2017 and 2018 World Snooker Championship Thread

[CaledonianCraig]

First topic message reminder :

I am surprised no topic up here yet for the World Championship so here goes a few days too late.

Mark Selby looks like a good bet for a third world title. Where will the main challenge come from? Perhaps Judd Trump, John Higgins, Ding Junhui and Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Selby looked very good in his opening match as did Higgins. O'Sullivan's mental demons have resurfaced again in time for The Crucible and will need to improve to win again.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

Is he Peter Ebdon levels of bad? Haven't watched much snooker in the past couple of years.

[CaledonianCraig]

What poppycock.

Snooker has NEVER ever been about speed of play. Players can play at whatever speed they are comfortable with. They don't play or have to play to a speed the opponent is comfortable with. In any case if the suggestion is that other players cannot cope with Selby's style of play (quick or slow) then it depicts the modern day players as mentally weak. In Hendry's day there were several much slower players he played against and could beat no problem so cannot see Selby's success being down to his pace he plays. The mere fact is that he is the best player in the world at the moment by some distance.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Is he Peter Ebdon levels of bad? Haven't watched much snooker in the past couple of years.

He's not that bad but I think Ebdon grinding O'Sullivan down years ago was the catalyst for him doing similar in the 2014 final, I lost a lot of respect for him after that.

[Beer]

I'd strongly disagree, taking your time when the shot requires is it is one thing but deliberately playing slowly is something else, it isn't him taking his time it's him trying to disrupt the other player. It gets called good match play for no discernible reason.

I agree with this. Selby fans would perhaps call it 'methodical', but it's slow play. He does it on the last black at the end of the frame, with a break that makes no difference to man nor beast.

He does suck the life out of frames. That's part of his game, i'd put him up there with Peter Ebdon.

Whether it's something that the rulemakers need to look at or not, I don't know. I think Marco Fu said they should bring in a shot clock, which I don't agree with, but, on the flipside, it would help the more fluent players.

It works in pool.

[88Chris05]

Whether it's something that the rulemakers need to look at or not, I don't know. I think Marco Fu said they should bring in a shot clock, which I don't agree with, but, on the flipside, it would help the more fluent players.

It works in pool.

Why should the more fluent players be prioritised?

I'm not a particularly big Selby fan, but a lot of the criticism of him is ridiculous. He plays no slower than a host of other top players. He plays at a steady pace, but not a snail's one. I think the fact that he's done Ronnie over in a few high-profile finals (the only man to do so in the past decade or so) is the real problem here; too often it seems to be that O'Sullivan, who has consistently acted like a bigger Mr Winklechops than Selby ever could in his twenty-five year career, is the measuring stick for absolutely everything in the game. Hence, when O'Sullivan loses people don't like it and start equating playing slower than O'Sullivan with playing slow per se, and suggestions that Selby must have 'cheated' to beat him.

Even if Selby was as slow as some of his critics say, it's still not an argument I'd have that much sympathy with. Same when I hear boxing fans moaning about a fighter not standing in front of a guy and wildly exchanging when his advantage is defence or movement, or football fins whinging about a team playing defensively against them. They are all legitimate tactics, and if you want to be a top player / fighter / team you have to be able to take these kind of challenges on and win. A world class snooker player needs to master all kinds of opponents; if some of the other guys on the circuit right now can't do that, then that's their problem, not Selby's.

I just find it a bit feeble when fanatics of O'Sullivan, Trump, Robertson etc put their inability to out-perform Selby down to the speed of Selby's play. Maybe he's just too good for them at the moment.

[temporary21]

There's a link isn't there
A guy beats Ronnie o Sullivan at the crucible and suddenly they get the mantra of being slow. Suddenly the rules need changing

Are you sure it's specifically mark that's the problem?

The key here is that snooker isn't pool. It's harder and more methodical. It's a naturally slow game

What's being proposed is essentially to remove the tactical/ safety event of snooker and just turn it into a large game of pool

In that case. Is it not reasonable to suggest that maybe snooker isn't for you? It's certainly not for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's fundamentally wrong

[Beer]

I'm not saying they should, Chris, it's just the other side of the coin.

