Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Brown's late tackle on Daly was everything that the laws of the Tip Tackle were designed for and supposed to prevent. Here we have a clear late tip tackle that results in a significant head injury. An injury where he was forced to leave the field by the England coaches because they had obviously noticed that Daly was not right despite passing a HIA. So that ref and the TMO clearly believe that a significant head injury is not important when it comes to adjudicating on late tip tackles. Merely did the injured player land on his shoulder, neck or head! If he didn't and broke his neck then a yellow card would suffice. I think these refs need some re education regarding why the tip tackle laws are in place. Indeed, even if Daly was able to continue the ferocity of that late tip tackle would almost warrant a Red Card because of the injury it 'may' have caused. I hope Brown is cited and given an appropriate ban.

What was the significant Injury?

He was lucky to get a yellow.

He landed on the top of his back verging on the neck area so that made it a borderline decision between red and yellow. The thing that made it red for me was that he followed through with the tackle, drove him into the ground and at no point made any attempt to protect his opponent.

I suppose the referee adopted the strict letter of the law and based his decision purely on where he landed rather than looking at the whole context. He might have been reluctant to give a red so early and ruin the game.

Outcome should not and is not the determining factor in deciding these things. Serious injuries can be caused by innocuous challenges sometime.

Tommy Seymour was removed by a late tackle that was not deemed high enough to even warrant a card. If outcome was the determining factor there then Hughes should have walked as well.

For what it is worse I think both calls were correct. It was a poor tackle by Brown but Daley did land on his back, he deserved his card and it seriously cost his team. Hughes was late and clumsy but not high.

I am happier with some sort of objective criteria to judge these things rather than some of the lottery decisions we have had in the past.

The Hughes tackle was a penalty but not a card. Seymour was actually incredibly unlucky as he caught one of the Gray's hands on the way down which is what I suspect did the damage. Either that or whiplash as Hughes really caught him.

For the sake of the game I am glad it was just a yellow for Brown but it was borderline worse. Brown's head also went smack into Daly's face after they hit the ground.

lostinwales wrote:The Hughes tackle was a penalty but not a card. Seymour was actually incredibly unlucky as he caught one of the Gray's hands on the way down which is what I suspect did the damage. Either that or whiplash as Hughes really caught him.

For the sake of the game I am glad it was just a yellow for Brown but it was borderline worse. Brown's head also went smack into Daly's face after they hit the ground.

I think it probably was the whiplash, as he really did stop him in his tracks. It looked like the classic clothesline at first glance in real time, but on review it was not.

I think Brown was lucky to avoid a red too. However I also think Hughes was lucky to avoid a yellow. The ref didn't have a great game to be fair.

aucklandlaurie wrote:What was the significant Injury?

Doh! The injury that caused him to take no further part in the game. You remember. The injury that caused Watson to come on as a sub. That one. Surely you remember that? But I forgot. You come from the land where a double handed tip tackle which results in a dislocated shoulder for the poor assaulted player is fair game. My bad.

What injury did he get? I assumed it was a borderline concussion.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What injury did he get? I assumed it was a borderline concussion.

I thought it was too. That's an injury in my book. An injury to the brain.

Yeah by significant I thought you meant long term.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah by significant I thought you meant long term.

By 'significant' I meant he effectively played less than 2 minutes and took no further part in the game.

I'd go with early but ok.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Brown was lucky to avoid a red too. However I also think Hughes was lucky to avoid a yellow. The ref didn't have a great game to be fair.

Interested to know on what grounds you think Hughes deserved a yellow card?

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What injury did he get? I assumed it was a borderline concussion.

I thought it was too. That's an injury in my book. An injury to the brain.

There should be no such thing as a borderline concussion. From a medical perspective if there was any suggestion that he was concussed during his assessment then he should not have come back on. I am surprised that they did bring him back on, he seemed very groggy when he went off.

By letting him back on the pitch the English medics were effectively saying he was not concussed.

Yup and then from the looks of it the coaching staff decided he wasn't 100%.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup and then from the looks of it the coaching staff decided he wasn't 100%.

That was a good call by the coaching staff, England had the game already won by that point and there was no sense in risking him any further if, for whatever reason, he still did not seem right.

Not sure they'd got a point then had they.

I thought Daly went off because of a shoulder injury rather than concussion.

I don't know. Hence my question initially.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure they'd got a point then had they.

Not when he went off, but they had a few by the time he came back on!

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought Daly went off because of a shoulder injury rather than concussion.

