England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

No said autumn not summer tests

Nottswasp wrote:Argentina would of beaten England this autumn of they had a kicker

Would HAVE. My English teacher would have had you thrown out of the classroom

The thing to remember about changing one player for another - they have to be consistently outperforming the shirtholder in that position in order to dislodge them, and then they have to consistently improve to keep said shirt. If Ford was playing really badly, I could see your logic. However, 2 points: He's not playing badly - he's just struggling a little in a badly-underperforming Leicester side. He is still showing flashes of his brilliance. Secondly, Lozowski is not shining at 10, nor does he start there for his club so logic dictates that he should stay where he is in the pecking order right now. Injuries may dictate changes later in the season, but why change Ford now? He's not doing badly.

Also why have a go at Ford's point scoring abilities against Foley, when Farrell takes the majority of the kicks anyway???

Before you think I have a total mancrush on Ford, I don't actually like him much. I would prefer to see Cipriani given a go, but Eddie feels that ship has sailed. What I can recognise is that he's a good player hampered by a poor team at present.

I am a wasps fan but I don't see cips as a test match player.... really good club player

As a wasps fan I would like to see Daly at fullback for England and wasps....but also Bassett get into the Saxons when fit

Oh the reason I bring it up is because kicking is as much about mindset as well as technique...so if u mess it up...can u execute other skills in a world cup final?

If he doesn't have to kick, he can concentrate on what he does well. He's had a couple of flaky moments, sure, but let's not forget - even Sir Jonny missed a few.

When Leicester Tigers got George ford back...as a wasps fan I was really pleased... because he won't win them a prem title ...if he couldn't do it with bath and all their talent and backing...then a downward trend Leicester won't make it more likely

Don't get me wrong ford is a really tidy player...but I don't see him as guiding us to a world cup title, and of he can't...then is now not the time to make the change when u have other options/combinations available.... Farrell/Lozowski/Slade/devoto/Te'o/Tuilagi/Marcus smith

Sorry yes grammar can take a battering when using predictive text.

So why can't england win a WC with ford?

And rugby is about more than the wc tbf.

His track record in playing in club finals...his poor performances when playing against Ireland, who I think have sussed him out...his low points per game....having to hide him in defence...him not making selection above sexton, Farrell and biggar.

I agree...I love club rugby, the 6 nations and test matches.

Buy if ur the biggest wealthiest union.. the world cup is the biggest thing that defines the state of ur game

If it smells fishy............
If it looks fishy..................
If it sounds fishy........................

It is probably a familiar wummer under a new name, joined today, has the style of someone long since banned, makes a lot of statements which have little basis in logic, changes the point of attack the minute he is cornered about one set of statements and then returns to the old argument later...........

Can't answer simple questions and had no consistency in discussion.

So again Notts based on his game why won't he win the wc?

Haskell misses he first 2 games. Underhill looks set to start.

So ur not going to reply to the points I made about;

Not being part of the lions tour
Losing to Ireland (w/c contender)
Not winning anything for bath
Not being in the running for world player of the year

If he was world class...those issues wouldn't be there..they certainly are not for Jonny sexton or beauden Barrett or Foley or Owen Farrell.

Ireland will beat England at Twickenham in the 6 nations and are ahead of them despite what the rankings say....oh and I am an English fan.

U wanna hang ur hat on ford that's fine...but don't be surprised when he goes missing in big games

No 7&1/2 wrote:Haskell misses he first 2 games. Underhill looks set to start.

I suspect that the suspension doesn't change much.

I've been asking you for reasons Notts on why as a player he won't or can't win the world cup. You have failed to talk about him as a player bar gatland rates him lower than jones. Woop de do!

Thought haskell was bench bound lost.

No 7&1/2 wrote:....

Thought haskell was bench bound  lost.

That was a possibility but I had the feeling that his form has not been great this season, and he hasn't got the Brown/ Hartley reasons why he's be included anyway.

Is Underhill fit and concussion free.

Is he going to be able to play a full 6n tournament without getting knocked out and out of the comp!

Nottswasp wrote:So ur not going to reply to the points I made about;

Not being part of the lions tour
Losing to Ireland (w/c contender)
Not winning anything for bath
Not being in the running for world player of the year

If he was world class...those issues wouldn't be there..they certainly are not for Jonny sexton or beauden Barrett or Foley or Owen Farrell.

