6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
24 February 2018
KO: 16:45 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on [Old BBC Colonial]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

135 Played 135
42 Won 75
18 Drawn 18
75 Lost 42
1,162 Points 1,623

B. Recent Form 

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

11 March 2017
Twickenham, London
61 – 21 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Horne, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw; Reid, McInally, Berghan, Gilchrist, J Gray, Barclay (capt), Watson, Wilson.

Replacements: Lawson, J Bhatti, WP Nel, Swinson, Denton, Price, Grigg, Kinghorn.

ENGLAND

Brown, Watson, Joseph, Farrell, May, Ford, Care; M Vunipola, Hartley (capt), Cole, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, G Kruis (Saracens), Underhill, Wigglesworth, B Te'o, J Nowell.

SecretFly wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Still the second best team in the world. Teams lose. Even the All Blacks.

We'll see about that a little later down the line

Surely after losing today, you do not think they ( England) will lose to Ireland do you?

You'll be rightfully favourites at home, majestic  We'll have to give a go but sure, it'll be a tough old game.  As Rory said today, 'we don't like making things easy'.

After today's game and the way England played i am not expecting an easy game. Against any one especialy  Ireland.

I actually thought that Maitland had a very good game. Took his try well, carried many times into traffic and let nothing get by him fantastically. One of those players you only realise what he does when he is not playing.

Looks like Kinghorn will get a full cap next time around though. I think he is ready and will not let us down.

BigGee wrote:I actually thought that Maitland had a very good game. Took his try well, carried many times into traffic and let nothing get by him fantastically. One of those players you only realise what he does when he is not playing.

Looks like Kinghorn will get a full cap next time around though. I think he is ready and will not let us down.

I don't think he touched the ball but showed willing in defence. He's a fullback, not a winger, so against Ireland I think we need a specialist winger. Kinghorn has many talents but he's not a rock in the air, and Ireland will be coming with an aerial bombardment.

Saying that there's not many other wingers playing well just now so he may get his chance, and I'd like to see what he can do. Dougie Fife night be an option - IMO he's one of our best wingers in the air.

Good game and a good thread here - well done everyone.

England just had the same kind of game as Scotland did against Wales. Nothing came off for them and they never really got started. They lost momentum through unforced mistakes and not getting the 50:50 calls from the referee. I strongly believe that they will bounce back and give France a right kicking. In terms of Owens, however, I think it's significant that the BBC commentary team had no real complaints about him.

In terms of the breakdown, I think it's important to say that Scotland play with two opensides, both of whom played well today and McInally who used to be a loose forward himself and is notoriously strong on the floor. Robshaw did his best but Lawes is really not a loose forward and Scotland moving the point of contact so often effectively knocked Launchbury and Itoje out of the game. It wasn't luck - it was an area that Townsend said he specifically targeted.

I think that Scotland were good value for the win.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:I actually thought that Maitland had a very good game. Took his try well, carried many times into traffic and let nothing get by him fantastically. One of those players you only realise what he does when he is not playing.

Looks like Kinghorn will get a full cap next time around though. I think he is ready and will not let us down.

I don't think he touched the ball but showed willing in defence. He's a fullback, not a winger, so against Ireland I think we need a specialist winger.  Kinghorn has many talents but he's not a rock in the air, and Ireland will be coming with an aerial bombardment.

Saying that there's not many other wingers playing well just now so he may get his chance, and I'd like to see what he can do. Dougie Fife night be an option - IMO he's one of our best wingers in the air.

He is the future and he has the x factor. He is a Toonie sort of player. He will pick him, or why bench him for the last two. Maitland could have covered FB!

Well done Scotland on a thoroughly deserved win and a 606v2 pint on me to RDW, geoge,tigertattie, 21st, ironbru, spoons, gee, and anhone else I've missed out cos I'm p1ssed up. Absolute total kudos on a great win..

I'm English but I'll take the pint!   cheers!

Ouch. You edited my pint away.

So what happened pregame in the tunnel?

Some call the AA - a wheel has fallen off the chariot!