He went off for a HIA, which along with a blood injury would be the only reason you could go off then come back on in that fashion. He may well have hurt his shoulder as well and that may be why he was subsequently pulled off after being cleared to return following his HIA.

BigGee wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought Daly went off because of a shoulder injury rather than concussion.

He went off for a HIA, which along with a blood injury would be the only reason you could go off then come back on in that fashion. He may well have hurt his shoulder as well and that may be why he was subsequently pulled off after being cleared to return following his HIA.

I was alluding to him leaving the pitch permanently.

englandglory4ever wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:What was the significant Injury?

Doh! The injury that caused him to take no further part in the game. You remember. The injury that caused Watson to come on as a sub. That one. Surely you remember that? But I forgot. You come from the land where a double handed tip tackle which results in a dislocated shoulder for the poor assaulted player is fair game. My bad.

  But what was the significant injury? I Didnt ask for a lecture.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Brown was lucky to avoid a red too. However I also think Hughes was lucky to avoid a yellow. The ref didn't have a great game to be fair.

Interested to know on what grounds you think Hughes deserved a yellow card?

Clumsy, late challenge that resulted in an injury to a player. Clear it up any?

BigGee wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought Daly went off because of a shoulder injury rather than concussion.

He went off for a HIA, which along with a blood injury would be the only reason you could go off then come back on in that fashion. He may well have hurt his shoulder as well and that may be why he was subsequently pulled off after being cleared to return following his HIA.

I suspect (hope) that this is the case (shoulder or possibly neck). There should be no question of coming back onto the pitch if his head isn't right

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Brown was lucky to avoid a red too. However I also think Hughes was lucky to avoid a yellow. The ref didn't have a great game to be fair.

Interested to know on what grounds you think Hughes deserved a yellow card?

Clumsy, late challenge that resulted in an injury to a player. Clear it up any?

Clumsy? No
Late? Marginally

It causing an injury is neither here nor there.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Brown was lucky to avoid a red too. However I also think Hughes was lucky to avoid a yellow. The ref didn't have a great game to be fair.

Interested to know on what grounds you think Hughes deserved a yellow card?

Clumsy, late challenge that resulted in an injury to a player. Clear it up any?

Clumsy? No
Late? Marginally

It causing an injury is neither here nor there.

Well personally I would have red carded brown and yellow carded Hughes. But that's not why I'm a referee.

I think Yellow was fair for Brown, my problem with that was his nonchalant attitude towards the referee as he left the pitch whereas you'd see multiple yellow cards every game for slightly late hits.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Brown was lucky to avoid a red too. However I also think Hughes was lucky to avoid a yellow. The ref didn't have a great game to be fair.

Interested to know on what grounds you think Hughes deserved a yellow card?

Clumsy, late challenge that resulted in an injury to a player. Clear it up any?

Clumsy? No
Late? Marginally

It causing an injury is neither here nor there.

Well personally I would have red carded brown and yellow carded Hughes. But that's not why I'm a referee.

I could sort of have lived with that but a red card so early on would have killed the game (little did we know at the time....) It was also a textbook example of the kind of dump tackle that the authorities are getting very heavy on.

The Hughes hit is much more complicated. Had Seymour had the ball in his hands at the time he was hit nobody would have complained. But he didn't, so it was foul play and it did result in his injury. I am sure the rule book says late hit and penalty - I don't know what space there is for a further sanction in the interpretation of the laws when someone does get hurt like that

lostinwales wrote:I don't know what space there is for a further sanction in the interpretation of the laws when someone does get hurt like that

There is not really, though sometimes refs are swayed, which is the inconsistent factor that drives fans nuts.

Outcomes are always going to be variable, it is the offence that needs punishing.

Seymour unfortunately took a late hit from a man probably 5 stone heavier than him that stopped in dead in his tracks. It was not crazy late, more clumsy and was not high and yet it took him out of the game. Just unlucky really, it is a physical game at the end of the day.

Brown was a certain yellow, not much to argue on Could have been a red on another day but he got lucky it was early on.

Hughes was barley a pen for me. In real time he was committed to the tackle and it was barley late, if at all. The slow motion replay makes it look later than it actually was but it was a perfectly fine tackle, a pretty good one to be fair.

The injury inflicted by a tackle has absolutely no relevance to the card or the punishment during the game. Seymour could have broke his neck (heaven forbid), it would not take away the fact it was a legal tackle by Hughes, although deemed to be slightly late.

