England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

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I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Robshaw has put the boot into yarde as well now. Doesn't sound like the type of guy that Jones would want involved. How much notice he'll take about his quins vs england behaviour is up for debate or even if he behaves like that for England. Doesn't sound good for him though.

To be frank has Jones ever cared about discipline of players when it comes to England?

No not really.

If Yarde comes back stronger from Sale, Jones will pick him.

He hasn't cared about on-field discipline. This is completely different. He sent Solomona and Tuilagi home. This is an attitude problem, not aggression.

Yes it's one thing falling foul of the officials, completely different when you are letting down your colleagues. Given Robshaw's status in the team that should be it for Yarde. It is a shame as Yarde has always had good games for EJ, but he is going to have to work very hard to get back in contention for selection.

The irony is that EJ does seem to be able to get Yarde working very hard. What I can remember is Yarde looking for work and making hard yards in traffic rather than staying on his wing.

Yarde worked hard on the pitch for both Quins and England. Work rate on the pitch was not the issue.

The issue seems to be that he's repeatedly missed or been late for training and not been able to provide an adequate explanation. This was going against Quins' disciplinary code, which had been shared with all the squad.

What seems to have happened was that the latest one was before the Wasps game, and it was no longer acceptable to John Kingston (Quins DoR). Kingston met with Yarde's agent to explain that he wouldn't be renewing Yarde's contract at the end of the year, and in the discussion that ensued they agreed to let him leave with immediate effect.

Robshaw speaking out about it gives you a measure of how angry the rest of the squad must be, and I imagine that will reflect on how Eddie views things; if I were in his shoes, I would want to see that Yarde turned things around at Sale before looking at him again.

If selected, it will be interesting to see how Hughes fares, especially as I think he's looking bigger than when selected last season. I did think at the time it looked like Jones et al had trimmed him down but now he's looking a wee bit tubby, though if anything its improved his form.
Of course with his suspension and this Portuguese jolly they might have him running laps on bread an water.
Has to be our starting 8.

kingelderfield wrote:If selected, it will be interesting to see how Hughes fares, especially as I think he's looking bigger  than when selected last season. I did think at the time it looked like Jones et al had trimmed him down but now he's looking a wee bit tubby, though if anything its improved his form.
Of course with his suspension and this Portuguese jolly they might have him running laps on bread an water.
Has to be our starting 8.

Well there is no one else with Billy out the way (and arguably Clifford out) Potential yes but not yet. Still Hughes is a pretty good substitute and his game should have developed from last year.

Big fan of Hughes and I hope he can make a impact at Int level.

He seems to have changed quite a bit as a player over the last few years. He seems to make less impact when carrying(is he being targeted more?) and less impact at the breakdown....he had the highest number of turnovers in the AP in his first year.

On the flip, he makes a lot more tackles than he used to and seems to have upped his work rate.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Big fan of Hughes and I hope he can make a impact at Int level.

He seems to have changed quite a bit as a player over the last few years. He seems to make less impact when carrying(is he being targeted more?) and less impact at the breakdown....he had the highest number of turnovers in the AP in his first year.

On the flip, he makes a lot more tackles than he used to and seems to have upped his work rate.  

Getting a long way ahead of myself, but if all goes to plan and Hughes wears the shirt well, I hope that Jones doesn't just drop Billy back in like he did last time when he returned to fitness, (was it against Ireland? probably miss-remembering) as I didn't think it helped either player and generally disrespected their efforts.

The issue is, Billy is a genuine world class player....one of the few that we have. He makes such an impact on a game, it's hard not to bring him back.

I would at some point like to see a backrow of:

6. Hughes
7. Robshaw/Underhill
8. Vuinipola

Not sure of the balance, but with two hard working locks like Launchbury/Itoje it might just work. Imagine the carrying potential in a pack of:

1. Mako/Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Hughes
7. Underhill
8. Vuinipola

Not that we'd ever see them all fit at one time!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The issue is, Billy is a genuine world class player....one of the few that we have. He makes such an impact on a game, it's hard not to bring him back.

I would at some point like to see a backrow of:

6. Hughes
7. Robshaw/Underhill
8. Vuinipola

Not sure of the balance, but with two hard working locks like Launchbury/Itoje it might just work. Imagine the carrying potential in a pack of:

1. Mako/Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Hughes
7. Underhill
8. Vuinipola

Not that we'd ever see them all fit at one time!

That is quite a lumpy back row, however with the current 8 man bench, (which is something that I think seriously contributes to the current injury dilemma) I think Jones has stolen a step with his 'finishers' concept, and so the impact of either Hughes or Vunipola is for now the way to go.

