Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Here’s an easy one. Who was the first European rugby union to win all tests in a tour series in the Southern Hemisphere?

Whilst Ireland's playing history - home and away - against South Africa and New Zealand was littered with one failure after another in the amateur days, surprisingly their record against Australia is pockmarked with wins at home and on the road, albeit matches were held less frequently in the BSE - Baggy Shorts Era.

Not many people might know this, but Ireland has had 4 proper rugby tours of Australia - in 1967, 1979, 1994, and 1999. By proper, I mean old-style tours involving matches against provincial union or state teams as well as one or two test matches against the Wallabies. And rather surprisingly, Ireland have won two tours and lost two.

Ireland’s fifth tour of Australia begins with the first of three tests on 9 June and it promises to settle a few scores, mark the overall ledger up in favour of one, and probably create a few bragging and bagging rights along the way for fans and commentators.

Australia won the first two tests between the countries in 1927 and 1947 in Lansdowne Road in Dublin. On the Australian tour of Britain, Ireland and France in 1958, Ireland got their first test win on the board. Over the next 20 years, the teams met 7 times, with Ireland winning six of them, including their first-ever away test in Sydney as part of their first 6-game tour of Australia in 1967.

Ireland's last two test wins in Australia were those of the famous 1979 tour when the Irish team had their most successful winning patch, playing 8 games, including two tests, and losing just once against local representative team, Sydney.

Ollie Campbell, Mike Gibson, Terry Kennedy, Paul McNaughton, Tony Ward, Willie Duggan, Moss Keane, Fergus Slattery were some of the more well-known names on that tour. Tony Ward was the star name playing outhalf for Ireland. He had been named European Player of the Year for the second year running. All the running assumptions were that he’d play in a few of the run-up games and start the first test at the helm. A few days beforehand, the Irish manager and coach thought different and, inexplicably to nearly everyone, picked Campbell to start.

Across the two tests, Ireland scored 36 points with Campbell kicking 28 of them bringing his total to 60 points for the tour. He was named player of the tour. Ward, by his own admission in his autobiography, never played as well again and laid blame squarely at the manager and coach’s door for how they handled what became known in Irish rugby as ‘The Decision’.

Campbell returned home the hero of the hour by helping to claim the first individual tour victory in all tests by a northern team in the Southern Hemisphere. (France had won a test match but drawn the other test on tours of SA in 1958 and Oz 1972.) After the tour, Ireland’s overall win record stood at 6 wins to Australia’s 3.

Campbell and the team were cheered to the rafters. Ireland went on to win the Five Nations in 1982, shared it with France in 1983 and won it outright again in 1985. And then the curtain came down. And the roof started to fall in.

Two further 2-test tours against Australia followed in 1994 and 1999 - Ireland lost all the test matches and most of the midweek games against ACT, Sydney, and New South Wales amongst others.

Those two tours formed part of what is probably the lowest period in Irish rugby. Ireland played 11 tests against Australia, 8 versus New Zealand and 6 against South Africa between 1980 and 2002 - they lost every game. Despite their initial successes in the 1980s, their record in that period against Five/Six Nations opponents was not much better - 3 wins from 24 against France, 7 from 24 vs both England and Scotland, and even losing 3 from 8 against Italy.

From 2001 onwards, when professionalism finally took hold, and Irish provinces entered the Celtic League, the fortunes of the Irish provinces and test side changed - first under Eddie O'Sullivan, winning a test again against Australia in 2002 and for the first time against South Africa (2004). They moved from being regular wooden spooners in the 90's to competing at the top in the new Six Nations. Then they finally achieved a second Grand Slam in 2009 with Declan Kidney, 61 years after their first. They remained unbeaten that year finishing with a 15-10 win against Lions victors and the reigning Tri-Nations champions, South Africa.

Of course, after Ireland finally won again in 2002, Australia promptly won the next four tests. Another Irish win in 2006 was followed by two Wallaby wins and a draw. Then came the RWC pool match in 2011 with both teams meeting on neutral NZ territory. Australia ran into Stephen Ferris and Sean O’Brien for the first time and Will Genia found himself being picked up and carried backwards whilst his team-mates were held up time and again in the famous choke tackle and eventually out of the game. Australia won the next test in 2013, and Ireland won the next one a year later, and the next one again in 2016.

Nonetheless, Australia continue to have the upper hand - 21 wins to Ireland’s 11 (and a sister-smooching draw). But Ireland is determined to close the gap further.

So now it’s the turn of Joe Schmidt to bring the Ireland squad down-under for a three-test series in June. Expectations are high with Ireland’s recent Grand Slam win and recent record against the Wallabies.

Except they haven’t won in Oz for 39 years.

Their last away loss was in Brisbane in June 2010 as part of a NZ/Aus Tour. On that day, newcomer outhalf, Johnny Sexton, kicked all of Ireland’s 15 points in the first half, to Australia’s 16 points. But the Declan Kidney-coached team, off the back of a 97-point shellacking from the All Blacks and NZ Maori in the previous weeks, and down a few key players, couldn’t overtake the Wallabies as Giteau notched another couple of penalties to finish them off - 22-15.

Eight years on from Brisbane, both teams are in different places and ranking. Cheika is hoping to fashion a team that can compete and win in the Rugby Championship. He needs a decent scalp on his belt going into that battle. Schmidt has the 6N in his back pocket and a team that is beginning to hum nicely with a mix of old heads and young hearts running a new 12-match streak. Ireland are the current holders of the Lansdowne Cup - the trophy fought between the two sides since 1999.