Actually, Foley wasn't part of the Lions Tour.
Barrett, Foley and Farrell lost to Ireland. Sexton didn't for obvious reasons.
Sexton, Barrett, Foley and Farrell haven't won anything for Bath.
Foley and Sexton weren't in the running for player of the year.

Your points are inconsistent and stupid.

Nottswasp wrote:So ur not going to reply to the points I made about;

Not being part of the lions tour
Losing to Ireland (w/c contender)
Not winning anything for bath
Not being in the running for world player of the year

If he was world class...those issues wouldn't be there..they certainly are not for Jonny sexton or beauden Barrett or Foley or Owen Farrell.

Ireland will beat England at Twickenham in the 6 nations and are ahead of them despite what the rankings say....oh and I am an English fan.

U wanna hang ur hat on ford that's fine...but don't be surprised when he goes missing in big games

No one at Bath won a trophy not just Ford

Ireland have beaten every team yet somehow it's a reason Ford shouldn't be playing?

Ah just ignore the wum Scott.

6.Robshaw
7.Underhill
8.Simmonds

I believe Graham and Mercer are the back rowers in the training squad left standing after that.

Could Armands versatility help a claim for the bench spot?

Dave Ewers has been around squads before but doesn't cover 7. Mike Williams was previously lined up to play the defensive role at 7 but his form hasn't been near where it was before injury.

It's a shame Kvesic hasn't pushed on at Chiefs yet. His breakdown work dropped as the laws changed but if Jones just wants his 7 to tackle everything and secure ball at offensive rucks then Kvesic in-form would be a reasonable back up to Underhill.

Don't take it so personally that I don't think ford can win a world cup.

Owen Farrell has won the premiership and European cups as a 10...ford hasn't

Owen Farrell has been on two lions tours as well as in the test team....ford hasn't

Owen Farrell was nominated for world player of the year and won European player of the year....ford hasn't.

I like ford his a good player...but a world cup winner he is not...a clutch player he is not.

I am an England fan and want them to win the world cup.... dismissing someone who has only just joined with a differing opinion is a little rfu old fart brigade.

I think fords tackling is poor, kicking out of hand is liable for a charge down, place kicking is below average and ability to make breaks average.

His points per game is low and his try scoring is also low.

As a passing playmaker he is really good, but when u have the passing/play making of Farrell/Slade/Lozowski/devoto and hopefully Daly at fullback...is ford still needed?

6.Robshaw
7.Underhill
8.Simmonds

I can't see any player making the hard yards from that trio, it's slightly worrying times. I don't know why Morgan hasn't been brought in as a 3rd option, we can't run with just 2 x 8's.

Ben Ryan thinks England won't win a World Cup with George Ford starting at 10. He didn't spell out his reasons but I wouldn't be surprised if they were along the same lines as Nottswasp. Ryan prefers Farrell at 10, alongside another centre pairing.

I'm still not sure, because I'm not yet convinced Ford can perform against the best without Farrell. I'd feel more comfortable if we'd seen him come through a big game with another inside centre. We know Farrell can play without Ford. The games in Argentina weren't the same pressure as a key Six Nations match.

No one's dismissing you for a different opinion Notts. Would just be nice to see you offer explanations that make sense and are consistent. Ford tackling is good and does what he needs to do. Can't remember which poster offers a great assessment of this re positioning technique etc. Keep a look out, think it may have been cascough. Kicking out of hand is the best we have from an English player currently. Yup he makes few breaks and that's probably going to be the case until smith comes on the scene. Points and tries scored I'm not worried about as his role doesn't revolve around this but to create space for others.

Ford doesn't make enough breaks for me as Farrell doesn't either, so u know as a defending team that Joseph is the main line breaker there. Making it easier to defend.
I thought eddy was looking at a 10) Farrell, 12) Te'o/Tuilagi, 13) Slade....at one point, but seems to have cooled on the big 12 idea for now.

