Jones jr

First topic message reminder :

Have any of you guys ever seen a fighter as good as him? I'm not talking about career and longevity.

I was watching old videos this morning and I'm reminded how good he was in his pomp. People couldn't literally touch the guy, never mind beat him.

Imo the best fighter (not career) I have ever seen. Leonard, hagler etc would not beat this guy at 160. If Floyd or Manny were the same weight? Roy would beat them too. Special, special athlete in his time. I wish he retired years ago. If he were in his peak now, 160-175 would be a cake walk for the guy.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Jones' so called comments during the Simon Brown fight which mysteriously don't exist but are often repeated on other boxing forums, there is no way he outweighed Hopkins 17lbs in that fight, he actually states 170lbs. You'll come up with any excuse to dismiss modern boxers Haz and I find it quite absurd.

Michael Spinks and Bob Foster were both massive Light Heavyweights, bigger than Jones as ever was.

You find everything absurd or obtuse or abhorrent - I often wonder why you post here.

For the sake of a pedantic argument, 180, 175, whatever, Jones the middleweight weighed in the day before the fight, allowing him to rehydrate back up to light heavyweight.

Here's Jones on that: "When I used to weigh in at 160 or 158 1/2, whatever I weighed in at, I used to come into the ring at 175." Those comments exist. I merely bothered to listen to them, while you just lazily copied someone else's comment from another forum.

While Spinks boiled down to light heavy, he regularly scaled 172-3 (and lower) on the day of the fight whereas a middleweight like Monzon was nearer 162-3. Jones the middleweight weighed closer to the pre-80s light heavies than the pre-mid-80s middles when he got into the ring. Is that fair or did Jones hover around 162-3 after weighing in just for a lark (like the basketball or the bad rapping) - and just lie about weighing 175 (though secretly telephoning you with the truth)?

Quite how pointing out the fact that changes to weigh in policies changed what it meant to be a middleweight, light heavyweight etc. is "dismissing" modern fighters is baffling. Someone like Alvarez weighs in at 155 and then enters the ring as a light heavyweight. It seems illogical to then pit him against the Leonard who fought Kalule in a mythical match-up (for example).

Alvarez vs Jones the middle would be just about smack on.

24 hour weigh-ins have just moved the weight divisions, the only difference is you have guys who play the severe cut major rehydrate game and guys who prefer not to... so we get more fights where there is a big difference in size on fightnight. But it's not necessarily an advantage.. the bigger guys have severely drained themselves and it can effect them on fight night. So we just have just have an additional factor to consider when evaluating a fight... one we could do without - flipside is there is more fluid protecting the brain so it's 'safer' for those who have cut dramatically.

So, Jones at middle is naturally a bigger guy than hagler at middle. But when we're talking hypothetical matches don't we just factor this in and view it p4p anyway?

milkyboy wrote:24 hour weigh-ins have just moved the weight divisions, the only difference is you have guys who play the severe cut major rehydrate game and guys who prefer not to... so we get more fights where there is a big difference in size on fightnight. But it's not necessarily an advantage.. the bigger guys have severely drained themselves and it can effect them on fight night. So we just have just have an additional factor to consider when evaluating a fight... one we could do without - flipside is there is more fluid protecting the brain so it's 'safer' for those who have cut dramatically.

So, Jones at middle is naturally a bigger guy than hagler at middle. But when we're talking hypothetical matches don't we just factor this in and view it p4p anyway?

You could do an imaginary evening up exercise in your head - it's all imaginary conjecture anyway. Here, though, you have people arguing no-one would have lived with Jones at 160 - when he really wasn't ever a 160 pound fighter in the traditional sense.

You're better off pitting Jones against the pre-80s light heavies, in my book (bearing in mind how well he did with light heavies who'd likely have been small heavies in old money). They were more his natural size....well...the size he fought at....ahem.

These days, fighters use all manner of potions to dehydrate down, and then stick in an IV to rehydrate. It's a different ball game. Some, like James Toney, looked like crap after employing those methods whereas others, like Canelo, employ it to devastating effect.

Can you imagine Canelo Alvarez against Spinks or Foster, though?

Can you imagine Canelo Alvarez against Spinks or Foster, though?

Yes - with Canelo decapitated.

Canelo Alvarez is not the same size as Bob Foster.

You both change the goalposts depending on what criteria suits the old timers, weight is a major issue at Middleweight but irrelevant at Heavyweight when it comes to Joe Louis. I'd wager neither of you know the difference between being a genuine 175lbs and a hyper-hydrated 175lbs.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Canelo Alvarez is not the same size as Bob Foster.

You both change the goalposts depending on what criteria suits the old timers, weight is a major issue at Middleweight but irrelevant at Heavyweight when it comes to Joe Louis. I'd wager neither of you know the difference between being a genuine 175lbs and a hyper-hydrated 175lbs.

