The Rugby Championship - Buildup

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 24 Jul 2017, 10:23 am

Seeing as there's only 3 matches left in Super Rugby, time to start thinking about TRC

Fixtures:

The Australian squad are already in camp (except for their Brumbies' players), with all their Super Rugby commitments finished - Quade Cooper and Scott Higginbotham notable squad omissions, thought Quade may get a reprieve as Karmichael Hunt is out for the next 2 months

Wallabies Squad:

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 24 Jul 2017, 10:39 am

Interesting to see 9 of the 13 matches with NH refs - I presume WR are doing the "familiarity" thing, meaning there'll be a fair few SH refs getting 6N gigs

by Geordie Mon 24 Jul 2017, 10:44 am

Is there any point playing it? Just give NZ the trophy and have a nice summer holiday.

by munkian Mon 24 Jul 2017, 12:57 pm

Anyone got a fixtures list ?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 24 Jul 2017, 1:00 pm

munkian wrote:Anyone got a fixtures list ?

It's in the OP

by munkian Mon 24 Jul 2017, 1:02 pm

Kinnell, its been one of 'those' days...

by mikey_dragon Tue 25 Jul 2017, 10:18 am

Surely SA are favourites after New Zealand's recent and dismal failure?

by emack2 Tue 25 Jul 2017, 5:30 pm

Mikey the last time the AB`s had a record as poor a record as you suggest was 2009.
By the end of 2009 they were back to IRB number 1 again.I agree with you though
Super Rugby isn`t the RC hopefully it will be very competitive.

by **Biltong** Tue 25 Jul 2017, 6:47 pm

The dismal way South African and Australian rugby is administered, coached etc leaves little to be excited about.

There will be only one winner.

Until SA and OZ can find a way to sustainably improve the rugby Championship will be utterly boring and predictable

by Hazel Sapling Tue 25 Jul 2017, 9:17 pm

I have missed the Super Rugby season so may be a bit out. From following some of the articles about, the interesting question for this 4N is whether Argentina can get to 2nd or 3rd.

SA hammered France and sent them back to the drawing board, but they have not been consistently strong since before that loss to Japan thanks to the quotas. They still have the sorts of players that could cause problems for NZ, however they have to prove the French tour is the new normal.

Australia are in the same boat as SA. They have lacked consistency and it will be interesting to see how they move forward. On their day, they can cause problems for any side in the world. They also can be bullied out of a match by strong packs that SA and Argentina are reputed for. They could beat NZ on the 19th and lose the next 5 games. Should be the biggest wildcard in the 4N.

Argentina are now in their 2nd year in Super Rugby and have been underwhelming in both. Without some star names and good players in the NH, they lack the depth they should have. On the other hand, the players have been together all season and they should be ready to spring upsets.

NZ really should put everyone to bed with the dominant Super Rugby teams. I can see them losing once though, due to having so many players in the playoffs and playing the Lions tour. The depth and quality should shine through over the course of 2 months.

by **George Carlin** Sun 30 Jul 2017, 7:27 am

You would have to say that the Springboks look the most likely to actually challenge NZ but it seems like a 3 tier competition this year, with the rump scrapping for second place.

Anyone know if Pocock's sabbatical is over and he will be playing? Or not?

Lots of up and coming Aussie talent - Cheika just needs a better strategy. I realised when Scotland beat Australia in the summer that for a team with an astonishing amount of strike running talent, the Wallaby attack patterns looked relatively comfortable to contain. I am wondering if the problem isn't the coaching.

by mikey_dragon Sun 30 Jul 2017, 10:37 am

Biltong wrote:The dismal way South African and Australian rugby is administered, coached etc leaves little to be excited about.

There will be only one winner.

Until SA and OZ can find a way to sustainably improve the rugby Championship will be utterly boring and predictable

Well Lions have clearly emerged as a force in the last couple of seasons, whilst Bulls, Sharks and Stomers will always have the pedigree. SA rugby last season was painful to watch even for the most die-hard fan, but there's hope yet.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 2:03 pm

emack2 wrote:Mikey the last time the AB`s had a record as poor a record as you suggest was 2009.
By the end of 2009 they were back to IRB number 1 again.I agree with you though
Super Rugby isn`t the RC hopefully it will be very competitive.

