Wales 23 to play against Italy?

1. Rob Evans
2. Ken Owens
3. Samson Lee
4. Luke Charteris
5. Alun Wyn Jones
6. Ross Moriarty
7. Sam Warburton
8. Taulupe Faletau
9. Rhys Webb
10. Sam Davies
11. George North
12. Scott Williams
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Keelan Giles
15. Liam Williams

16. Ryan Elias
17. Nicky Smith
18. Tomas Francis
19. Jake Ball
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Gareth Davies
22. Dan Biggar
23. Leigh Halfpenny

Faletau and Webb are both injured so are unlikely to be available, so I expect Tipuric and Gareth Davies to start. JD2 is also struggling so Roberts might also start. I cannot see any chance that Halfpenny will be dropped, so expect him to start and Liam Williams play wing.

Tipuric starts at 7 and i imagine Howler gave Sam a call and discussed the fact he is not going to get picked and managed a way to allow him some dignity in being dropped.
And if you bench Biggar then Half has to start but i think he should be on one wing with Giles on the other, bench North.

For me, Liam Williams has to start at 15, and I would start Biggar at 10- his goal kicking is on a par with halfpenny, so it maybe harsh, but I think halfpenny would possibly drop to the bench, with North and Giles on the wings.

Would otherwise go with Davies at 10, and possibly then drop North to the bench to accommodate Halfpenny on the wing, but I don't think he offers as much ball in hand as he did when he first came onto the scene... what's Davies' goal kicking from range like?

Whose going to replace Cuthbert ? For me its Hewitt or Giles

Anybody wanting Giles in are mental. The kid has had two or three starts for Ospreys, yes he has potential, but FFS come on. Let the kid get some more regional experience before we throw him to the wolves.

LordDowlais wrote:Anybody wanting Giles in are mental. The kid has had two or three starts for Ospreys, yes he has potential, but FFS come on. Let the kid get some more regional experience before we throw him to the wolves.

I kinda just meant Hewitt but wanted to appease the WOL readers.

Who would you pick to replace Cuthbert ?

munkian wrote:Who would you pick to replace Cuthbert ?

Liam Williams.

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:Who would you pick to replace Cuthbert ?

Liam Williams.

He should be 15 surely ?

munkian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:Who would you pick to replace Cuthbert ?

Liam Williams.

He should be 15 surely ?

Halfpenny at 15 Liam on the wing, or vice versa. They can both do a job in either position. Why do people all of a sudden not want Halfpenny at fullback ?

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:Who would you pick to replace Cuthbert ?

Liam Williams.

He should be 15 surely ?

Halfpenny at 15 Liam on the wing, or vice versa. They can both do a job in either position. Why do people all of a sudden not want Halfpenny at fullback ?

Its not all of a sudden, people have been saying for a while that Halfpenny is far too conservative at FB and Sanjay is wasted on the wing as he doesn't get any ball in space.

munkian wrote:Its not all of a sudden, people have been saying for a while that Halfpenny is far too conservative at FB and Sanjay is wasted on the wing as he doesn't get any ball in space.

So what we are saying then, is that we drop Leigh Halfpenny for Keelan Giles or Ashton Hewitt ? If so then it's madness.

Halfpenny goes to fullback and Liam Williams goes on the wing. It has been done, and worked in the past.

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:Its not all of a sudden, people have been saying for a while that Halfpenny is far too conservative at FB and Sanjay is wasted on the wing as he doesn't get any ball in space.

So what we are saying then, is that we drop Leigh Halfpenny for Keelan Giles or Ashton Hewitt ? If so then it's madness.

Halfpenny goes to fullback and Liam Williams goes on the wing. It has been done, and worked in the past.

I'd have Sanjay at 15 and Halfpence on the wing. I only mentioned Hewitt as I've not seen much of Halfpenny recently and forgotten about him.

