6 Nations - FRANCE v ENGLAND - 10/03/18 - MATCH THREAD

[TightHEAD]

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FRANCE v ENGLAND - 10/03/18 - MATCH THREAD


Kick off: 16:45pm

Venue Stade de France BBC One & BBC Radio 5 live





England Team Starting XV
15 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 31 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 32 caps), 13 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 11 caps), 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 56 caps) C, 11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 16 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 43 caps), 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 79 caps), 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 47 caps) VC, 2 Jamie George (Saracens 23 caps), 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 80 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 50 caps), 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 17 caps), 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 64 caps), 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 62 caps), 8 Nathan Hughes (Wasps 13 caps).

Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins 54 caps), 18 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins 8 caps), 19 James Haskell (Wasps 75 caps), 20 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 5 caps), 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 29 caps), 22 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 38 caps), 23 Mike Brown (Harlequins 67 caps).



France Team News







Head to head
 P-103 England won 57, lost 39, drawn 7



Fully expect to see a tight game in poor weather conditions.
Must see a reaction from England at all costs, we've been treading water since the tour down-under imho and have seen little or no improvement since, plenty of depth but they must start playing like they own the shirt.

[Collapse2005]

You cant complain. England won it last year.

[Scottrff]

Well can I just ask the England fan(s) who questioned Ireland not spanking this "terrible" french team in Paris a few weeks ago to make themselves know to me.
I have some questions for you

Hi. I stick by it. This French side is woeful.

They kicked the ball away at 78.30 and kicked it into play when time was up ffs! With a 2 metre kick to touch needed.

[Collapse2005]

No they arent that bad. They have good players and are better at the breakdown than England, have a better defense too.

[No 7&1/2]

Hey guns people are entitled to post as you have. Would do so myself but then people differ.

[Scottrff]

Better defence. What are you smoking? Compare our points conceded over the past year or two years please.

We see none of the ball and still concede less.

[Collapse2005]

Better defence. What are you smoking? Compare our points conceded over the past year or two years please.

We see none of the ball and still concede less.

Who cares what you did two years ago, they have conceded less tries than England in this years six nations because they have a better defense now. Thats the reality.

[Scottrff]

So fickle.

[Collapse2005]

So fickle.

You are finding it hard to accept reality? You just lost to France. They were the better side.

They have conceded less tries than England. Better defense.

[Scottrff]

And everyone knows you need to reevaluate the best defence, attack etc every game

England have underperformed this 6 Nations, France deserved the win.

We easily have the better defence.

[Collapse2005]

No you dont. France have a better defense than you now.

[No 7&1/2]

Doubt they do tbh even with current sides rather than strongest.

[Scottrff]

If you think that, it makes me all the more confident we have the better defence.

[maestegmafia]

How come England got the line outs with the penalties after 80 minutes was up?

Recent-ish rule change, as of July 2017.

So now if you get a penalty you can also have a line out after the clocks run out?

[Collapse2005]

If you think that, it makes me all the more confident we have the better defence.

Your arrogance is preventing you from accepting facts and reality. You didnt see the loss coming for the exact same reason.

My score prediction for the game was 21-17 to France yours was 18-30 to England. Maybe you arent as smart as you think?

[No 7&1/2]

Yes maes.

[David-Douglas]

Not a great game to watch, particularly the first half.

Overall England were very poor, France were poor and just did enough to win.

Robshaw needs some help. Haskell and Sinkler made a difference when they came on. Watson is not a full back, poor in defence and nothing in attack from that position.

How Vunipola gets away with what he does at scrum time is truly amazing. But he's being doing it for years now.

[Guest]

Wouldn't surprise me if Eddie quits and walks after the Irish game.

!?!

Why...?

[Rugby Fan]

...Robshaw has been playing without a partner, but has been a rare bright light this tournament....

I've seen Robshaw rated 4/10, 5/10 and 8/10 for his performance yesterday!

[Geordie]

Robshaw is continuously outstanding...imagine him with a proper back row. Wow! He's been derided since last wc for 1 call yet been England's best player for how ever long has been in the side.

England Will get smashed next weekend and Jones and his coaches need to go to some dark places after that and find some enlightenment.

[Geordie]

Plus when England's needed some fujing grit and bottle Jones took Mark Wilson and disposed of him and then took Gary Graham and has fujing dissapeared!!!

Jones doing what every country hes managed has said he will do!!

[No9]

E Jones isn't the answer for England. Didn't think so when he was appointed, but he had some luck and that carried him through. Now he's tasting defeat, it wont be long before it all falls apart.

Sack Jones now before its too late and you face another RWC humiliation. But the RFU wont, and to be honest I'll be quite happy about that as a Welshman.

