Denis 'Machine Gun' Shapovalov

Aged 18 he just took out Nadal and with it Rafa's hope of dethroning Andy Murray from the number 1 spot.

A star is born!

We need to come up with nicknames for this guy.

Put your best creative foot forward, 606!

The Menace?

sirfredperry wrote:The Menace?

Like it

"Le Shapeau"?

If he starts splashing out with his newly-won prize money, how about "Denis Shopaholic"?

"Shapitbakova"

Well Rafa still have hope to be no.1! Reckoner talked as if Rafa has no chances anymore!

I've doubts about Shapo, his go for broke style is rather hit or miss; outside Canada, without the crowd support, he may not have his way, like in Queens this year for example. He's still a talent no doubt but whether he's like A Zverev or another Kyrgios (who imo is much more talented than Shapo) we have to wait and see. He's now at about no. 62 after this SF but whether he will build on that we have to again wait and see; he will have to defend these points come next year, so he has to gather enough points from now on to not suffer a big ranking drop.

I'll adopt a wait and see attitude about Shapo, after seeing Tomic, Dimi and Kygrios. Only A Zverev really lives up to expectations; Zverev
may win his second masters this year, at Montreal and may as a result ends the year in top four.

BLB, all you really needed to say was "Shapo", this is a thread about giving the kid a nickname.

I think "Shap" or "Shapster" is also acceptable.

Shapo it shall be, though I find this a pointless thread!

Thanks for the vote of confidence BLB!

You're welcome reckon, though I don't think that's a vote of confidence.

I have nothing but appreciation for your thoughtful contributions to this thread.

I am a bit skeptical of Shapovalov and his long-term prospects. One tourney is too small a metric for the future road to greatness. Donskoy beat Federer, Shapovalov beat Nadal (in his first HC outing), let us wait for the future.

The road is littered with Nishikori, Raonic, Tomic, Kyrgios, Dimitrov, Vesley, Thiem. Unless the youngsters can show consistency, anointing a new prince-to-be is perhaps premature. Zverev seems to be a better candidate for future greatness, provided the work ethic continues with the consistent results.

He does have potential, of which there is no doubt, as many others before him. Let us see what happens at the Vancouver Challenger.

laverfan wrote:I am a bit skeptical of Shapovalov and his long-term prospects. One tourney is too small a metric for the future road to greatness. Donskoy beat Federer, Shapovalov beat Nadal (in his first HC outing), let us wait for the future.

The road is littered with Nishikori, Raonic, Tomic, Kyrgios, Dimitrov, Vesley, Thiem. Unless the youngsters can show consistency, anointing a new prince-to-be is perhaps premature. Zverev seems to be a better candidate for future greatness, provided the work ethic continues with the consistent results.

He does have potential, of which there is no doubt, as many others before him. Let us see what happens at the Vancouver Challenger.

Spot on laverfan. One swallow doesn't make a summer and all that. This may be no more than the youngster under no pressure whatsoever with home support rising to the occasion and getting a result. Lets wait and make a judgement at the end of the year - my guess is not much more will be heard about him in the coming months.

Shaps has game, he won junior Wimbledon last year and is shooting up the rankings on the senior tour with an interesting, non roadrunner game.

"No pressure whatsoever" - really? To be a tennis hope for your country is full of pressure, just ask Murray!

I don't see the need to wait for results to show appreciation for the youngster's evident talent and say that I see something special in this kid's game.

reckoner wrote:Shaps has game, he won junior Wimbledon last year and is shooting up the rankings on the senior tour with an interesting, non roadrunner game.

"No pressure whatsoever" - really? To be a tennis hope for your country is full of pressure, just ask Murray!

I don't see the need to wait for results to show appreciation for the youngster's evident talent and say that I see something special in this kid's game.

Yes no pressure as he was playing Rafa Nadal. Even the most optimistic Canadian couldn't have been expecting a win. Anyway we shall see.

We'll have to disagree that playing an all time great comes with no pressure.

reckoner wrote:We'll have to disagree that playing an all time great comes with no pressure.

Indeed we will as expectation was next to zero for the teenager. He had nothing to lose and all to gain. Point is this win is one win. Donskoy, Vesely, Stakhovsky etc etc have all beaten an all-time great but that did not ensure they were destined for great things so I see this win as nothing different.

Put simply expectation <> pressure - we disagree, move on.

A bright star in the firmament burns out quickly, but a steady star burns much longer. I want to see what he does for 2017, before we start predicting. Raonic was the great Canadian hope, before this one.