England, Scotland & Wales have announced squads with development and player rest on their minds as coaches seek to add depth to their squads for RWC 2019. Irish pundits and fans have been making similar noises querying whether players such as Sexton, Murray, Furlong, Stander should rest up on their summer hols and let the younger Turks get more time and experience. Schmidt has faced this before, imposed through injury rather than selection by choice, when he brought a relatively raw squad to South Africa and gave much needed game time to some new faces including Furlong, Henderson, Roux, Stander, and Marmion.

Schmidt will want to win the series, but he needs to give more time to the newbies. He’s got a few injuries such as Henderson, O’Brien, Farrell, Best but still has plenty of choice this time around and all of them hungry for some tasty wallaby.

Ireland Squad (Summer Tour 2018, Australia)

FORWARDS (18)

Tadhg Beirne (Scarlets) uncapped
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 7 caps
Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 61 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 23 caps
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 78 caps
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 38 caps
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 3 caps
Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 9 caps
Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 47 caps
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 20 caps
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 47 caps
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 7 caps
Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht) 5 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 8 caps
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 13 caps
Niall Scannell (Munster) 4 caps
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 23 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 58 caps

BACKS (14)
Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 7 caps
Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) uncapped
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 10 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 6 caps
John Cooney (Terenure College RFC/Ulster) 1 cap
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 67 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 33 caps
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 83 caps
Jordan Larmour (St Mary's College/Leinster) 3 caps
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 21 caps
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 64 caps
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 13 caps
Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 73 caps
Jacob Stockdale (Ballynahnch/Ulster) 9 caps

IRELAND SUMMER TOUR 2018 FIXTURES

Saturday 9th June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane, KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)

Saturday 16th June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
AAMI Park, Melbourne, KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)

Saturday 23rd June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
Allianz Park, Sydney KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)


Ireland win the series 2-1 with the final test in Sydney ending 20-16.

Here’s my pick assuming they’re fit and available:

3 Hookers: Best, Scannell, Tracy
5 Props: Bealham, Furlong, Kilcoyne, McGrath, Porter
5 Locks: Dillane, Henderson, J Ryan, Roux, Beirne
5 B-Rows: Conan, Stander, Ruddock, VdFlier, Leavy
3 S-Halves: McGrath, Marmion, Cooney
2 O-Halves: Carbery, Sexton
4 Centres: Henshaw, Ringrose, Scannell, Farrell
5 B-Three: Earls, Stockdale, Larmour, Conway, O’Halloran

Halleluiah!

Great stuff, Pot.

It's surprising how stale the 6N is becoming already.  Surprised myself by how certain I was that it was coming when I first looked at our squad list - and then how quickly the exhilaration and happiness dissipated when it was achieved.  Almost a Triple Crown feel to it.  
It's lovely and I was delighted, and I'll think back to it, and it's in the history books, and nobody can take it from us..... but it's time to move on already to Australia.

So back almost to a restart position for Ireland and players
- expect nothing to be easy,
- meticulously pick through their weaknesses (that's your job Joe)
- don't remotely try to arrive thinking 2nd ranked side in the world will protect us from a total humiliation if we're smug, have an over valued sense of our ability or have a under valued expectation of what Australia can do.  

I know Schmidt won't allow such complacency to exist, but there is a real chance now for us to mature and learn how to seriously deal with the reality that sides are gunning for us. Now we're the side with the valuable points to steal.  Now we're top dog and every aspect of our game will be gone over with a fine tooth comb by Cheika.  

We have to be ready to show him why we achieved 2nd ranking status - we have to meet the expectations that such a loft ranking demands.  In short, we'll have to play better than any game we played this year so far - and we'll have to do it three times.  Australia are masters of ambush and one shock is all it might take to turn our now ultra confident young guys into players that doubt the wisdom of absolutely everything they do.  Australia have the tools to spook our younger guys if Cheika prepares well enough.  
It's new territory for us to defend a ranking position we now fully believe we deserve to hold.

Pot Hale wrote:Here’s my pick assuming they’re fit and available:

3 Hookers: Best, Scannell, Tracy
5 Props: Bealham, Furlong, Kilcoyne, McGrath, Porter
5 Locks: Dillane, Henderson, J Ryan, Roux, Beirne
5 B-Rows: Conan, Stander, Ruddock, VdFlier, Leavy
3 S-Halves: McGrath, Marmion, Cooney
2 O-Halves: Carbery, Sexton
4 Centres: Henshaw, Ringrose, Scannell, Farrell
5 B-Three: Earls, Stockdale, Larmour, Conway, O’Halloran

So of 6N mainstays, you'd rest only Murray, Healy and Bundee?

I think if Sexton is to travel (and I can see the logic in it to keep Daddy Playmaker around to secure things a bit) then I think it'd be best to take Murray too. At least then you might try Murray with Carbury which would be I'm sure the combo at WC if Sexton got injured. So take Murray and play him an Sexton separately?

SecretFly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Here’s my pick assuming they’re fit and available:

3 Hookers: Best, Scannell, Tracy
5 Props: Bealham, Furlong, Kilcoyne, McGrath, Porter
5 Locks: Dillane, Henderson, J Ryan, Roux, Beirne
5 B-Rows: Conan, Stander, Ruddock, VdFlier, Leavy
3 S-Halves: McGrath, Marmion, Cooney
2 O-Halves: Carbery, Sexton
4 Centres: Henshaw, Ringrose, Scannell, Farrell
5 B-Three: Earls, Stockdale, Larmour, Conway, O’Halloran

So of 6N mainstays, you'd rest only Murray, Healy and Bundee?

