Was defeat actually a victory for Klitschko?

Klitschko lost... but was this defeat a victory for him. He had dominated the HW scene for a decade and even though he was the best HW he was labelled as boring, and his fights were labelled as boring.

Was this the greatest fight he has been involved in? Even though Klitschko lost how amazing is it for him to be involved in such an entertaining fight and made even more great that he was doing it at the age of 41 after being out of the ring for nearly 2 years against the current undefeated champion who was the massive favourite and who has a perfect record of 18 wins all by KO.

Will this fight cement Wlad's legacy as one of the greatest HWs? He came back from a brutal knockdown early in the fight, showed great character and strength and every fan felt that their money was well spent on the fight.

For me even though he lost the fight I think he came out of this very well. A 41 year old man who has not been in the ring for nearly 2 years put up such a great showing against the current champ. What a great fight.

Reminds me a little of rocky balboa where even though rocky lost, he put up a great fight and pushed the champ all the way to the end and showed that even at his old age he could still put up a fight.

No. Wad has enjoyed an undeserved renaissance recently, but let's be honest he has lost by 5 KOs, and ouptpointd by Fury. The best win he has is against a blown up cruiserweight . If AJ had let his hands go earlier tonight he could have had a much easier night. Wad is a top 20 he but that's it .

No.

He fought well and I won't knock his career.

He performed well for a 41yr old but, ultimately, lost to a novice, by world levels.

horizontalhero wrote:No. Wad has enjoyed an undeserved renaissance recently, but let's be honest he has lost by 5 KOs,  and  ouptpointd by Fury.  The best win he has is against a blown up cruiserweight . If AJ had let his  hands go earlier tonight he could have had a  much easier night. Wad is a top 20 he but that's it .

youre entitled to your views but this thread wasn't really about the quality of opponents wlad has faced in the past. It was about whether him being 41 and being out of the ring for 2 years facing AJ who was the massive favourite with 19 wins all by ko and the fact it was so close and so entertaining, whether wlad will get a lot of credit for the fight and even though it was a loss it will look good for him in the future.

Happytravelling wrote:No.

He fought well and I won't knock his career.

He performed well for a 41yr old but, ultimately, lost to a novice, by world levels.

I wouldn't call being a world champion a novice but that's just my view.

I don't often venture onto these boards. In fact in 5 years it's a very rare occurrence, but for me as a boxing novice tonight marked a changing of the guard. Should Klitschko have won from round 6 onwards? Yes. 
But importantly he didn't. Joshua held in, Joshua ground through it and for me that's something that cements him as an all time great, he dug in when for many the only result was a loss yet despite that he won.

I dont think it was a great moral victory for Klitschko. I think in some ways he snatched defeat fro the jaws of victory by being unwilling and unable to finish Joshua off in rounds 6-9. Not a great heavyweight for me. A methodical and professional one that competed in a barren division. Its a better fight for him to bow out with by going out on his sheild rather than the limp performance against Fury. I thought he showed a lot of courage, but also a lot of the limitations associated with him over his long career.

No doubt Wlad was brave and hats off him but I would not have said AJ was a massive favourite. Opinon was pretty much split

Good piece and a valid question...

Think the answer is that time will tell...Have no doubt that Joshua will fight Wilder and Parker and the rest of the division. If he cleans up convincingly..the Klitschko performance will grow more respected and more important...

Time will tell..

Anyone saying Aj should have let his hands go to get wlad out of there must have watched the fight with their eyes closed

He tried that and paid dearly for it when he got separated from his senses by a left hook and then nearly lost the fight

He didn't recover from that shot for a few rounds and wlad nearly got him out of there as well

You can't just walk in on wlad it's suicide he has superb defence great footwork and positioning

I think Wlad came out of it well and showed a big heart to keep getting up (As did AJ when he looked goosed after the 6th). I know a lot of people were struggling to call it but AJ was a decent favourite betting wise and I think Wlad surprised a few people. Ultimately it was his natural caution and reluctance to let his hands go that caught him out but fair play to both of them.

Not a huge Wilder fan but cant imagine him letting AJ of the hook if he hurt him like that. Completely different animal to Wlad and his reckless style could see him getting blasted out himself but think he would have finished the job if he was in the position Wlad was in.