Based on the last rugby championship it looks set to be desperately one sided. NZ won all their games by 19 points plus. Some games by cricket scores. It was a terrible tournament.

South Africa have improved but not by a whole lot really. Beating France three times at home doesnt tell us much. Australia's implosion continues based on the Scotland game.

Super rugby is fairly meaningless in terms of predicting the rugby championship as there are conferences and some terrible homer refereeing.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 2:05 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Biltong wrote:The dismal way South African and Australian rugby is administered, coached etc leaves little to be excited about.

There will be only one winner.

Until SA and OZ can find a way to sustainably improve the rugby Championship will be utterly boring and predictable

Well Lions have clearly emerged as a force in the last couple of seasons, whilst Bulls, Sharks and Stomers will always have the pedigree. SA rugby last season was painful to watch even for the most die-hard fan, but there's hope yet.

I feel like playing a home semi with a South African referee was the only way the Lions were ever going to beat the Hurricanes. There was a lot wrong with that result IMO.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 01 Aug 2017, 2:36 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Biltong wrote:The dismal way South African and Australian rugby is administered, coached etc leaves little to be excited about.

There will be only one winner.

Until SA and OZ can find a way to sustainably improve the rugby Championship will be utterly boring and predictable

Well Lions have clearly emerged as a force in the last couple of seasons, whilst Bulls, Sharks and Stomers will always have the pedigree. SA rugby last season was painful to watch even for the most die-hard fan, but there's hope yet.

I feel like playing a home semi with a South African referee was the only way the Lions were ever going to beat the Hurricanes. There was a lot wrong with that result IMO.

Peyper & co influenced the margin a touch. Ultimately though the Canes lost because they ran out of steam after the first 35 minutes (altitude/jet lag) & had butchered a few chances already. If they'd taken those chances, and not had Barrett not been very softly binned (though Riccitelli ought to have seen yellow for a more blatant goal line infringement 5 mins later & didn't) they might have held on

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 2:47 pm

Thats the way the tournament is structured I suppose.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 01 Aug 2017, 3:34 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Thats the way the tournament is structured I suppose.

Aye. Travel & altitude are a fact of life.

The Cheetahs' home ground for Pro 14 is 100ft higher above sea level than the summit of Ben Nevis, I'd expect them to be tough to beat there

by **Biltong** Tue 01 Aug 2017, 3:55 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Biltong wrote:The dismal way South African and Australian rugby is administered, coached etc leaves little to be excited about.

There will be only one winner.

Until SA and OZ can find a way to sustainably improve the rugby Championship will be utterly boring and predictable

Well Lions have clearly emerged as a force in the last couple of seasons, whilst Bulls, Sharks and Stomers will always have the pedigree. SA rugby last season was painful to watch even for the most die-hard fan, but there's hope yet.

I feel like playing a home semi with a South African referee was the only way the Lions were ever going to beat the Hurricanes. There was a lot wrong with that result IMO.

That is just utter BS.

Not even worth debating.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 4:12 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Thats the way the tournament is structured I suppose.

Aye. Travel & altitude are a fact of life.

The Cheetahs' home ground for Pro 14 is 100ft higher above sea level than the summit of Ben Nevis, I'd expect them to be tough to beat there

Good prep for the Irish sides when they do away tours to SA once every 12 years. Ireland came within a whisker of beating SA at altitude last year.

by **Biltong** Tue 01 Aug 2017, 4:48 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Thats the way the tournament is structured I suppose.

Aye. Travel & altitude are a fact of life.

The Cheetahs' home ground for Pro 14 is 100ft higher above sea level than the summit of Ben Nevis, I'd expect them to be tough to beat there

Good prep for the Irish sides when they do away tours to SA once every 12 years. Ireland came within a whisker of beating SA at altitude last year.