I would like to see new blood come up. Zverev, IMO, is the closest right now, with Thiem the second.

Shapovalov in now 18y4m old (well, will be in a couple of days).  That is awful young to be in M1000 SF.  In fact, if I understand ATP site correctly, he is the youngest ever quarter-finalist in an M1000 event (apparently 1990 is the beginning of history there).

I compared him to some other current players - the big four and some other notables that were spoken of highly when young - to see how old they were when they first reached SF at either M1000 or a slam.  Here goes (some numbers may be slightly off):

Shapovalov:  18y 4m

Big 4:
Rafa: 18y 9m (Miami '05)
Andy: 19y 3m (Canada '06)
Nole: 19y 9m (IW '07)
Fed: 20y 7m (Miami '02)

Some others:
Gasquet: 18y 9m (MC, '05)
Monfils: 19y 8m (Rome '06)
Zverev: 20y (Rome '17)
Del Potro: 20y 5m (Miami '09)
Kyrgios: 20y 10m (Miami '16)
Raonic: 22y 7m (Canada '13)
Thiem: 22y 9m (RG, '16)
Dimitrov: 23y (Rome '14)
Tomic: na
Coric: na

Shapovalov youngest of them all - about five months ahead of Rafa and Gasquet.  Too soon to tell if his career will be more Rafaesque or Gasquetesque, but the start is as good as anyone's.

Also, noteworthy that both Zverev and Shapovalov (and even Kyrgios) have been able to break through at a young age - similar to Rafa/Andy/Nole/Fed before them, suggesting yet again that the dearth of successful youngsters in-between is due to lack of talent as much as due to changes in playing conditions.

'Due to change in playing conditions'??

I don't understand this, those players from Raonic's generation (i.e. born in the 1990s), effectively grow up to play from the baseline and on the already slowed down courts (they should be playing in the juniors during mid 2000s when the courts were already slowed down).

If anything, Rafa, Djoko and Murray grew up and played juniors during late 1990s to early 2000s when the courts weren't that slow yet. They should be the ones having to adjust to different court conditions when switching from juniors to seniors circuit. I do feel that may be why both Rafa and Djoko started out being more aggressive players but later on switched to play the defense/offense style of tennis as they reached their prime (late 2000s/early 2010s). I do understand Fed and his peers were the ones in the Senior Circuit having to switch from S&V and adapt to baseline play due to surface changes but Rafa's generation of players had to adjust to playing from quicker to slower surfaces too from junior to Senior Circuit.

I think Raonic's gen and the gen after that won't need to make such adjustments from junior to senior as they played on slowed down surfaces all along. The younger gen players are taller and are now playing one particular common brand of tennis, that of serving big and hitting hard short point tennis. They're not really good at the net but could just blast winners from the baseline to blow opponents off the court. I'm not excited over such brand of tennis and will be sad when Rafa, Djoko and Murray are gone from the tour, as they're the ones who could counter this latest trend in men's tennis with their crazy defensive skills plus very good offensive skills.

I see big tall players blasting each other off, from the baseline playing short points (five shots or less) tennis, going forward. Not looking forward to that kind of tennis.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:

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I see big tall players blasting each other off, from the baseline playing short points (five shots or less) tennis,  going forward.  Not looking forward to that kind of tennis.

I actually like to see aggression rewarded (although in saying that, I don't include outright serve-fests - which in times past often characterised some of Sampras's matches, ie when he came up occasionally against another really big server).

I'm wondering how many people are desperately keen to watch two guys slugging it out again for six hours, just waiting to see who wilts first ....... à la Aussie Open Final 2012 ?  Maybe that sort of stuff appeals to you Blb .....?? It sure helps to kill a lot of time ! Not the sport's finest 'moment' for me.

PeopLe tried to rave about that 6hr final as it was going on but by the end even the commentators sounded bored.

Now hardly any one mentions it as one of the truly great finals

Indeed.  How could you not be bored, as the hours went by. It was all rather tedious eventually !

lags72 wrote:Indeed.  How could you not be bored, as the hours went by. It was all rather tedious eventually !

Beauty and entertainment is in the eye of the beholder. This has been discussed before on here. Some like the long rallies in tennis and some don't. Akin to how people prefer 20-20 cricket to test matches and vice versa. Some people love knockout punchers in boxing others prefer counter-punchers and you could go throughout all the sports for differing styles and what people prefer.