Personally always thought Ollie devoto was the ideal 12 with a fit Tuilagi at 13.....but with the modern premiership's style of play and seemingly more frequent injuries...u wonder how much u can keep combinations together for a period of time

I understand and appreciate fords role as a facilitator for others....it is that nagging question feeling that it isn't enough at 10, other 10s can take control of a vital game and drive the team...like Dan carter in the 2015 rwc final....or Jonny sexton in the Heineken cup final

How is it enough to win 22 of 23 but not 7 games in a world cup? And how is one man solely responsible for if we can win?

Except if it's Foley with 11 losses in his last 23.

Since Ford left Bath he has been poor.

What fly halves look good with crap ball?

Squad:



* Uncapped
* ** Apprentice

What's that from scott?

Just seen actual squad thought it was at 11

Long time no post, but...

Mercer's lost his apprentice status then. Suggest a debut coming up?

Not going to join in on the Ford debate, other than to say that I think he's the glue in our backline who lets the others operate. Not saying no-one else could do it, but he's doing the job.

Nowell's fit? I thought he was missing for most, if not all, of the tournament? Makes the FB slot more interesting.

Oooosh look at that lot. Loves a surprise, does Eddie.

Big fan of Hepburn's inclusion, been unlucky with injuries and the depth at loosehead.

Most interestingly for me though, Nowell listed as a midfielder??

Nottswasp wrote:Don't take it so personally that I don't think ford can win a world cup.

Owen Farrell has won the premiership and European cups as a 10...ford hasn't

Owen Farrell has been on two lions tours as well as in the test team....ford hasn't

Owen Farrell was nominated for world player of the year and won European player of the year....ford hasn't.

I like ford his a good player...but a world cup winner he is not...a clutch player he is not.

I am an England fan and want them to win the world cup.... dismissing someone who has only just joined with a differing opinion is a little rfu old fart brigade.

I think fords tackling is poor, kicking out of hand is liable for a charge down, place kicking is below average and ability to make breaks average.

His points per game is low and his try scoring is also low.

As a passing playmaker he is really good, but when  u have the passing/play making of Farrell/Slade/Lozowski/devoto and hopefully Daly at fullback...is ford still needed?

This is Beshocked, isn't it?

LoTa of interesting picks in there. Wouldn't want to have to call what team he's putting out vs italy.

cascough wrote:This is Beshocked, isn't it?

I don't think so. A low rent imitation maybe.

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:This is Beshocked, isn't it?

I don't think so. A low rent imitation maybe.

I dunno, man. I'm looking at the phrasing, the logic, the fact he's mentioned he's a Wasps fan about 17 times...

The fact that there's 5 locks suggests one will be playing flanker to my mind.

Also Mallinder and Earle are interesting inclusions, especially Mallinder as a fb.

Would not have thought Lewis Boyce would be in there...

And, no Vellacott in there....interesting.

I don't think so. A low rent imitation maybe.

Certain similarity in styles - anyway he/she has become the fastest person to hit my ignore list.

Life's too short to have to read quibbling at that level.

Just noticed Lewis Boyce too. Man that was an unexpected selection, he's been pretty good though

No 7&1/2 wrote:LoTa of interesting picks in there. Wouldn't want to have to call what team he's putting out vs italy.

I don't think it's that difficult to be fair. Jones is a fairly consistent selector.

My guess would be

Mako
Hartley
Cole
Itoje
Lawes
Robshaw
Underhill
Simmonds
Youngs
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Watson
Brown

Hepburn
George
Williams
Launchbury
Mercer
Care
Slade
Nowell

He could even go 6:2 and bring Kruis onto the bench in place of Nowell.

England Backs 

Mike Brown (Harlequins) Nathan Earle (Saracens)  Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) Jonny May (Leicester Tigers) Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks) Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby) Inside backs Danny Care (Harlequins) Owen Farrell (Saracens) George Ford (Leicester Tigers) Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby) Alex Lozowski (Saracens) Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs) Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs) Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors) Marcus Smith (Harlequins)  Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers) 

England Forwards 

Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons)  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens) Maro Itoje (Saracens) George Kruis (Saracens) Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) Joe Launchbury (Wasps) Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)  Chris Robshaw (Harlequins) Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs) Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby) Lewis Boyce (Harlequins)  Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers) Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)  Jamie George (Saracens) Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs)  Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) Mako Vunipola (Saracens) Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)