightly different reasons...

England have arguably replaced Pietersen , Bell , Collingwood and Prior - not an exact match , but Root , Bairstow , Moeen and Stokes have more or less covered those four ; and Hameed may be the Strauss replacement at last. But Trott and Swann have left holes that haven't been filled .
I don't think they'll find a new Swann. Not in the short term at least - England spinners of his class come along every few decades. But a solid number three might not be too much to want for Christmas ?

LivinginItaly wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

LivinginItaly wrote:It would appear that leach was not considered as a replacement for Ansari due to concerns over his action after routine testing.

LiI - where did you get from please? Not doubting you, just interested,

BBC sport website

Thanks, LiI. I'll have a butcher's. My immediate reaction is that it's odd that he's still ok for the Lions.

VTR wrote:I think you are forgetting, India have only had one innings so far, so chasing the 130 would just mean India batting again!

Not if it was ten to six...

Only useful if it did get close to time ; but I was hoping after the morning session they would score quickly enough to make that an option - it would complicate Kohli's tactical decisions a bit.

Think they are too far adrift now.

Tea at minus 115, six wickets left.

Still a pulse...

alfie wrote:

VTR wrote:That was a great batting unit, allied to a very good bowling attack, I am sure that was the best England team that most on here can remember

The current team is a work in progress, but the all-rounders starting at 4 can't be the long-term solution. I am though hopeful that we are possibly one decent batsman away from being a good side

Was indeed a great side.  Basically started to rise to the top when Trott and Swann appeared to complete the jigsaw in 2009 ...and fell apart as those two reached the end in Australia for slightly different reasons...

England have arguably replaced Pietersen , Bell , Collingwood and Prior - not an exact match , but Root , Bairstow , Moeen and Stokes have more or less covered those four ; and Hameed may be the Strauss replacement at last.  But Trott and Swann  have left holes that haven't been filled .
I don't think they'll find a new Swann.  Not in the short term at least - England spinners of his class come along every few decades.  But a solid number three might not be too much to want for Christmas ?

Moeen and Stokes average in the low 30's. Whilst they both bring more with the ball ets not pretend they are in the same class of batsmen as Collingwood and Bell (low 40's). Even Prior maintained a test average over 40. Relative for his time Collingwood was an absolute standout athletic fielder too.

I agree that Jennings and Hammed look like a good hope of reversing this decline for England, allowing Root to drop down the order. Freeing Cook of the capatincy could bring him back more relaxed and able to perform better. Freeing Bairstow of the gloves could enable him to flourish into a real force as well. That would give us at least a class top 5, and still the bits and pieces runs down the order to 9. Then its just the lack of a proper fast bowler and spinner we have to worry about...

Alfie - was a response to dyrewolfe, who seemed to be thinking England would win if they got to India's score, that's how I read it and I don't blame anyone thinking that as it's been a long tour for us supporters!

As for the match, a bit fraught but that partnership calmed things down. Just 12 overs for the partnership so far, but seems a lot longer, showing that England really should believe they can save the match as two more partnerships of 10 overs each would pretty much do it - surely that isn't exactly a mountain to climb!

Not the session we wanted but sticking with my call on the draw. If we show application and don't lose our heads, I feel taking a further six wickets on this track in the one remaining session will be (just) too much of a stretch for even this India attack.

VTR wrote:I think you are forgetting, India have only had one innings so far, so chasing the 130 would just mean India batting again!

Of course Morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

So it actually makes sense for England to score as slowly as possible...what a bizarre situation!

Well look these two have taken a very positive approach and restored a bit of pride. Theyve at least made Ashwoin look like he could bowl for England anyway.

Id now say the draw is the most likley result, and frankly england would be very dissapointed not to get it. Very much second best and a "losing" draw, but a draw nonethless. 3-0 doesnt do justice to just how dominant India have been fo rthe last two tests though. Moral victory in the first test (with players now deemed unselectable) seems a long time ago.

