Rhys Webb to miss out on Wales selection under new rule

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41547139

Wales scrum-half Rhys Webb will be ineligible to play for Wales next season under a new rule brought in by the Welsh Rugby Union.

The WRU has changed its senior international selection policy (SPSP) for players based outside Wales.

In future any player taking up a new contract not with a Welsh region must have won 60 caps to be eligible to play for Wales.

Webb has signed to play for Toulon next season and has won just 28 Wales caps.

Players who are already playing outside Wales will be exempt.

However, this exemption will not extend to new contracts that have already been agreed by players for the 2017-18 season.

Webb's Ospreys half-back partner Dan Biggar will join Northampton next season. He currently has 56 caps and unless injury intervenes is likely to pass the 60-cap mark this season before heading for England.

WRU group chief executive Martyn Phillips said: "Whatever the contract the player is in, that's the contract that in effect is protected.

"When that contract expires, if the player has less than 60 caps and they're playing outside of Wales then they wouldn't be eligible for selection.

"If they've got 60 or more caps and they're outside of Wales then they would be.

"The revamped policy will be reviewed periodically but, fundamentally, if you have less than 60 caps and you leave Wales then you won't be selected by your country again until you return.

"In the spirit of absolute fairness we will start anew from Monday 16th October 2017 and give those players who have existing contracts outside of Wales the chance to come back on completion of those contracts, before this new policy effects them."

The new policy is similar to the model in Australia, where players who have won at least 60 Test caps and played domestic rugby for seven years can be selected regardless of any move abroad.

Wales' previous SPSP, also known as 'Gatland's Law', allowed head coach Warren Gatland to pick only four players at clubs outside Wales to play for the national side.

That quota was due to drop to just two wildcard picks for the 2019-20 season.

"The existing policy worked to an extent but it hasn't worked well enough. It was quite complicated so we want to make it a little bit simpler," Phillips added.

"It had so many clauses in it to try and cater for every eventuality."

Gatland welcomed the change, although the New Zealander - whose contract ends in 2019 after the next World Cup - admits he would rather have a free hand on selection.

"For me as a national coach, if I was being totally selfish then no I wouldn't have a policy," Gatland said.

"But it's not about what's best for me and the national team, it's about what's best for Welsh rugby.

"The best thing for Welsh rugby and for the Union to support the regions is how do we try and keep a number of the best players in Wales for as long as we possibly can.

"But we know we're under pressure from market forces."

Players who will benefit from the Test selection change include Northampton wing George North, who has won 69 caps, Bath back-row Taulupe Faletau (66) and Harlequins centre Jamie Roberts (93).

The likes of Bath fly-half Rhys Priestland, who has 48 caps, will also benefit for the moment although to continue to be eligible after his current deal with the English Premeirship side would need to return to a Welsh region if he has not amassed 60 caps.

An uncapped player may also be selected for Wales at any time from any club, but likewise must sign to play in Wales upon the completion of their current contract in order to continue to be selected.

Although reading the article I'm not sure the headline is correct ?

*edit*

It is

Webb has signed to play for Toulon next season and has won just 28 Wales caps.

Players who are already playing outside Wales will be exempt.

However, this exemption will not extend to new contracts that have already been agreed by players for the 2017-18 season

They will loop hole whoever they want. Pretty much have by saying if youre already outside of Wales your fine.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:They will loop hole whoever they want.  Pretty much have by saying if youre already outside of Wales your fine.

The Roberts law.

Although Webb is buggered - though apparently he knew about this new law when signing.

All I want to know is how 'senior international selection policy' becomes SPSP.

The big question is whether playing for Wales is still a big enough attraction/deterrent if clubs swoop for a player. As wages at overseas clubs escalate there will be a tipping point where it might not be deemed worth it staying at a Welsh club on low wages when a player can make double/treble that in England/France.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:All I want to know is how 'senior international selection policy' becomes SPSP.

It's Senior Player Selection Policy.

The scales have fallen from my eyes!

This is the Dwayne Peel incident all over again.

Rhys Webb has his say, taken from WOL:-

Unhappy Rhys Webb speaks out and insists he didn't know Toulon move would stop him playing for Wales.

Scrum-half says playing for his country means a huge amount to him.

Rhys Webb says he is very disappointed he won’t be able to play for Wales from next season and insists he didn’t know that joining Toulon would rule him out.

The Ospreys scrum-half will be ineligible under the new selection policy which is being brought in to replace Gatland’s Law.


From next season, exiled players will only be able to represent Wales if they have won 60 or more caps.

It’s impossible for Webb to reach that threshold in time as he only has 28 Welsh caps to date.

