Who will open with Alistair Cook vs South Africa?

This seems to be a common question as we prepare for a new test series. Since the retirement of Andrew Strauss in 2012, Cook has had 12 different partners at the top of the order:


Keaton Jennings - vs India (2016) 2 tests, avg 42
Haseeb Hameed - vs India (2016) 3 tests, avg 32
Ben Duckett - vs Bangladesh (2016) 2 tests, avg 23
Alex Hales - vs Pakistan (2016) 4 tests avg 18; Sri Lanka (2016) 3 tests, avg 58; vs South Africa (2015/16) 4 tests, avg 17
Moeen Ali - vs Pakistan (2015) 3 tests, avg 14
Jos Buttler - vs Pakistan (2015) 1 innings, avg 4
Adam Lyth - vs Australia (2015) 5 matches, avg 13; vs New Zealand (2015) 2 matches, avg 38
Jonathan Trott - vs West Indies (2015) 3 matches, avg 12
Sam Robson - vs India (2014) 5 matches avg 24; vs Sri Lanka (2014) 2 matches, avg 43
Joe Root - vs India (2016) 1 innings, avg 78; vs Australia (2013) 5 matches, avg  38
Nick Compton - vs Sri Lanka (2016), 1 innings, avg 19; vs New Zealand (2013) 2 matches avg 10; vs New Zealand (2013) 3 matches, avg 46; vs India (2012/13)4 matches, avg 35
Michael Carberry - vs Australia (2013/14) 5 matches, avg 28



Before the season started, it was almost assumed that Hameed and Jennings were fighting for the spot at the top of the order (but with the possibility that the "loser" may bat at 3 with Root moving down to 4). Hameed seemed to demonstrate across all 3 tests the sort of character that could lead to a long international career - but his performances this season are poor (currently averaging 19, he has yet to reach 50 in 9 D1 innings). Jennings test numbers are inflated by his debut ton and his form is admittedly superior to Hameed - yet not really setting the world alight in D2.


As to the other contenders:

Sam Robson - doing well, with over 500 runs @76. However will they go back to him?
Nick Browne - the 84 he scored yesterday is his highest of teh season so far.
Jimmy Adams - had a big hundred against Warwickshire and averaging over 50, however at 36 unlikely to be considered.
Mark Stoneman - seems to be enjoying the switch to the Oval. With three hundreds already this season and an average of 63, he has perhaps been feast or famine. Was thought to have been close to touring in the winter, he will be hoping the call comes.

Unless there is some setting D2 alight (I admit I do not pay it too much attention) then the contenders are looking light on the ground.

I would think that Hameed will open and keep his place, however Stoneman is next in line if not IMO

Rocky must be close to getting a starring role.

Not seen him bat yet, but 22 year old Alex Davies has three hundreds in the 2017 CC for the Lankies opening the batting - albeit not much else. He has done it all whilst keeping wicket too.

One to keep an eye on.

Im not going to fact check the whole thing but Hameed has 3 tests at an average of 43.8

Cricinfo ran this article last week
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/story/1103296.html

They list Jennings and Hameed as the favourites, with Gubbins and Stoneman as outside chances.
Jennings is having an OK season in Div 2 but did nbadly with the Lions. Hameed is having a really poor CC season. Cricinfo is suggesting that being asked to play in limited overs has messed with his natural defensive game, and whilsts coring shots is the missing part of the puzzle for hiom as a batsman it could take a while for him to build that all round game (if ever). I really think sticking him in tests again right now would be a mistake, he was called up ridiculously young.

Todays Lions match at Canterbury is being seen as a chance for all 4 to make a case for inclussion in the test side.

Gooseberry wrote:Im not going to fact check the whole thing but Hameed has 3 tests at an average of 43.8

The query I ran only looked at runs scored opening the innings. Hameed's last innings 59no was scored batting at No8 so was excluded from the stats. That also explains why Root had one innings opening in that series against India.

LondonTiger wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Im not going to fact check the whole thing but Hameed has 3 tests at an average of 43.8

The query I ran only looked at runs scored opening the innings. Hameed's last innings 59no was scored batting at No8 so was excluded from the stats. That also explains why Root had one innings opening in that series against India.

Ah that makes a lot of sense. It just struck me as odd when I saw the figure as I knew it wasnt correct. Of course for a lot of those guys quaoting full career stats woudl be meaningless in this context as the majority of their cricket was played down the order.
So yep fair enough!