May now expected to be fit for Argentina. Good news given that his performance against them last Autumn was one of his best.

Solomona has been welcomed back with open arms despite his off field problems.

As I said discipline doesn't matter to Jones. Perhaps you could argue why should it? As long as the team does well... Jones is ultimately in a results driven role though he does need to develop too.

cascough

you make some good points and I agree, the defensive structure can help a player.

I have to say they though that despite Ashton being a good finisher for Saracens, L.Williams does seem to have added a more all round game.

Londontiger it's a difficult one. I'd like to see more of Spencer,Tompkins and Earle but the squad is so competitive.

Earle has been unfortunate with injuries. These players also aren't that old - Earle - 23, Spencer - 25, Tompkins - 22.

To be honest sometimes it comes down to being lucky/unlucky with injuries.

Kruis would likely have not broken through for England without injuries.

I think Will Fraser is one of those players who we might have been talking about as an England 7, if he hadn't had the misfortune of being struck with injury after injury.

He was a good bloke, I feel so sorry for him, he also had the misfortune of having his brother become disabled. Henry Fraser.

Obviously there's Corbisiero who could well have been challenging for the LH shirt and there's Manu who can't string a run of games together.

If discipline doesn't matter to jones why we're solomona and Tuilagi sent home?

If every a player was unlucky with injuries it was Trinder

He would have been a shoo in for the England 13 shirt.
Joseph is good but Trinder is better

No 7&1/2 wrote:If discipline doesn't matter to jones why we're solomona and Tuilagi sent home?

There is discipline and then there is discipline. Going too far in games is one issue, which EJ doesn't seem to make a lot of fuss about. The Tuilagi and Solomona thing seems to be about them behaving like 'Richards'. Stupid and worth making an example of. What Robshaw was saying with Yarde is that he was letting down his team mates. There are fine lines between all these issues but I think the last carries much greater importance within a team.

I agree. There's also the difference between punishing a player as you deem discipline important but offering opportunities to make up for it. No one has unlimited chances.

geoff999rugby wrote:If every a player was unlucky with injuries it was Trinder

He would have been a shoo in for the England 13 shirt.
Joseph is good but Trinder is better

Have to say I'm really enjoying watching Trinder at the moment - he definitely has an added something.

Obviously everyone has written him off due the number of serious injuries he's had, however I reckon if he can sustain his form and fitness then he will be in with a shout of the national squad, though obviously competition is massive for the 13 shirt with at least 6 genuine contenders.

geoff999rugby wrote:If every a player was unlucky with injuries it was Trinder

He would have been a shoo in for the England 13 shirt.
Joseph is good but Trinder is better

Trinder has been very good since coming back from latest injury - lets hope he has a decent run and Eddie keeps an eye on him.
Is he better than Joseph? Perhaps on current form, but JJ has had some pretty Stirling performances for England.

JJ has proved it on a bigger stage, so not quite in the same class for me. Tinder finally looks like he's back, has he lost a bit of pace?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:JJ has proved it on a bigger stage, so not quite in the same class for me. Tinder finally looks like he's back, has he lost a bit of pace?

My only worry with JJ is that his form seems to go up and down so much. At his best he must be up there with the best in Europe, but he also has games when he goes missing. Maybe that is a problem with perception in that he can do some very eye catching stuff but won't do it every week, so you notice when he doesn't.

I think Bath kicking the leather off the ball probably has a lot to do with Joseph's form.

I don't think he touched it vs Saints.

Heard on a Podcast (might have been eggchasers?) that Bath have had the least amount of possession of any team this year.

Least amount of possession doesn't really matter as long as you are clinical with the possession you get!


http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/telling-statistics-bath-rugbys-22-700418

Interesting stats from the Bath - Gloucester game.

Joseph had the ball a lot vs Gloucester.

geoff999rugby wrote:If every a player was unlucky with injuries it was Trinder

He would have been a shoo in for the England 13 shirt.
Joseph is good but Trinder is better

You spelt Manu wrong. What could have been but for his oh so many injuries and his inability to say no to the sauce.

I like Trinder as a player but the only time I noticed him play this season he got hammered repeatedly by Smith and Toomua vs Tigers. If he can recover his best form then the 13 spot is currently one of the positions which is up for grabs. JJ is in indifferent form and Daly is the same. Manu injured and Slade seemingly in the squad but not trusted by Eddie enough to get a run of games.