I actually thought the ref had a fine game, especially for one of his first Int games.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

The injury inflicted by a tackle has absolutely no relevance to the card or the punishment during the game. Seymour could have broke his neck (heaven forbid), it would not take away the fact it was a legal tackle by Hughes, although deemed to be slightly late.

It would have been a legal tackle and a good one, if Seymour still had the ball in his hands. He had however already kicked it ahead. He was then poleaxed by a much bigger guy.

Yes he was committed but it was a fraction late and worthy of a penalty.

Clear red if ever I saw one

TightHEAD wrote:Clear red if ever I saw one

Bit harsh on Hughes I would say!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Brown was a certain yellow, not much to argue on Could have been a red on another day but he got lucky it was early on.

Hughes was barley a pen for me. In real time he was committed to the tackle and it was barley late, if at all. The slow motion replay makes it look later than it actually was but it was a perfectly fine tackle, a pretty good one to be fair.

The injury inflicted by a tackle has absolutely no relevance to the card or the punishment during the game. Seymour could have broke his neck (heaven forbid), it would not take away the fact it was a legal tackle by Hughes, although deemed to be slightly late.

I actually thought the ref had a fine game, especially for one of his first Int games.

Let's not forget that Elliot Daly was sent off in the first 5 minutes for taking a man out in the air in the Argentina game in November. It shouldn't matter how far into the game the incident happened, if it's a red card offence, then he should be red carded.

The ref was pretty poor in saying that Hughes should have been yellow carded, good to hear the TMO reign him in.

BigGee wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What injury did he get? I assumed it was a borderline concussion.

I thought it was too. That's an injury in my book. An injury to the brain.

There should be no such thing as a borderline concussion. From a medical perspective if there was any suggestion that he was concussed during his assessment then he should not have come back on. I am surprised that they did bring him back on, he seemed very groggy when he went off.

By letting him back on the pitch the English medics were effectively saying he was not concussed.

They were saying he passed the HIA assessment. That doesn't mean the same as not being concussed.

nathan wrote:

BigGee wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What injury did he get? I assumed it was a borderline concussion.

I thought it was too. That's an injury in my book. An injury to the brain.

There should be no such thing as a borderline concussion. From a medical perspective if there was any suggestion that he was concussed during his assessment then he should not have come back on. I am surprised that they did bring him back on, he seemed very groggy when he went off.

By letting him back on the pitch the English medics were effectively saying he was not concussed.

They were saying he passed the HIA assessment. That doesn't mean the same as not being concussed.

If you prefer, I can re-phrase that.

By letting him back on the pitch, the English medics were saying that he was not displaying any symptoms of concusion, nor was there any suspicion that the injury sustained would lead symptoms to develop. There is a very low threashold of suspicion.

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What injury did he get? I assumed it was a borderline concussion.

I thought it was too. That's an injury in my book. An injury to the brain.

The injury didn't come from being dumped on his back but Browns head smashing him in the face

Brown should have got a red IMO, Daly landed on the top of his back and hit his head hard on the ground. On top on that, Brown then landed on Daly's head giving him a lovely headbutt on the way down.

Daly was allowed back after the HIA, so must have passed it (i.e. no evidence of concussion).. My suspicion is that he found once he was back on the field that his neck or shoulders were too stiff and painful to allow him to carry on (maybe exacerbated by having a chance to cool down).

I thought the yellow was just about the right decision (was closer to a red than no card). Hughes the decision was correct - slightly late tackle, but hit Seymour in the chest and it was that Seymour collided with his own man (one of the Gray's) on the way down that caused the damage.

Actually thought Itoje was more lucky not to be carded for a high tackle on Hogg - hit him around the upper chest but with his arm riding up and ending round Hogg's neck (and swinging him round - I think this was the knock that ultimately led to Hogg going off for his HIA about 5-10 minutes later). My understanding was that the new directive included harsher penalties for this type of tackle, although I don't think the refs have been as strict on this as expected.

BigGee wrote:Outcome should not and is not the determining factor in deciding these things. Serious injuries can be caused by innocuous challenges sometime.

Tommy Seymour was removed by a late tackle that was not deemed high enough to even warrant a card. If outcome was the determining factor there then Hughes should have walked as well.

For what it is worse I think both calls were correct. It was a poor tackle by Brown but Daley did land on his back, he deserved his card and it seriously cost his team. Hughes was late and clumsy but not high.

I am happier with some sort of objective criteria to judge these things rather than some of the lottery decisions we have had in the past.