Lions vs SA A

MD Stoneman, H Hameed, KK Jennings*, NRT Gubbins, DW Lawrence, BT Foakes†, SM Curran, J Overton, MJ Leach, TG Helm, JA Porter

The first 4 are competing for 1 or maybe 2 test spots. Curren and Overton too could press a case for first reserve seamer.

AK Markram*, HG Kuhn, TB de Bruyn, T Bavuma, K Zondo, H Klaasen†, PWA Mulder, DL Piedt, BE Hendricks, D Olivier, CJ Dala

SA squad looks similalry inexperienced at international level (aside from Bavuma). Only a handfull of interntaional caps between the rest, and very few of those in tests.

Hameed out for a duck off 11 balls whilst Stoneman score freely at the other end.

Yes that duck for Hameed doesn't help his cause...

I am concerned by the way the young man has lost his form as I did form a very favorable impression of him on the Indian tour - not just the runs he scored but the way he adapted his game to difficult circumstances , upping his run rate when appropriate , battling with the tail when injured : he displayed the sort of temperament that suggested he might well be a long term success as opener. I didn't expect his career to proceed without any hiccups ; but I didn't think he would fall in such a hole so quickly !
Whatever the cause , it comes at a bad time . As Goose says , playing him now when so out of form might be a very bad idea ; but it is a pity he should be lost so soon after the initial good start...who knows how long before he will find his way back ?

Stoneman is certainly making a strong case. As is Robson (remember him ?). And Jennings not out of the picture - though he might be destined for number three...

Hameed can barely buy a run this season, and that has continued today - surely he is going to be out of contention? I could see both Stoneman and Jennings playing, they at least have made some runs this season

Surely though, this is a side debate to how we get the form player in the country into the side so that he can mercilessly slay the South African bowling - no other than Samit Patel!

Gooseberry wrote:Lions vs SA A

MD Stoneman, H Hameed, KK Jennings*, NRT Gubbins, DW Lawrence, BT Foakes†, SM Curran, J Overton, MJ Leach, TG Helm, JA Porter

The first 4 are competing for 1 or maybe 2 test spots. Curren and Overton too could press a case for first reserve seamer.

AK Markram*, HG Kuhn, TB de Bruyn, T Bavuma, K Zondo, H Klaasen†, PWA Mulder, DL Piedt, BE Hendricks, D Olivier, CJ Dala

SA squad looks similalry inexperienced at international level (aside from Bavuma). Only a handfull of interntaional caps between the rest, and very few of those in tests.

I'm sure that's a mistake from cricinfo. It should be Tom Curran playing, not his brother Sam.

alfie wrote:Yes that duck for Hameed doesn't help his cause...

I am concerned by the way the young man has lost his form as I did form a very favorable impression of him on the Indian tour - not just the runs he scored but the way he adapted his game to difficult circumstances , upping his run rate when appropriate , battling with the tail when injured : he displayed the sort of temperament that suggested he might well be a long term success as opener.  I didn't expect his career to proceed without any hiccups ; but I didn't think he would fall in such a hole so quickly !
Whatever the cause , it comes at a bad time . As Goose says , playing him now when so out of form might be a very bad idea ; but it is a pity he should be lost so soon after the initial good start...who knows how long before he will find his way back ?

Stoneman is certainly making a strong case.  As is Robson (remember him ?). And Jennings not out of the picture - though he might be destined for number three...

I like Stoneman a lot. Good temperament, patient when he needs to be, puts the ordinary ball away when the opportunity arises. He's certainly finding tracks at the Oval easier to bat on than at Durham - started the season very well with his new county. Goose usually tries to rip me apart for this sort of comment but he he looks to follow the Alec Stewart mantra of ''When you are in, go big. Fifties don't win you matches. Centuries do and particularly big centuries.''

guildfordbat wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Lions vs SA A

MD Stoneman, H Hameed, KK Jennings*, NRT Gubbins, DW Lawrence, BT Foakes†, SM Curran, J Overton, MJ Leach, TG Helm, JA Porter

The first 4 are competing for 1 or maybe 2 test spots. Curren and Overton too could press a case for first reserve seamer.

AK Markram*, HG Kuhn, TB de Bruyn, T Bavuma, K Zondo, H Klaasen†, PWA Mulder, DL Piedt, BE Hendricks, D Olivier, CJ Dala

SA squad looks similalry inexperienced at international level (aside from Bavuma). Only a handfull of interntaional caps between the rest, and very few of those in tests.

I'm sure that's a mistake from cricinfo. It should be Tom Curran playing, not his brother Sam.