And giving a young winger his first cap against Italy is hardly 'madness' - who was North's first game against ?

munkian wrote:I'd have Sanjay at 15 and Halfpence on the wing. I only mentioned Hewitt as I've not seen much of Halfpenny recently and forgotten about him.

Yes, it's horses for courses in that respect.

munkian wrote:And giving a young winger his first cap against Italy is hardly 'madness' - who was North's first game against ?

It's a bit different, North was banging tries in left right and center for Scarlets, he was ripping the league apart.

[quote="LordDowlais"]

munkian wrote:I'd have Sanjay at 15 and Halfpence on the wing. I only mentioned Hewitt as I've not seen much of Halfpenny recently and forgotten about him.

Yes, it's horses for courses in that respect.

munkian wrote:And giving a young winger his first cap against Italy is hardly 'madness' - who was North's first game against ?

It's a bit different, North was banging tries in left right and center for Scarlets, he was ripping the league apart. [/quote

North had played bugger all league games before his Welsh cap.

Giles has around 8 tries in 5 games for the Ospreys

OK.

Cuthbert shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Liam Williams is the more natural fullback- is solid in defense and offers a much better counter-attacking threat than Halfpenny. Seems a fair few people have forgotten that Halfpenny was originally called into the Welsh squad as a wing, and converted to fullback when we were lacking options there. So in that respect, I'd have Williams over Halfpenny at fullback every time. Would be happy enough with halfpenny on the wing, but if Dan's fit to play at 10, and there are wingers who offer more going forward available, I'd be tempted to start them over Halfpenny... I haven't seen enough of Giles to say for sure that he offers more, but I think I'd start him, and maybe bring halfpenny on to replace him if needs be. If he does well, give him the whole game.

I'm struggling to remember the last time Halfpenny did anything other than boot it back down field from 15, whereas Williams is almost always looking to run it back as his first option...

I'd have expected to see Giles debut v Japan but of course we ran it so close they couldn't risk it. With Cuthbert finally having done enough to be deselected on a permanent basis and with Liam Half and North fit, we'll most likely see that as the back 3 for the foreseeable but Giles has to get his cap v Scots or italy, neither of which will be the walkover that they have been traditionally for Wales.

In fact the backs are fairly easy to pick right now.
G Davies, North, S Davies, Scott/Roberts, J Davies/Scott, Half, Liam.

Biggar and Roberts or Giles to make up the bench.

Gwlad wrote:I'd have expected to see Giles debut v Japan but of course we ran it so close they couldn't risk it. With Cuthbert finally having done enough to be deselected on a permanent basis and with Liam Half and North fit, we'll most likely see that as the back 3 for the foreseeable but Giles has to get his cap v Scots or italy, neither of which will be the walkover that they have been traditionally for Wales.

In fact the backs are fairly easy to pick right now.
G Davies, North, S Davies, Scott/Roberts, J Davies/Scott, Half, Liam.

Biggar and Roberts or Giles to make up the bench.

Is Giles just ahead of Hewitt because he plays for a more successful club ?

munkian wrote:Is Giles just ahead of Hewitt because he plays for a more successful club ?

Neither of them should be anywhere near the Welsh team yet, especially Giles.

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:Is Giles just ahead of Hewitt because he plays for a more successful club ?

Neither of them should be anywhere near the Welsh team yet, especially Giles.

I've seen your reasoning for Giles but Hewitt has plenty of exposure at club level ?

LordDowels.

Re Halfpenny, do you simply want him in the team at any position? 15-wing.

Or do you want Halfpenny in for his goal kicking only?

majesticimperialman wrote:LordDowels.

Re Halfpenny, do you simply want him in the team at any position? 15-wing.

Or do you want Halfpenny in for his goal kicking only?

Neither, I want him in because he is the best option.

LordDowlais wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:LordDowels.

Re Halfpenny, do you simply want him in the team at any position? 15-wing.

Or do you want Halfpenny in for his goal kicking only?