So, when he links up with Toulon on a three-year deal next season that will mean a halt to his international career.

Only players already based outside of Wales - such as 43-cap Saracens wing Liam Williams - will be exempt from the policy, for the length of their current deal.

Reacting to the bombshell announcement, Webb said: “I am very disappointed at the news because I love playing for Wales. It means a huge amount to me.“I didn’t know the full implications when I agreed to join Toulon because the change in the selection policy came out after I signed.

“I have given ten years service to the Ospreys and Welsh rugby and have picked up injuries along the way. I would have hoped that would have been taken into consideration.

“I still very much want to play for Wales this season and hope I can gain selection for the autumn international squad.”

Wales coach Warren Gatland has spoken about Webb at today’s press conference where the new policy as unveiled.

He suggested it was still possible for the 28-year-old to extract himself from his Toulon deal.

“Rhys can still get out of the contract. He’s only signed a letter of agreement,” he said.

“I had a good conversation with him. He’s 28, he’s had a lot of injuries. He may have made that decision whether he was captured or not.

“He’s got to make his own decision. I don’t know whether you should talk to his agent.

“We spoke to Derwyn (Jones) to say this policy was potentially coming. I’ve spoken to Rhys and he spoke to Rhys.

“It was a decision about his future. For him to get to 60 caps might take three years and he may not get that opportunity again.

“We’ve got to respect and understand that.”

Was he offered a central contract?

cascough wrote:Was he offered a central contract?

Is there any money in the pot for these anymore? Too many unnecessary players on the NDC list clogging up an already shallow pocket.

So was he? Or wasn't he?

I ask because if he was, I'm not quite sure where he is coming from with the *I didn't know this would jeopardise my international future* line. Especially given that the rule dropped to 2 wildcard picks pre world cup.

I don't begrudge him maximising his wages, just wondering how this scenario was a surprise to him.

cascough wrote:So was he? Or wasn't he?

I ask because if he was, I'm not quite sure where he is coming from with the *I didn't know this would jeopardise my international future* line. Especially given that the rule dropped to 2 wildcard picks pre world cup.

I don't begrudge him maximising his wages, just wondering how this scenario was a surprise to him.

Doesn't matter if he was or wasn't. If he was, it has to be a competitive offer. There's no way they made an offer competitive with what Toulon offer.

What has happened is that the rules have changed post his decision, and Gatland wants him to back out of a pre-agreement. When he made his decision he would remain eligible.

munkian wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:They will loop hole whoever they want.  Pretty much have by saying if youre already outside of Wales your fine.

The Roberts law.

Although Webb is buggered - though apparently he knew about this new law when signing.

I think Webb thought he was such a shoo in at 9 that backs would be rubbed and wheels greased and they would make an exception for him....I imagine his agent isn't taking too many calls today

they'll figure it out though, much as I like Davies we need Webb at 9

All discussing Webb and I agree he will be a massive loss. But what this ruling will do is open the doors not close them.

Will Alun wyn stay now if a big pay check is put in front of him. What about warburton, what about all others who have the 60 caps.

I think this is more likely to open the doors rather than close them.

No9 wrote:All discussing Webb and I agree he will be a massive loss. But what this ruling will do is open the doors not close them.

Will Alun wyn stay now if a big pay check is put in front of him. What about warburton, what about all others who have the 60 caps.

I think this is more likely to open the doors rather than close them.

Perhaps it will, but with the players you’ve mentioned does it matter? Each have replacements ready to step up and AWJ deserves a big pay cheque - I wouldn’t be surprised to see him at Sarries next year carrying more young English locks again . A good thing is it probably keeps Roberts, Priestland, etc away from Welsh teams.

munkian wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:They will loop hole whoever they want.  Pretty much have by saying if youre already outside of Wales your fine.

The Roberts law.

Although Webb is buggered - though apparently he knew about this new law when signing.

Ah this generations Dwayne Peel. The example to others, before they bend the rules again

Interesting to hear that Gatland isn't keen for this, or for any policy that potentially limits his ability to select who he likes. I always sort of thought that Gatland was behind these policies to a certain extent.

"For me as a national coach, if I was being totally selfish then no I wouldn't have a policy," Gatland said.

Griff wrote:Interesting to hear that Gatland isn't keen for this, or for any policy that potentially limits his ability to select who he likes. I always sort of thought that Gatland was behind these policies to a certain extent.

"For me as a national coach, if I was being totally selfish then no I wouldn't have a policy," Gatland said.

Prefers the players to be Wales based of course due to access.