Guildford - Tom Curran is with the senior England side for the T20s v SA so Sam's the one with the Lions

Brothers should be banned...far too confusing for me

As for Patel...if ever you needed an example of why massive amounts of rubs in D2 is no I dictator of test ability then theres your man.
I'm sure he will continue to keep inflating his stats toll he's in his late 30s ( stones and years) but all he proves is there's a lack of real quality in county cricket

Gooseberry wrote:Brothers should be banned...far too confusing for me

Doh!! Totally agree with Goose there and thanks as well, James. Knew Tom had been called up by England but etc etc I'll stop digging!

Meanwhile, Rocky providing a solid foundation for the Lions which won't do his chances any harm.

Maybe they could keep one for tests and one for the limited over stuff just to really confuse the casual followers.
Anyway Stonemans making his case very well up to lunch, and Jennings still in too.

Assuming England dont continue to pretend Buttler can be a test bat the chances of them both starting are increasing. If youd mentioned them 18 months back as a possible England 2 and 3 (or indeed Hameed) people wouldve laughed.

The churn of England top order bats continues ....

Stoneman got his half and got out soon after ...no good for Stewarts team but more than adequate in the real world

Gubbins out cheaply but Jennings is still going steady also collecting his half century.

Gooseberry wrote:As for Patel...if ever you needed an example of why massive amounts of rubs in D2 is no I dictator of test ability then theres your man.
I'm sure he will continue to keep inflating his stats toll he's in his late 30s ( stones and years) but all he proves is there's a lack of real quality in county cricket

Sadly true - though he actually had the talent to make it, just not the application to go with it. Definitely a player who wasted his potential and took the easy option of staying in County Cricket

It simply wouldn't be fair to pick Hameed in this sort of form to face Rabada, Morkel and Philander. He'd be butchered. He's clearly shown he can do it, so if he starts scoring some CC runs he should be back in the squad, but at this moment he's averaging something like 13 this season - not fair on the kid to feed him to the Lions (well Proteas!)

I'd imagine Stoneman and Jennings will get the call up - Jennings at 3, Stoneman opening.

I know this is an openers thread...but intrigued to hear what people think about Buttler. He did OK in India (certainly better than others like Duckett), and as you all know I think he is great...but do you think he keeps his slot in the XI or squad?

Olly - interesting question re: Buttler

I personally wouldn't have him—I'm on record that Foakes should come in to keep wicket and fill the lower-order slot—but if you're not going to go that way, there's a space spare and there aren't many batters knocking down the doors.

In this Lions squad, the only middle-order batsman is Dan Lawrence and no-one is making the case for him as a Test match player. Rashid could come in, with Moeen or Bairstow moving up the order, but it's hard to see the need for 6 bowlers in home conditions. The other possible options are probably Livingstone, or a recall for Ballance.

(agree with everything you say about openers 100%)

Following on from James' post, runs today in the Lions game for Foakes which Alfie and Olly have been asking for. Top scoring with an undefeated 77.

58 and 57 respectively for Stoneman and Jennings. Probably sufficient to keep Jennings his Test place. Might be enough to get Stoneman a call up to the top level although, despite Goose's mockery, I'm sure he'll have some disappointment that he didn't go on to almost guarantee a spot.

As for Hameed, I do wonder if his hand injury is still an issue, physically and/or psychologically. [Although he got back on the pitch and even briefly played Test cricket, I don't think Ansari ever fully recovered from his thumb injury.] At any rate, Hameed has already shown he's a battler and I'm sure he'll do everything to get back although this series looks too soon.

Glad to see Foakes scoring well ( I actually didn't realize how good his FC stats were until guildford pointed them out : to be honest I had assumed from comments made by some of you Surrey chaps that he was "lighter" in this area than is the case). I'd happily have him pencilled in as reserve keeper for the Ashes series already and these runs don't hurt.
On the flip side I don't expect him to displace Bairstow provided the latter continues to improve with the gloves. Contrary to a few posters I am happy to have a very accomplished player at seven to either save a bad position or ram home an advantageous one (The Gilchrist Effect?) and continue to work on finding the "right" number five (Livingstone ? A reinvented Ballance ? AN Other) - as implied , I also like Moeen at eight , except when subcontinental conditions call for a second spinner.
I do acknowledge this view is contestable - and Foakes fits one of the alternatives quite well. Better than Buttler , I suspect. But I've rather drifted from the opener issue , sorry...

Stoneman helped his cause today. But 100 would have helped it even more

Think guildford's question about the hand injury aftermath might indeed be relevant to Hameed's problems ; I had been pondering on similar lines ; I do hope he can work his way through this. Wonder if the England coaching set up are looking to actively work with him - or are they just leaving it to his County ?