Neither, I want him in because he is the best option.

Best option where and why ?

munkian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:LordDowels.

Re Halfpenny, do you simply want him in the team at any position? 15-wing.

Or do you want Halfpenny in for his goal kicking only?

Neither, I want him in because he is the best option.

Best option where and why ?

He is the best option along with Liam Williams. With Liam on one wing and Leigh at fullback. For the record I recon Steff Evans is ahead of the que after that option. He has done far more in the Pro12 than Keelan Giles and Ashton Hewitt.

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:LordDowels.

Re Halfpenny, do you simply want him in the team at any position? 15-wing.

Or do you want Halfpenny in for his goal kicking only?

Neither, I want him in because he is the best option.

Best option where and why ?

He is the best option along with Liam Williams. With Liam on one wing and Leigh at fullback. For the record I recon Steff Evans is ahead of the que after that option. He has done far more in the Pro12 than Keelan Giles and Ashton Hewitt.

Like what ?

Im just pleased weve got pacy wings with a good step coming through instead of the big lumps out wide now. Hopefully , they can get George back to using his step instead of his power.

Im in the camp for Hewitt to play. Should have been in last years squad for experience but now deserves to play alongside North and Williams.

Im not a massive halfpenny fan and if you take his goal kicking away from him offers little imo. His try scoring record for a back three player is not great

True Raven wrote:Im just pleased weve got pacy wings with a good step coming through instead of the big lumps out wide now.  Hopefully , they can get George back to using his step instead of his power.

Im in the camp for Hewitt to play.  Should have been in last years squad for experience but now deserves to play alongside North and Williams.

Im not a massive halfpenny fan and if you take his goal kicking away from him offers little imo.  His try scoring record for a back three player is not great

Thing is, Halfpenny used to be more of an attacking threat and run the ball but its been coached out of him by Gatland and co. I'd have him on the wing to get him used to running more, he still has power and pace.

munkian wrote:Like what ?

Oh for christ sake. OK, let's ignore the fact that he has made more tries, scored more tries, made more yardage, and just say that he can cover fullback as well.

Let's see you make a claim for Hewitt or Giles.

Amos still to come back too. He's been playing very well in a poor Dragons team (before injury). In fact him and Hewitt have linked very well together. Amos can cover 15 too.

Great to see some depth starting to develop. However, unfortunately in Wales we seem to get depth in one or two positions at a time! At the moment wing and flanker seems to be somewhere that we've got good first team players and exciting prospects waiting in the wings. Last few years it was scrum half. Centres seem a bit lacking in options. If we could only develop depth throughout the squad, that would be fantastic.

Griff wrote:Amos still to come back too. He's been playing very well in a poor Dragons team (before injury).

Ah, forgot about him. Yes, he is ahead of the rest in the pecking order as well. When he returns then we can talk about leaving Halfpenny out as we have a worthy replacement.

Just looked it up:

Hewitt has 5 tries this season in 12 games.
Steff Evans has 5 tries this season in 17 games.

Both cracking players. Hewitt the more prolific just on try scoring rate at the moment.

Griff wrote:Centres seem a bit lacking in options.

Hmmm, I don't know. We have Cory Allen, Jack Dixon, Tyler Morgan, Owen Watkins, John Davies, Scott Williams, Jamie Roberts for starters.

Griff wrote:Just looked it up:

Hewitt has 5 tries this season in 12 games.
Steff Evans has 5 tries this season in 17 games.

Both cracking players.  Hewitt the more prolific just on try scoring rate at the moment.

I did not realise that, it's just the rugby I have watched this season, I see Steff Evans offering a lot more, he creates an awful lot of opportunities, but that might just be because he has better forwards giving the backs a better platform at Scarlets. He can also play fullback.

Griff wrote:Just looked it up:

Hewitt has 5 tries this season in 12 games.
Steff Evans has 5 tries this season in 17 games.