Not sure about that. It was pointed out in commentary by the Scottish guy (Hastings?) that Seymour was already in trouble from a collision just prior to that. I don't think Seymour's withdrawal was as a result of that tackle.

Re: Itoje. I mentioned somewhere else they had a few slo mo shots of (I think) Wilson running into Itoje in the first half. He might as well have run into a brick wall

Brad71090 wrote:Brown should have got a red IMO, Daly landed on the top of his back and hit his head hard on the ground. On top on that, Brown then landed on Daly's head giving him a lovely headbutt on the way down.

If Im not mistaken, its only a red if a players head or shoulder hit the ground first.

IMO the law is an a$$ anyway. If it's meant to discourage putting players above the horizontal it needs to be uniform for all tackles not just those with a bad result.

dummy_half wrote:Actually thought Itoje was more lucky not to be carded for a high tackle on Hogg - hit him around the upper chest but with his arm riding up and ending round Hogg's neck (and swinging him round - I think this was the knock that ultimately led to Hogg going off for his HIA about 5-10 minutes later). My understanding was that the new directive included harsher penalties for this type of tackle, although I don't think the refs have been as strict on this as expected.

Wayne Barnes I believe talked only rugby tonight with a tackle almost identical to Itoje's. A clumsy out of position arm as a player is going past. As far as I can see, he's gone high, hasn't connected with great force, and hasn't touched his head. Textbook pen no card, unless I'm wrong about the head contact.

No sense treading over old ground. But I'll say it again, I think Brown should have been red carded. I hope the citing commisioner is lenient because he isn't a dirty player. He wanted to put a big hit in and sadly made a hash of it.

Itoje's neck scrag that put Hogg of IMO was a penalty and a Yellow for Either him or Haskell, similar to the one in the Sarries game with Barrett.

I also think Hughes should have seen a yellow too.

However I do feel the ref's interperatation of the breakdown wasn't very good. His decision making was poor but Scotland didn't adapt to his interpratation well at all.

The first Scottish try - the initial 'reach out' for the try was blocked by the foot/ankle of one of the Grays (I think) who was coming round the side and lumbering around the back - Reid then replaced the ball and got it over the line - however - should that have been called offside?

Just wondering.

Hughes was never a yellow.....never, it was hardly a pen.

Scottrf wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Actually thought Itoje was more lucky not to be carded for a high tackle on Hogg - hit him around the upper chest but with his arm riding up and ending round Hogg's neck (and swinging him round - I think this was the knock that ultimately led to Hogg going off for his HIA about 5-10 minutes later). My understanding was that the new directive included harsher penalties for this type of tackle, although I don't think the refs have been as strict on this as expected.

Wayne Barnes I believe talked only rugby tonight with a tackle almost identical to Itoje's. A clumsy out of position arm as a player is going past. As far as I can see, he's gone high, hasn't connected with great force, and hasn't touched his head. Textbook pen no card, unless I'm wrong about the head contact.

It was Haskell that did the damage to Hogg, a strong forearm to the head. That is the one that should have been punished. It is exactly the sort of thing that the new regulations, which as already commented, do not seem to be being enforced, were put in place to prevent!

lostinwales wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Brown was lucky to avoid a red too. However I also think Hughes was lucky to avoid a yellow. The ref didn't have a great game to be fair.

Interested to know on what grounds you think Hughes deserved a yellow card?

Clumsy, late challenge that resulted in an injury to a player. Clear it up any?

Clumsy? No
Late? Marginally

It causing an injury is neither here nor there.

Well personally I would have red carded brown and yellow carded Hughes. But that's not why I'm a referee.

I could sort of have lived with that but a red card so early on would have killed the game (little did we know at the time....) It was also a textbook example of the kind of dump tackle that the authorities are getting very heavy on.

The Hughes hit is much more complicated. Had Seymour had the ball in his hands at the time he was hit nobody would have complained. But he didn't, so it was foul play and it did result in his injury. I am sure the rule book says late hit and penalty - I don't know what space there is for a further sanction in the interpretation of the laws when someone does get hurt like that

Jared Payne got a red card after 3 mins after he tackled a Saracens Alex Goode in the air in a Heineken cup game a few years ago, ruined Ulster's chances of winning that game. But general reaction was that even though it was more clumsy than malicious by Payne, red card from Garces was fair. It was certainly nothing on the par of Brown's assault on Daly on Saturday - that was a nailed on red card and Raynal and the TMO bottled the decision pure and simple, doesn't matter if it's after 2 mins or 72 mins. Assume Brown will be cited and cop a ban