6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

I’ve always thought that England are a very good team and their fans are lovely and the most popular.

Feel free to add your own thoughts as we approach next weekend’s match as we travel over to visit them and celebrate with them.  And I’m sure that they’ll be as welcoming and fun-filled as they always are whenever we play them.  

As we all know, it’s only a game and sure it doesn’t matter who wins.....


Lovely England Team

Watson, May, Joseph, Te'o, Daly, Farrell, Wigglesworth, Simmonds, Haskell, Robshaw, Kruis, Itoje, Sinckler, Hartley, Mako

George, MArler, Cole, Launchbury, Armand, Care, Ford, Brown

Super Controlling Unbelievable Mauling Monster Yeti Irish Team

Kearney, Earls, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale, Sexton Murray, Stander, Leavy, O'Mahony, Ryan, Henderson, Furlong, Best, Healy.

Reps: Cronin, McGrath, Porter, Toner, Murphy, Marmion, Carbery, Larmour.

Its going to be a long week for Eddie Jones and his coaching team. The balance in the pack/back row has to be addressed, the speed (lack of) around the break down is a major concern for them and the 10/12 is an issue.

Ireland are a far more settled team and will make England pay if these issues are not resolved by Paddy's Day.

I don't know how many of you are of a gambling persuasion, but Ireland have been best priced at 101/100 (marginally better than evens) to beat England next week.

I appreciate England have a formidable record at Twickenham, not losing a Six Nations game there since the 12-19 defeat to Wales six years ago, but this seems a staggeringly generous price when you consider the current mess that the home side are in, coupled with the Irish chasing a Grand Slam.

Very, very generous. One of the bets of the year. 11/4, also, available on Ireland with the '-9' handicap if you think the away side will really dish it out.

If EJ gets his selection right, which is a massive if, then England have to be favourites. Like I say the selection, that includes captaincy, is massive.
Psychologically our backs are against the wall, we have nothing to lose, we can return the favour in defeating Ireland and take the first step in the brave new world counting down to Japan.
England expects.

kingelderfield wrote:If EJ gets his selection right, which is a massive if, then England have to be favourites. Like I say the selection, that includes captaincy, is massive.
Psychologically our backs are against the wall, we have nothing to lose, we can return the favour in defeating Ireland and take the first step in the brave new world counting down to Japan.
England expects.

Unfortunately, so does Ireland. It's not enough now, a Championship. WC development demands a win in one of the toughest rugby joints on zee planet.

A lot of hysterics about. England haven't become a terrible team.

Ignoring Italy, every single game this six nations has been won by the home side, apart from Sexton's last second drop goal to squeak past France in round 1.

Ireland have been performing this year like England the last couple of years, workmanlike, not excelling, but doing enough. There isn't a huge gulf between them.

England haven't become a terrible team but they have steadily become worse, and it would appear they've been worked out at the breakdown.

Now is where the coaches earn their keep, need to galvanise the pack and implement a strategy that'll win us the breakdown battle as you can bet the Irish will be throwing themselves into it all game.

See this is the conundrum that most coaches don't seem willing to accept.

In order to more clinically focus on breakdown excellence/intent/honesty - other aspects have to be downgraded slightly.  You have to accept a different tempo for your team and different methods of gaining those points/tries.

You can't have it every way but I feel the 'faster' teams in the 6N feel they have a right to have everything - domination at breakdown and still loose and ready players to spread a ball effortlessly and do the high jinx stuff to the try line.

There has to be a balance.

Bookies have this 50/50, offering just shy of evens on both England and Ireland:

Good job Ireland don't have a history of being uber psyched for final games v England...

Well lawes dropped. Armand in.

That'll cheer Dave Flatman up.

Question. Is Eddie not as confident in this team as he was? That's two games now where we've been struggling a and the subs have made a dramatic improvement, previously Eddie's seen this early and brought them on early, even in the first half of a game. He seems to leave it later now.