I disagree that it's a Ronnie bias here. I'm a huge Ronnie fan, and i'm happy to admit that Ronnie crumbled mentally against Selby, because Selby ground him down, and played better safety. I would say that part of Ronnie's problem since then is that he's tried to add that into his game and it's backfired. Against Ding there were a couple of occasions where the pot was just as tough as the safety and that's when you need to take the risk, that's what Ding did so well against Ronnie and Selby, just came up short.

The issue is whether there is an overall problem in the game. You know, going back to Ebdon's break of 12 in 5 minutes. I agree that to a point, Selby has mastered each of his opponents, but, if he knows they struggle against slow players, is he exploiting that? Is that gamesmanship?

Ding, Higgins, proved that Selby isn't head and shoulders above everyone. What it did prove is how poor the second half of the draw was compared to the top. Ronnie, Ding, Selby, Fu, Robertson, Wenbo in one half was part of the reason Trump was favourite.

[temporary21]

Again
Go watch Selby 143 break. If you don't like that. Then maybe it's not snooker that you like

[Beer]

Again
Go watch Selby 143 break. If you don't like that. Then maybe it's not snooker that you like

Or watch Ronnie's 146, or Higgin's 141.

[temporary21]

I do agree

It wasnt slow play that beat Ronnie. It was Selbys superior tactical game

It's Ronnies fault that he couldn't handle that and concentrate not the games fault. Which then needs changing to protect him and other fluent players from having to grind it out in long formats

[temporary21]

What's your point beer?
Marks as fluent as all of them. That's exactly the point. He's just stronger at the gritty side right now

[CaledonianCraig]

Whether it's something that the rulemakers need to look at or not, I don't know. I think Marco Fu said they should bring in a shot clock, which I don't agree with, but, on the flipside, it would help the more fluent players.

It works in pool.

Why should the more fluent players be prioritised?  

I'm not a particularly big Selby fan, but a lot of the criticism of him is ridiculous. He plays no slower than a host of other top players. He plays at a steady pace, but not a snail's one. I think the fact that he's done Ronnie over in a few high-profile finals (the only man to do so in the past decade or so) is the real problem here; too often it seems to be that O'Sullivan, who has consistently acted like a bigger Mr Winklechops than Selby ever could in his twenty-five year career, is the measuring stick for absolutely everything in the game. Hence, when O'Sullivan loses people don't like it and start equating playing slower than O'Sullivan with playing slow per se, and suggestions that Selby must have 'cheated' to beat him.

Even if Selby was as slow as some of his critics say, it's still not an argument I'd have that much sympathy with. Same when I hear boxing fans moaning about a fighter not standing in front of a guy and wildly exchanging when his advantage is defence or movement, or football fins whinging about a team playing defensively against them. They are all legitimate tactics, and if you want to be a top player / fighter / team you have to be able to take these kind of challenges on and win. A world class snooker player needs to master all kinds of opponents; if some of the other guys on the circuit right now can't do that, then that's their problem, not Selby's.

I just find it a bit feeble when fanatics of O'Sullivan, Trump, Robertson etc put their inability to out-perform Selby down to the speed of Selby's play. Maybe he's just too good for them at the moment.

Absolutely spot on.

I would add that those that get bothered by slow play have a short attention span. For me I enjoy the differing paces of players, the different way players go about accumulating frames and break building. I am not one of those who has wet dreams over a player because he plays quick - whoopeedoo.

[temporary21]

Anyway it's fine to agree to disagree
Just remember that snooker is naturally a slower game, so complaints that it's slow is perhaps missing the point. It's not for everyone

A game shouldn't have to change because people don't naturally like it

Selby doesn't play particularly slowly, if he was taking 2 mins a shot I'd understand but amongst the balls he's as good as anyone

[CaledonianCraig]

Anyway it's fine to agree to disagree
Just remember that snooker is naturally a slower game, so complaints that it's slow is perhaps missing the point. It's not for everyone

A game shouldn't have to change because people don't naturally like it

Selby doesn't play particularly slowly, if he was taking 2 mins a shot I'd understand but amongst the balls he's as good as anyone

Precisely. And like the commentators very correctly point out - big breaks and quick frames are great but so are the safety battles played with much thought and at a slower pace.