Hey Goose...I did say they weren't an exact match : as you say , Bell , etc were better bats. I was oversimplifying ; but I think you understand what I mean : four in , four out , net result a bit less with the bat , bit more with the ball...spills over to the Missing Swann factor...
I really wanted to push the point that Trott was arguably more important to that order than even his actual runs ; as his solid presence at three allowed KP and Bell to play their own game. When he went , everything suddenly looked a bit shaky.

I see you're still determined to get those gloves off YJB

Don't think you'll get your way just yet : his batting record at six and seven , gloves or not , is markedly superior to that at five ; so it may not be that he'd prove a perfect fit for that spot anyway ? I think we may see Moeen at five in the summer...though that does leave me a bit anxious about the trip to Australia...

God this is painful. Both Moeen and Stokes living dangerously at the moment.

Moeen rather tossed it away then after playing very well.

Sticking to my prediction of an Indian win. They've actually lasted better than I feared ; but at some point I'm expecting a full- on slide to disaster...

Oh Moeen - what have you done?

England's all-rounders once again fail to curb their natural attacking instincts. Even more annoying that he'd played so well for so long.

England now five wickets down and still an hour to survive. Just when we were starting to look somewhat comfortable.


Oh Christ it gets worse. Stokes with an equally brainless shot England now 6 down.


The sooner we get more proper batsmen in the side and ditch some of these "bits and pieces" players the better.

Stokes gone. Jadeja the wrecker.

Game over.

Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

Is it too late to call up Graham Onions?

Have never really seen them batting through the day...had a brief burst of hope around luncheon before those four wickets clattered down but generally have been watching without any expectation of permanence...

Dawson gone and the end is coming quickly.

I've seen this movie too often before

VTR wrote:Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

Yes was going to say people seem to be blaming it all on Moeen - who is literally the only reason we haven't lost already

VTR wrote:Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

That is the one mitigating factor. Still a stupid dismissal, despite the good work before, but then he shouldn't be batting that high up the order in the first place.

Criticism still due because he is a "senior" player and knows the match situation. He'd played himself in but then chose to play a needless shot. But thats the nature of the guy - he likes to play his shots (which is why he needs to be batting lower down).



...aaaand England throwing the match as quickly as possible to get the series over and done with.

Dawson gone for a duck and India are 3 wickets away from wrapping up a 4-0 series humiliation for England.

Really dissapointed with the way england are chucking these wickets away . Some horrendous shots.

The positive news is - the winter of England being tortured on spinning tracks is almost over

VTR wrote:The positive news is - the winter of England being tortured on spinning tracks is almost over

The silver lining in this huge, grey cloud...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

Yes was going to say people seem to be blaming it all on Moeen - who is literally the only reason we haven't lost already

Well you know the rule , Olly : it is the well set batsman who gets out to an extravagant shot just when people are starting to relax , thereby precipitating a collapse , who gets the blame.

Actually I blame Goose . Fancy calling a draw with ninety odd minutes left

Where's Trebell when we need him ?

Gooseberry wrote:Really dissapointed with the way england are chucking these wickets away . Some horrendous shots.

Yep. An hour ago we were only 4 wickets down and looking in with a good chance of getting a draw.

Pretty brainless display since then has condemned us to another defeat.

dyrewolfe wrote:

VTR wrote:Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

That is the one mitigating factor. Still a stupid dismissal, despite the good work before, but then he shouldn't be batting that high up the order in the first place.

Criticism still due because he is a "senior" player and knows the match situation. He'd played himself in but then chose to play a needless shot. But thats the nature of the guy - he likes to play his shots (which is why he needs to be batting lower down).



...aaaand England throwing the match as quickly as possible to get the series over and done with.

Dawson gone for a duck and India are 3 wickets away from wrapping up a 4-0 series humiliation for England.

He also chucked away his wicket in teh first innings. Its the difference between him being a 7/8 averaging mid low 30's and a 4/5 avergaing mid low 40's. He has the ability, but doesnt apply it.