Think we maybe forgetting the mental aspect of Wlad's two fights with Fury and Joshua...We all like to humanise our opponents and get a handle on them....Wlad is a very intelligent guy he was able to subtly get into AJ's head and work him out...There was a friendly tone which suited a master manipulator....able to get his points across..

If you can dehumanise a monster it becomes less scary..

When someone is crazy enough to kick off at press conferences without provocation....Flies around a room in a batman suit and is as thick as pig crap....Mind games and dehumanization go out of the window one would assume...

We often over look the psychological aspect of sport.

Fury may have spooked Wlad..."May"...as it is just a theory.

Yet to see the fight, so a few questions.

Did wlad really miss an opportunity to go for it after round 6, or did he gas himself out after rounds 5 and 6 and not have it in the tank?

Before the fight, vitality said that wlad's weakness is concentration. Did he lose concentration at the start if the 11th or was he just exhausted and unable to withstand a resurgent Joshua?

Did the corner send AJ out telling him he needed a KO?

Two judges cards had AJ up after 10, most I've heard had wlad up. Were we in danger of a homecooked decision?

Sorry to highjack thread, but to answer OP, I think as defeats go this looks like a warrior going out on his shield compared to his last fight.

Wlad didn't want to get reckless he probably thought Aj was gassed so didn't take a risk

Sensible I thought but hindsight is a wonderful thing

And wilder???? He isn't in the Same league as wlad who would end him in less than 5

Home cooked decision? Probably. The scorecards were a joke, everyone I know had AJ clearly behind, by at least two. He was AWOL for about three rounds in the middle of the fight. Corner must of said he's behind too, hence the need to go looking for a knockout.

Thought WK was superior for most of the fight, movement, boxing skill & timing etc. Should of seen him off but maybe the ruthless streak has gone now & you don't let anyone with serious power off the hook, as it come back to haunt you. Joshua's power has taken him to the top, but as for actual boxing ability, still a lot to be desired.

As for Fury, I think Joshua walks straight through him. Fury has no power whatsoever. Also don't want to see a WK rematch, it won't live up to last night. If AJ goes on to dominate the division, WK's performance will only elevate him further

milkyboy wrote:Yet to see the fight, so a few questions.

Did wlad really miss an opportunity to go for it after round 6, or did he gas himself out after rounds 5 and 6 and not have it in the tank?

Before the fight, vitality said that wlad's weakness is concentration. Did he lose concentration at the start if the 11th or was he just exhausted and unable to withstand a resurgent Joshua?

Did the corner send AJ out telling him he needed a KO?

Two judges cards had AJ up after 10, most I've heard had wlad up. Were we in danger of a homecooked decision?

Sorry to highjack thread, but to answer OP, I think as defeats go this looks like a warrior going out on his shield compared to his last fight.

Wlad went for it at the end of the 5th and most of the 6th so would assume he was gassing himself at the time, certainly wasn't overly cautious prior to that.

There were so many adverts between rounds i'm not sure what the corners advice was and going into the 11th I had the fight even; 1, 2, 3, 5 & 10 for AJ the rest for Wlad.

Yeah I totally get it that that loss won't have done any harm to Wlad's standing hanging with Joshua at 41 showing a warrior spirit and looking like he was going to win for several chunks of the fight I think many will have warmed to Wlad for that performance last night none of the safety first that critics constantly dog him with

Joshua showed some great qualities too to go with his crunching power heart, recuperative powers the knockdown looked heavy and decent stamina for such a big man gets a second wind from nowhere and his chin got better as the fight progressed that's a good sign he's must watch from now on great fight had it all can't wait for the next one

fight was close milky dont listen to some

first few rounds were tight and cagey with aj being the aggressor and home crowd supporting him it would have been easy to give him the early rounds, think i had aj two and one even. think i gave wlad the fourth then a 10-8 to aj in the fifth. then wlad came into it with a 10-8 and the next few rounds. after the ninth round it was all to play for and i said at the time winner of the next three will win it.

but in the end none of it matters, joshua found a way to win and what the judges had is totally irrelevant

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Yet to see the fight, so a few questions.

Did wlad really miss an opportunity to go for it after round 6, or did he gas himself out after rounds 5 and 6 and not have it in the tank?

Before the fight, vitality said that wlad's weakness is concentration. Did he lose concentration at the start if the 11th or was he just exhausted and unable to withstand a resurgent Joshua?

Did the corner send AJ out telling him he needed a KO?

