Avoiding the uncontested scrum trap

First topic message reminder :

I have no idea whether Wales played cute at the weekend. In his press conference, Gatland was adamant that Brown had cramped up, and there may indeed be footage shows him suffering before he was subbed off.

Whatever actually took place, it seems undeniable that Georgia weren't able to use the penalty and sin bin advantage as they wanted. In fact, they probably would have preferred to play a fifteen man Welsh side with contestable scrums.

This scenario comes about when a front row player gets sent to the sin bin, and there is no fit replacement for him. I hope someone can correct me, if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that play just continues with that player in the bin, until a scrum is awarded (It might come instantly, if the attacking side wanting to scrum the penalty).

A full pack of eight is needed even for uncontested scrums, so someone has to be subbed to let the extra forward on. However, if a fit front row replacement isn't available, then I think a side can send a back five player on, which is potentially a handier addition when trying to defend while a man down.

It just seems like a glaring inconsistency in the game if a penalty advantage turns out to be so disadvantageous. I've heard a couple of suggestions:

- As the sinbinned player is fit, he should come back on, or stay on, because his absence is the root of the problem, and someone else go off. Not a bad idea, but you'd need to work out what happens in the case of another infringement. Can he get a red with a second straight yellow in this period, and would that mean another player going off? If he stays on, can he get a third yellow or more by serial offending during the ten minutes?

- If a team can't field a legal scrum because of a sinbinning, there should be an immediate points penalty. There's already a sanction (at least in Test rugby) where a team forfeits a match if it can't put out a 23 with full front row cover. That topic came up at the last World Cup, when a couple of squads only named two hookers, which could have become an issue if one of them turned an ankle during the warm-up, with no time to call in a replacement.

Not sure about either or these.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:There is no way a team with Wales' resources and playing pool should resort to that sort of thing to beat a team like Georgia, if indeed any of the stuff I've been reading is true, and thats a big IF.

All good points.
Scotland 165,000 players.
Samoa 12,000 players.

I’m assuming you got that number from the World Rugby playing numbers map? I don’t know what the ‘total numbers’ is meant to mean but the 160k figure for Scotland is utter horse crap. Whenever the SRU release playing number figures there are around 17-18k adult players and a total of around 44-45k (which includes ladies and youth rugby). Those figures are probably already inflated to try and show a positive picture (most youth players are double counted as they are registered to their school and local club). Amateur playing numbers are falling too – some clubs in Scotland who regularly used to put out 3 teams each weekend are now struggling to put out a 1st XV.

I don’t know where the extra 120k rugby players are meant to have come from!

Playing numbers certainly don’t tell the whole story – if they did then England should win every game by a landslide.

That's why most of the Sottish squad are made up of South Africans, Australians and New Zealanders.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just an example mikey that there were people truly outraged about it. Still don't think this thread is showing anything of the sort and when on track has been civil.

Agreed, just knew it would come up with everyone else as soon as Wales were involved - like all the times Wales have been involved in an offside or forward pass .

The circumstances are different, and what happened at the end of that game has raised genuine questions about sin-binnings, uncontested scrums, and how to avoid a situation where the penalised team actually benefits from the sin-binning. It's coincidental that it happened in a Wales game. Unless, of course, you're painfully thin-skinned.

Well that would be you then, trying to call me out every time you get all flustered. Have you accepted that I was right about Pivac yet?

What are you talking about?

marty2086 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Where was this article when France engaged in the dark arts?

Not the same situation. It was Wales who got the yellow card. France claimed an HIA, so they could replace a player. That could happen any time in a match, and needs a different policing approach.

In the Georgia case, they were awarded an advantage which arguably put them in a worse position.

 In fairness to the referee he then gave Georgia the opportunity to change their decision to pack a scrum, once Wales put the game into "Golden Oldie" scrums. Most referees dont have that vision.

Did the ref not get it wrong in the first place though?

Wales made a tactical replacement and not an injury replacement, do the rules not state the player has to return?

Maybe the rules need to put the onus on the coaches etc to inform officials if a player can't return and anyone who hasn't has to either send the player on or go down to 13 as some suggested

 Marty. I think you are missing the point.

 The Georgian captain was deprived the opportunity of putting down a dominant scrum, therefore the referee gave the option back to the Georgian Captain the opportunity of continuing with a scrum (Or kick for goal, or tap and run, or Kick for touch and go for the driving maul).

 I cant see how the referee got anything wrong????