Root gets the same kicking for failing to make the best of his positions, the difference is hes still avergaing 50+ becaus ehes that damn good.

But the real annoyance here is that all they needed to do was stay in. Moeen and Stokes had rode their luck through teh partnership with some agressive and at times poor shots. They just dont learn.

"Its the way I play" ciut it with KP to some extent, but not for a failed spin bowler trying to justify a place in the side as a batsman.

If anything good can come out of this - it really does expose the fallacy of playing three specialist batsman. We say long batting line up, the opposition says: we fancy this lot from 4 downwards

And all those bowling options result in a record score conceded and a 300 by a guy averaging 8 before. Shambolic from the selectors and Bayliss

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

Yes was going to say people seem to be blaming it all on Moeen - who is literally the only reason we haven't lost already

What match are you watching? If Cook and Jennings hadn't seen off the first session, we WOULD have lost already.

We can blame, shame as much as we won't - ultimately India are just a lot lot better at playing cricket in India, than England are.

Don't think we need some sort of witch hunt - still got a good promising side, that's missing a few pieces which we are still trying to find

dyrewolfe wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

Yes was going to say people seem to be blaming it all on Moeen - who is literally the only reason we haven't lost already

What match are you watching? If Cook and Jennings hadn't seen off the first session, we WOULD have lost already.

The one where he's outscored every other England batsman by about 100 runs

VTR wrote:If anything good can come out of this - it really does expose the fallacy of playing three specialist batsman. We say long batting line up, the opposition says: we fancy this lot from 4 downwards

And all those bowling options result in a record score conceded and a 300 by a guy averaging 8 before. Shambolic from the selectors and Bayliss

It does but to be fair on the sleectors with that they kind of got forced into it. Coming here they took big risks in bringing the 3 of the 5 specialist bats; its not like they glaringly left anyone behind. YeahbutJennings ... they werent ever going to bring 4 openers (plus Ali and Root whove played there). They can only pick the players who exist. All rounders is where their strength lay, whats been exposed is that those players just arent good enough and we know that issue needs to be fixed batting and bowling.
Id rather pin the future on guys like Leach than Dawson, and not write off Duckett as a potential mid order bat just yet either.
And yes wrestle the gloves off Bairstow, get him concnetrating on being a 50 plus batsman and have a keeper who concentrates on keeping.


And their goers RAshid trying to play a smart arse shot when he didnt need to. Christ this is embaressing.

I think England are trying to ensure that Ashwin ends the series wicketless by gifting their wickets to the other bowlers.

Gooseberry wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

VTR wrote:Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

That is the one mitigating factor. Still a stupid dismissal, despite the good work before, but then he shouldn't be batting that high up the order in the first place.

Criticism still due because he is a "senior" player and knows the match situation. He'd played himself in but then chose to play a needless shot. But thats the nature of the guy - he likes to play his shots (which is why he needs to be batting lower down).



...aaaand England throwing the match as quickly as possible to get the series over and done with.

Dawson gone for a duck and India are 3 wickets away from wrapping up a 4-0 series humiliation for England.

He also chucked away his wicket in teh first innings. Its the difference between him being a 7/8 averaging mid low 30's  and a 4/5  avergaing mid low 40's. He has the ability, but doesnt apply it.

Root gets the same kicking for failing to make the best of his positions, the difference is hes still avergaing 50+ becaus ehes that damn good.

But the real annoyance here is that all they needed to do was stay in. Moeen and Stokes had rode their luck through teh partnership with some agressive and at times poor shots. They just dont learn.

"Its the way I play" ciut it with KP to some extent, but not for a failed spin bowler trying to justify a place in the side as a batsman.

Indeed. Moeen, although he obviously can make big scores, just doesn't have the temperament or consistency for a higher order batsman. Especially if our opening pair fall early and he has to face relatively new balls and fresh bowlers. Similarly I feel Stokes is batting at least 1 place too high.

Root is obviously going through some problems and needs to work on converting his 50s into 100s, but is generally more consistent and is a proper specialist bat.