I think if Sexton is to travel (and I can see the logic in it to keep Daddy Playmaker around to secure things a bit) then I think it'd be best to take Murray too.  At least then you might try Murray with Carbury which would be I'm sure the combo at WC if Sexton got injured.  So take Murray and play him an Sexton separately?

Possibly - I've omitted Kearney and Toner as well. Joe said this last year: “We have a three-Test tour to Australia, and that’s not an opportunity to learn for young players,” when he handed out eight new caps. “You’ve got to have a pretty strong squad to survive down there.”

So he needs a Captain and a wise head. But hooker is a key position, along with 9, 10 and 15. So we need to develop replacements in case of pre-RWC injury or during it. Cronin is Mr Super-sub. So we need someone else. My instinct says that is Scannell. So he needs game time. We also need a replacement captain, and probably not Sexton or Murray, they've enough on their plates. Stander or POM would possibly work.

Props - I actually left out Marty Moore who might fancy a chance to get back in Joe's good books, but he may be left until November, unless Bealham is being left to one side - although he covers both sides usefully. Furlong has had his minutes managed so possibly he could be left out and Porter put in the spotlight.

Locks - Toner the obvious Japan traveller to leave out to give others time. Toner's playing clock is also higher than most of the squad. I don't think Treadwell is going to get any more chances. Roux and Dillane are on the outer. Beirne is the new boy but his clock with Scarlets has to be over 1500 minutes at this point already - he may be too shot to handle a tough trip to Oz, and Joe won't want passengers I presume.

Back rows. You'll have noticed I left out SOB. Now if he gets fit and plays again next month then he'd be ideal to bring as a "fresh' very experienced head. And Stander could be stood down with Conan/SOB covering 8.

I left out Murray simply on the basis he's been used a lot more than Sexton to date. And whatever about 10, we badly need a solid back-up 9. Cooney has the advantage of being a back-up 10 and also a not too shabby place-kicker. If Murray has to go, then I'd drop Marmion.

Out-halves? Johnny will want to go - and he's Joe's chief disciple on the field. The Aussies won't want him, and that's a strong enough reason since they're at 6s and 7s about who their playmaker is. Whilst Cheika has an aversion to a kicking game, and is trying to pursue a ball-in-hand game, he's going to need to change things up and use Folau's height and catching ability to strike out wide. Carbery provides a good alternative type playmaker and who Joe wants to develop in the role. Bleyendaal is out with another injury for the season and I suspect that ends his chances of ever donning a green shirt. It'll be Six Nations 2020 before he gets an opportunity and age will probably be against him under a new coach/regime.

Aki has run up a lot of minutes this season - equivalent to the English players - and may be too fatigued for travelling to Aus in comparison to others who need more development. The Henshaw/Ringrose partnership needs to be established, and Farrell needs more opportunities. Scannell is a back-up.

Back three. Drop Rob Kearney and Joe gets the shivers. But, but, someone else has to be able to step into the role in case Rob doesn't make it. Zebo has gone, so Conway and Larmour need time.

Id leave the 3 must haves in the team at home - Best, Sexton and Murray but otherwise take the strongest possible team
We need to expose the cover we have in those positions

I missed that you dropped Kearney there, Pot.  I think Toner has now become/or is quickly becoming a bencher...even though there might be a debate about that after Summer depending on how things go.

In a way, Kearney - by his sheer wildfire performance this 6N - is now ironically as essential to game safety (results-wise) as perhaps Sexton and Murray.

Now Kearney could go two ways from here.  He could be like BOD was who went through a drop-off period before coming back like a storm for his final years.  So Kearney's form might last now at least until the WC, if he's managed well.  
Or he may fall off now as there was a aspect of a man giving it his all in that 6N campaign. He expended a lot of energy for one of the more mature players - maybe he was feeling one last all out effort to win one more Cup.  We'll see how he goes from here on in.  But based on current form, and if we want to assure at least one win if not two, Kearney's command of that rear-guard defensive line, his directions to lesser experienced players, would be invaluable.

The more I think about it, few guys should be left at home.  Take them along and then base their presence in an actual team, or on the bench, on Schmidt's assessment of how the understudies are doing in training.  Joe will have a pretty good idea at that point what the Australian challenge is in terms of threats and he'll be able to work out which of the rookies in which positions can handle it.  If Kearney wasn't needed, then let him or Murray or Sexton lie by a pool for one or two of the games. But if things were unravelling, put him on to attempt saving even one last game.

I suppose it's worth thinking too that Cheika will be using the games to attempt his own squad building exercise, so he'll hardly throw his designated first choicers at us for all three games.

Two ex-Leinster coaches hot and at it in Oz!

If Lancaster finally goes back to a big job at International, will it then be true that Leinster is the club to go to as a finishing school for top end International coaches?

Pot Hale wrote: This was the tour where Ollie Campbell came of age. The tour where the old Master, Tony Ward, was upset, upstaged, dropped and replaced by the upcoming apprentice.  

I was quite interested to read the old names. Fergus slattery was a favourite for many back rowers of my vintage, but I always had a soft spot for John O'Driscoll.

However I found the bit I have quoted interesting as I considered Ward and Campbell to be of the same vintage.

Checking up on them Campbell is the older by 7 months and made his Irish debut two years before Ward (Jan 76 vs Jan 78). Now to be fair at the point of the tour in 79, Ward had 9 caps (ultimately getting 20) and Campbell had not been capped since his debut.