*titters*

sorry chaps - you have been gracious but allow me to enjoy it please

England came to the game very complacent, Scotland came very fired up as shown with the tunnel fights etc. The second half was a lot tighter, I expect England will not get burned twice this tournament. On the reffing I think we had a bit of the rub of the green, partly down to skill and agression but also down to gamesmanship we so often lack. I dont think we should get too carried away based on all this, Ireland won't make the same mistakes and are very savvy.

This all said So proud of the way the boys played. I don't think any of us expected that and it was a fantastic result. Revelling in it to be honest!

Commiserations to the England fans, we've definitely felt your pain before!

TightHEAD wrote:So what happened pregame in the tunnel?

There was video footage of it after the game - handbags between Farrell and Wilson. Didn't look like anything in it.

Breadvan wrote:Well done Scotland on a thoroughly deserved win and a 606v2 pint on me to RDW, geoge,tigertattie, 21st, ironbru, spoons, gee, and anhone else I've missed out cos I'm p1ssed up. Absolute total kudos on a great win..

TJ wrote:Some call the AA - a wheel has fallen off the chariot!

*titters*

sorry chaps - you have been gracious but allow me to enjoy it please

 Enjoy it at your pleasure. you thoroughly deserve it.

majesticimperialman wrote:

TJ wrote:Some call the AA - a wheel has fallen off the chariot!

*titters*

sorry chaps - you have been gracious but allow me to enjoy it please

 Enjoy it at your pleasure. you thoroughly deserve it.

It has been a long wait!

Woop hic hoo

So at this stage its still possible that Scotland could win the six Nations?

aucklandlaurie wrote:
So at this stage its still possible that Scotland could win the six Nations?

Mathematically yes, in reality very unlikely!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
So at this stage its still possible that Scotland could win the six Nations?

Mathematically yes, in reality very unlikely!

Nonsense! You’ve only lost 1 haven’t you?! So same chance as England now. And no one’s writing them off!

Was it only me but did WP Nel walk on at the 65m mark for only the second time in 12 months , had a single scrum and annihilatiled his opposite number?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
So at this stage its still possible that Scotland could win the six Nations?

Mathematically yes, in reality very unlikely!

We need a huge performance against the Irish, then for England to do us a favour vs them in the last game. Thats assuming the Italy result is a foregone conclusion.

If Ireland wins against Scotland, and let's say France picks off an England that can't recover their mojo in time (away wins are tough to get, they say) then is that Ireland already champs before that final game in Twickenham?

Every new play weekend seems to be the most important.  This week I thought was most important for us because I rate Wales so highly.  But now, the next play weekend - well it could be us downgraded back into the chasing pack or us already taking the title a week early.

I'd like that.  I'd like the team going to Twickenham, ready for action but with a calmness that allowed them to be a little less tense.

SecretFly wrote:If Ireland wins against Scotland, and let's say France picks off an England that can't recover their mojo in time (away wins are tough to get, they say) then is that Ireland already champs before that final game in Twickenham?

Every new play weekend seems to be the most important.  This week I thought was most important for us because I rate Wales so highly.  But now, the next play weekend - well it could be us downgraded back into the chasing pack or us already taking the title a week early.  

I'd like that.  I'd like the team going to Twickenham, ready for action but with a calmness that allowed them to be a little less tense.

Not sure. But to summarise, what a cracking tournament with all of its permutations, and twists and turns! Love the 6 nations. Best tournament in the world.

The Oracle wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
So at this stage its still possible that Scotland could win the six Nations?

Mathematically yes, in reality very unlikely!

Nonsense! You’ve only lost 1 haven’t you?! So same chance as England now. And no one’s writing them off!

An away game in Dublin being the main stumbling block! For or our great results at home we're still to make the step to a big away game. Away wins are very hard to come by in this tournament.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
So at this stage its still possible that Scotland could win the six Nations?

Mathematically yes, in reality very unlikely!

Nonsense! You’ve only lost 1 haven’t you?! So same chance as England now. And no one’s writing them off!

An away game in Dublin being the main stumbling block! For or our great results at home we're still to make the step to a big away game. Away wins are very hard to come by in this tournament.