Haskel, Sinclair Armand and Hartley in. Farrell at oh. Brown at fb. Robshaw at 8
Lots of issues sorted that came up in the French and Scottish games. Infinitely more competitive and wouldn’t lose any of the physicality.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Haskel, Sinclair Armand and Hartley in. Farrell at oh. Brown at fb. Robshaw at 8
Lots of issues sorted that came up in the French and Scottish games. Infinitely more competitive and wouldn’t lose any of the physicality.

I'd say the biggest change needs to be the backrow. The second is Care dropping to the bench. We can't be that tactically clueless against Ireland they'll destroy us.

Armand's inclusion is a positive step he's both physical and combative at the breakdown. Ideally Robshaw, Haskell, Armand with Simmonds on the bench for impact with Sinckler and Launchbury.

No no no no.at the start of the tournament I questioned why Armand wasn't in the squad As he has been one of the best BRs for the last two years.
Eddie can't call him up now just to piss on our parade.
He needs to stick to his woefully inept BR he's had out the last two games so we can spank you at HQ.

Seriously he should have been in from the start.

Has to be Robshaw Simmonds and Armand. If Haskell has to have one last hurrah, and I get that does offer experience and presence at a time of low confidence, let it be from the bench where he can make a real impact.

Do not like the idea of Robshaw playing at 8. he is a 6/7 not an 8.
So if Lawes is out as well as Hughes it would be Robshaw 6/7 Armound other side and Simmonds at 8

Agreed.

Pot Hale wrote:I’ve always thought that England are a very good team and their fans are lovely and the most popular.

Not Wales then?

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I’ve always thought that England are a very good team and their fans are lovely and the most popular.

Not Wales then?

Who?

majesticimperialman wrote:Do not like the idea of Robshaw playing at 8. he is a 6/7 not an 8.
So if Lawes is out as well as Hughes it would be Robshaw 6/7 Armound other side and Simmonds at 8

I am Irish and. don’t want to rain on our possible parade but Robshaw has been the only positive about England in the last two games. Simmonds not yet a starter and haskel has to start I believe.

Simmonds has started (before injury)and should again.
I actually believe this is EJ's biggest decision of his RFU tenure. Get it wrong again, e.g; Robshaw, Haskell & Isiekwe and all bets are off and should he maintain such a selectorial approach, well let's just say l won't be watching.

I'd still watch

Robshaw isn't an 8

Robshaw, Haskell, Simmonds to start. Armand on the bench

kingelderfield wrote:Has to be Robshaw Simmonds and Armand. If Haskell has to have one last hurrah, and I get that does offer experience and presence at a time of low confidence, let it be from the bench where he can make a real impact.

Completely agree. What does Eddie gain by starting a veteran who is probably not going to be around for the next World Cup?

Don Armand is an excellent player and deserves his chance.

Off the bench though surely?

It's a balance of who is best for ireland first and foremost. If the thinking is that either can do the job and help get the win so be it. World cup isn't important on saturday and none of them will play 8 should our injured players return .

If England continue with there form this 6n, it'll be a cricket score...embarrassing

Realist..not pessimist 7.5

Not sure why anyone thinks bringing back Hartley will magically improve things. The set piece was the best part of the England performance.

George might have been disappointing with ball in hand, so were the entire team.

If George is going to be replaced it should be LCD starting not Hartley.

The problem unfortunately is bigger than one player. Hartley himself hasn't been playing well enough either.


The biggest issue is the breakdown as a collective. Of course England needs to start fielding a balanced backrow.

England look slow and ponderous - that's not an one man thing.

The leadership issue is not a one man thing.

England have to bring an intensity and sharpness of both body and mind vs Ireland which they've lacked in their last two games.

I mentioned the poor discipline after the Italy game - it was dismissed on here by England fans, now it's coming to fruition.

Also that inability to get over the gain line.

I don't think England's problems are unfixable - they just need to find a solution.

What concerns me though Beshocked is that Eddie Jones post game press conferences suggest he DOESNT know why its gone wrong. That's alarming.

Ireland will have to be prepared to really - not for public consumption, not for nice gracious sound bites - really play a truly great, hard, brutal game.  Don't think they have yet.  They've shown bits but there hasn't been a real fire-in-the-belly effort yet.