Kearney unless injured will be our starting fullback for the RWC. He will only be 33 at the time of the RWC so I reckon it is unlikely anyone will root him out before then.

LondonTiger wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: This was the tour where Ollie Campbell came of age. The tour where the old Master, Tony Ward, was upset, upstaged, dropped and replaced by the upcoming apprentice.  

I was quite interested to read the old names. Fergus slattery was a favourite for many back rowers of my vintage, but I always had a soft spot for John O'Driscoll.

However I found the bit I have quoted  interesting as I considered Ward and Campbell to be of the same vintage.

Checking up on them Campbell is the older by 7 months and made his Irish debut two years before Ward (Jan 76 vs Jan 78). Now to be fair at the point of the tour in 79, Ward had 9 caps (ultimately getting 20) and Campbell had not been capped since his debut.

You’re quite right LT. I was taking some literary license with my wording but Ward did see himself as the incumbent and I remember the endless debates about the pair when it came to selection time with two camps firmly established around their man and why he should be getting the 10 jersey. Ward was probably the more mercurial of the two with playmaking skills, and Campbell the safer choice in getting his team around the park and managing to accumulate points through the boot. No doubt, there’s someone out there who’d say the exact opposite!

Collapse2005 wrote:Kearney unless injured will be our starting fullback for the RWC. He will only be 33 at the time of the RWC so I reckon it is unlikely anyone will root him out before then.

Probably. though there is time for up and comers to complete their journey I guess.

I do find it interesting that Schmidt, Jones and Gats are likely to stick with the safe option (Kearney, Brown (not much older than the Leinster man) and 1/2p) over the more adventurous options (Larmour, Watson, Williams)

Lets say Larmour has a blast down under - at 15.  Really shows us a different approach to 15.  Let's say it helps the other strands of Ireland's attacking pretensions really hit the ground running.  Let's say it shocks Australia who might have been expecting a safer Kearney approach...
Let's say the journalistic world is alight with tales about this young man's exploits down under.  I'm only using Larmour as an example.  Could be Carbury - whoever.

Well then, Schmidt would have to reward such a performance with a starting spot in the Autumn.

Let's say Larmour has another good session there.  Impresses everyone - journalists, Joe.

Well then, Schmidt would need a very strong argument for not including Larmour in the position for the next 6N.  People would be getting to the point where they are regarding Larmour as the 'nailed on' player that must have a howler then to be dropped.

WC next?  Kearney or Larmour?

So it could potentially happen quite quickly that Kearney's heroics through this 6N could be as quickly forgotten as Conway's performance has been largely forgotten since Autumn.  People forget quickly, the present is what they look at.

I'm not saying that WILL happen - and I'll be delighted for Kearney if he makes the WC and more importantly has a very very good one.  But whoever might slot in for him perhaps in the Summer tour, they'll be ambitious and they'll want to put in a performance that knocks Kearney off his perch.  They'll expect reward if they play good enough to impress Joe.

Pot Hale wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Pot Hale wrote: This was the tour where Ollie Campbell came of age. The tour where the old Master, Tony Ward, was upset, upstaged, dropped and replaced by the upcoming apprentice.  

I was quite interested to read the old names. Fergus slattery was a favourite for many back rowers of my vintage, but I always had a soft spot for John O'Driscoll.

However I found the bit I have quoted  interesting as I considered Ward and Campbell to be of the same vintage.

Checking up on them Campbell is the older by 7 months and made his Irish debut two years before Ward (Jan 76 vs Jan 78). Now to be fair at the point of the tour in 79, Ward had 9 caps (ultimately getting 20) and Campbell had not been capped since his debut.

You’re quite right LT.  I was taking some literary license with my wording but Ward did see himself as the incumbent and I remember the endless debates about the pair when it came to selection time with two camps firmly established around their man and why he should be getting the 10 jersey.  Ward was probably the more mercurial of the two with playmaking skills, and Campbell the safer choice in getting his team around the park and managing to accumulate points through the boot.   No doubt, there’s someone out there who’d say the exact opposite!  

That was certainly how I saw the pair, Pot. As a forward I tended to value Campbell's consistency over Ward's peaks and troughs. In general so do coaches (Andrew vs Barnes, Merhtens v Spencer etc)

Anyway a nice reminder of times gone by, but time to leave this to the present and future I guess.

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Kearney unless injured will be our starting fullback for the RWC. He will only be 33 at the time of the RWC so I reckon it is unlikely anyone will root him out before then.

Probably. though there is time for up and comers to complete their journey I guess.

I do find it interesting that Schmidt, Jones and Gats are likely to stick with the safe option (Kearney, Brown (not much older than the Leinster man) and 1/2p) over the more adventurous options (Larmour, Watson, Williams)

To me its exactly what I would expect them to do. All world cup winning sides have very experienced players in key positions being 2-8-9-10-15. I think had Heaslip not retired he would have been retained too.

For Ireland at the next RWC the spine will be:

2- Best
8- Stander
9-Murray
10-Sexton
15-Kearney

All very experienced (over 60 caps) bar CJ Stander who will probably be on about 35.

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Kearney unless injured will be our starting fullback for the RWC. He will only be 33 at the time of the RWC so I reckon it is unlikely anyone will root him out before then.

Probably. though there is time for up and comers to complete their journey I guess.