[VTR]

I don't know what the complaint is - Selby plays good snooker, he is the best safety player out there but also knocks in some great pots and is an excellent break builder

Where have people got the idea that Snooker is a fast game, unless they've only ever heard of and watched Ronnie?

[Beer]

What's your point beer?
Marks as fluent as all of them. That's exactly the point. He's just stronger at the gritty side right now

That you weren't really giving any context to the break or why watch it?

Anyway, whilst I disagree that Selby isn't slow, he is tactically and mentally stronger at the moment.

As you alluded to, the game shouldn't have to change because people don't like it. I don't like watching Selby, that's a personal preference. I'm not ignorant enough to play down his ability on the snooker table.

Whilst Ronnie is box office, sells tickets, at the moment he isn't the best, that honour is Selby's, and ultimately it's about winning the tournaments, not turning up to wave at the fans.

[temporary21]

That was the point

Go see it. See what you think against the other big breaks of the tournament

[Beer]

I watched it, still preferred Ronnie's 146.

[temporary21]

Not the point again. Was it not good? Some of the last positional shots were magic

Hendry called it the best break he'd commentated on.

Are you sure it's not Ronnie you like? Rather than snooker

[Beer]

Oh, absolutely, from where the balls were, it was superbly constructed. As i've said, I don't question his ability as a player/

[Josiah Maiestas]

Don't like Ronnie one bit but it's true about Selby purposely trying to disrupt the opponent by taking forever which results in the opponent feeling anxious and out of rhythm. It's a tactic Nadal was getting away with in tennis before the shot clock was enforced. Selby isn't the only slow player but he is one of the worst, up there with McLeod and a fraction behind Ebdon.

[temporary21]

So what about playing too fast to try and rush and intimidate your opponent then? I take it that's cheating too, and must be enforced to slow it down a bit.

If a sportsman can't take someone not playing at their pace, they've no right to be one

[temporary21]

Let's face it though. That's not why people struggle with Selby/Nadal is it? It's because they are great/ legendary players who are a match for anyone. Sometimes just don't want to give them credit for that

[CaledonianCraig]

So what about playing too fast to try and rush and intimidate your opponent then? I take it that's cheating too, and must be enforced to slow it down a bit.

If a sportsman can't take someone not playing at their pace, they've no right to be one

Exactly. It is a damning indictment on ANY player who cannot handle the pace another player plays at. It never bothered Stephen Hendry who had the legendarily slow Terry Griffiths to play against but it never bothered him.

[Hammersmith harrier]

It's a damning indictment on any player who deliberately slows down in an attempt to disrupt his opponent which is what Selby does, he's not a naturally slow player like some. I've no interest in comparisons to the early 90's, the game has moved on since then for the better.

[CaledonianCraig]

I've no interest in comparisons to the early 90's, the game has moved on since then for the better.

Well obviously it hasn't. As we have people claiming their GOAT is put off by Selby's pace of play. Yet Hendry had to put up with Terry Griffiths and it never phased him in anyway. That either says Hendry was unflappable regardless of playing one of the slowest players ever and never let him bother his performance or that todays hotshots are mentally inferior not being able to cope with a player who plays quicker than Terry Griffiths ever did.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I don't care about the early 90's Craig, it's completely irrelevant to now and it's not just about O'Sullivan, it's about his pace of play yesterday and last year against Ding, it's gamesmanship plain and simple.

[CaledonianCraig]

I don't care about the early 90's Craig, it's completely irrelevant to now and it's not just about O'Sullivan, it's about his pace of play yesterday and last year against Ding, it's gamesmanship plain and simple.

In your opinion. Scour newspapers, sports websites and listen to snooker players past and present and you won't find one that calls it gamesmanship. Odd don't you think? They know far more than us about the sport AND before you claim players don't speak ill of others - they do.