But they'll need to because they can't get lulled in this tide of depression and angst coming from England (fans, coaches/players)

This is a time when Ireland must prepare for England at its very best and be prepared to have the kitchen sink of fury and speed thrown at them.  If England aren't in a mood to meet those expectations that Ireland should train for, then so be it, Ireland will still be in the right mind-frame to play.  If England do explode out of the box with renewed intent and accuracy then at least Ireland will be ready to sustain some of that pressure to stay in the game for a time and maybe steal something at the end.

But that's the worry from my perspective, that Ireland might get lulled into thinking the job will be degrees easier because of this chat from Jones and journalists and fans. I know Schmidt is too cautious to let his players get into that mind-frame but sometimes with players in a positive mood, it can be hard to do. Sexton alluded to it only just this week. Talking about dragging the younger guys through the campaign, saying that they (younger players) probably feel they'll have numerous chances to take a title and a Slam over the next number of years, but he warned them, it isn't so in the real world and experience teaches you that.

beshocked wrote:Not sure why anyone thinks bringing back Hartley will magically improve things. The set piece was the best part of the England performance.

Scrum was good, and we were good on France's lineout, but our own lineout (especially on pressure throws) was not good.George and LCD both messed up their throws on attacking 5m lineouts, and at other times we were scrambling for the ball.

Ireland have been the best team and are worthy champs. It is interesting (to me at least) that as per last season a team has won the tournament with a match to go on the back of recording the only significant away win. Other than Italy, I believe the only away win last season was England in Wales, so far this season it has been Ireland in France. It should also be noted that both of those wins were secured very late in the game.

Thus how important will home advantage be?

LondonTiger wrote:Ireland have been the best team and are worthy champs. It is interesting (to me at least) that as per last season a team has won the tournament with a match to go on the back of recording the only significant away win. Other than Italy, I believe the only away win last season was England in Wales, so far this season it has been Ireland in France. It should also be noted that both of those wins were secured very late in the game.

Thus how important will home advantage be?

Utterly irrelevant if England come out like timid hamsters (like the last two games) and Ireland come out like demented banshees like they normally do V England.

1 Marler (Mako off the bench to carry like a demon)
2 Hartley (LCD off the bench - George is out of form)
3 Cole (Sinkler off the bench at half time) Cole's final game for England.
4 Kruis
5 Itoje
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell (just let him loose, being a huge physical pain in the a$$)
8 Hughes Armand

9 Wiggleswirth
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Watson
15 Brown

Half this team are on watch now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:1 Marler (Mako off the bench to carry like a demon)
2 Hartley (LCD off the bench - George is out of form)
3 Cole (Sinkler off the bench at half time) Cole's final game for England.
4 Kruis
5 Itoje
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell (just let him loose, being a huge physical pain in the a$$)
8 Hughes (Don't rate him at all but last chance saloon! He must carry like a demon!)

9 Wiggleswirth
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Watson
15 Brown

Half this team are on watch now.

Injured and out of the squad

Ah well Armand it is then.

This is really hard to call.

Ireland for their defensive flaws just look like a side that knows how to win right now. They are so well drilled and have so many experienced quality players in key positions they have all the tools needed to complete the job.

That said it is hard to imagine England losing 3 in a row and especially at Twickenham, so for me they have to be slight favourites, even though things don't look quite right with them.

I'm surprised that so little has been mentioned about Saracens decline this year and England's form mirroring the club performances.

Sarries have been unbeatable for a couple of years and England's team has been built around the likes of Farrell, Billy V, Itoje and they haven't hit the same heights this season.

For a side that has been so successful in recent years they just look deflated and short of confidence but this could be the game to turn it around.

Heart says Ireland but head says England will deliver at home.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Not sure why anyone thinks bringing back Hartley will magically improve things. The set piece was the best part of the England performance.

Scrum was good, and we were good on France's lineout, but our own lineout (especially on pressure throws) was not good.George and LCD both messed up their throws on attacking 5m lineouts, and at other times we were scrambling for the ball.

Well George lost 1 and LCD lose 1 - England in contrast stole 3 in a row vs France. The ball France won was worse.