How you didn't win that tour is beyond me, we were terrible last year

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 4:52 pm

Yeah I dont know either. The consensus in Ireland seemed to be that it was a poor tour for Ireland despite winning for the first time in SA and with only 14 men. It wasnt good overall though.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 02 Aug 2017, 9:04 am

ABs' initial training squad named - note, Crusaders' players unavailable for the 1st camp

TKB's selection a surprise given he's off overseas soon - Fekitoa misses out due to his Toulon deal, while Cruden's finished too

Uncapped players in green
All Blacks squad for two-day camp:
Forwards
Hookers: Dane Coles, Nathan Harris
Props: Kane Hames, Nepo Laulala, Atu Moli, Jeffery Toomaga-Allen and Ofa Tu'ungafasi.
Locks: Dominic Bird, Tom Franklin, Brodie Retallick and Patrick Tuipulotu.
Loose forwards: Sam Cane, Vaea Fifita, Akira Ioane, Jerome Kaino, Ardie Savea and Liam Squire

Backs
Halfbacks: Tawera Kerr-Barlow, TJ Perenara and Aaron Smith.
First five-eighths: Beauden Barrett, Damian McKenzie and Lima Sopoaga.
Midfielders: Richard Buckman, Ngani Laumape, Anton Lienert-Brown, Charlie Ngatai, Sonny Bill Williams
Outside backs: Jordie Barrett, Rieko Ioane, Nehe Milner-Skudder, Waisake Naholo, Julian Savea, Ben Smith.

by mikey_dragon Wed 02 Aug 2017, 9:24 am

Is big Charlie going to Toulouse this coming season?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 02 Aug 2017, 10:17 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Is big Charlie going to Toulouse this coming season?

Yep. Hence the new props called up. Atu Moli was head boy at my old school in 2014 (& captained NZ U20s in 2015)

by **George Carlin** Wed 02 Aug 2017, 11:11 am

Who's Dicky Buckman? That's my new favourite player name.

by BamBam Wed 02 Aug 2017, 11:20 am

George Carlin wrote:Who's Dicky Buckman? That's my new favourite player name.

Plays 13/wing/FB for the Highlanders - has a great nickname too "The Barracuda"

by **Galted** Wed 02 Aug 2017, 8:02 pm

Biltong wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Biltong wrote:The dismal way South African and Australian rugby is administered, coached etc leaves little to be excited about.

There will be only one winner.

Until SA and OZ can find a way to sustainably improve the rugby Championship will be utterly boring and predictable

Well Lions have clearly emerged as a force in the last couple of seasons, whilst Bulls, Sharks and Stomers will always have the pedigree. SA rugby last season was painful to watch even for the most die-hard fan, but there's hope yet.

I feel like playing a home semi with a South African referee was the only way the Lions were ever going to beat the Hurricanes. There was a lot wrong with that result IMO.

That is just utter BS.

Not even worth debating.

It was a strange thing to say, the Lions won 4 out of 8 against NZ opposition last season, which included beating the Chiefs away.

by Guest Wed 02 Aug 2017, 8:39 pm

BamBam wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Who's Dicky Buckman? That's my new favourite player name.

Plays 13/wing/FB for the Highlanders - has a great nickname too "The Barracuda"

He's a cult hero down in Otago, a bit of a scruff and has a touch of Conrad Smith about him. As in, you wouldn't expect him to be a good rugby player when you look at him.

by Guest Wed 02 Aug 2017, 8:46 pm

Galted wrote:
Biltong wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Biltong wrote:The dismal way South African and Australian rugby is administered, coached etc leaves little to be excited about.

There will be only one winner.

Until SA and OZ can find a way to sustainably improve the rugby Championship will be utterly boring and predictable

Well Lions have clearly emerged as a force in the last couple of seasons, whilst Bulls, Sharks and Stomers will always have the pedigree. SA rugby last season was painful to watch even for the most die-hard fan, but there's hope yet.

I feel like playing a home semi with a South African referee was the only way the Lions were ever going to beat the Hurricanes. There was a lot wrong with that result IMO.

That is just utter BS.

Not even worth debating.

It was a strange thing to say, the Lions won 4 out of 8 against NZ opposition last season, which included beating the Chiefs away.