As for what the experts say well Stephen Hendry has lauded Selby saying he will be at the top of the sport for years to come and is way ahead of anyone else. He says Selby has the best screw shots he has ever seen. High praise from the GOAT indeed. Likewise praise was high from the other pundits as well.

[Josiah Maiestas]

Even when Selby plays a nice screw shot or makes a high century break, there is no flair in his shots. His centuries are littered with 99% safety in mind. Look what happened when he wasn't trying to ruin frames he was behind 10-4. Then when he got scared he played ultra slow and hoped it would affect Higgins' rhythm which it did.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Even when Selby plays a nice screw shot or makes a high century break, there is no flair in his shots. His centuries are littered with 99% safety in mind. Look what happened when he wasn't trying to ruin frames he was behind 10-4. Then when he got scared he played ultra slow and hoped it would affect Higgins' rhythm which it did.

Spot on.

Craig is unable to differentiate between playing slowly and deliberately playing slowly trying to affect your opponent. There have been numerous debates on the BBC about slow play and whether a shot clock should be introduced but the problem with that the more vocal voices played years ago when it was the norm.

[CaledonianCraig]

Even when Selby plays a nice screw shot or makes a high century break, there is no flair in his shots. His centuries are littered with 99% safety in mind. Look what happened when he wasn't trying to ruin frames he was behind 10-4. Then when he got scared he played ultra slow and hoped it would affect Higgins' rhythm which it did.

Spot on.

Craig is unable to differentiate between playing slowly and deliberately playing slowly trying to affect your opponent. There have been numerous debates on the BBC about slow play and whether a shot clock should be introduced but the problem with that the more vocal voices played years ago when it was the norm.

Still awaiting players of today or pundits outing Selby for what you call blatant gamesmanship. Seems this is a perpetuated myth from heartbroken Ronnie fanboys.

[Beer]

Even when Selby plays a nice screw shot or makes a high century break, there is no flair in his shots. His centuries are littered with 99% safety in mind. Look what happened when he wasn't trying to ruin frames he was behind 10-4. Then when he got scared he played ultra slow and hoped it would affect Higgins' rhythm which it did.

Spot on.

Craig is unable to differentiate between playing slowly and deliberately playing slowly trying to affect your opponent. There have been numerous debates on the BBC about slow play and whether a shot clock should be introduced but the problem with that the more vocal voices played years ago when it was the norm.

Still awaiting players of today or pundits outing Selby for what you call blatant gamesmanship. Seems this is a perpetuated myth from heartbroken Ronnie fanboys.

World number one Mark Selby said he wanted to "shut the critics up" after beating Ronnie O'Sullivan in a high-quality UK Championship final.

The 33-year-old world champion made three century breaks and six further half-centuries to win 10-7 and claim the title for the second time in York.

But his gritty style of play has often been questioned by viewers and pundits, who claim he is too slow and boring.

[CaledonianCraig]

Hmm viewers = Ronnie fanboys. Pundits? Well did you watch any of this tournament? I saw none and I mean none of Hendry, Davis (13 world titles between them), Doherty, Thorne, Taylor and Parrott saying anything but hearty praise for him. Higgins was beaten by Selby and never heard anything but praise for him.

[Beer]

So because it wasn't exclusive to this tournament it never happened?

Virgo has criticised him previously, as has Graeme Dott, and a few other pro's. Infact, one of the comments made about Selby's game was that he was too anxious not to lose than to actually take control of a match.

[temporary21]

Why does it matter so much to you that everyone should dislike Selby the way you do? Or nadal for that matter

Is it because someone you dislike is getting deserved credit from most experts? That'll happen all the time
You'll never see how good he is because you refuse to take off the dislike filter you have for him

[Beer]

Are you talking to me?

[CaledonianCraig]

So because it wasn't exclusive to this tournament it never happened?

Virgo has criticised him previously, as has Graeme Dott, and a few other pro's. Infact, one of the comments made about Selby's game was that he was too anxious not to lose than to actually take control of a match.