You'd think England would keep prodding the ball into the corner to put more pressure but it didn't happen.

Anyway the point is even if playing Hartley means we lose 1 less lineout, he doesn't add enough extra.

It's not solely to bash Hartley. George hasn't played well either - it's just bizarre that George is starting when he's off form but when in form he wasn't.

It's not logical.

Itoje should have been dropped to the bench also.


It mattered more at hooker to play George when he was playing well.

Now it really doesn't matter who Jones picks at hooker vs Ireland IMO.

There also needs to be an intensity vs Ireland which there wasn't vs Scotland and France if England are to have a chance of winning.


There's a lack of power, and Billy has masked this problem.

Billy is a world class ball carrier when he's fully fit. England just haven't got anyone who can replace that.

I think Sarries players are all struggling at the moment and it most definitely is affecting England, but we have replacements which should have been considered in the meantime, and this hasn't been done.

Whats concerning me more is how quickly all the players seem to have "forgotten" or simply stopped doing their key roles.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Sarries players are all struggling at the moment and it most definitely is affecting England, but we have replacements which should have been considered in the meantime, and this hasn't been done.

Whats concerning me more is how quickly all the players seem to have "forgotten" or simply stopped doing their key roles.

Too much extra -curricular nonsense from Jones? Scrum camps with Georgian team, extra everything is seems - running up hills and I don't know what else but sometimes if a coach gets into a sweet shop - and the funding of RFU for the English team is sweetshop territory for Jones, they can overdo the prep needed for these campaigns.
I wonder what kind of training Townsend does. I'd say it's a rugby ball on a playing field for most of it. Train the way you'd play - this yoga and judo stuff that I've heard about over the months.... I'm sure it all has a little benefit here and there but................................... over done possibly.

secretfly Scotland have their own problems.

Excellent at home, very poor away from home.

I wouldn't necessarily say, Jones should follow Townsend.

Well don't forget Saracens contributed more than their fair share to the Lions and there's generally a Lions hangover.


England could have lost to both France and Wales last season but didn't.

England's cracks have been well and truly opened by the opposition. They've always been there. Just not exploited.

I'm not really talking about Scotland but suggesting why the edge might be off England since the question was put out there.  Over-work from a zealous coach wouldn't be a million miles away from an answer is my opinion.

I think it's too clichéd to always rush back to the Lions or a WC for form the following year- if there is a wise coach involved then they can alleviate some of that by lowering the off-field workrate.

But up until now, the continuing mantra from Jones is that the players are never fit enough or sharp enough for his liking and it seems he always sees even more intense training as the answer.

I'm saying I'd look down that avenue if a group of players together look off the boil

England need a reaction. The first 100 minutes of the tournament were decent (beating Italy and going 12-0 up against Wales), but we haven't done all that much since then. It's been a poor campaign.

England have been accused of choking Grand Slams in previous years (e.g. Ireland 2017, Wales 2013, Ireland 2011). In all those years, we played won our first 4 playing 3 at home and one narrow away win, then lost away to strong teams. The "choking" accusations was possibly a bit harsh, as away wins against strong opposition are hard to come by, the fact that it was the last game each time was just a quirk of the fixture list.

Ireland have been the best team of this 6 Nations and deserve their Championship, but they squeaked one away and then won 3 home games. I wouldn't be handing them the Grand Slam trophy just yet, because if England raise it we're capable of spoiling the party.

In terms of selection, from the 32 selected we have 4 back row players in Armand, Robshaw, Haskell and Simmonds, so we'll see 3 of them start with one on the bench (unless Jones tries something cute with Itoje or Isiekwe).

He's loaded a number of backs in the squad, and it will be interesting to see whether he goes for any major changes to the backline, or just uses the same 10 as France - possibly in a different configuration.

I think a lot of England and Saracens Lions are struggling, e.g. Vunipola, George, Kruis, Itoje and Farrell, none of them appear to be at their best. With 3 loose heads, 3 hookers, 5 locks and a number of backs, we could see some or all of them rested. Other Lions Cole, Joseph and Watson also appear to be below their best.