[yappysnap]

Jeez well this escalated quickly!!

[kingelderfield]

Well I really hoped that that didn't happen, but as predicted on Friday, the BR ultimately lost us the game..
Farrell captaincy was shown to be the mistake suspected and we let Pyper have his appalling input. That was never ever a PT YC situation.
The fact is he should have taken Farrell off, who was utterly robotic throughout, and kept Ford in the game though I appreciate how diminutive Ford appears in confidence besides Farrell's black hole sized ego. I always think back to this summer in Argentina and Ford's lone performances without Farrell. Either way they're no longer functioning together which is another real cause for concern.
The captaincy should go to Itoje now and where possible fresh legs should be tried in he BR.
Jones has to act.

[maestegmafia]

How come England got the line outs with the penalties after 80 minutes was up?

Recent-ish rule change, as of July 2017.

So now if you get a penalty you can also have a line out after the clocks run out?

Rather a dramatic rule change that seems to have been a bit under the radar?

Would stop the referee making the appalling mistake he made in Rome 2007 where he said Wales had time for line out then changed his mind.

https://youtu.be/l9qtmVbIhjY

[eirebilly]

Well I really hoped that that didn't happen, but as predicted on Friday, the BR ultimately lost us the game..
Farrell captaincy was shown to be the mistake  suspected and we let Pyper have his appalling input. That was never ever a PT YC situation.
The fact is he should have taken Farrell off, who was utterly robotic throughout, and kept Ford in the game though I appreciate how diminutive Ford appears in confidence besides Farrell's black hole sized ego. I always think back to this summer in Argentina and Ford's lone performances without Farrell. Either way they're no longer functioning together which is another real cause for concern.
The captaincy should go to Itoje now and where possible fresh legs should be tried in he BR.
Jones has to act.

The rules say that it was a PT and a YC, personally I think it was harsh. To me it looked like Watson did not go high, it went high as the French player started diving for the line. Anywhere else in the field and it may simply be a penalty and no YC.

I actually though Farrell was very good yesterday, he had to cover 10 and 12 because Ford was just a passenger. After 30mins I was saying that Ford should go and move Farrell to 10, Teo to 12 and JJ to 13. Eventually this did happen and England looked far more effective in attack due to it.

The balance in the pack was all so wrong yesterday as well and poor old Robshaw was again a 1 man back row. If it was not for Robshaw (his very important interventions at crucial moments) England may have lost by more.

Credit to France as well, there defence was savage yesterday.

[lostinwales]

France really are woeful.

England were significantly superior in the first half, but couldn't score points. France took the chances they had and definitely deserved to win. But yes a poor poor performance from England. Very whistle happy ref but that went both ways - and didn't do much for the fluency of the game.

It now seems that the injury that has hurt us the most was Youngs, because apart from brief flashes (the try we did score was lovely) we have not looked coherant since he was injured. I don't want to see Wigglesworth again to be honest.

And these threads can become desperate places at times. Guns accusing everyone else of arrogance but can't look in a mirror..

[No9]

Wow, I thought England are playing for 3rd spot now by beating Ireland with a BP. But just been pointed out to me, that if England loose with NO losing BP and France lose to Wales with a BP, then England could easily finish 5th.

E Jones really knows how to turn a racing chariot into a banger racer doesn’t he.

[eirebilly]

Just re-watched the dying minutes of yesterdays game, I hope the player (LCD?) who took the last play into contact and knocked it on is buying the rest of the England players drinks. There was about a 5 on 2 out wide and England would have strolled in fo the try and Farrell almost certainly would have kicked the conversion to win the game. A serious lack of composure there.

[No 7&1/2]

And quite surprising billy as that's exeters bread and butter.

[eirebilly]

I was very surprised 7&1/2, not sure if Wigglesworth was calling for the ball to come through or just allowing the forwards to do the work or LCD completely ignoring everyone and going for glory himself. All round bad piece of play.

[No9]

Just re-watched the dying minutes of yesterdays game, I hope the player (LCD?) who took the last play into contact and knocked it on is buying the rest of the England players drinks. There was about a 5 on 2 out wide and England would have strolled in fo the try and Farrell almost certainly would have kicked the conversion to win the game. A serious lack of composure there.

That was actually justice, as the last penalty lineout throw in was illegal. The hooker dummied the throw-in. Look at it again. He goes to throw, stops and then throws again. Now, unless the rules have changed that is an illegal throw as is a dummy throw-in to a scrum. You cant do that and penalty to other side. Which would have finished the game.

[leicestertinytiger]

One player I really like is Simmonds, but can’t see how he fits into the BR. He isn’t big enough to play against the best rams at 8. Doesn’t have any breakdown ability to play 7 and can’t imagine him playing 6, although he does have a massive work rate. Maybe being a bit harsh because he is young, but does anyone else get that impression?