Two judges cards had AJ up after 10, most I've heard had wlad up. Were we in danger of a homecooked decision?

Sorry to highjack thread, but to answer OP, I think as defeats go this looks like a warrior going out on his shield compared to his last fight.

Wlad went for it at the end of the 5th and most of the 6th so would assume he was gassing himself at the time, certainly wasn't overly cautious prior to that.

There were so many adverts between rounds i'm not sure what the corners advice was and going into the 11th I had the fight even; 1, 2, 3, 5 & 10 for AJ the rest for Wlad.

Sounds like those first two were the swing rounds. Richie woodhall of all people gave them to wlad. Seems like evens to wlad up by a few is the spread... hard to justify 2 cards with josh up by 2-3.


BF is right about hindsight, radio guys thought wlad was boxing smart by not going gung ho

Morning Milky, Wlad missed 2 chances, think it was the 5th where he was knocked down then had AJ looking dead on his feet near the end of the round (stupid BFBS system kept cutting out). and then when he had AJ down heavily, although i'm sure he was trying to get to AJ but he was standing up to it and holding/smothering when he could.

That would have definitely been a homecooked decision and would have taken all the shine off what was a fantastic bout. (Seriously would liek to see someone look into this as it's marred it a little bit for me).

I'd like to know if the corner sent AJ out for the KO, i'm assuming so as everyone else had him losing and it looked like 11 was flush or bust.

compelling and rich wrote:fight was close milky dont listen to some

first few rounds were tight and cagey with aj being the aggressor and home crowd supporting him it would have been easy to give him the early rounds, think i had aj two and one even. think i gave wlad the fourth then a 10-8 to aj in the fifth. then wlad came into it with a 10-8 and the next few rounds. after the ninth round it was all to play for and i said at the time winner of the next three will win it.

but in the end none of it matters, joshua found a way to win and what the judges had is totally irrelevant

... probably should just get round to seeing it myself! True to a degree re the cards, not many remember the judges had Tyson up against Douglas... which would have been one of the all time shockers of a decision instead of just an all time shock.

Derbymanc wrote:Morning Milky, Wlad missed 2 chances, think it was the 5th where he was knocked down then had AJ looking dead on his feet near the end of the round (stupid BFBS system kept cutting out). and then when he had AJ down heavily, although i'm sure he was trying to get to AJ but he was standing up to it and holding/smothering when he could.

That would have definitely been a homecooked decision and would have taken all the shine off what was a fantastic bout. (Seriously would liek to see someone look into this as it's marred it a little bit for me).

I'd like to know if the corner sent AJ out for the KO, i'm assuming so as everyone else had him losing and it looked like 11 was flush or bust.

Morning derby. Still gutted I missed it, the inconsiderate nature of people planning birthdays on big fight nights!

Kind of amusing how Hearn lets the IFL guy ride around with him so he can promote his fights....Yet Boente says he isn’t allowed in the Press area and Hearn goes along with it...

Got to love Eddie......The art of the deal...

I thought Klitschko boxed his usual safety first gameplan. He was especially guilty of it in in rounds 7 and 8, when Joshua was there to for the taking, but Klitschko elected to just jab his way through the round. Joshua eventually recovered and probably felt he needed a knock out to to win which he was able to secure by really taking the fight to Klitschko and letting his hands go.

The lack of punch variety from Klitscho was also on display. He relies almost exclusively on a left jab, straight right and short left hook to his opponents head. His gamepln was the standard approach of looking to establish his jab and set up a left hook or straight right. It nearly came off for him as he landed the big one in the 6th and Joshua looked totaly done for. But Klitschkos limitations prevented him from finishing the fight and in the next couple of rounds he settled for trying to win them safety first. Joshua had Klitschko in a lot of bother when he took chances and pressed the fight.

The scorecards looked dodgy, 2 had Joshua winning when at the point of the knock out he was almost certainly behind by a couple of rounds. The knockdowns in round 11 would have made it a pretty even fight on a neutral card though.