You claim quotes don't exist when they do. You deny facts that I then prove to be correct and then accuse me of being absurd? Why would anyone waste their time debating with you?

You haven't proved a single thing, you've quoted internet hearsay and have passed it off as fact, you're clueless.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You haven't proved a single thing, you've quoted internet hearsay and have passed it off as fact, you're clueless.

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbMj-iLmhVY

Watch from 17:50. I'll await your apology.

I'm not hearing 180lbs there Haz.

You boys pish over modern fighters, unless it's the odd one you like.

Don't even know why you follow the sport. Before you get at me, the the only two fighters I rubbish, is Khan and GGG. Though I have lay off the former, because he has shown great ambition.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm not hearing 180lbs there Haz.

Did you hear the 175 I quoted earlier? You've established you're merely trolling here - no need for anyone else to bother taking anything you post seriously.

As is often the case the middle ground is probably the reality here. Ballooning up to 175 post weigh-in is not quite the same as boiling down to make 175 for a same day. But the fact that day before weigh-ins have moved weight classes is indisputable.  I think the difference is probably nearer a modern weight class  than a full traditional one. I.e. Middle becomes super midd  rather than light heavy, but it may be nearer the latter than the former.

I'm sure haz is happy to concede that Floyd is never a modern day welter

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm not hearing 180lbs there Haz.

Did you hear the 175 I quoted earlier? You've established you're merely trolling here - no need for anyone else to bother taking anything you post seriously.

Nope you quoted 180lbs compared to Hopkins 163lbs, Jones states different weights throughout that broadcast and other broadcasts, still waiting for your prove about what you originally said.

milkyboy wrote:As is often the case the middle ground is probably the reality here. Ballooning up to 175 post weigh-in is not quite the same as boiling down to make 175 for a same day. But the fact that day before weigh-ins have moved weight classes is indisputable.  I think the difference is probably nearer a modern weight class  than a full traditional one. I.e. Middle becomes super midd  rather than light heavy, but it may be nearer the latter than the former.

I'm sure haz is happy to concede that Floyd is never a modern day welter

Like Hopkins, Floyd didn't add much weight between the weigh in and the fight. Had he been around in the day of same day weigh ins, he'd have been a welter (which makes drip-gate look even more suspicious, hmmm). Jones, though, would likely have been a super middle, or light heavy if we're taking pre-168 division.

This all seems fairly logical to me, I'm amazed people are getting their knickers in a twist, or viewing it as anti-modern fighters?

I've already quoted that Floyd isn't a modern welter, but why would Haz give him credit? He doesn't like him.

I started reading this thread last night, must admit Jones jr (peak) was before I really started watching boxing. Watched a career highlight reel last night (great watch), obviously i've seen clips before but I got to properly appreciate the skills last night and the guys looks like an absolute boss. Dazzling skills plus KO power, always a good type to watch.

I must admit, when it came to the Ruiz heavyweight fight I was seriously puzzled. Middleweight to Heavyweight? Something doesn't sit right with me about that. Appreciate he obviously boiled himself down to middle but winning a heavyweight world title is just bizarre to me.

It shows boxings weight divisions up badly IMO, it's alright saying he was a beast at middle but when you're capable of beating heavyweights, it's no wonder.

I have never ever speculated about boxers on PEDS, EVER, but if I was to I would have to start with Jones Jr. Something doesn't sit right with me about how he moved through those divisions over the years.

I reckon loads of boxers use peds. But without proof, can't really say much else.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm not hearing 180lbs there Haz.

Did you hear the 175 I quoted earlier? You've established you're merely trolling here - no need for anyone else to bother taking anything you post seriously.

Nope you quoted 180lbs compared to Hopkins 163lbs, Jones states different weights throughout that broadcast and other broadcasts, still waiting for your prove about what you originally said.

I originally posted "something like 180". I then quoted Jones directly (which is then evidenced in that video). You've made your usual assertions and thrown your usual insults throughout the thread, it's trolling and little more. I don't have time for it.

hazharrison wrote:

milkyboy wrote:As is often the case the middle ground is probably the reality here. Ballooning up to 175 post weigh-in is not quite the same as boiling down to make 175 for a same day. But the fact that day before weigh-ins have moved weight classes is indisputable.  I think the difference is probably nearer a modern weight class  than a full traditional one. I.e. Middle becomes super midd  rather than light heavy, but it may be nearer the latter than the former.

I'm sure haz is happy to concede that Floyd is never a modern day welter

Like Hopkins, Floyd didn't add much weight between the weigh in and the fight. Had he been around in the day of same day weigh ins, he'd have been a welter (which makes drip-gate look even more suspicious, hmmm). Jones, though, would likely have been a super middle, or  light heavy if we're taking pre-168 division.