Believe

Mathematically it Is possible but no BPs could mean the difference.

I think today toonie got his plan right. Scotland moved that massive England pack around and when tired England forwards couldn't get to the breakdown Scotland swooped. The breakdown is so important these days and playing 3 2nd rows and no proper open side is a bit odd these days. You need a balance.

Ireland are in the driving seat at the moment. Wales have shown that Ireland are vulnerable on the outside especially on the counter so Scotland could hit them in two weeks to blow the tournament wide open. Could do, but I'm not saying we will.

Looking forward to the next game now though. Not fearing it like I was earlier in the weekend

England need to win with a bonus point in both their last games to have a chance, and hope Ireland dont get any on the way.

Scotland need to win against Ireland and hope England beat them without Ireland picking up any BP's and hammer Italy.

Ireland just need to beat Scotland realistically.

Irish are massive favourites, dont know who I fancy after them. Next fixtures could very well be the deciders.

One thing is for certain, Joe Schmidt won't sleep tonight...or maybe all next week  He'll have the video editor knackered as he pours over that Scotland v England game.  England decidedly showed how NOT to play Scotland.  Never thought I'd say this, but thanks Eddie.

Thinking back to the game one of England's biggest failings (or Scotland's biggest defensive successes) was that the Ford-Farrell axis barely got moving. Indeed at times I forgot Ford was even playing he was having such little impact on the match! Farrell tried his best but was guilty of forcing things at times.

Also, shame to see Nigel Owens getting abuse on social media. For every tweet like Will greenwood focussing on England's faults instead

https://twitter.com/WillGreenwood/status/967507954399399937

You get people like this

https://twitter.com/RussellKDavies/status/967535695349854209

RDW_Scotland wrote:Also, shame to see Nigel Owens getting abuse on social media. For every tweet like Will greenwood focussing on England's faults instead

https://twitter.com/WillGreenwood/status/967507954399399937

You get people like this

https://twitter.com/RussellKDavies/status/967535695349854209

I guess the Six Nations has started! When he casual yearly observers of rugby start emoting and moaning then you know the competition has finally captured the imagination again. I think this tournament has been a slow burner so far.... but Scotland kinda blew the cobwebs off it big time!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Also, shame to see Nigel Owens getting abuse on social media. For every tweet like Will greenwood focussing on England's faults instead

https://twitter.com/WillGreenwood/status/967507954399399937

You get people like this

https://twitter.com/RussellKDavies/status/967535695349854209

Turns out this particularly classy gentleman abuses players too!

https://twitter.com/RussellKDavies/status/967519004666617856

as an Englishman, he should remember the 'ed' bit.

Well done Scotland, good win and a good spectacle for the most part. I think you’ll continue to get better under Townsend and get better again as you have more players come back in .

As for England well yes it’s true, you got battered by Scotland, BATTERED. No fake news around here. #battered

alive555 wrote:Was it only me but did WP Nel walk on at the 65m mark for only the second time in 12 months ,  had a single scrum and annihilatiled his opposite number?  

Pretty much. Born to scrummage the commentators said

Congratulations to Scotland and all of their 606 fans - a totally deserved victory. Never let England get up a head of steam and more or less controlled things all the way through. Have a great night.

Congratulations Scotland - looking forwards to seeing how you get on against Ireland next.

Well done Scotland

Playing with confidence

Congratulations Scotland. A well executed win. Jones is the man.
Whereas EJ is having his traditional diminishing returns routine.... Speak with Ozy from the naughties, they'll tell you.
The English backrow is the primary issue. We need flankers and a number 8. Not 3 flankers, not a 2nd row in the back. If EJ persists with the Otoje Lawes selection then unfortunately we will know we have real problems.
Our entire game strategy is wrong, the game has changed. We can no longer continue to kick good possession to the opposition. We must have the skills to play creative ball in hand rugby with a muscular and equally rapier ability.
Ford had poor day, however the selection and tactics where not suited to his game.
Finally there is a lack of defining leadership. Hartley did well when he was on the field but was not able to carry the troops who appeared separate and devoid of cohesion. Either Otoje or Launchbury would suit me.
Finally finally the May fly is NOT a test animal.