BoxingFan88 wrote:Wlad didn't want to get reckless he probably thought Aj was gassed so didn't take a risk

Sensible I thought but hindsight is a wonderful thing

And wilder???? He isn't in the Same league as wlad who would end him in less than 5

Think you've misinterpreted my comment. I wasn't comparing Wilder to Wlad and when I said he was a completely different animal I didn't mean in a good way. But if he got himself into the position Wlad had I don't think he would have been as cautious/methodical and could have finished the job. Also may punch himself out in the process. Do think Wlad missed a trick and if he had put on a wee bit more pressure after round 6 the result could have been different but hindsight and all that. As you say he was being sensible but too sensible it seems.

wlad really should have applied more pressure after the knockdown Joshua looked their for the taking for a minute and a half or more can't remember fully someone with more killer instinct would surely have had Joshua out of there wondering if Wlad's kicking himself

In his interview after he said:

"I thought he wouldn't get up," he said. "He managed to get up: respect. From that moment I felt he was out of gas and concentration. He recovered through the rounds.

"I could have done more to finish him off after he went down, but I was pretty sure 'This is going to be my night' so I took my time.

... the difference between an intelligent, technically proficient excellent athlete and a natural instinctive fighter.

His brother, not as gifted, but more of a fighter by nature finishes him off in the same scenario ( though arguably doesn't hit has hard to drop him in the first place!)

milkyboy wrote:... the difference between an intelligent, technically proficient excellent athlete and a natural instinctive fighter.

His brother, not as gifted, but more of a fighter by nature finishes him off in the same scenario ( though arguably doesn't hit has hard to drop him in the first place!)

Vitali doesn't get dropped by AJ though!

I thought it was a delicious fight. Just as well it didn't go to the cards, or a great night for boxing would have been another black eye. I don't think a younger Wlad finishes off AJ in this situation either, for the simple reason that a younger Wlad would still have thought exactly the same thing, and tried to coast. Crazy night for boxing, and that uppercut. How Wladimir got up from that is beyond me (whether his brother gets dropped by it is arguable )

His brother didn't get dropped by a similar shot from Lewis to be fair. Young wlad would have gone for him after round 6. Steward wlad wouldn't I agree.

Vitali if he were around now, would be too much for Aj. But Aj will improve.

I done a bit of stirring after the fight. Lost a bet, had Wlad 9-12. (sore loser)

My true assessment is, it was a cracking fight. Wlad was winning, but Aj showed guts and determination to come back and knock Wlad out.

Joshua said he isn't the complete fighter (yet), but what he does, he does good. Last night was evidence of that.

Wlad will never be Ali, Holmes, Louis etc. But he is a better heavyweight than given credit. How many were quick to write him off before tho fight?

The same people are writing off Fury. Now do I Really believe Fury can beat AJ? Yes I think he can, but I have to make Joshua favourite. He showed a lot of character and determination.

I honestly believe if and that's a big if, Fury comes mentally and physically prepared, we are in for one hell of a fight.

Aj is the face of boxing and I do like him. Hopefully he has a great career.

No from me.

I am not going to put Wlad down completely he was a dominant champion but I am not going to just forget the decade long bore fest that he offered up as champion 1 exciting fight does not make up for the rubbish we have had to sit through.

Funny thing is that Wlads most exciting fights are the ones he lost lol

Out with the old in with the new Holmes is often labeled a boring champ but at least he can boast classics like Norton Witherspoon Cooney and Shavers

Wlad could still come back and spark Joshua his signature moment may still be yet to come

Wlad can definitely win a rematch if he wants one

It's not a forgone conclusion

Either that or he can go take the belts from the other champions

I don't think joshua proved he was the better boxer as i thought wlad outboxed him

But sometimes boxing is about intangibles

And we have Spence vs brook next

Super month for boxing with chavez vs alvarez As well and crawford vs Diaz

Rematch gives Fury time to get in shape and get a tuneup in before facing the winner some time early next year

Awful lot of money in the division at the minute

Flagship of the sport

Good to see its making a comeback

Boxing needs a heavyweight division

We rule all sports when it comes to the heavyweights

Wlad can still be king of the castle and a legend of the sport in next two fights revenge over Joshua and Fury all within a year wonder if he's tempted to give it a go I think he might be

Fury won't fight a tune up, he'll won't be able to motivate himself for any fight other than AJ, on yesterday's showing its a closer fight but his lack of power would be a problem.

I do agree about lack the power. I'll concede that.

Fury can win, but he needs to move and fight perfect for 12 rounds. Aj won't worry about Fury power, so will try and walk through him.

I hope they fight. The fight itself, might not be as entertaining as last night, but the hype would be crazy. Though with Anthony's style, I doubt he will be in any boring fights. Especially if they're anyway competitive.