VTR wrote:
If anything good can come out of this - it really does expose the fallacy of playing three specialist batsman. We say long batting line up, the opposition says: we fancy this lot from 4 downwards

And all those bowling options result in a record score conceded and a 300 by a guy averaging 8 before. Shambolic from the selectors and Bayliss

Agreed. Sad really, but what else can you expect when you load the side with players who are essentially ODI and/or T20 specialists. Jacks of all trades and master of none.

As I said before in another post, after Root I always have the feeling we are only ever one rash, or poorly-played shot away from the next wicket.

Only real criticism of our bowling I have is that the ECB seem to have made no effort whatsoever to ensure we had a replacement (or two) for Swann.

I'm not so sure they were forced into it - there was absolutely no planning for this tour and we are getting the result that we deserve

Bayliss has improved the ODI side but has been very underwhelming looking after the Test team as he only seems to know the players that he's seen on TV in the IPL

Minimum of 13 overs left but India would probably be able to have even a couple more if needed. A deserved benefit of not taking forever to get through your overs.

That's pathetic from Stokes and Ali, players deserve dropping for such idiocy.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's pathetic from Stokes and Ali, players deserve dropping for such idiocy.

There won't be much of a team left if we are dropping people for today's dismissals - I make it at least 6 today who would get the chop!

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Not great from Moeen - but he did almost eat up 100 balls in his innings, which is a decent effort. If we don't get the draw it will be those that didn't even get in before having a massive swipe that will be at fault

Stokes gone now - defeat is looking the most likely outcome

Yes was going to say people seem to be blaming it all on Moeen - who is literally the only reason we haven't lost already

What match are you watching? If Cook and Jennings hadn't seen off the first session, we WOULD have lost already.

The one where he's outscored every other England batsman by about 100 runs

Oh, you're talking about the first innings. Fine, but it would have been nice if he could have contributed in the 3 previous matches.

He helped set up the draw in the first test, but thats been his only other notable contribution with the bat.

guildfordbat wrote:Minimum of 13 overs left but India would probably be able to have even a couple more if needed. A deserved benefit of not taking forever to get through your overs.

Yep, India have at least 2 more overs for the day if required. 15 to be bowled in the last hour - more if they can squeeze 'em in - meaning 92 overs now permitted for today.

VTR wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's pathetic from Stokes and Ali, players deserve dropping for such idiocy.

There won't be much of a team left if we are dropping people for today's dismissals - I make it at least 6 today who would get the chop!

It also depends on the instructiuoin they got. If it was " play your natural game without fear, dont let them just bowl at you" then its a bit harsh to critisize them.

If it was "just hold on and show some dicspline, no soft wickets" then they should be shot as traitors.

Either way I think this will have made Cooks mind up to quit as Captain.

Gooseberry wrote:

VTR wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's pathetic from Stokes and Ali, players deserve dropping for such idiocy.

There won't be much of a team left if we are dropping people for today's dismissals - I make it at least 6 today who would get the chop!

It also depends on the instructiuoin they got. If it was " play your natural game without fear, dont let them just bowl at you" then its a bit harsh to critisize them.

If it was "just hold on and show some dicspline, no soft wickets" then they should be shot as traitors.

Either way I think this will have made Cooks mind up to quit as Captain.

If he wasn't sure before, this might have been the nudge he needed. Who would be your choice to replace him? Think Root is ready to shoulder the burden?

Back to the match, this has to rank up there alongside some of England's greatest ever collapses. Going from 103-1 to 200-8 is pretty good going!

We could still save this. See out the next 2 overs and then just 60 balls for the last two wickets to hold out. Including perhaps a bit of time wasting to ensure India don't get any extra overs!

Agree this will probably nudge Cook out of the door, if he wasn't already running towards it!