I watch snooker regularly and aside from random comments from Ronnie I can't find any others about Mark Selby that say it is any form of gamesmanship. If Virgo has criticised him I'd imagine it was not in a way accusing him of gamesmanship though as you and others are.

[Beer]

So because it wasn't exclusive to this tournament it never happened?

Virgo has criticised him previously, as has Graeme Dott, and a few other pro's. Infact, one of the comments made about Selby's game was that he was too anxious not to lose than to actually take control of a match.

I watch snooker regularly and aside from random comments from Ronnie I can't find any others about Mark Selby. If Virgo has criticised him I'd imagine it was not in a way accusing him of gamesmanship though as you and others are.

The issue is whether there is an overall problem in the game. You know, going back to Ebdon's break of 12 in 5 minutes. I agree that to a point, Selby has mastered each of his opponents, but, if he knows they struggle against slow players, is he exploiting that? Is that gamesmanship?

Didn't accuse him of it, I asked the question as to whether it should be considered as that.

[CaledonianCraig]

So because it wasn't exclusive to this tournament it never happened?

Virgo has criticised him previously, as has Graeme Dott, and a few other pro's. Infact, one of the comments made about Selby's game was that he was too anxious not to lose than to actually take control of a match.

I watch snooker regularly and aside from random comments from Ronnie I can't find any others about Mark Selby. If Virgo has criticised him I'd imagine it was not in a way accusing him of gamesmanship though as you and others are.

The issue is whether there is an overall problem in the game. You know, going back to Ebdon's break of 12 in 5 minutes. I agree that to a point, Selby has mastered each of his opponents, but, if he knows they struggle against slow players, is he exploiting that? Is that gamesmanship?

Didn't accuse him of it, I asked the question as to whether it should be considered as that.

Of course it isn't gamesmanship.

Should we question the intricate passing games of the great Brazil side because it didn't conform to a more direct kick and rush-style? Of course not.

Should we question a serve-orientated tennis player's game because it makes life difficult for players who prefer baseline tennis? Of course not.

My point is that every player has their own ways and means of winning at sport. It is no way shape or form is it gamesmanship. Sport is all about competing against different opponents and different styles. Some styles may be more aesthetically pleasing on the eye to some but not as successful. Take your choice whether you like the styles or not by all means as everyone has preferences but labelling one style as gamesmanship is a step too far.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Your Ronnie fanboy jibes show your maturity level to be honest Craig, it is 100% gamesmanship when it's a tactic done purely to disrupt his opponent.

[CaledonianCraig]

it is 100% gamesmanship when it's a tactic done purely to disrupt his opponent.

You hang onto that if it makes you feel better. I'll trust my own views and that of the snooker fraternity.

John Higgins: "Mark is granite, just granite," said Higgins. "In the second session I had my chances, I missed a pink into the middle and I could have gone 9-3 ahead.

"That was a big, big frame. Mark cleared up under extreme pressure. He is a fantastic champion.

"It has been an unbelievable tournament, I gave everything. I came up short to a great champion. I'm proud of myself but he was too good on the day."

Steve Davis: ''When we look at the quality of players that are potential winners here, to think there is a dominant character forcing his way through is amazing.

Selby is an exceptional player and exceptional match player. It is going to take some young player coming through who takes every part of his game and becomes stronger to knock him off his perch.

We're close to the ceiling of performance now.''

Stephen Hendry: “The way he plays the game he plays like a winner.

“The stamina his opponents have to show and the patience they have to show to beat him is incredible.

“I played him a few times. He was a great player then but even better now.

“He’s got that aura. That aura of someone that goes to the table and knows he will win.

“It’s something I had in the ‘90s. He doesn’t lose any frames in a match.”

“It’s just that confidence. That self belief that you know by a mile that you’re the best player.”

Ronnie O'Sullivan: '''He's the best player in the world by a long way''

Still hunting for one player to say Selby resorts to gamesmanship.

[temporary21]

Always comes down to put downs doesn't it...


That's usually a good time to end it

See you all next year for the same convo..