Regardless of the result, some of these players will need some management over the summer, potentially even skipping the tour to get fresh for the 18/19 season and the World Cup.

rodders wrote:That said it is hard to imagine England losing 3 in a row and especially at Twickenham, so for me they have to be slight favourites,

Now that they have lost 2 in a row I think we have a better chance to go on and make it 3.

Although there is bound to be a massive reaction, there will also be some niggling doubt about why things aren't working. If Ireland start strongly than England may get hit by the 'What If's'.

Something isn't quite there with England at the minute and I don't think it is just a case of things haven't clicked either.

Ireland are more ruthless than I can ever remember.

Heart says Ireland, head says Ireland as well

I think after the holliers (the Sunday off for winning the title) - now, if any young bright spark tries to be too uppity in training or thinks light of anything by way of preparation (they won't but if they do) then people like Sexton, POM, Rory and Kearney will be on their case big time, getting them back to reality pretty quickly.

That's a big bonus for Ireland.  There are a selection of central players that wouldn't be considered the most gregarious of people or the funniest - and they don't do complacency or smugness just hard work ethic and serious attention to work not complete.

It'll be a bit of a shock if England come out and play their best game of the season (not the shock bit) and Ireland - this Ireland - can't find the gears to go toe to toe with them for most of the game.

Losing to a great English performance at home wouldn't be the worst outcome as long as Ireland show they came with the right attitude to give the Slam a good honest hard attempt.

I like the historical stats when it comes to the 6N.

Just as I thought England might struggle away in Paris with a SH ref, which consistently happens.  At home with a SH ref generally factors a positive result. I think Ireland have beaten France and England away from home in a 5/6N season about once in the last fifty years.

England have looked jaded but if they just commit one extra player to the breakdown to go off their feet and seal off the ball the number of turnovers would decrease dramatically. Everyone points to a slow back row but it is far more the case that they are looking to line up the next ball carrier rather than protect their attacking ball. England should also get wise when attacking and come round the side and lift the defender off their feet which everyone else seems to do with impunity.

EJ has some interesting decisions to make. I would like to see Daly & Joseph in midfield with May & Watson on the wings and Brown at FB but doubt it would happen.
The set piece went surprisingly well in Paris with genuine pressure applied in the scrum.  If Healy gets picked there could be a repeat, although won't be a big enough factor in the game.
Ireland must be slight favourites based on form  - not sure anyone would have said that at the start of the 6N. In recent times I have always thought if you stop O'Brien & Sexton you have a chance and with one missing and the other not fully fit its going to be four point game or a thumping - take your pick.

Pot Hale wrote:I’ve always thought that England are a very good team and their fans are lovely and the most popular.

Feel free to add your own thoughts as we approach next weekend’s match as we travel over to visit them and celebrate with them.  And I’m sure that they’ll be as welcoming and fun-filled as they always are whenever we play them.  

As we all know, it’s only a game and sure it doesn’t matter who wins.....

Wow what a suck up.

That said I like the England team too, like beating them.

SecretFly wrote:I'm not really talking about Scotland but suggesting why the edge might be off England since the question was put out there.  Over-work from a zealous coach wouldn't be a million miles away from an answer is my opinion.

I think it's too clichéd to always rush back to the Lions or a WC for form the following year- if there is a wise coach involved then they can alleviate some of that by lowering the off-field workrate.

But up until now, the continuing mantra from Jones is that the players are never fit enough or sharp enough for his liking and it seems he always sees even more intense training as the answer.

I'm saying I'd look down that avenue if a group of players together look off the boil

You talked about overworking and yes perhaps that’s going on but the Lions tour drains energy of key players.
I agree perhaps the player management should be better.

I don’t see it as a coincidence that the 2 teams that beat us had very low or in the case of France – no Lions representation.

France traditionally perform better after a Lions tour.

Even Wales have suffered the Lions injury curse.

Do England need to look at central contracts? Ireland in particular have been able to manage their Lions players far more effectively due to their central contracts. Some of England's stars like Itoje and Lawes have played 3 times the amount of their Irish equivalents. That is clearly having an impact.

Yes they do. England haven't won the 6 nations after a Lions tour in over 50 years. That says a lot.