[doctor_grey]

Just re-watched the dying minutes of yesterdays game, I hope the player (LCD?) who took the last play into contact and knocked it on is buying the rest of the England players drinks. There was about a 5 on 2 out wide and England would have strolled in fo the try and Farrell almost certainly would have kicked the conversion to win the game. A serious lack of composure there.

That was actually justice, as the last penalty lineout throw in was illegal. The  hooker dummied the throw-in. Look at it again. He goes to throw, stops and then throws again. Now, unless the rules have changed that is an illegal throw as is a dummy throw-in to a scrum. You cant do that and penalty to other side. Which would have finished the game.

Saw that too.   LCD was already a mess.  Missed the prior line-out (although the call for the 5 man was weird), double-clutched that last one, and lost the ball on the line.  He gets the blame there, but there was an awful lot of blame to go around.

[thomh]

Maestegmafia

It hasn't been under the radar at all - I'm surprised you haven't heard of it. One oddity to note is that players wanting to end the game by kicking to touch from a penalty now have to tap the ball first, to avoid then needing to take the lineout. Been happening all season.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Shame but hopefully will kick Jones into addressing the breakdown in particular as an issue. Simmonds was pretty quick to it when he came on, securing the ball before a france player locked onto it, so hopefully we'll see this:

6. Robshaw
7. Simmonds
8. Hughes

Or

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Simmonds

I'd be looking to give Sinckler a start as well. We're short of carriers, which he is, and Jones giving the pack a chance to redeem themselves didn't yield much. Time for the opposite strategy. Cant have a situation where players are all retaining their positions despite poor performances, even if Cole hasn't himself done anything wildly wrong.

I think Haskell would be the better bet at 8, he massively improved England's go forward when he came on, he also hit the rucks with more effect than anyone else had done. Simmons to 7, he is built like one, has the speed of one and is quite difficult to move once he is over the ball. I cannot see him having a future at 8 for England, especially when BV is back, might as well see how he goes at 7 now when we have little to lose.

Itoje and Lawes at lock, Launchbury just looked completely shot yesterday and that was after 10 minutes, having said that he always looks a bit like that, but doesn't usually play that way, yesterday he did. Bring back Ewers or someone that can make an impression in the last 20, I can't remember seeing Kruis do anything but stand in a lineout in the time he was on. Anyone think of a 22 stone monster that is playing well and is EQ.

Marler, Hartley, Williams to start, tough on Sinkler, but I would want him running at a tired defence not tiring himself out and then we bring on a solid technical lump.

Now the controversial bit, start Wigglesworth. If EJ is not going to bring in a third 9, Wigglesworth is the better starter, especially against the likes of Ireland and he is used to playing with Farrell and playing the fast pop pass game that we need to make an impression on the Irish defence. Care is just not good enough to be a starter against a really good team.

Backs, Farrell to 10, Teo 12 and Daley 13, May Brown and Watson (not an international 15 yet) on the back three.

[doctor_grey]

Shame but hopefully will kick Jones into addressing the breakdown in particular as an issue. Simmonds was pretty quick to it when he came on, securing the ball before a france player locked onto it, so hopefully we'll see this:

6. Robshaw
7. Simmonds
8. Hughes

Or

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Simmonds

I'd be looking to give Sinckler a start as well. We're short of carriers, which he is, and Jones giving the pack a chance to redeem themselves didn't yield much. Time for the opposite strategy. Cant have a situation where players are all retaining their positions despite poor performances, even if Cole hasn't himself done anything wildly wrong.

I think Haskell would be the better bet at 8, he massively improved England's go forward when he came on, he also hit the rucks with more effect than anyone else had done. Simmons to 7, he is built like one, has the speed of one and is quite difficult to move once he is over the ball. I cannot see him having a future at 8 for England, especially when BV is back, might as well see how he goes at 7 now when we have little to lose.

Itoje and Lawes at lock, Launchbury just looked completely shot yesterday and that was after 10 minutes, having said that he always looks a bit like that, but doesn't usually play that way, yesterday he did. Bring back Ewers or someone that can make an impression in the last 20, I can't remember seeing Kruis do anything but stand in a lineout in the time he was on. Anyone think of a 22 stone monster that is playing well and is EQ.

Marler, Hartley, Williams to start, tough on Sinkler, but I would want him running at a tired defence not tiring himself out and then we bring on a solid technical lump.

Now the controversial bit, start Wigglesworth. If EJ is not going to bring in a third 9, Wigglesworth is the better starter, especially against the likes of Ireland and he is used to playing with Farrell and playing the fast pop pass game that we need to make an impression on the Irish defence. Care is just not good enough to be a starter against a really good team.