Foakes isnt a bad option as the 4th keeper in the England pecking order is he!

Foakes makes his century for the Lions just before rain stops play. It won't be easy for him to get the door open but he's knocking loudly.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
...

I know this is an openers thread...but intrigued to hear what people think about Buttler. He did OK in India (certainly better than others like Duckett), and as you all know I think he is great...but do you think he keeps his slot in the XI or squad?

Olly - Buttler would be a bit of a wild card for me. I certainly wouldn't build the team around him. I would want to know who else you're including and more particularly who of the leading contenders you're leaving out before making a decision on him being in the XI.

Well if you have say
Cook
Stoneman/A.N. Other
Jennings
Root
?
Stokes
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

as roughly your first choice line-up, then there's certainly a spot open in the middle-order, maybe even two if Jennings opens and Root goes to three.

What are the options?
Foakes (with Bairstow moving to 5 and Foakes taking the gloves)
Buttler
Livingstone
Ballance
A wildcard like Billings
Any others? Who's been scoring heavily in the middle-order so far this season? (Samit Patel aside)

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Any others? Who's been scoring heavily in the middle-order so far this season? (Samit Patel aside)

Only England-qualified middle order options there are Ballance, Lawrence, Westley, Eskinazi & Malan.

Well if we're going on form this year Ballance should clearly take the #5 slot.....

For me Bairstow should bat at #5 and then we have a slot open at #7 - now you could fill it with Buttler/Foakes, or another all rounder imo.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Well if we're going on form this year Ballance should clearly take the #5 slot.....

For me Bairstow should bat at #5 and then we have a slot open at #7 - now you could fill it with Buttler/Foakes, or another all rounder imo.

Whats your thinking?

Cook
Stoneman
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Keeper??
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

For me if Foakes or Buttler are going to play they would have to be doing so as better glovemen than Bairstow, and allow him to focus solely on his batting. The other options would be to bring in another proper middle order bat and allow Bairstow down to 6 and Stokes to 7 or to play Rashid and move Ali up to 5-7

If they are bringing in a new 2 and 3 I cant see them wanting to mess about with other new caps in the top 6. If Ballances form in the CC was enough to earn him yet another recall then I wouldve expected him to have been in the Lions side. Its hardly the first time hes plundered a dick load of runs in the CC, despite that hes failed to deliver for England.

That you have 3 retired players in the top 10 CC bats sums up how poor the competition is now.

OK, here's a wild thought: Robson in the middle-order.

No, hear me out . Robson has a lot of attributes to make a successful international player IMO, he has good temperament, and a good range of shots so won't get bogged down too much. His weakness is a lack of judgement a on about fourth or fifth stump. If you move him to the middle-order, and shield him from the new ball, you can to a degree negate that, and allow him to focus on his strengths.

Yes I know he's opened his whole life, but so had Hussey up to the point Australia picked him at 5, and he didn't do so badly. Indeed, Root was an opener by trade until England decided otherwise.

Again if it were on the cards he be playing for the Lions.

As it is Foakes has passed 100 not out. He cant press a case any harder.
His inclussion though would open the same can of worms that putting Buttler in did, if hes playing down the order surely it has to be as a keeper not just making up the numbers with the bat.

Gooseberry wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Well if we're going on form this year Ballance should clearly take the #5 slot.....

For me Bairstow should bat at #5 and then we have a slot open at #7 - now you could fill it with Buttler/Foakes, or another all rounder imo.

Whats your thinking?

Cook
Stoneman
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Keeper??
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

For me if Foakes or Buttler are going to play they would have to be doing so as better glovemen than Bairstow, and allow him to focus solely on his batting. The other options would be to bring in another proper middle order bat and allow Bairstow down to 6 and Stokes to 7 or to play Rashid and move Ali up to 5-7

If they are bringing in a new 2 and 3 I cant see them wanting to mess about with other new caps in the top 6. If Ballances form in the CC was enough to earn him yet another recall then I wouldve expected him to have been in the Lions side. Its hardly the first time hes plundered a dick load of runs in the CC, despite that hes failed to deliver for England.

That you have 3 retired players in the top 10 CC bats sums up how poor the competition is now.

I think I would take the gloves off Bairstow and give them to Foakes (ultimately my head says buttler won't get it, but my heart wants Jos). Foakes is a better keeper than Jonny, and I think Bairstow at #5 is what we need. He's a top 10 bat in the world, he shouldn't be coming in at #7

Much as I like / adore Foakes, I can't see England being keen to take the gloves off Bairstow having invested so heavily in his keeping and when it has considerably improved over the last year or so.