The Lions are a very good team of players and well coached. They deserve to be in the final and should win it at home against any non-SA team that has to travel and deal with altitude. The Canes blew themselves out in 35 minutes and their forwards weren't up to the challenge.

by emack2 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 9:43 am

Super rugby is not the RC,usually the top side in the league table,home side wins.
Lions arguably have been the best around this season at home,on the high veldt.
Crusaders have to travel,acclimatise in a week,mission improbable,plus SA ref,
asst ref,and TMO.
Peyper is pedantic at Scrums and Offside,and is a noted "Homer",.a Yellow card
and a string of penalties will decide it.
Crusaders have a strong setpiece,defence,and attack plus a good goalkicker in
perfect conditions.
IF they can field there first choice side they have a chance,BUT I fear it won`t
be enough.
The comp is flawed why not do away with playoffs,and have a two leg Final
between top 2 sides with neutral [NH?]officials.

by GunsGermsV2 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 9:55 am

emack2 wrote:Super rugby is not the RC,usually the top side in the league table,home side wins.
Lions arguably have been the best around this season at home,on the high veldt.
Crusaders have to travel,acclimatise in a week,mission improbable,plus SA ref,
asst ref,and TMO.
Peyper is pedantic at Scrums and Offside,and is a noted "Homer",.a Yellow card
and a string of penalties will decide it.
Crusaders have a strong setpiece,defence,and attack plus a good goalkicker in
perfect conditions.
IF they can field there first choice side they have a chance,BUT I fear it won`t
be enough.
The comp is flawed why not do away with playoffs,and have a two leg Final
between top 2 sides with neutral [NH?]officials.

I agree with all of that. Dont trust SA refs and in particular TMOs when reffing in SA.

by emack2 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 10:02 am

The Rugby Championship is probably more open than for years,if you have watched
any Super Rugby.Australia and South African teams may or may not have been as
consistent as the NZ sides.
BUT have shown they have many good players available,this season and it seems
will be picking home based players.
Australia in Sydney is always a hard ask,SA looked to have started to turn the
Corner.
NZ with the defections of top players means a lot of new boys will start on the
bench,or even start.A 10,12,13 of B.Barrett,J.Barrett,and Crotty in midfield and
McKenzie at 15 is a distinct possibility.
Sopanga as backup for Barrett,plus a wealth of talented players for the bench.
I hope NZ will win again but it`s by no means a forgone conclusion

by GunsGermsV2 Thu 03 Aug 2017, 2:36 pm

SBW has been cleared to face the Wallabies. What a farce. ABs get away with it again.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/williams-free-to-face-wallabies/

by Guest Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:31 am

3 Aussies saying SBW can't play against the Wallabies in a Bledisloe Cup game was a farce. That's why their judgement was overruled. Because it was farcical Wink

by No 7&1/2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:36 am

Thought I read that the panel comprised of a south African somewhere like Singapore as well?

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:59 am

The ABs think they are above punishment.

by Guest Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:22 am

No 7.5, it was 3x Australians that originally handed down the 4 weeks and then said a certain game wouldn't count and thus meaning SBW would miss the first Bledisloe Cup game. The decision was appealed. A new panel comprising 'non' Australians decided the certain game did count and the rest is history and SBW can play.

Guns, while you're on your high horse, you'll be glad to know those same 3x Australians let SOB off scott free for knocking a player out cold. It's great that you are so balanced thumbsup

by No 7&1/2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:23 am

Cheers ebop. So you think that the 4 games was too long or that these friendlies / lower level games should count?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:26 am

Interesting last point that we.welcome back to time and again across a host of sports. Should outcome be the thing which is punished rather than action or intent.

by Guest Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:28 am

7.5, I agree with what you said earlier about taking on the approach used by football. Suspended in tests? Do the time in tests. Same for club rugby. The rules in rugby are what they are and it's a schmozzle.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:47 am

Would take away some of this silliness...though as it's a nz training match may still be exploited by some.

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:20 am

ebop wrote:No 7.5, it was 3x Australians that originally handed down the 4 weeks and then said a certain game wouldn't count and thus meaning SBW would miss the first Bledisloe Cup game. The decision was appealed. A new panel comprising 'non' Australians decided the certain game did count and the rest is history and SBW can play.

Guns, while you're on your high horse, you'll be glad to know those same 3x Australians let SOB off scott free for knocking a player out cold. It's great that you are so balanced

The fact that Kiwis wanted SOB sanctioned is just further evidence that Kiwis expect special treatment.

by Guest Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:22 am

Don't generalise guns

Not a good look

by No 7&1/2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:25 am

Which way around would you prefer to see the rules pushed though. You seem to be arguing both a tightening of the laws and sanctions at the same time as calling for lesser bans.

by Guest Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:32 am

The sanctions are what they are. Don't have an opinion on that. 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 8 weeks....whatever, don't care. It just needs clarity about what 'weeks' and what 'matches' means. If it's clear cut then that's the way forward.