The thing about Trinder he hasn't had the same opportunity which is the whole point.

Manu in defence remains a liability - better suited to 12 I think where his power really helps
Of course that brings up the whole Ford/Farrell debate

England could do a lot worse than Farrell, Manu, Trinder for 10,12,13 going into the WC

And a lot better.

Rather than just being negative who is your preferred 10,12,13 assuming all fit ?

Ford Farrell Joseph. I'd like to see Slade get a run out at 12 or 13 though.

Ford or Farrell (Ford's kicking, at least at club level has got a lot better) Manu, Slade would be a useful combo but there are options.

I really want us to get a fit Manu back in the team but he does have a lot to prove. He's back to being a guy with a lot of potential if he can stop getting injured. We have a few of those

I'd expect Marchant to be next in line at centre...injuries though :S

geoff999rugby wrote:The thing about Trinder he hasn't had the same opportunity which is the whole point.

Manu in defence remains a liability - better suited to 12 I think where his power really helps
Of course that brings up the whole Ford/Farrell debate

England could do a lot worse than Farrell, Manu, Trinder for 10,12,13 going into the WC

It's easier to have a centre that likes to rush out the line at 13 than it is 12. You can use them to close off the route to the outside for the 10 with a rush defence. Manu also has a nice outside break and I think he makes more yards coming back on the angle than he does running at 12. If we are looking for a straight out bosh option at 12 then Manu isn't a great choice at his best he's explosive and he's better with a little space to work with. Te'o is the option if Eddie decides he wants a 12 to run through brick walls all day.

Farrell at 10 is also not an option I'm massively keen on. We saw in the Lions first test how the attack stagnated with him at 10 and how the attack flourished with him playing alongside a more attacking minded playmaker. Ford has also been in excellent form and I don't think he'll be dropped anytime soon.

Simmons is looking like an interesting player coming through. Absolutely rapid for a backrow, seen him gas a few wings.

Interestingly looking at him, he doesn't look like an 8. A bruising 12 (he has the gas) or a nuggity 7 perhaps, he looks handy at the breakdown.

It would be good to see him come off the bench in the AI on the flank and get his hands on the ball a bit.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Simmons is looking like an interesting player coming through. Absolutely rapid for a backrow, seen him gas a few wings.

Interestingly looking at him, he doesn't look like an 8. A bruising 12 (he has the gas) or a nuggity 7 perhaps, he looks handy at the breakdown.

It would be good to see him come off the bench in the AI on the flank and get his hands on the ball a bit.

I think I've seen comments where Eddie has talked about him as a blindside option. Phasing out Haskell and Robshaw for Simmons and Underhill. Would be a lot less experience but more dynamic.

Fit again Daly rejoins squad

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41879721

Watson, May and now Daly. No one wants to be left out.

A) I'm old fashioned , but I do like some power at 12. Doesn't have to be a monster or unskilled...i just like a bit of muscle there.
Problem is I can't think of an ideal player for that position that fits the bill..bar T'eo and I'm far from convinced. Shame Burrell never worked out.

B) Simmonds is flanker...but I just don't see him as an international 8 at all. He's a decent runner ( let's see how he goes in the AIs)...but Ben Currys performance this weekend was alround and outstanding. Curry is WAY ahead of underhill aswell...but I'd rather have Curry and Underhill on both flanks. Underhill can be the bosher.
Simmonds could get a run out off the bench as impact pace.

lostinwales wrote:Ford or Farrell (Ford's kicking, at least at club level has got a lot better) Manu, Slade would be a useful combo but there are options.

I really want us to get a fit Manu back in the team but he does have a lot to prove. He's back to being a guy with a lot of potential if he can stop getting injured. We have a few of those

Manu is too limited a player to be a starter. He could be a good bench player though. Against a tiring defence I can see him making some busts.

If Manu hadn't have had the injuries he could have developed as Nonu did.

We really need to forget about him now though...if he ever comes back fit and consistent then he becomes available for selection.

Exiledinborders wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Ford or Farrell (Ford's kicking, at least at club level has got a lot better) Manu, Slade would be a useful combo but there are options.

I really want us to get a fit Manu back in the team but he does have a lot to prove. He's back to being a guy with a lot of potential if he can stop getting injured. We have a few of those

Manu is too limited a player to be a starter. He could be a good bench player though. Against a tiring defence I can see him making some busts.

Manu isn't limited. He can go round or over the opposition and is quite handy at offloading from contact. He'll never be a playmaker but centre partnerships are all are out balance. Should he ever remain fit long enough his partnership with Toomua should be very good. Farrell can hopefully combine with him in a similar way for England. He ahold be returning to the Tigers team in a couple of weeks hopefully not for another false dawn.