Which manager do we need to replace jones with who will guarantee your favourite players will be picked?

As a neutral, I actually thought that Owens had a bad game yesterday. It happens to everyone, players and referees.

His decision to disallow the intercept try was technically correct but he had not called for a Scotland penalty advantage until after the interception. That can be very frustrating at the time if you are an England fan or player.

I thought that Farrell had a terrible game defensively at 12 missing tackle after tackle and even backing away to allow Jones through to score his second (superb strength from him to get over).

Scotland were fully deserved of their win yesterday, intent reaps rewards. The Scottish fans have had a rough old run for some time so it is nice to see them getting excited about their national side again. Not looking forward to two weeks time.

To me, the main difference at competition at the ruck was the Scottish were getting there quicker , therefore were over the ball when competing for it, the English were a bit slower in and reaching to compete, which makes it a lot harder to convince the ref your supporting your own weight.

And I have to say some of the idiots on twitter moaning about refs are just plain embarrassing. Had one lad down my local rugby club (centre, thinks he's amazing) slating Owens calling him a cheat. One of our legendary old boy props told him in no uncertain terms to feck off and take up football.
Luckily he's an anomaly but it gets right on my jubblies

Congratulations Scotland - you fought for that.

I watched the game in a London pub and was suitably obnoxious the first time round so I’ve just sat down to rewatch it now. Fair play to the English lads on this thread - this was a far more pleasant read than previous match threads.

I think England will rally and still win the 6N. Wouldn’t want to be France in two weeks. Expecting a BIG reaction.

For the last 2 years since EJ took over England they have all ways found a way
. to win. SO, what happend yesterday?

You could blame the ref for a couple of decisions that did not go our way. The Farrell second try that was disallowed, the care interception, that was pulled back.

But by and large they "ENGLAND" simply was not good enough to win.

I have no doubt England will bounce back, we will just have to put this game behind us and move on to the next game.

majesticimperialman wrote:For the last 2 years since EJ took over England they have all ways found a way
. to win. SO, what happend yesterday?

You could blame the ref for a couple of decisions that did not go our way. The Farrell second try that was disallowed, the care interception, that was pulled back.

But by and large they "ENGLAND" simply was not good enough to win.

I have no doubt England will bounce back, we will just have to put this game behind us and move on to the next game.

Both of which were correct decisions! A clear knock on for one and post match replays showed Launchbury's knee hit the ground while competing for the ball for the other - not supporting his own weight.

I'm watching the game again this morning and it wasn't all one way traffic on the ruck penalties - within 15 minutes Scotland gave away 2 ruck penalties and Robshaw got a turnover pen. We were also penalised for that strange box kicking penalty for blocking - something that both teams repeated later in the match without sanction!

Did really well to win that, completely unexpected.

First few minutes England were carrying, unsupported, and basically asking to be turned over. Said to my gf (learning rugby) that they were making a big error and will figure it out quick. They did it all first half. They sorted it a bit better in the second half and improved significantly as a result, but it was a bridge too far against a fired up Scotland team when you can't execute perfectly.

The English tries were called back, both justifiably. I found it weird that Launchbury was either not penalised or rewarded before the intercept. Would rather Owens called it rather than play a 1 phase advantage (effectively).

Owens had a poor game by his standard. The Laidlaw box kick in the first half that gave 3 points to England because of our blockers(?). Did not get the explanation for that but it looked no different to normal. There were a couple of weird ones like that. It was not the deciding factor in this game though.

Scotland executed really well (bar the overlap with Watson) and tackled manfully. The English carriers would get over the gainline a couple of times then get knocked back to the beginning again. The first try was a fluke, but the second and third were well worked. Jones, Horne, Russell, Gray and Barclay were monstrous. The scrum is playing well and our pack in the loose can be deadly. Line-out needs a bit of work. Need a good performance away now to put all doubts to rest.

Wow. My head. Like seriously, my head....

Anyway! Oh my goodness what a night. Straight off the bat Ian Bru you were every bit as charming and funny in real life as you are on this forum. It was a pleasure to meet you and your lovely lady yesterday. I do hope I was not too vulgar and boorish.