Michael Hooper fiddled the books like SBW but the rules allow it

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/70761466/wallabies-flanker-michael-hooper-cleared-to-play-against-all-blacks-in-bledisloe-test

by No 7&1/2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:39 am

So you're happy with sob and sbw and quizzical like the rest of us.over the use of a training match.

by Guest Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:50 am

You mean am I happy that SOB didn't get carded or suspended for knocking Naholo out cold? No, I'm not happy with that process at all and the 3 blind Aussie mice need a reality check (oh wait, they got that).

Am I ok with SBW getting a red card and suspended for four 'weeks' (whatever that means). Not happy, but can accept the decision and can't argue with it.

So 7.5, what is a 'week' and what is a 'match' in rugby terms. Explain that please. Bearing in mind the independent ruling on SBW.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:55 am

Don't know. I'd be very happy for wr to look at this now and use it as an excuse to try and tighten it all up and bring consistency.

Not sure there was anything in the challenge from sob. indeed it was just a guy join a ruck not a strike. Thought Hanson said he wasn't knocked out and just taken off as a precaution? Goes back to my question which was linked to your original comment should sanctions be linked to outcome of injury. In both these cases you would.probably.have no ban as neither player failed their hia but it doesn't fit with trying to protect players does it?

by Guest Fri 04 Aug 2017, 11:13 am

Yes, WR need to clarify

Can you please show me my original comment that you are basing your question on. Because I don't know why you're asking me this question about sanctions being linked to outcome.

ps. Naholo was knocked out because I saw it on tv

by No 7&1/2 Fri 04 Aug 2017, 11:21 am

You are upset that an innocuous challenge which led to a unconcious player did not result to either a card on the day or a further suspension hence my question. As things stand the worse challenge led to less of an injury; wondering whether it should be switched to say that sbw would get less and sob would receive a ban or whether that long term works against what wr are trying to do.

Just read hanson did say naholo was knocked out now so example fits pretty well.

by Sponsored content

Day & Date	Match	Venue	Match Official	Kick Off (Local)
Week One
Saturday 19-Aug-17	Australia v New Zealand	ANZ Stadium, Sydney	Jerome Garces (FFR)	20:00
Saturday 19-Aug-17	South Africa v Argentina	Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth	Romain Poite (FFR)	17.05
Week Two
Saturday 26-Aug-17	New Zealand v Australia	Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin	Wayne Barnes (RFU)	19.35
Saturday 26-Aug-17	Argentina v South Africa	Estadio Padre Ernesto Marlearena, Salta	Pascal Gauzere (FFR)	16.40
Week Three
Saturday 09-Sep-17	Yarrow Stadium, New Plymouth	Yarrow Stadium, New Plymouth	Angus Gardner (ARU)	19.35
Saturday 09-Sep-17	Australia v South Africa	NIB Stadium, Perth	Glen Jackson (NZR)	18.00
Week Four
Saturday 16-Sep-17	New Zealand v South Africa	QBE Stadium, Albany	Nigel Owens (WRU)	19.30
Saturday 16-Sep-17	Australia v Argentina	Nib Stadium, Perth	John Lacey (IRFU)	20:00
Week Five
Saturday 30-Sep-17	South Africa v Australia	Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein	Ben O’Keeffe (NZR)	17.05
Saturday 30-Sep-17	Argentina v New Zealand	Estadio Velez Sarsfield, Buenos Aires	Jaco Peyper (SARU)	19.30
Week Six
Saturday 07-Oct-17	South Africa v New Zealand	Newlands, Cape Town	Jerome Garces (FFR)	17.05
Saturday 07-Oct-17	Argentina v Australia	Estadio Malvinas Argentinas, Mendoza	Mathieu Raynal (FFR)	19.30
Extra Bledisloe Cup
Saturday 21-Oct-17	Australia v New Zealand	Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane	Wayne Barnes (RFU)	19.00