Both cracking players.  Hewitt the more prolific just on try scoring rate at the moment.

Plus Hewitt is playing behind the Dragon's pack.

But Griff, very mean of you to use actual facts, very underhand

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Centres seem a bit lacking in options.

Hmmm, I don't know. We have Cory Allen, Jack Dixon, Tyler Morgan, Owen Watkins, John Davies, Scott Williams, Jamie Roberts for starters.

Unfortunately Tyler hasn't really come on leaps and bounds since injury. Im pretty sure Dixon is injured isn't he ?

Great position to be in:
North, Halfpenny, Liam Williams, Steff Evans, Hewitt, Amos, Giles, Cuthbert (I've included him as he was once pretty decent so he should be allowed the chance to go back to his region, concentrate on his game without the international pressure, and who knows maybe he can be a decent wing contender again). I'm sure I've missed a few too!

munkian wrote: Im pretty sure Dixon is injured isn't he ?

I am sure he played in the Xmas derbies ?

Griff wrote:Great position to be in:
North, Halfpenny, Liam Williams, Steff Evans, Hewitt, Amos, Giles, Cuthbert (I've included him as he was once pretty decent so he should be allowed the chance to go back to his region, concentrate on his game without the international pressure, and who knows maybe he can be a decent wing contender again).  I'm sure I've missed a few too!

Brew doing well at Bath

Ah yes! Breeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew!

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote: Im pretty sure Dixon is injured isn't he ?

I am sure he played in the Xmas derbies ?

Nope, combos of Beard, Morgan, Warren.

Back row looking decent too with Warbs (out of form but not writing him off completely yet), Tips, Faletau, Baker (not everyone's cup of tea), Moriaty, Cracknell (could he play for Wales?), Underhill (ditto), Ollie Griffiths, Ellis Jenkins, Cubby Davies, Lydiate, Navidi - and a host more I've forgotten again too!

Cracknell is tied to Wales and i would have him and Thomas Young in the squad. Young hungry players who are in scintilating form right now although no doubt Warburton will be rushed back into the team

Also just read a stat that Tips hasnt missed a tackle in 11 months for club and country. 160 made and none missed and people doubt his defensive side of the game and say hes a luxury player but not a grafter

I meant to add Thomas Young! Yes, he was one of the first I thought about!

True Raven wrote:Cracknell is tied to Wales and i would have him and Thomas Young in the squad. Young hungry players who are in scintilating form right now although no doubt Warburton will be rushed back into the team

Pushing younger players would be ludicrous according to LD..

True Raven wrote:Also just read a stat that Tips hasnt missed a tackle in 11 months for club and country.  160 made and none missed and people doubt his defensive side of the game and say hes a luxury player but not a grafter

Must admit I've been in this camp previously. Not at club level , where he's always excellent, but my perception of him at international level has been that he's not so effective in the tackle are, turnovers, etc. I always saw his as perhaps that little bit too small for the international game. Happy to be wrong on that though. He's certainly on fire this season.

I'd be bold and start Hewitt, Sam Davies, Cracknell and Beck alongside S Williams in midfield.

Not sure I'd go straight in with a rookie side personally!  I just worry that it would be like the 3rd Autumn International game against traditionally weaker teams.  We often (but not this year) thrown in a load of fringes players as a scratch team and then they get slated for struggling against the likes of Fiji, Samoa, etc.  But It would be good to blood these players at various times to see how they do.

munkian wrote:Pushing younger players would be ludicrous according to LD..

Yes it is. It's the same now, Keelan Giles is on a hiding to nothing. He is still a kid. This is the one thing Gatland does right. He integrates these kids with potential into the squad, so they see what it's all about first, then see how they are and perhaps puts them on the bench.

Keelan Giles for me is not even at that stage, Steff Evans and Ashton Hewitt are though, I would not begrudge them a call up to the Welsh squad, and perhaps a bench spot if they show up in training, but I would not throw them straight in.