Well I hear what you say CC.

For me it was the lack of dramatic contrast in tactics & playing styles which eventually drained any sense of excitement. More of an ironman endurance challenge than a tennis match.

lags72 wrote:Well I hear what you say CC.

For me it was the lack of dramatic contrast in tactics & playing styles which eventually drained any sense of excitement. More of an ironman endurance challenge than a tennis match.

Fair enough. The gasps from the crowd at the stadium during the rallies say they enjoyed it as they witnessed some great returns of great shots. You can't please everyone.

This thread has gone completely off topic.

How about "D-Shap"?

Reckon, it's the contrast of styles that's exciting. I see Djoko vs Delpo, Djoko vs Kygrios, Murray vs Stan, Rafa vs Fed being exciting. How often Djoko, Murray and Rafa played each other? Only in the later rounds; to get there they have to beat the hard hitters, the big servers, the all rounders, the S&V players along the way.

In future we have hard hitters from R1 to final, I certainly don't enjoy that kind of tennis. I think reckoner only watches finals?

BLB you are off-topic, don't know anything about me and perhaps should have a think about why your posts are rude and awkward.

I'm settling on "Le Shapo" - a nod to his bilingual home.

People are just unfair to quote one long final between two of them! Do we see them playing long finals after that? Certainly not. Their USO finals are great, I don't think they're worse than Fed vs Djoko finals. Murray vs Djoko may be more monotonous I accept that.

I certainly like to see players think on the court and counters whatever aggression that come their ways, and not just whacking hard at the ball all day long with no strategy but to use raw power to win, that just bored me to death! Contrast of styles is the key, not just one single style of play all tournament long! The trio will provide those contrasts to the big hitters, not big hitters vs fellow big hitters!

Nah reckoner, mine wasn't rude, not unlike your assumption that I like watching 'boring' long rallies!

This thread has gone off topic since long time ago. I'll stop here.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Nah reckoner, mine wasn't rude, not unlike your assumption that I like watching 'boring' long rallies!

This thread has gone off topic since long time ago. I'll stop here.

Eh?

BLB I look forward to your apology when you scroll up and realise I have said nothing of the sort.

Fun fact - the Machine Gun won more top level matches at this tournament that his career up to this point. Still, he saved a match point in the first round. It could have been very different. He does look good, and hit some great shots, the forehand, with its big windup, has some serious power. But there were also some shots against Rafa where he seriously snatched at and were very wild. Overall, it was a very good win though, I don't think Rafa played that badly.

I agree @HB.

He beat Del Potro en route to Nadal as well, Le Shap-a-tat-tat is definitely a talent to watch.

Reckoner, the last paragraph of your post @3.30am, I see that not unlike what I post about you watching finals...

I don't think I need to apologize for anything, if you think what you post about me is ok.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Reckoner, the last paragraph of your post @3.30am, I see that not unlike what I post about you watching finals...

I don't think I need to apologize for anything, if you think what you post about me is ok.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. What post at 3.30 am?

BLB: I think you may have confused reckoner with lags.

So maybe you want to apologize to reckoner and instead direct your fire at lags.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:'Due to change in playing conditions'??

I agree with you.  That was exactly my point.  There is a school of thought that suggests that the reason why Raonic etc have not succeeded at a younger age is not so much due to their lesser quality but rather due to changes in something about tennis that make it hard for youngsters to succeed.  I was using Shapovalov (and also Zverev and Kyrgios) as a counterpoint to that view.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:I see big tall players blasting each other off

If you do not like tall players, I have a new youngster to recommend to you.  His name is Denis Shapovalov and at six feet he is shorter than anyone in the Big 4.

"Shapo" works just fine for me.

Ok thanks SB for the correction.

And Reckoner, my apology, I got the wrong person, it's not you who posted the comment at 3.30am.

Allow me to go off topic again.

As I said, it's the contrast of styles that's interesting and exciting. People keep talking about slug feast but hello, how many slug feasts we have between Djoko/Rafa or Rafa/Murray? One or two maybe? Compared to how many serve feast these days? Plenty!

I certainly don't like seeing just aggression in tennis and nothing else! Certainly there should be ways to counter aggressions thus making the aggression more challenging; likewise for the defending against such aggression. I certainly don't like seeing two guys whacking hard at the ball against each other all day long and the one who whacks harder wins at the end of the day!