Oh come on Wolfe ...no amount of "planning" would have produced a replacement for Swann. Nearly as difficult for England as Australia replacing Warne. The best they could hope for was a reasonable second or third best - more goose than Swann , perhaps.
You can fairly say that settling on Moeen as the lead spinner for so long was inviting trouble when traveling to these parts ; but what would you have had them do ? Ignore the Ashes , SA tours etc and prioritize Indian tours ? They introduced Rashid , tried Ansari... Some problems just don't have ready answers...

I don't condemn the bowlers ; but the 4-0 defeat really is mainly down to their inability to get India out under 400 in any of the matches. Batting has been fallible at times ; but its the bowling that just hasn't turned up.

VTR wrote:
Bayliss has improved the ODI side but has been very underwhelming looking after the Test team as he only seems to know the players that he's seen on TV in the IPL

Thats true, but then he has Flower and othe selectors to do that job for him and bring forward the players for the squad. Theres also the Lions.

He and Cook have taken the recomended players and tried to build sides form them. As it transpires theyve largely been rubbish.

I would ask which specialist bowlers and batsmen have been overlooked for the tour though? Jennings arguably initialy but then he hadnt even been lions capped and was a one season wonder in the CC. Leach arguably, although as it turns out he may have got busted halfway through for chucking. So really Dawson is about the best we can come up with as a bad initial overlooked selection in favour of Batty or Ansari. A guy with a County average over 40 with the ball who had a quiet season. Samit Patel? Kevin pietersen?

I also dont think its fair to say they havent planned for this tour. Its not like they havent been trying to turn Rashid into a test bowler for years, and Moeen has been given a lot of dedicated specilaist coaching. Ansari has been developed through the Lions and limited overs sides with a view to being the new less rubbish Samit Patel for this tour. They took Ballance because hes suppossed to be good against spin. They played a competitive warm up series in bangladesh instead of 3 day games against the local board presidents nephews as would be traditional.
the players not being good enough or playing well enough cant be put down to just a lack of preperation.
Id also point out that they were pretty medicore over the summer at home, the decline of the side had already started before coming here.
Perhaps the mental side has been neglected a bit. The happy slappy go out and play thats liberated the limited overs side seems to have had the opposite effect on this one.

But then its also easy to forget that this isnt exactly unusual for test winter tours. theres a couple of Ashes series that went just as badly, if not worse, in the not so distant past. And then theres the UAE tours.

If I was a betting man, I would now be asking PaddyPower if they would cancel the bet!

And yes there have been some silly shots today. But I for one expected that to happen : England were never going to bunker down for 100 overs. And had they tried to do so I've little doubt they'd all have ended up falling to bat-pads or lbw s sooner or later.

Playing shots was sensible. The execution wasn't good enough. On these pitches , Ashwin and Jadeja are too good for them. I'm only surprised that anyone is surprised ...

Let the abuse really begin ....

There it is - thank god that is all over. A winter to forget

Actually am quite looking forward to the ODIs as we have definitely improved there and I will give Bayliss credit for that and do want to see us win some kind of ODI trophy at some point in our history!

dyrewolfe wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

VTR wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's pathetic from Stokes and Ali, players deserve dropping for such idiocy.

There won't be much of a team left if we are dropping people for today's dismissals - I make it at least 6 today who would get the chop!

It also depends on the instructiuoin they got. If it was " play your natural game without fear, dont let them just bowl at you" then its a bit harsh to critisize them.

If it was "just hold on and show some dicspline, no soft wickets" then they should be shot as traitors.

Either way I think this will have made Cooks mind up to quit as Captain.

If he wasn't sure before, this might have been the nudge he needed. Who would be your choice to replace him? Think Root is ready to shoulder the burden?

I think it has to be Root. Who else? Broad is the only other vague possibility but Im not sure how much longer he'll last as a test player and hes had a pretty mixed discilinary record and relationship with fans/media.

Screw it make Dawson captain, apparently his two wickets have made him the greatest all round cricketer England have ever had.

I'll leave the abuse to the press...

Will congratulate India , especially Jadeja today for some great cricket

England at least competed in most matches - until they cracked. But crack they did , each time. Quite a thing to score 477 and lose by an innings !