I do find it interesting that Schmidt, Jones and Gats are likely to stick with the safe option (Kearney, Brown (not much older than the Leinster man) and 1/2p) over the more adventurous options (Larmour, Watson, Williams)

Last line of defence with experienced eyes scanning what’s happening and directing players to move. The weaker match in pool stages is where the back-up is most likely to play barring enforced injury changes. Cotton wool for Best, Murray, Sexton and Kearney during 2018/19 although Sexton is reveling in getting more game time and seeking to impose his will/management on games. He’s hit his last stint in the sun and post-RWC knows he’ll have to give way.

I haven’t mentioned Jackson for obvious reasons, but if his case ends not-guilty, would he still be considered for inclusion?

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Kearney unless injured will be our starting fullback for the RWC. He will only be 33 at the time of the RWC so I reckon it is unlikely anyone will root him out before then.

Probably. though there is time for up and comers to complete their journey I guess.

I do find it interesting that Schmidt, Jones and Gats are likely to stick with the safe option (Kearney, Brown (not much older than the Leinster man) and 1/2p) over the more adventurous options (Larmour, Watson, Williams)

To me its exactly what I would expect them to do. All world cup winning sides have very experienced players in key positions being 2-8-9-10-15. I think had Heaslip not retired he would have been retained too.

For Ireland at the next RWC the spine will be:

2- Best
8- Stander
9-Murray
10-Sexton
15-Kearney

All very experienced (over 60 caps) bar CJ Stander who will probably be on about 35.

What is the cover like in those key positions and who would be the biggest loss?

My gut feel says Best as despite being rather old and not at his peak he seems unthreatened. That may be a reflection on my lack of knowledge though on the back ups.
Your back row resources seem fine and would cope just grand without Stander.
Murray is class, but as you showed when denying us the GS last year you can cope without him.
Carberry has looked good at 10 and there are lots of quality back 3 players available.

Pot Hale wrote:

I haven’t mentioned Jackson for obvious reasons, but if his case ends not-guilty, would he still be considered for inclusion?

Why?

I know he was a good slot-in for Sexton but he was keeping others from having a shot (not his problem and good on him for doing the biz to keep 2nd spot) but another has stepped in now (might be less assured in some areas still, might be classier in other areas)  
Jackson walking back in and starting where he left off...  I'm not talking about trials here or punishment here.  I talking about the luck of the spin - he's been out, Carbury hasn't done much wrong in his little cameos.  
I'm not sure Jackson should just walk back into camp and in a way slide Carbury out of that loop again.  Carbury needs to have a few f**k ups before that should happen  I hope the hell he don't if played!!!

Interestingly enough, over on the Ulster thread, some of the boys were talking about the seeming possibility that Carbury might go North.

I would like us for the first game put out our best side which I believe is:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. Henderson
5. Ryan/Toner
6. POM/SOB
7. Leavy/VdF
8. Stander
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Stockdale
12. Aki/Henshaw
13. Ringrose/Farrell/Payne
14. Earls/Conway
15.Kearney

Then as the tour progresses include players like Conan, Carbery, McGrathx2, Dillane, Porter, Byrne(?), Larmour, Treadwell etc.

The reason to take Jackson is simple - he remains a better player than Carbery.
Does not mean Carbery doesn't travel - more realistically Keatley would be left at home

Also suprprised no one else picked on Beirne.
We should get him involved asap

Also please forget Payne - he is finished.

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Kearney unless injured will be our starting fullback for the RWC. He will only be 33 at the time of the RWC so I reckon it is unlikely anyone will root him out before then.

Probably. though there is time for up and comers to complete their journey I guess.

I do find it interesting that Schmidt, Jones and Gats are likely to stick with the safe option (Kearney, Brown (not much older than the Leinster man) and 1/2p) over the more adventurous options (Larmour, Watson, Williams)

To me its exactly what I would expect them to do. All world cup winning sides have very experienced players in key positions being 2-8-9-10-15. I think had Heaslip not retired he would have been retained too.

For Ireland at the next RWC the spine will be:

2- Best
8- Stander
9-Murray
10-Sexton
15-Kearney

All very experienced (over 60 caps) bar CJ Stander who will probably be on about 35.

What is the cover like in those key positions and who would be the biggest loss?

My gut feel says Best as despite being rather old and not at his peak he seems unthreatened. That may be a reflection on my lack of knowledge though on the back ups.
Your back row resources seem fine and would cope just grand without Stander.
Murray is class, but as you showed when denying us the GS last year you can cope without him.
Carberry has looked good at 10 and there are lots of quality back 3 players available.

Behind Best we have a handful of competent but unspectacular covers.
He is playing as well as ever imv but game time needs managing

Stander is not critical - not because he is not good but because of the wealth of talent we have in the backrow.
Conan is an excellent replacement

Behind Murray - we have three very decent scrum halves but none a patch on him - Murray is World Class

Behind Sexton - the best player is Jackson but he has a huge cloud over him at the moment
Carbery is a talent player but not ready to manage a game at this level.

Actually there are not a lot of quality back three players available - behind Kearney, Stockdale, Earls imv we only have the exciting but raw Larmour and the decent Gilroy.
After that a bunch of players who are in significant decline (Trimble, McFadden, Kearney) or players who have yet to convince they are ready for this level (Bryne, Sweetnam, O'Halloran + friends at Connacht)

geoff999rugby wrote:The reason to take Jackson is simple - he remains a better player than Carbery.
Does not mean Carbery doesn't travel - more realistically Keatley would be left at home

Also suprprised no one else picked on Beirne.
We should get him involved asap

Also please forget Payne - he is finished.