So Fury, leave the kebab down and get this on.

Amazingly i think that was the best i have ever seen him box, for once didn't rely on his famous hitting and hugging and fought like he really wanted it. To be honest after his awful display against Fury i thought he was finished, the Wlad last night was a massive improvement on that night and if had turned up as focused against Fury i think he puts him away without to many dramas.

Do you not think Fury style upset Wlad?

I watched Fury and Chisora 2 the other day again. Fury boxed wonderfully, yet everyone was saying Chisora was shot. Didn't look too shot against Whyte.

Fury has son excellent skills. He might look awkward at times, but he is a very good fighter. Haye had an injury, but I really believe he wanted no part of Fury.

Fury might not beat Aj, but he will get inside his heads and Joshua will fight like a raging bull. Fury is quicker and a bigger man (height and reach). If he's an underdog, he's a live one.

If they fight and Fury is competitive, or dare I say wins? Hopefully some will give him credit.

Not really i think Wlad came in under prepared and frankly disrespected Fury so much he thought he just had to turn up. If he had not stood doing absolutely nothing for nearly 3 minutes a round Fury would not have nicked rounds by doing almost nothing himself. The Wlad of last night goes after Fury and lets the hands go he would catch up with him and knock him out, he would not have got up from the shot Joshua did. It worth remembering that although Fury messed his way to taking Wlads title this was still a man battered from pillar to post by a cruiser weight not long previous and managed to win with a completely illegal punch. Joshua will beat Wlad more easily next time, and then he will put Fury to sleep Wlad might have the power to keep Joshua off, but Fury couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding and AJ will walk through him. Just my opinion, thought AJ proved his metal as a real champion last night and for me getting up from that huge shot, then having the boxing brain to hold on and survive before dropping Wlad and stopping him is more conclusive than just throwing out a couple more jabs a round as 2 men do bugger all for 12 rounds wont happen with AJ because he is not burdened with Wlads fear of over commiting himself and getting caught.

I see were you're coming from, but I think you underestimate Fury.

Fury might not have concussive power, but he can fight 3 minutes a round. He has decent power.

He struggled with Cunningham, but he showed him absolutely no respect.

Joshua proved his metal and will rightly be favourite against anyone. But he was gassed after 6, until he caught a second wind.

If he tires against any top heavyweight he can be stopped. Personally I'd like to see him at 17 stone. He would still have more power than anyone and wouldn't lose oxygen as quick in his muscles.

Big respect to Aj. He's now the man in boxing and I hope he stays there. Though I am a fan of Fury too, so wouldn't be to upset if he comes back to conquer.

Though personal opinion aside, Aj is better for the sport and is saying/doing the right things.

Heavyweight boxing is back with a bang.

I make no apology for not rating Fury i think he poor fighter who has learned to get maximum advantage from his size, fair play to him but  i can see young fast punchers like AJ and Wilder destroying him his chin is just not up to it. I dont think we will see the fight anytime soon though the wild boar excuse is not gonna fool anyone so a long ban beckons during which i expect Fury to grow to the size of Kilimanjaro and make his living on reality shows. Anyway fair play to you we all have opinions and Fury certainly polarizes them.

If Fury beats Aj, will you admit you're wrong?

That's not an outcome I see as particularly realistic.

Time will tell lads.

But if an inactive 41 year old beaten champ can push Aj to the brink. I think a focused, faster and Bigger young champ can too.

Fury is faster than Joshua and moves better. Obviously Aj is more powerful and has great discipline.

Fury will push AJ hard. Joshua proved himself last night, but he isn't a Mike Tyson. The chap is beatable and has some flaws of his own.

Fury isn't Wlad, he doesn't possess the same power which was a big equalizer.

True Hammer, but he does present other issues.

I do think Aj would go in as favourite, but Fury has good skills.

If he isn't blown away early, he has a decent chance.

I think Fury is a good fighter and he gets into fighters heads. If he can get into Wlad's head, he will definitely get into Aj.

Whyte winded up Anthony, Fury will make a fool out of him, while making a fool out of himself.

I want to see it. The fight intrigues me, especially after last night.

AdamT wrote:If Fury beats Aj, will you admit you're wrong?

Absolutely mate, i wont lose any sleep who wins either way but the discussion and anticipation is what makes this such a great sport as much as the fights themselves.