This all seems fairly logical to me, I'm amazed people are getting their knickers in a twist, or viewing it as anti-modern fighters?

I know what Floyd added on between fights - I had to look it up and dedicate half a thread to it a while back to prove to some of you that he wasn't a fully fledged welter by modern day standards !

And Yep it's exactly why drip gate is extremely suspicious...

AdamT wrote:I reckon loads of boxers use peds. But without proof, can't really say much else.

Agree, I just try never to get on the accusation trains. And admittedly I watched his whole career in the space of about 45 minutes so I my knowledge is limited, to say the least. Just seems ridiculous that you can go from Middle to Heavy like that. I'm assuming that's never been done since and I'd be surprised if it ever was!

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm not hearing 180lbs there Haz.

Did you hear the 175 I quoted earlier? You've established you're merely trolling here - no need for anyone else to bother taking anything you post seriously.

Nope you quoted 180lbs compared to Hopkins 163lbs, Jones states different weights throughout that broadcast and other broadcasts, still waiting for your prove about what you originally said.

I originally posted "something like 180". I then quoted Jones directly (which is then evidenced in that video). You've made your usual assertions and thrown your usual insults throughout the thread, it's trolling and little more. I don't have time for it.  

No what you did was directly quoted from a thread on Boxing scene that stated he weighed 180lbs against Hopkins 163lbs of which there is no evidence. I said he weighed in about 170lbs during his Middleweight career which he also states during the same broadcast.

You do a lot of research for someone who doesn't care for it Haz.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm not hearing 180lbs there Haz.

Did you hear the 175 I quoted earlier? You've established you're merely trolling here - no need for anyone else to bother taking anything you post seriously.

Nope you quoted 180lbs compared to Hopkins 163lbs, Jones states different weights throughout that broadcast and other broadcasts, still waiting for your prove about what you originally said.

I originally posted "something like 180". I then quoted Jones directly (which is then evidenced in that video). You've made your usual assertions and thrown your usual insults throughout the thread, it's trolling and little more. I don't have time for it.  

No what you did was directly quoted from a thread on Boxing scene that stated he weighed 180lbs against Hopkins 163lbs of which there is no evidence. I said he weighed in about 170lbs during his Middleweight career which he also states during the same broadcast.

You do a lot of research for someone who doesn't care for it Haz.

At which point of that broadcast does he state he weighed 170?

No? Can't find it? He does say this, however:

"I was so much bigger than Bernard that I knew I could beat Bernard because of my size..."

EX7EY wrote:

AdamT wrote:I reckon loads of boxers use peds. But without proof, can't really say much else.

Agree, I just try never to get on the accusation trains. And admittedly I watched his whole career in the space of about 45 minutes so I my knowledge is limited, to say the least. Just seems ridiculous that you can go from Middle to Heavy like that. I'm assuming that's never been done since and I'd be surprised if it ever was!

Jones did test positive for an anabolic steroid, however, drug testing protocol was so lax in the 90s, the issue was largely fudged.

Drug testing was lax in the 70s and 80s too.

AdamT wrote:Drug testing was lax in the 70s and 80s too.

But Jones didn't fight in the 70s or 80s...hence my point....

and it's lax now.

So does Jones state on that video what he weighted when he fought Hoppo? I'm confused now (admittedly it doesn't take much)

Derbymanc wrote:and it's lax now.

So does Jones state on that video what he weighted when he fought Hoppo? I'm confused now (admittedly it doesn't take much)

I'm not surprised mate, it's like a bad PMQs on here some days. This is the direct quote (and only reference):

"When I used to weigh in at 160 or 158 1/2, whatever I weighed in at, I used to come into the ring at about 175."

He also said he beat Hopkins because he was much bigger and that Hopkins could fight at 154 (as he'd weighed 166 in-ring against Brown, which was about what Roy would expect a junior middle to weigh in-ring).

hazharrison wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:and it's lax now.

So does Jones state on that video what he weighted when he fought Hoppo? I'm confused now (admittedly it doesn't take much)

I'm not surprised mate, it's like a bad PMQs on here some days.

Thank heavens you're on here to give us an objective view.........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:and it's lax now.

So does Jones state on that video what he weighted when he fought Hoppo? I'm confused now (admittedly it doesn't take much)

I'm not surprised mate, it's like a bad PMQs on here some days.

Thank heavens you're on here to give us an objective view.........

OBJECTION!

Thoroughly great stuff,butHaz,please tell us the fights  when Jones crossed his feet?!I don't actually remember him doing that at ALL.I thought that his balance was superb,and yes,believed him to be the complete fighter.Naz's career coincided for a while and Roy saw him as a "very beautiful" fighter.Those two guys briefly looked like being the template.Seems that all that most boxers wanted to emulate however was the 'hands down' bit!