Backs, Farrell to 10, Teo 12 and Daley 13, May  Brown and Watson (not an international 15 yet) on the back three.

Good summary. Agree Haskell at 8. He knows exactly what to do there. I think Hughes was rushed back, so this should be a simple one.
Mako acted as old as he looks (which is about 80).
George did nothing with the ball. Nothing. He made a lot of tackles, but it seemed they ran at him all day.
Cole looks tired.

Itoje and Lawes. Itoje played tired last match and Lawes was no too far behind him. Both looked better yesterday.
Launchbury now looks shot. He is usually a machine, but he clearly ran out of petrol in the first half. Always willing, he couldn't swing the hammer later on.
Robshaw continues to play great we need more of him

Watson looked like he didn't wants to be there.
T'eo, can you actually pass????? Please
May is still up and down, but wasn't too bad

Ford was absent completely and needs some splinter time. Put Farrell back at 10 and a real ball attacking 12 outside him.

As much as I don't want to say it, Marler made holes in the D, Sinkler made holes in the D, whilst Mako and Cole did not. Since Goerge did nothing but tackle the guys who kept running at him, then clearly a new and improved front row. But the have to be under control............

[TightHEAD]

Maestegmafia

It hasn't been under the radar at all - I'm surprised you haven't heard of it. One oddity to note is that players wanting to end the game by kicking to touch from a penalty now have to tap the ball first, to avoid then needing to take the lineout. Been happening all season.

Mae only turns up for the 6nations!

[Big]

Just re-watched the dying minutes of yesterdays game, I hope the player (LCD?) who took the last play into contact and knocked it on is buying the rest of the England players drinks. There was about a 5 on 2 out wide and England would have strolled in fo the try and Farrell almost certainly would have kicked the conversion to win the game. A serious lack of composure there.

Agree. I guess that's just the pressure of the situation though.

For all the despair - I sort of agree with Eddie Jones' pre-match comments that things are rarely as bad as the hysteria when you lose, nor as good as the hype when you are winning. As disappointing as it is to lose 2 in a row, with arguably the toughest match to come - the reality is performance wise it wasn't all that different to Ireland in Paris. Ireland, hat's off to them, kept their composure and managed to get the score they needed in injury time, England came blinking close, but lost their composure and didn't quite get there (first of all giving away a soft penalty after getting within 3 meaning they needed a converted try, then the knock on when going for a potential match winning try). So, for all that Ireland have improved a bit and are deserved champions, it's not like England are suddenly terrible. We are maybe learning that we have a lack of depth in the back row and at 9 (in my view) - but that was there last year, we just didn't have the injuries to expose it.

It just shows the quality of the competition this year that potentially one team could get the GS and another come 5th despite there not being a huge difference in their standard of play. Other than Italy I think most teams are actually playing very well this year, which would make a GS all the more impressive if Ireland do manage it.

[Barney McGrew did it]

"...things are rarely as bad as the hysteria when you lose..."

Hmmm, but how many games can you lose in a row before that becomes a trite and hollow reply? I guess we could ask Borthwick. A few weeks ago we were 2nd and competing with NZ to become number one. Now we're not even the best in the NH. I think there's a lot riding on the next game for England

[Big]

"...things are rarely as bad as the hysteria when you lose..."

Hmmm, but how many games can you lose in a row before that becomes a trite and hollow reply? I guess we could ask Borthwick.  A few weeks ago we were 2nd and competing with NZ to become number one. Now we're not even the best in the NH. I think there's a lot riding on the next game for England

Is there? I suppose that's a subjective thing, and maybe to you there is a lot riding on it. I'm struggling to see it myself though. I'm sure they'd like to win, and I'd love to see us give Ireland a bit of payback for last year. But while I'll be disappointed on the day if we lose, in the grand scheme of things there is pretty much naff all riding on the next game as far as I'm concerned. They can't win anything now in this 6 nations, and at worst can move from 2nd to 3rd in the rankings (which would probably be a fair reflection of where we are). There's a limited amount any coach can do in a week, so I'm more concerned with what we see in the summer and autumn when Jones has had time to correct the problem. If Jones can't fix the problems in that kind of time scale - then that's a bigger issue and will raise more questions about the squad, even if Ireland are beaten now. Conversely, lose to Ireland now but fix the problems then win a first series in SA in the summer, and beat NZ in the autumn and this tournament would be forgotten.

As to when it becomes a trite and hollow reply - well, I guess it already is, but that doesn't change the fact it is true and always will be. Not matter how bad you are, the hysteria will always be worse... that's just human nature.

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