Manu is genuine world class if he can get his fitness.

Agree on Manu, he's a genuine world class player on his day and scares teams with his power and acceleration.

I guess he's limited, as he's not amazing at everything, in the same way every player is. The only real issue Manu has is his distribution could improve, he's had enough time off to practice this anyway.

I never really bought the Manu hype. He was very good, but he had a lot to work on, particularly having more variety than just his default setting of "go through them". He was a handful, but a really switched on defender could contain him, even with a size disadvantage. That said, pull the defence slightly out of alignment and he would punch through.

But all of that is a bit irrelevant now. He's barely played in years and we have no idea what he's gained or lost in the intervening period. First he needs to get playing regularly, and then we can judge whether he still has his power and has added any guile.

Thinking of Manu as anything other than a clean slate with neither good nor bad on his record is a recipe for making bad judgements about who he is now.

Why do we struggle so much to produce a genuine 12 with power, and some skills.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why do we struggle so much to produce a genuine 12 with power, and some skills.

Sam Hill, Ollie Devoto and Henry Slade all at the Chiefs. Sam James up at Sale (like Slade he plays 10 and 13 but could comfortably slot into 12). Harry Mallinder at Saints (though he has his heart set on playing 15 sadly). We produce them it's just the Ford and Farrell combo works and has done at age level before this. Farrell is strong and aggressive in defence and between the two of them we dictate play which suits our forwards and game plan.

Im not sure Sam.

Devoto and Hill came through and were all hyped for big things...but haven't hit the levels expected or that were hoped from them. I certainly thought Hill could come through big time.

Mallinder is not remotely international standard ..yet. Lots of potential...

Sam James I agree is a classy player.

Slade looks increasingly settling at 13.

So I repeat where is the international standard 12's coming from. Is that why we're having to look at EQ'd foreigners like T'eo!

Geordiefalcon for whatever reason the players who people have had high hopes for haven't delivered yet.

I do think players like Tompkins and Mallinder have potential and still have time on their side but.... not ready yet.

I think with Mallinder it's not quite picking a position for him to settle at.  Tompkins problem is gametime, he just needs a run of games in the 1st team.


Also there aren't enough English players starting at 12 in the AP IMO.

Funny thing is about Barritt is still probably still the best EQ 12 in the AP.


I watched the highlights of that England v NZ game 2012 on the weekend and it seemed to be one of the few games where Barritt-Manu partnership worked well.



Those Exeter centres seem to be behind Dollman and Whitten. Well not Slade.

Slade is playing 13 for Exe because he asked to. He asked to because Eddie Jones told him his best route to a test place is at 13. It's not however a deal breaker if Slade is picked elsewhere for Exe, however, EJ will still primarily consider Slade for the 13 shirt. This was in a BT Sport interview Slade gave.

I can't see how a Farrell/Slade combo would work too well tbh, I hope that's not what EJ is considering.

2 years into Eddie's tenure and the 10/12/13 issue is still there, despite us producing the results.

So whats the puzzle with Englands 12's. Why cant we produce them?

And im not saying Farrell is not a good 12. He's proved he is. I just think he lacks that hard running ability that a good 12 needs.

If he had that...he'd be the complete 12

cascough wrote:Slade is playing 13 for Exe because he asked to. He asked to because Eddie Jones told him his best route to a test place is at 13. It's not however a deal breaker if Slade is picked elsewhere for Exe, however, EJ will still primarily consider Slade for the 13 shirt. This was in a BT Sport interview Slade gave.

Regardless, its another who we hoped was the fix for that dreaded 12 position....who now is not.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So whats the puzzle with Englands 12's. Why cant we produce them?

And im not saying Farrell is not a good 12. He's proved he is. I just think he lacks that hard running ability that a good 12 needs.

If he had that...he'd be the complete 12

GF - who in world rugby fits your template of a complete 12?
What skills do they need?
Running, distribution, kicking and defence?


Only asking as I suspect there are not many of them around.

Has to be one of the hardest positions to be a complete player. Need to be a mix of a fly half (with the receiving, passing and kicking skills) but normally be bigger, excellent defensively and good tactically.

You tend to either get a fly half style 12 or a hard carrying, physical style. I think carrying/running ability is a bit of an added bonus really but suppose it depends on balance.

Saints centres I think mix the roles a bit with Burrell having more carrying ability and Horne being better defensively.