If we reverse the argument over weigh ins, and wonder what divisions many 80's fighters would have fought in if they had the benefit of day before weigh ins, how do you think that would have changed history?

Seeing as how fighters can boil down as much as 20lbs for a weigh in, can you imagine Leonard being a light weight champion. Hagler, a welterweight champ etc..

Someone like Hearns, with an extra day to rehydrate could have stayed at welterweight for a few more years than he did.

andygf wrote:Thoroughly great stuff,butHaz,please tell us the fights  when Jones crossed his feet?!I don't actually remember him doing that at ALL.I thought that his balance was superb,and yes,believed him to be the complete fighter.Naz's career coincided for a while and Roy saw him as a "very beautiful" fighter.Those two guys briefly looked like being the template.Seems that all that most boxers wanted to emulate however was the 'hands down' bit!

It was usually when Roy moved right, he'd step over with his left foot first (rather than moving around with his right foot first). He did it in the Calzaghe fight (with Joe being southpaw). You had to catch him to capitalise, though (and that was some feat in itself). Usually, he held a wide stance and leapt in with punches (which is also a big no no, yet Roy made it work to one hell of an effect).

I remember being beguiled by Roy and Naz - they did seem like a new breed of boxer back in the day, however, once Roy's speed waned, his technique was lacking. Naz meanwhile regressed after abandoning Ingle in my view. He hadn't slowed by the time he fought Barrera, he'd merely become lazy and reliant on his power.

Atila wrote:If we reverse the argument over weigh ins, and wonder what divisions many 80's fighters would have fought in if they had the benefit of day before weigh ins, how do you think that would have changed history?

Seeing as how fighters can boil down as much as 20lbs for a weigh in, can you imagine Leonard being a light weight champion. Hagler, a welterweight champ etc..

Someone like Hearns, with an extra day to rehydrate could have stayed at welterweight for a few more years than he did.

With up to 36 hours to rehydrate you'd imagine Monzon and Hagler could possibly have made 154, however, middleweight was the more glamorous division and so maybe they'd have fought there anyway? Could they have made welterweight and then rehydrated up to 162-3 pounds? It doesn't seem possible but that's what a lot of modern fighters do these days, so who knows?

Trying to think of a fighter who lost a few big fights on the scales back in the day (who theoretically would have benefitted from the change) but I'm struggling?

I think Hagler could have made 154lbs anyway Haz. He weighed under 157lbs when he fought Duran.

whilst I don't think anyone would try and make a case for all time ranking, at either weight, do you agree there are strong arguments that Benn and Eubank would both give a decent showing head to head against RJJ at both 160 or 168?

suppose it depends what you mean by decent showing mighty. Jones has said he'd be wary of eubank because of his unpredictability, eubank has said there was no way he'd fight jones. Can;t see past a roy landslide points in that one.

Benn rarely didn't put up a decent showing, but i think he just gets outclassed here. What Benn did do was put a spanner in the works of a jones mcclellan superfight... which was a mouthwatering prospect.

A lot of people think jones is a shoe-in for that and that gman was just a banger. Some truth in the fact that he became an all out banger during his pro career, but he had more to his game than that. He had an amateur win over jones i what was meant to be a bit of a war. Jones points is the logical bet at pro but no gimmee.

Benn is a favourite of mine but I think he'd have been wiped out by Roy. Benn was accused of having a dodgy chin but he could take a decent wallop. He had stamina problems as a middleweight and also struggled with speed. Mauro Galvano (a feather fisted Italian) almost sent Benn to sleep with a jab in the dying embers of their rematch.

Danny Ray Perez (another feather fisted foe) had Benn all over the show with a quick combination (albeit a Benn who was shot to bits after the McClellan war).

I can imagine Roy turning his legs to jelly with a highlight reel flurry and he'd lower the boom soon after. Had they fought when they came closest to a deal (round about when Benn fought Nardiello and Roy fought Thornton) it would have been ugly.

milkyboy wrote:suppose it depends what you mean by decent showing mighty. Jones has said he'd be wary of eubank because of his unpredictability, eubank has said there was no way he'd fight jones. Can;t see past a roy landslide points in that one.

Benn rarely didn't put up a decent showing, but i think he just gets outclassed here. What Benn did do was put a spanner in the works of a jones mcclellan superfight... which was a mouthwatering prospect.

A lot of people think jones is a shoe-in for that and that gman was just a banger. Some truth in the fact that he became an all out banger during his pro career, but he had more to his game than that. He had an amateur win over jones i what was meant to be a bit of a war. Jones points is the logical bet at pro but no gimmee.

Very fair point, "good showing" is too generic, what I meant by this was "better than anyone else did at either MW or SMW"