The game itself what a performance, I'm going to highlight this comment here from baboon.

carpet baboon wrote:To me, the main difference at competition at the ruck was the Scottish were getting there quicker , therefore were over the ball when competing for it, the English were a bit slower in and reaching to compete, which makes it a lot harder to convince the ref your supporting your own weight.

I fully agree, but this happened last year when England tonked us by 60 points but your huge backrow and locks were just bulldozing us off the ball. That didn't happen this year, and from where I was sat it looked like guys like Robshaw and Lawes had lost a yard or two or three of pace. They looked quite sluggish from the outset.

I know Finn got MOTM but I personally would have given it to Barclay or Watson who were nothing short of absolute pests for 80 minutes.

Like RDW said I fully expect England to recover and crush France in a couple of weeks, like us against Cardiff you aren't a bad side all of a sudden because you lost to us. In fact I think you are a bloody good side and we'll worth the number 2 in the world moniker. It just didn't click for you guys last night.

But having seen Scotland lose to England at Murrayfield for pretty much my entire adult life, last night for me was pretty special and the pubs in Edinburgh pretty much rinsed me out, but it was well worth it!

Final note, the English fans on here have been amazing, honest, humble and with a great knowledge of rugby and how to discuss it, I've enjoyed this thread

Hazel Sapling wrote:Did really well to win that, completely unexpected.

First few minutes England were carrying, unsupported, and basically asking to be turned over. Said to my gf (learning rugby) that they were making a big error and will figure it out quick. They did it all first half. They sorted it a bit better in the second half and improved significantly as a result, but it was a bridge too far against a fired up Scotland team when you can't execute perfectly.

The English tries were called back, both justifiably. I found it weird that Launchbury was either not penalised or rewarded before the intercept. Would rather Owens called it rather than play a 1 phase advantage (effectively).

Owens had a poor game by his standard. The Laidlaw box kick in the first half that gave 3 points to England because of our blockers(?). Did not get the explanation for that but it looked no different to normal. There were a couple of weird ones like that. It was not the deciding factor in this game though.

Scotland executed really well (bar the overlap with Watson) and tackled manfully. The English carriers would get over the gainline a couple of times then get knocked back to the beginning again. The first try was a fluke, but the second and third were well worked. Jones, Horne, Russell, Gray and Barclay were monstrous. The scrum is playing well and our pack in the loose can be deadly. Line-out needs a bit of work. Need a good performance away now to put all doubts to rest.

You could say that but we were very intelligent in the build up - Care did a crap box kick then we took a quick lineout which led to us driving England back 10m in the maul because they weren't set up in time to defend it. They then gave away a penalty and we got a bit of luck in the ensuing chaos.

As the old cliche goes you make your own luck and the clever build up play from us put us in the position to score.

eirebilly wrote:As a neutral, I actually thought that Owens had a bad game yesterday. It happens to everyone, players and referees.

His decision to disallow the intercept try was technically correct but he had not called for a Scotland penalty advantage until after the interception. That can be very frustrating at the time if you are an England fan or player.

I thought that Farrell had a terrible game defensively at 12 missing tackle after tackle and even backing away to allow Jones through to score his second (superb strength from him to get over).

Scotland were fully deserved of their win yesterday, intent reaps rewards. The Scottish fans have had a rough old run for some time so it is nice to see them getting excited about their national side again. Not looking forward to two weeks time.

Will Greenwood who should know whats hes talking about says he reviewed all the major decisions and according to him, Nigel Owens got it 100% spot on

Well done Scotland, the better side won.

Mentally couldn't have been a greater contrast. Also Scotland empthatically won the breakdown battle.

I think the experiment of a 2nd row in the backrow has to stop.

I did mention England's poor discipline beforehand and yet again penalty skewed massively in Scotland's favour. Some were forced, some weren't.

You can't win a game if you don't give yourself a foothold.

Also I wonder if the scuffle in the tunnel, pumped up Scotland and adversely affected England.

Farrell Jr who was at the heart of the scuffle allegedly didn't seem to be mentally right.