The policy is right the implementation clumsy at best but its a clear shout out to the regions. What they should have done is kept the 4 wildcards and then introduced the new rules after 2019 RWC. Massively dumb move.

Or is it simply the mystery backer for the NDCs has pulled out (or the money is gone), so they need something to keep players in Wales?

There are going to be stormy waters ahead, for all the Celtic nations, because nothing we can offer, even with the help of the unions can match what the rich owners of clubs from England and France can offer.

Our only hope is, that World Rugby introduces something similar as they do in football with the FFP (Fifa Fair Play) rule, where clubs are not allowed to spend beyond their means.

LordDowlais wrote:There are going to be stormy waters ahead, for all the Celtic nations, because nothing we can offer, even with the help of the unions can match what the rich owners of clubs from England and France can offer.

Our only hope is, that World Rugby introduces something similar as they do in football with the FFP (Fifa Fair Play) rule, where clubs are not allowed to spend beyond their means.

You mean like a salary cap, that might work!

I actually think Wales didn't go far enough with the policy. If and I say if, the goal really is to support the regions then a play at home policy is the only way to go. There shouldn't have been any loopholes and no scapegoats. Just one simple rule for everyone - no exceptions.

But the only way a play in wales to play for wales policy can work if the regions agree to no none welsh qualified players for wales with a maximum of 1 project player to qualify for wales moving forward. At the end of the day the regions will need to produce the players in order for wales to succeed internationally.

Basically a New Zealand/Ireland model.

Welshmushroom wrote:Basically a New Zealand/Ireland model.

/England.

What I don't understand is why is there a clamour for Welsh players to move out of Wales and yet if you look at Scotland they've kept most of their main players in Scotland.

Even Duncan Taylor who plays outside Scotland wasn't produced by the Scottish system.


Also obviously Moriarty and Francis not produced by the Welsh system.


Surely it's fair that the likes of Tomas Young,Moriarty and Francis stay in England?

Beshocked, it's to do with having control of and access to players by the Welsh management. The WRU wants more time with them than the official international windows allow, as does Eddie Jones in England. They can get that through the agreements in place and funding to the clubs for extras release (the 'RSA' in Wales, and whatever it's called in England). But players outside Wales are kept to the strict international windows unless they can get it written into their contracts (which clubs are not keen on) so ex-pats miss some of the extra sessions, etc.

So if England have more access to players and more time with them than Wales then our coaches will perceive that to be a disadvantage. So we want as many at home as possible to allow the extra training camps, etc.

Welshmushroom wrote:Basically a New Zealand/Ireland model.

Ireland do not have that policy.

Have you ever heard of the "project player" policy they have over there ?

I think it's incredibly harsh on Webb. For me, any new policy like this needs to be announced quite far in advance so that players have a good chance to consider it before a potential move. This policy coming in a few days after his move and there not being a caveat for players who had already signed abroad is really harsh I feel.

Griff wrote:I think it's incredibly harsh on Webb.  For me, any new policy like this needs to be announced quite far in advance so that players have a good chance to consider it before a potential move.  This policy coming in a few days after his move and there not being a caveat for players who had already signed abroad is really harsh I feel.

I do wonder if there's more to come out about this. Gatland said Derwyn Jones knew this new policy was likely to come in, and if he encouraged Webb to sign regardless, then Webb should be looking for a new agent for starters.

Griff that's a good point but surely Wales should stick more to the international window like everyone else?

I know Wales want to play an extra game but it leads to more complications.

I also think there is a difference between playing in England and France too though I know people like to lump them together.

England is obviously closer to Wales.

The French play more games.

Depending on the club I think a player can improve more in England.


In the case of Webb going to Toulon, I don't think Toulon will necessarily help him develop as much as a player as going to one of the top English clubs...

Gatland might have been more sympathetic if Webb went to Wasps though...


If you lose a player like Roberts or L.Williams or Faletau, it opens up a spot for someone in the regions.

Ultimately player strength will come down to development of players whether that's in Wales or outside.


I think a bigger problem for Wales would be North.

Wales couldn't do a fully Welsh region only selection policy I don't think. Players they'd miss next year:

Moriarty
Faletau
Webb
Biggar
North
Williams

Also, Roberts, Priestland.

beshocked wrote:Griff that's a good point but surely Wales should stick more to the international window like everyone else?

I know Wales want to play an extra game but it leads to more complications.

I also think there is a difference between playing in England and France too though I know people like to lump them together.

England is obviously closer to Wales.

The French play more games.

Depending on the club I think a player can improve more in England.


In the case of Webb going to Toulon, I don't think Toulon will necessarily help him develop as much as a player as going to one of the top English clubs...