Beirne is right in there in Pot's list.  I think it's a given Schmidt will take him.  

Jackson better than Carbery?  Well, he's had more quality time there, that's for sure.  The rest is in the lap of the Gods.

[quote="geoff999rugby"]

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Kearney unless injured will be our starting fullback for the RWC. He will only be 33 at the time of the RWC so I reckon it is unlikely anyone will root him out before then.

Probably. though there is time for up and comers to complete their journey I guess.

I do find it interesting that Schmidt, Jones and Gats are likely to stick with the safe option (Kearney, Brown (not much older than the Leinster man) and 1/2p) over the more adventurous options (Larmour, Watson, Williams)

To me its exactly what I would expect them to do. All world cup winning sides have very experienced players in key positions being 2-8-9-10-15. I think had Heaslip not retired he would have been retained too.

For Ireland at the next RWC the spine will be:

2- Best
8- Stander
9-Murray
10-Sexton
15-Kearney

All very experienced (over 60 caps) bar CJ Stander who will probably be on about 35.

What is the cover like in those key positions and who would be the biggest loss?

For me it is Sexton without doubt.

Murray is absolutely critical but I honestly think we could manage ok - McGrath, Marmion and Cooney are all good players and doing well provincial.

Carbury looks class but has so little experience in comparison and not even second choice and Leinster, then you are looking at Keatley.

Everyone else we could manage comfortably without, with the exception of Furlong maybe.

Id probably agree although in some ways Best would be as big a loss because although there is a good leadership group he is our captain and still better than all other options as a and hooker.

Murray of course would be a huge loss but encouragingly we did beat England without Murray last year.

Fly to be clear I do see Carbery as a very exciting prospect but he is not at the stage Jackson was before his enforced absents and I suspect he wont be for the WC.
He is 22 - very young for a 10, 2023 and 2027 are his WCs to shine not 2019.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Behind Best we have a handful of competent but unspectacular covers.
He is playing as well as ever imv but game time needs managing

Stander is not critical - not because he is not good but because of the wealth of talent we have in the backrow.
Conan is an excellent replacement

Behind Murray - we have three very decent scrum halves but none a patch on him - Murray is World Class

Behind Sexton - the best player is Jackson but he has a huge cloud over him at the moment
Carbery is a talent player but not ready to manage a game at this level.

Actually there are not a lot of quality back three players available - behind Kearney, Stockdale, Earls imv we only have the exciting but raw Larmour and the decent Gilroy.
After that a bunch of players who are in significant decline (Trimble, McFadden, Kearney) or players who have yet to convince they are ready for this level (Bryne, Sweetnam, O'Halloran + friends at Connacht)

I would consider Andrew Conway for a W/FB utility. And McFadden is still reliable enough for the 23 jersey.

geoff999rugby wrote:Fly to be clear I do see Carbery as a very exciting prospect but he is not at the stage Jackson was before his enforced absents and I suspect he wont be for the WC.
He is 22 - very young for a 10, 2023 and 2027 are his WCs to shine not 2019.

To be fair to Carbery he has had a few very encouraging cameos at this stage in very big games. He is getting there. Needs to go on loan to Ulster.

geoff999rugby wrote:
Behind Best we have a handful of competent but unspectacular covers.
He is playing as well as ever imv but game time needs managing

Stander is not critical - not because he is not good but because of the wealth of talent we have in the backrow.
Conan is an excellent replacement

Behind Murray - we have three very decent scrum halves but none a patch on him - Murray is World Class

Behind Sexton - the best player is Jackson but he has a huge cloud over him at the moment
Carbery is a talent player but not ready to manage a game at this level.

Actually there are not a lot of quality back three players available - behind Kearney, Stockdale, Earls imv we only have the exciting but raw Larmour and the decent Gilroy.
After that a bunch of players who are in significant decline (Trimble, McFadden, Kearney) or players who have yet to convince they are ready for this level (Bryne, Sweetnam, O'Halloran + friends at Connacht)

I think Niall Scannell is real quality. He is big and powerful, has good skills and solid darts. He has also captained sides. Very unlucky with a thumb injury in november and a rib injury just before the 6 nations squad was announced.


Conan is next in line behind Stander but I think Max Deegan could pass him out. Deegan is a class player.


Agree re Murray and Sexton. If Jackson gets off the hook, he should be back in the squad though with a warning to ease up on the partying. I'd say he knows that himself! Carbery needs SOME game time at 10 otherwise it could be damaging to his Ireland career. Keatley isn't mentally strong enough to play for Ireland.


I agree about the back 3. Schmist seems to be involving Leinster winger Daly in the squads. Daly is supposed to be the fastest player in the country and he has a good try scoring record so he could be a bolter. Matt Healy and Wootton are having fine seasons.

The drop off in quality from Murray and to a lesser extent sexton is our biggest problem/weakness. Will be interesting to see how this will be solved. It’s not like having ward Campbell and then Paul Dean in quick succession.

Though we did say that about BOD, and we did say it about POC and we did say it about O'Brien at times, and it was thought it might happen when Henshaw got injured, and some felt we were f**ked when Farrell got done in training.

I think the moral of Ireland - not just the recent few weeks but in general - is that nobody is ever so important that they can't be replaced.  Murray is Murray and Sexton is Sexton and when the two of them are together and purring, well we look pretty potent.  But new dynamics happen when new players come in and not always negative dynamics either.  