[88Chris05]

Years on end as the season-ending number one, three world titles in four years, three Masters gongs, a pair of UK Championships, a stack of other ranking events, almost 500 centuries. All from a guy who apparently plays scared, can't win unless he 'ruins frames', isn't even aggressive when making total clearances etc.

Imagine how much he'd win if he was actually any good.

[Beer]

So because it wasn't exclusive to this tournament it never happened?

Virgo has criticised him previously, as has Graeme Dott, and a few other pro's. Infact, one of the comments made about Selby's game was that he was too anxious not to lose than to actually take control of a match.

I watch snooker regularly and aside from random comments from Ronnie I can't find any others about Mark Selby. If Virgo has criticised him I'd imagine it was not in a way accusing him of gamesmanship though as you and others are.

The issue is whether there is an overall problem in the game. You know, going back to Ebdon's break of 12 in 5 minutes. I agree that to a point, Selby has mastered each of his opponents, but, if he knows they struggle against slow players, is he exploiting that? Is that gamesmanship?

Didn't accuse him of it, I asked the question as to whether it should be considered as that.

Of course it isn't gamesmanship.

Should we question the intricate passing games of the great Brazil side because it didn't conform to a more direct kick and rush-style? Of course not.

Should we question a serve-orientated tennis player's game because it makes life difficult for players who prefer baseline tennis? Of course not.

My point is that every player has their own ways and means of winning at sport. It is no way shape or form is it gamesmanship. Sport is all about competing against different opponents and different styles. Some styles may be more aesthetically pleasing on the eye to some but not as successful. Take your choice whether you like the styles or not by all means as everyone has preferences but labelling one style as gamesmanship is a step too far.

And again, it was a question posed. You're awfully defensive and edgy for an internet discussion.

As for your point about who said what after the match, I wouldn't use that as basis for your argument. Higgins isn't going to stand in public and say he's an absolute nightmare to play against, slows the game down etc, etc.

He's an exceptional match player, that is absolutely correct. Ian Poulter was like that in golf. Couldn't win tournaments, but was a class act in the WGC Match Play and the Ryder Cup.

[temporary21]

I think dittos the word here

Maybe it's time to drop it?

[Beer]

The 'Ronnie fanboy' comments aside, it's actually been an interesting debate.

[VTR]

I've enjoyed the debate - this section is a graveyard most of the time so nice to see some activity on here!

[Hammersmith harrier]

I'm not for one second disregarding Selby's ability, he's a brilliant break builder when he puts his mind to it, it's just the manner he goes about things in general I don't like. On the flip side you have Judd Trump who has zero resolve, seems more intent on people thinking he's good than actually applying himself most of the time.

[88Chris05]

Agree there, Hammersmith. It's disappointing how Trump hasn't really kicked on from that 2011 World final followed by winning the UK a few months later. He's bagged plenty of titles since, but his showings at the big three events have been pretty average these past few years, relatively speaking.

Do you think he'll ever get over the line at the Worlds? I personally still think he will at some stage, and at 27 he's still younger than any world champion has been at the time of lifting the trophy since Murphy in 2005. But I just wonder if the pressure mounting every year might start to get to him soon. If you'd have said at the end of 2011 that we'd still be waiting for his next 'major' almost six years later I'd never have believed you.

He's a frightening potter and devastating break builder, but his safety and tactical play doesn't seem any better now than it was back then. Historically, when big-time potters who go for everything get on a hot streak they can just have a two-week period where it all comes together and they make safety play almost an irrelevance as they blow everyone away, ala Joe Johnson in 1986 and as Trump almost did in 2011. But it's harder and harder to win like that now, given the standard.

As I said, I still think he'll get there one day as I think this golden era might just be eroding slightly in the next two or three years, but I suspect even if he does he might end his career with a reputation for being an underachiever.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I can't see him winning the worlds any time soon, there are too many players who have his number over the longer matches; Selby, O'Sullivan, Ding and oddly Hawkins would all be big favourites against him for me. His stylish play covers up a lot of deficiencies in his play, in 2013 O'Sullivan played him off the table every which way possible and that defeat always seems to play on his mind, was meant to be a changing of the guard at the time.

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