Gatland might have been more sympathetic if Webb went to Wasps though...


If you lose a player like Roberts or L.Williams or Faletau, it opens up a spot for someone in the regions.

Ultimately player strength will come down to development of players whether that's in Wales or outside.


I think a bigger problem for Wales would be North.

I'm not 100% sure but I think England have negotiated release of players outside of the international window too, haven't they? So Eddie Jones is able to get English-based players earlier and for longer than normal. Gatland might have started this a few years ago in all fairness, but it might now be a case of (literally) keeping up with the Joneses!

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:Griff that's a good point but surely Wales should stick more to the international window like everyone else?

I know Wales want to play an extra game but it leads to more complications.

I also think there is a difference between playing in England and France too though I know people like to lump them together.

England is obviously closer to Wales.

The French play more games.

Depending on the club I think a player can improve more in England.


In the case of Webb going to Toulon, I don't think Toulon will necessarily help him develop as much as a player as going to one of the top English clubs...

Gatland might have been more sympathetic if Webb went to Wasps though...


If you lose a player like Roberts or L.Williams or Faletau, it opens up a spot for someone in the regions.

Ultimately player strength will come down to development of players whether that's in Wales or outside.


I think a bigger problem for Wales would be North.

I'm not 100% sure but I think England have negotiated release of players outside of the international window too, haven't they? So Eddie Jones is able to get English-based players earlier and for longer than normal. Gatland might have started this a few years ago in all fairness, but it might now be a case of (literally) keeping up with the Joneses!

I don't think its a case of keeping up with England.  Regional rugby brought in the limitations to international rest periods.  The EPS was introduced to directly counter the issue as England players did not have the same protection as Welsh & Irish internationals.  They also now operate on the same basis that England internationals have rest periods and game limits introduced to keep them fitter for international duty.  The only difference is England don't select outside of England any longer.

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:Griff that's a good point but surely Wales should stick more to the international window like everyone else?

I know Wales want to play an extra game but it leads to more complications.

I also think there is a difference between playing in England and France too though I know people like to lump them together.

England is obviously closer to Wales.

The French play more games.

Depending on the club I think a player can improve more in England.


In the case of Webb going to Toulon, I don't think Toulon will necessarily help him develop as much as a player as going to one of the top English clubs...

Gatland might have been more sympathetic if Webb went to Wasps though...


If you lose a player like Roberts or L.Williams or Faletau, it opens up a spot for someone in the regions.

Ultimately player strength will come down to development of players whether that's in Wales or outside.


I think a bigger problem for Wales would be North.

I'm not 100% sure but I think England have negotiated release of players outside of the international window too, haven't they? So Eddie Jones is able to get English-based players earlier and for longer than normal. Gatland might have started this a few years ago in all fairness, but it might now be a case of (literally) keeping up with the Joneses!

I think he might have done, I think it has gone on since the start of the EPS which would be all the way back in Johnson's days.

There are other perks to the EPS though, most notably being able to manage a players workload and impose rest weeks on players, as well as capping their overall minutes played in a season. England just wouldn't have the same control over a player if he's playing abroad.

Scottrf wrote:Wales couldn't do a fully Welsh region only selection policy I don't think. Players they'd miss next year:

Moriarty
Faletau
Webb
Biggar
North
Williams

Also, Roberts, Priestland.

All of the players you listed had to start out somewhere.  Everyone of them replaced players that had either reputation or experience on their side.  No one player is indispensable.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of these players get the same treatment in England as their English international counterparts.  In other words all of them will be expected to play if fit.  If international rugby has shown us anything over the last decade is that at the highest level you cannot compete overplaying rugby players if you goal is to become the best in the world.  

I would love to see wales win a rugby world cup one day.  I believe keeping players at home, keeping them well looked after and limiting game time will be key to that success.  I also think that with just 4 teams a better team & player understanding is developed as they play with some of those internationals on a regular basis.  

National sides will always end up losing players to the English and French leagues moving forward.  That can't be avoided.  But are these players irreplaceable?  No.  In truth though the only way that can occur is if the regions really do help develop players.  That involves giving youngsters opportunities and making sure there are proper succession plans in place.  Something which in fairness as a whole the regions have been fairly terrible at since inception.  Hopefully though they can sort this out in the long term which could lead to regional success as well.

Griff wrote:Interesting to hear that Gatland isn't keen for this, or for any policy that potentially limits his ability to select who he likes. I always sort of thought that Gatland was behind these policies to a certain extent.

"For me as a national coach, if I was being totally selfish then no I wouldn't have a policy," Gatland said.

In fairness though it might have helped him get used to it when/if he ever coaches New Zealand.