There'll come a time when both Murray and Sexton will be replaced and the alternatives won't ever really be able to prove what they can bring until they get the bedded-in time to settle and show it.  Sexton was held back for quite a while because O'Gara was still king and people feared a drop off with the young grumpy pup taking over.  

And the way I find dynamics work is that even if there was a drop off of quality in the nine position if Murray was out injured long term - the extra quality required to keep us winning might be solidified in a new position.  The 9 and 10 now get all the plaudits because the game we play channels through them and they're damn good at servicing it - but a while back nobody was talking too much about Redden or even Stringer. The heady twosome that got most press back then was BOD and D'arcy... or even BOD and O'Gara; 12 and 13 or 10 and 13.  The axis of team potency doesn't automatically have to be 9 and 10.

I don’t doubt the sentiment fly but the fact is the drop off in quality of
A. Not having both half backs playing would be (currently) perilous against a top tier team.
B. Having either one missing would be highly uncomfortable

The current replacements (besides Carbery ) have been around a while.

My bad re Conway he absolutely belongs there.
Gives us a cover backthree of Gilroy, Larmour, Conway
After that the full off comes - so I suppose not too shabby in having a decent back up three
Cant agree re McFadden to me he is simply isn't up to this level anymore and is in noticeable decline

Scannell is decent, Herring is decent, Cronin is decent etc etc - trouble is none of them are as good as Best and it is
Best along with the half backs is where the fall off comes.
I actually think the 3 cover 9s are all good players - trouble is they suffer by comparison with a World Class 9.
Same could be said for Jackson who if he gets sorted out is a good 10 - Sexton has the World Class label also imv.
We have good cover at half back but our first choices are so good they suffer by comparison

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:The drop off in quality from Murray and to a lesser extent sexton is our biggest problem/weakness. Will be interesting to see how this will be solved. It’s not like having ward Campbell and then Paul Dean in quick succession.

At least with Murray we know we can beat England without him and Carbery has closed out some key games without Sexton.

Since this is the most 'alive' Irish centric rugby thread remaining, I'll use it as our go-to general news and thoughts thread for now.
I was just reading up on my rugby bits and pieces a while back and I see what was the International Rugby Players Association has moved Headquarters from New Zealand to Ireland. (not sure I like that idea as New Zealand deserves respect for what it's given our game and everything being slap bang in Dublin or Europe is not a 'supreme authority capital' idea I like)

But that's only a side issue.  I was laughing at the fact that some Corporate Identity Creators must have got a nice profit packet in recent times because what was once International Rugby Players Association has now been rebranded to coincide with the move.  These rebranding exercises can often mean major bucks for the image companies that are given the contracts to do the changes.

But I suppose, if you do the work and the research, that should get its just rewards and I have to admit the new title is much more punchy and modern than the old one.

International Rugby Players

- inspired.

Likely World cup squad

Fullback: Kearney,  Larmour
Wing: Stockdale, Earls, Conway
Centre: Aki, Ringrose, Henshaw
Fly half - Sexton, Carbury, Keatley
SH - Murray, Marmion, McGrath
Back row- Stander, O' Mahoney, O'Brien, Leavy
Lock - Henderson, Toner, Ryan, Beirne(?)
Prop - Furlong, Healy, Porter, McGrath, Ryan
Hooker: Best, Cronin, Herring

Possibles - Farrell, VDF, Dillane, Roux, Murphy, Ruddock, Conan, Scannell, Scannell, Payne, Dave Kearney.

Personally I don't see anyone outside this making it and expect to see a good few of these tour and get game time.

Agree with the point above that Deeghan is better than Conan but think the RWC is too soon for him. Not sure Beirne has time to make it but the fact he covers lock and backrow will help, so will be interesting to see if he goes to Australia.

Beirne will make it of my name ain't Lord Cecil Horatio Clancy!

We'll see, I'm not convinced you know.

He's been incredible at Scarlets but not sure he is high on Joe's radar. The fact that Joe hasn't really been in direct contact with him in the way he was with other exiles like Farrell would suggest that.

He is fairly small for a second row and given the depth at back row that might work against him.

Toner, Hendo and Ryan look nailed on as first choice.

I like Beirne but not sure he's made a good career move, it might be he found the right team in Scarlets to maximize his ability and strengths.

It will be interesting to see what Joe does with him, certainly he he could be some asset if he fitted in.

Not saying he'll make any teams.  But this is the thing I've said often over the years and, truly, I think it's beginning to work for us now.  

The reason the ABs are the ABs is the quality of their training.  When you play against top quality squad mates, when you run through plays and have lethally fast or strong players testing such plays to the limit, then the quality of the efforts go up - often beyond the sharpness needed for an actual game against a specific opposition.
The quality of the personnel in training camps is what hones the top teams to play well in games themselves.

I think Ireland has always struggled in that area.  We've often had just about 15 players with the right makeup to play International but when they trained, the quality wasn't always there to push them hard enough or test out their systems to the highest degree.

Now I think we have that and players allude to it.  So Beirne would add to the spice of preparing the guys that would face Australia - then he also gets bedded into the systems and then Joe makes his decision whether he wants him long term or not.

Fly I have no idea why you continue to persist listing Payne

I'll say it now - HE WILL NEVER PLAY FORE IRELAND AGAIN
I also am 95% the same can be said for Ulster

Also if Jackson returns he will go
Even if you believe Carbery is ahead of him, I don't, he is a country mile ahead of Keatley

I also think we will take another backrower - Conan.
We need a natural 8 as cover for Stander

Regarding Beirne - sure Toner, Henderson and Ryan will go but we need a 4th lock.
Dillane hasn't shown up this year and Roux is limited

I never mentioned Payne except to ask why he was on someone's list....?