Foakes is pushing hard though. 127 not out for the Lions. That might even satisfy me and Stewie, eh Goose?

I agree with you both. Bringung in Foakes would leave a problem with Bairstow and the gloves.
But it would solve another amd allow Bairstow to continue his development into the second best all formats batsmen we have ( ok the second all formats batsman ...)
I cant see them capping two new players alongside jennings though.
As likely is going with Rashid and asking Moeen to bat top 6. Because we need 7 bowling options

If there's a middle order spot going, a certain Moeen Ali scored over a 1000 test runs last year with centuries at number 4 & 5. Just saying like...

Twin hundreds vs Kent this week for Joe Clarke too. Probably a bit late, as he hasn't been in great nick this year. But if he goes on a tear, England do like him...

guildfordbat wrote:Much as I like / adore Foakes, I can't see England being keen to take the gloves off Bairstow having invested so heavily in his keeping and when it has considerably improved over the last year or so.

Foakes is pushing hard though. 127 not out for the Lions. That might even satisfy me and Stewie, eh Goose?

Precisely. It would seem odd ; to remove one of the key planks of the team (YJB , keeper , seven - or six if you like) that was largely working ; in order to cover a weakness elsewhere. Maybe down the road ; but surely not right now ? Apart from anything else who's to say that might not adversely affect Bairstow's batting ?
Not saying you can't tinker with the team ; but I feel it would be wiser to leave the parts that are apparently sound in place until you've filled at least some of the missing bits...

Cook
Stoneman/Robson ?
Jennings
Root
Ballance/Clarke/Livingstone/Robson (quite like mfc's theory- worth a try ?)
Stokes
Bairstow
Moeen
Broad if fit. otherwise Ball/Curran/Overton/ etc
Wood
Anderson

Really can't see them picking a second spinner in England and bumping Moeen up to five ; and I really doubt that would be viable (looking ahead a bit) in Australia in a few months.

Foakes will have to wait a little while , as keepers often do.

The batting has some inexperienced players ; but since Bell ,Trott and HWMNBN have departed from the middle order over the last three years and not been adequately replaced (except by Joe "taking Root " for one spot) ; that is inevitable. When they hit on the right players , we'll all know it.

Hameed out for 2 in the second innings. He can hardly score a run at the moment so I see little chance of a place in the Test team. In fact I would go further than that and would say the selectors would have to be insane to pick him at the moment!

Bairstows wasted at 7 ...why relegate him again?

Rocky punches his way to to a second fifty and still hitting ....

Both of them making the selevtors jobs easy.



They will probably recall Duckett

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Much as I like / adore Foakes, I can't see England being keen to take the gloves off Bairstow having invested so heavily in his keeping and when it has considerably improved over the last year or so.

Foakes is pushing hard though. 127 not out for the Lions. That might even satisfy me and Stewie, eh Goose?

Precisely.  It would seem odd ; to remove one of the key planks of the team (YJB , keeper , seven - or six if you like) that was largely working ; in order to cover a weakness elsewhere.   Maybe down the road ; but surely not right now ?  Apart from anything else who's to say that might not adversely affect Bairstow's batting ?
Not saying you can't tinker with the team ; but I feel it would be wiser to leave the parts that are apparently sound in place until you've filled at least some of the missing bits...

Cook
Stoneman/Robson  ?
Jennings
Root
Ballance/Clarke/Livingstone/Robson (quite like mfc's theory- worth a try ?)
Stokes
Bairstow
Moeen
Broad if fit. otherwise Ball/Curran/Overton/ etc
Wood
Anderson

Really can't see them picking a second spinner in England and bumping Moeen up to five ; and I really doubt that would be viable (looking ahead a bit) in Australia in a few months.

Foakes will have to wait a little while , as keepers often do.  

The batting has some inexperienced players ; but since Bell ,Trott and HWMNBN have departed from the middle order over the last three years and not been adequately replaced (except by Joe "taking Root " for one spot) ; that is inevitable.  When they hit on the right players , we'll all know it.

Your team is missing Sir Christopher himself alfie.

I'd agree with goose - Bairstow is wasted at #7. Arguably our second best batsman

Only 'cos he's injured , Olly. Woakes is there when he's fit , don't worry

Can't agree Bairstow is "wasted" at seven ...he's made a hatful of runs there : so how are they a waste ? Bat him ahead of Stokes if you must ; but not many keepers bat higher than that.

It's the overall combination that counts , in my book.