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

What are you talking about?

When I said Pivac had the Scarlets playing like kiwi super team you took offence to it, even though it was true. Furthermore Pivac even said that they went down to NZ to mirror what they were doing! Then you just showed off. No idea why you keep trying, you just sound like a whiney girl most of the time.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:There is no way a team with Wales' resources and playing pool should resort to that sort of thing to beat a team like Georgia, if indeed any of the stuff I've been reading is true, and thats a big IF.

All good points.
Scotland 165,000 players.
Samoa 12,000 players.

I’m assuming you got that number from the World Rugby playing numbers map? I don’t know what the ‘total numbers’ is meant to mean but the 160k figure for Scotland is utter horse crap. Whenever the SRU release playing number figures there are around 17-18k adult players and a total of around 44-45k (which includes ladies and youth rugby).  Those figures are probably already inflated to try and show a positive picture (most youth players are double counted as they are registered to their school and local club). Amateur playing numbers are falling too – some clubs in Scotland who regularly used to put out 3 teams each weekend are now struggling to put out a 1st XV.

I don’t know where the extra 120k rugby players are meant to have come from!

Playing numbers certainly don’t tell the whole story – if they did then England should win every game by a landslide.

Yes, from that very map. Wales has the lowest of the home nations.

They certainly don't tell the whole story but having a lot of players and teams is a greater advantage than having not so many players and just 4 teams. It also comes down to how you manage the players. NZ do it particularly well and so do England these days. England pretty much win every game these days.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

What are you talking about?

When I said Pivac had the Scarlets playing like kiwi super team you took offence to it, even though it was true. Furthermore Pivac even said that they went down to NZ to mirror what they were doing! Then you just showed off. No idea why you keep trying, you just sound like a whiney girl most of the time.

I think you need to lay off the steroids, Mikey. They're making you angry.

Strangely it shows Wales' Total numbers are the same as their Registered players, yet for Scotland there are apparently 120k extra players that are somehow unaccounted for!

Take out this spurious 'total' number and Scotland comfortably have the lowest playing numbers out of the home nations, which I think is correct as that has always been the case. Again given the SRU's own figures show playing numbers in the 40k region this should be taken as the actual number. Not 160k!!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

What are you talking about?

When I said Pivac had the Scarlets playing like kiwi super team you took offence to it, even though it was true. Furthermore Pivac even said that they went down to NZ to mirror what they were doing! Then you just showed off. No idea why you keep trying, you just sound like a whiney girl most of the time.

I think you need to lay off the steroids, Mikey. They're making you angry.

Considering they're a class A drug where I'm currently living that's quite the ridiculous accusation to be making .

I'm tired. I shouldn't have stooped to your level and resorted to insults.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm tired. I shouldn't have stooped to your level and resorted to insults.

Great so now you can stop your girly whining when someone says anything positive about Wales.

Why are you always spoiling for a fight when you come on here, Mikey? Why so argumentative? Is it an act? Is it meant to be impressive? I really don't get it.

I think this pic explains a lot:



Some people just can't help it. They gotta be 'avin' some, yeah!

Ah, Mike Brown. Don't ever change.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Why are you always spoiling for a fight when you come on here, Mikey? Why so argumentative? Is it an act? Is it meant to be impressive? I really don't get it.

Actually I find you quite argumentative, and in a pedantic kind of way. I usually only argue with people who try and call me out for being wrong when I was right . We can call a truce though if you like.

Oh I'm definitely a pedant.

Yeah a truce sounds good.

I don't like truces.... don't trust them. F**k the two of yis!

SecretFly wrote:I think this pic explains a lot:



Some people just can't help it.  They gotta be 'avin' some, yeah!

was this when Big Balls Brown gave away the pen that cost his team a home fixture v Wales i their own RWC

Gwlad wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I think this pic explains a lot:



Some people just can't help it.  They gotta be 'avin' some, yeah!

was this when Big Balls Brown gave away the pen that cost his team a home fixture v Wales i their own RWC

Do we really need England vs Wales crap from you and Mikey every post?

Scottrf wrote:Do we really need England vs Wales crap from you and Mikey every post?

Eh?

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I think this pic explains a lot:



Some people just can't help it.  They gotta be 'avin' some, yeah!

was this when Big Balls Brown gave away the pen that cost his team a home fixture v Wales i their own RWC

Do we really need England vs Wales crap from you and Mikey every post?

Um, because its a picture of England v Wales.

Calm down dear.