Jesus Geoff, calm down man...we WON!!! England lost it in the first half. The Slam is ours. You were dreaming that it all went pear shaped....

rodders wrote:We'll see, I'm not convinced you know.

He's been incredible at Scarlets but not sure he is high on Joe's radar. The fact that Joe hasn't really been in direct contact with him in the way he was with other exiles like Farrell would suggest that.

He is fairly small for a second row and given the depth at back row that might work against him.

Toner, Hendo and Ryan look nailed on as first choice.

I like Beirne but not sure he's made a good career move, it might be he found the right team in Scarlets to maximize his ability and strengths.

It will be interesting to see what Joe does with him, certainly he he could be some asset if he fitted in.

Anyone remember the hype around Robin Copeland when he was at the Blues?

Copeland was about the only Munster player doing anything that might be called playing rugby last weekend though. Dreadful performance from Munster players. He provided just some brave resistance to the apathy going on around him.

I do remember hype about him and thought about him when I reflected on how careers can go in strange ways.

That's why we should be cautious about some of the new young GS winners.  Will they all last now and become giants of the game or will some of them find that things move quickly and the train doesn't wait.  
I think of Farrell - he had such an opportunity to make a defining contribution to not only the 6N but to his career.  He did make a defining contribution to the 6N but will he get such an opportunity again at that level?  I listened to him in interview recently - he seemed a little down.  The tone was that the injury might have cruelly rolled the dice away from him and he might be lucky to get another shot now. He was trying to be upbeat about his place in the Slam win but he was sullen too.

Collapse2005 wrote:

rodders wrote:We'll see, I'm not convinced you know.

He's been incredible at Scarlets but not sure he is high on Joe's radar. The fact that Joe hasn't really been in direct contact with him in the way he was with other exiles like Farrell would suggest that.

He is fairly small for a second row and given the depth at back row that might work against him.

Toner, Hendo and Ryan look nailed on as first choice.

I like Beirne but not sure he's made a good career move, it might be he found the right team in Scarlets to maximize his ability and strengths.

It will be interesting to see what Joe does with him, certainly he he could be some asset if he fitted in.

Anyone remember the hype around Robin Copeland when he was at the Blues?

Yes but the thing is it was a deserved then as it is now. Copeland was a monster at the blues so I would be wanting to see how Beirne fits in at Munster before I'd get too excited.

I'm not 100% convinced it will go that well, Munster are solid at lock with Holland and Kleyn, do they see him as Hollands replacement or do they see him more as a 6?

Given O'Mahoney is nailed on at 6 its hard to see him starting there in the big games there.

Holland is solid but nothing more than that.

Everyone fit next year ?
Holland doesn't make the team

Copeland did look good at the Blues but he never played to the heights Beirne has at Scarlets

rodders wrote:Likely World cup squad

Fullback: Kearney,  Larmour
Wing: Stockdale, Earls, Conway
Centre: Aki, Ringrose, Henshaw
Fly half - Sexton, Carbury, Keatley
SH - Murray, Marmion, McGrath
Back row- Stander, O' Mahoney, O'Brien, Leavy
Lock - Henderson, Toner, Ryan, Beirne(?)
Prop - Furlong, Healy, Porter, McGrath, Ryan
Hooker: Best, Cronin, Herring

Possibles - Farrell, VDF, Dillane, Roux, Murphy, Ruddock, Conan, Scannell, Scannell, Payne, Dave Kearney.

Personally I don't see anyone outside this making it and expect to see a good few of these tour and get game time.

Agree with the point above that Deeghan is better than Conan but think the RWC is too soon for him.  Not sure Beirne has time to make it but the fact he covers lock and backrow will help, so will be interesting to see if he goes to Australia.

That’s 30 players, who’s your 31st, Rodders? You’re short a midfielder. Also it could be just 2 scrum-halves and 4 flankers and 1 No.8

Another name being murmured in media for consideration at lock, albeit a long shot. Jean Kleyn qualifies in August 2019.... hardly a runner, surely?

If he doesn't run, we don't want him. Lazy players are just excess baggage.

SecretFly wrote:If he doesn't run, we don't want him.  Lazy players are just excess baggage.

Astute observation, Mr Fly. You could go places.

geoff999rugby wrote:Fly to be clear I do see Carbery as a very exciting prospect but he is not at the stage Jackson was before his enforced absents and I suspect he wont be for the WC.
He is 22 - very young for a 10, 2023 and 2027 are his WCs to shine not 2019.

I was not as confident about Carbery as many others on here but was so impressed by him when he came on against England. He may have only been on for short periods but in that time he showed excellent maturity and experience. That was the biggest game of his career, to date, going for GS in England so he it would have been somewhat expected if nerves got to him but he performed brilliantly. 100% in my mind that he is the back up to Sexton going further, regardless of the outcome of what happens up north.

Sorry Fly re Payne - a miss read on my part
Eirebilly he came on when the game was one, yet to see him dictate a game from the start.
Also doesn't play 10 at Leinster.
I have no idea how you can put him in front of a fully functioning Jackson
Of course the whole thing will be mute if Jackson goes abroad

If Jackson does then to be brutally honest Ireland will go into the World Cup
one injury away from failure (as in no prospect of making SFs)

However important others are I would not say that of anyone else
Not even Murray