Martin Williams pointed out that the new policy might run into problems where there is a glut of players below the 60 cap mark in one position. He was wondering which regions will have the funds, and also space on the roster, to bring Thomas Young and Ross Moriarty back.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Wales couldn't do a fully Welsh region only selection policy I don't think. Players they'd miss next year:

Moriarty
Faletau
Webb
Biggar
North
Williams

Also, Roberts, Priestland.

All of the players you listed had to start out somewhere.  Everyone of them replaced players that had either reputation or experience on their side.  No one player is indispensable.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of these players get the same treatment in England as their English international counterparts.  In other words all of them will be expected to play if fit.  If international rugby has shown us anything over the last decade is that at the highest level you cannot compete overplaying rugby players if you goal is to become the best in the world.  

I would love to see wales win a rugby world cup one day.  I believe keeping players at home, keeping them well looked after and limiting game time will be key to that success.  I also think that with just 4 teams a better team & player understanding is developed as they play with some of those internationals on a regular basis.  

National sides will always end up losing players to the English and French leagues moving forward.  That can't be avoided.  But are these players irreplaceable?  No.  In truth though the only way that can occur is if the regions really do help develop players.  That involves giving youngsters opportunities and making sure there are proper succession plans in place.  Something which in fairness as a whole the regions have been fairly terrible at since inception.  Hopefully though they can sort this out in the long term which could lead to regional success as well.

I'd say Biggar,Faletau and Williams are pretty difficult to replace at the moment.

beshocked wrote:

I'd say Biggar,Faletau and Williams are pretty difficult to replace at the moment.

I'll give you Faletau as there currently isn't anyone in form playing for the Regions. Long Term though if Moriaty does head to the Scarlets that would be your replacement.

Biggar hasn't been the inform No 10 in Wales so far this season. If form is what (and should) warrant selection you would probably be picking Patchell ahead of him currently.

Williams is playing really well. But assuming he wasn't available you probably be looking at the form home based players off Steff Evans, Halfpenny and Amos. Both wings scoring tries and Halfpenny would be the kicking option assuming Patchell started at 10.

If we are being brutally honest Gatland hasn't historically rewarded regional form the way he should have the last couple of seasons. Personally confidence is so crucial in my opinion and players form should always be taken into consideration. It also sends positive message to players that if they play well enough at regional level they have a realistic chance to play international rugby. There will always be those couple of players that will be selected regardless of form (key players) but as a whole form has to be rewarded or the message you are sending to your current crop of internationals is that their form at the regions is largely irrelevant. That breeds laziness and does not help drive standards in regional rugby.

Bottom line - Dan Carter probably was the best 10 to play the game. Will it stop New Zealand winning another World Cup. Nope. There is always another guy waiting in the wings for a chance.

Moriarty is so far behind faletau as an 8.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Moriarty is so far behind faletau as an 8.

Well, he's not an 8, he can't carry.

Exactly. He's a good 6. Thought from my admittedly limited viewing I'm sure compared to some people shingler is brilliant and I have no idea why he hasn't got a tonne of caps by now.

They seem to be talking about it on 5live tonight.

I think whats being missed that even without this rule change and the fact that Wales would only have had 2 wildcards for the world cup and given the players not in Wales he essentially retired himself by signing for Toulon. So I know he was on there complaining but surely even before he must have known it was the end of his wales caps. Especially after Biggar signing for Northampton and the amount of players already captured by the old rule. So everything aside people need to stop getting carried away. He essentially ended his own international career with or without the rule change.

Maybe its just me.....

Scottrf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Moriarty is so far behind faletau as an 8.

Well, he's not an 8, he can't carry.

BS

Scottrf wrote:Wales couldn't do a fully Welsh region only selection policy I don't think. Players they'd miss next year:

Moriarty
Faletau
Webb
Biggar
North
Williams

Also, Roberts, Priestland.

Halfpenny
Amos
J Davies
Sc Williams
S Evans
Patchell
G Davies

R Evans
Owens
Lee
Aw Jones
Ball
Warburton
Tipuric
Baker

Bench: Elias, W Jones, A.N.Other, Hill, Shingler; T Williams, S Davies, Morgan

Only missing a tighthead, and that’s because I can’t temember the names of the Blues/Dragons s kids that look promising

Leon Brown has to be in.

...and it appears people still misunderstand this. As it stands we wouldn't be without any of those players bar Webb. Roberts and Priestland missing out is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Also if that list only Webb, and possibly Biggar would miss out. Won’t be available, the rest are of until their contracts are up (If they don’t get to 60 caps by then)