When I brought out Djoko, Rafa, Murray, people quickly jumped into comclusions that means slug feasts but the tour doesn't just consist of three guys playing against each other! They have to play against guys like Fed, Stan, Delpo, Cilic, and the younger guys like Raonic, Kei, Demi, Goffin, and the later batch of hard hitters cum big servers. It's really unfair to brand the three of them as sluggers, when they are just so good in every aspect of their game - they can play from the baseline, come forward to the net, have deft touches at the net with good volleying skillls, good court craft, great athletic abilities, good tennis brain, etc and etc.

We won't see players like them anymore after they're gone, with the younger generation(s) more interested in whacking at the ball and go for quick winners; no wonder the Atp is thinking of shortening tennis matches, as younger players (and younger spectators) don't have the patience to watch long or longer matches.

SB, Shapo still has plenty of room for improvements before we can call him the real deal. He's not that good at the net, rarely comes forward. I don't remember seeing him hitting a good drop shot, a botch one or two maybe. He's blasting winners from the baseline, rarely changing paces or changing the pattern of his play.

He's still unpolished, his style is going for broke, hits or misses. I'll like to bring out young Djoko, who's more aggressive than the Djoko of now. When Djoko was younger, he played paint the line tennis - he's more aggressive and taking more risks and painted the lines to win the points. What he had was aggression plus precision. His precision was just so good, no wonder Fed was pissed with Djoko's 'lucky' shot at MP at the USO SF one year, saying guys don't usually trained or practiced hitting shots that way, but that's just Djoko's style. If Shapo could play with more controlled aggression, perhaps he could win his matches without having to go the distance all the time.

Comparing him to young Rafa, young Rafa had better court sense, knew when to step inside the court, and when to move to the net (with successes in winning the points there).

Shapo still has some ways to go to reach his potential (of course he's only 18, we shouldn't ask for too much from him) but he's certainly someone to watch out for besides A Zverev and also some of the other young players.

@BLB your apology seems completely insincere.

It doesn't at all make up for:

- calling this thread pointless and then insisting on derailing it. Why not start your own thread if this one is so pointless?

- petty point scoring after a forum member revealed the death of her husband. How inconsiderate and out of proportion can you be?

- attacking me personally because of someone else's post. Can't you read?

- being boring with your long winded torrent of Rafa worship. It's like listening to a double glazing salesman.

Seriously mate, it might be an idea spend some time improving your written communication and your manners rather than rehashing the same old rubbish about Rafa, eh?

Reckoner,

1) I'm not the only one derailing your thread.
2) I've apologized, what more you want me to do? Or you want me to retract what I posted earlier on? Sure, but I just don't know how to delete those posts, just tell me how to do it and I'll just delete them.
3) I've stopped posting on that thread once I'd realized about Haddie's loss; there were others who continued doing so, not my fault;
4) it's not about Rafa but about the tour in general, as I see it;
5) there're no shortage of Fed worship here but I guess that's OK.
6) I'll avoid posting on your thread in future.

From my perspective BLB you posted a one line apology followed by many paragraphs further expounding your views. It seemed self serving and insincere.

If you do object to a post from me do me the courtesy of quoting it rather than referring to a time as people on this forum are in different time zones. What I mean by this is the post you're referring to appears on my screen as being posted at 6.30 not 3.30.

Thanks for clarifying the situation by the way @SB.

I'm not asking you to stop posting but to consider the relevance of what you are posting. You're right, you're not the only person to derail this thread, but you were unfairly having a go at me, so I responded to you.

Having taken a deep breath and reading your post above I do think you're being sincere in your apology, so let's try to put it behind us.  

Reckoner, the problem is I somehow couldn't copy the original quote into my post, and that's why I only posted the time but I read the name of poster wrongly to start with. I'm sorry about that!

I don't mean to be rude, but in lags post (I get it correct now, it's lags), he mentioned that maybe seeing who wilts first in a six hour match appeals to me, and I feel that's really something that upsets me and hence my response (to you wrongly) that maybe you only watched finals?

I don't mean to detail your thread after our short exchanges earlier on but seeing others posting here about Shapo and comparing him to other ATGs when they were younger, it got me started about comparing his game with the current top players and their styles, etc.

Seriously, I really don't know how to copy quotes over to my posts, Im using Iphone for posting, can you or anyone here let me know how to do so? That'll save me some troubles in future. Thanks.

I don't have an iPhone I'm afraid, Android user here.

Perhaps a mod can help, though they are probably using Nokia 3310s...