ERC Qualification a farce?

So I was looking at how the leagues are shaping up and noticed something odd about the 20th qualification spot for next years HC. Currently based on league standings (subject to final league positions) are:

1 Montpellier
2 Racing 92
3 Toulouse
4 Toulon
5 Pau
6 La Rochelle
7 Exeter
8 Saracens
9 Leicester
10 Wasps
11 Newcastle
12 Sale Sharks
13 Leinster
14 Scarlets
15 Edinburgh
16 Glasgow
17 Munster
18 Blues
19 Ospreys / Ulster

Now the interesting thing here is that based on this representing the final standing of the leagues the fact 7 out of 8 of the teams in the Challenge & Champions Cup semi finals already qualify for the Champions Cup on league merit. Based on the below therefore if Gloucester do not reach the top 6 in the league they have in fact already qualified for next years Champions cup:

i) Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner

Now to me this is a bit of a farce because if Gloucester lose to Newcastle they will still go into the Champions Cup based on no other side matching the above criteria. Surely that cannot be right? I appreciate they want teams to take the challenge cup seriously and while both finalists could have valid arguments for qualifying based on merit, I don't see why semi finalists should qualify by default? Surely point v) should be above iv)?

As far as I'm concerned it will be a total farce if Gloucester qualify this way. Anyone else think this is valid or feel free to let me know if you have a different opinion.

Welshmushroom wrote:So I was looking at how the leagues are shaping up and noticed something odd about the 20th qualification spot for next years HC.  Currently based on league standings (subject to final league positions) are:

1 Montpellier
2 Racing 92
3 Toulouse
4 Toulon
5 Pau
6 La Rochelle
7 Exeter
8 Saracens
9 Leicester
10 Wasps
11 Newcastle
12 Sale Sharks
13 Leinster
14 Scarlets
15 Edinburgh
16 Glasgow
17 Munster
18 Blues
19 Ospreys / Ulster

Now the interesting thing here is that based on this representing the final standing of the leagues the fact 7 out of 8 of the teams in the Challenge & Champions Cup semi finals already qualify for the Champions Cup on league merit.  Based on the below therefore if Gloucester do not reach the top 6 in the league they have in fact already qualified for next years Champions cup:

i) Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner

Now to me this is a bit of a farce because if Gloucester lose to Newcastle they will still go into the Champions Cup based on no other side matching the above criteria.  Surely that cannot be right?  I appreciate they want teams to take the challenge cup seriously and while both finalists could have valid arguments for qualifying based on merit, I don't see why semi finalists should qualify by default?  Surely point v) should be above iv)?

As far as I'm concerned it will be a total farce if Gloucester qualify this way. Anyone else think this is valid or feel free to let me know if you have a different opinion.

I think this is valid. Based on current standings as you said who would be the Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner? If Clermont win, it would be Lyon. If Scarlets, Leinster or Munster win the composite league table would look like this currently.

Glasgow 70
Leinster 69
Scarlets 65
Munster 63
Edinburgh 59
Cheetahs 57
Ulster 51
Benetton 50
Cardiff 48
Ospreys 40
Connacht 34
Zebre 22
Dragons 18
Kings 11

In that instance, if Ulster were to lose the playoff match to Ospreys, they’d qualify anyway. If Ospreys lost, then Benetton would qualify.

Ridiculous set of eliminators!

The first two are fine because it means winners can qualify who otherwise wouldn't, but the rest are daft as teams could qualify having only won five games all season?
There should simply be a two stage playoff. Firstly between the two best placed teams from the leagues that didn't have the Cup winner and the winner of that should face the best placed unqualified team from the league that had the Cup winner.

Pot, I think Trevino qualify automatically anyway don’t they?

maestegmafia wrote:Pot, I think Trevino qualify automatically anyway don’t they?

Benetton - as they are called now - and Zebre don’t have automatic qualification any more. PRO14 changed it last year to Top 7 from this season onwards.

Pot Hale wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:So I was looking at how the leagues are shaping up and noticed something odd about the 20th qualification spot for next years HC.  Currently based on league standings (subject to final league positions) are:

1 Montpellier
2 Racing 92
3 Toulouse
4 Toulon
5 Pau
6 La Rochelle
7 Exeter
8 Saracens
9 Leicester
10 Wasps
11 Newcastle
12 Sale Sharks
13 Leinster
14 Scarlets
15 Edinburgh
16 Glasgow
17 Munster
18 Blues
19 Ospreys / Ulster

Now the interesting thing here is that based on this representing the final standing of the leagues the fact 7 out of 8 of the teams in the Challenge & Champions Cup semi finals already qualify for the Champions Cup on league merit.  Based on the below therefore if Gloucester do not reach the top 6 in the league they have in fact already qualified for next years Champions cup:

i) Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner

Now to me this is a bit of a farce because if Gloucester lose to Newcastle they will still go into the Champions Cup based on no other side matching the above criteria.  Surely that cannot be right?  I appreciate they want teams to take the challenge cup seriously and while both finalists could have valid arguments for qualifying based on merit, I don't see why semi finalists should qualify by default?  Surely point v) should be above iv)?

As far as I'm concerned it will be a total farce if Gloucester qualify this way. Anyone else think this is valid or feel free to let me know if you have a different opinion.

I think this is valid.   Based on current standings as you said who would be the Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner?   If Clermont win, it would be Lyon.  If Scarlets, Leinster or Munster win the composite league table would look like this currently.

Glasgow 70
Leinster 69
Scarlets 65
Munster 63
Edinburgh 59
Cheetahs 57
Ulster 51
Benetton 50
Cardiff 48
Ospreys 40
Connacht 34
Zebre 22
Dragons 18
Kings 11

In that instance, if Ulster were to lose the playoff match to Ospreys, they’d qualify anyway.  If Ospreys lost, then Benetton would qualify.  

Also seems a bit weird as, as things stand, the teams in bold are in the RCC and the italics are playing off for it. SO if the Ospreys win the playoff, both them and the Blues will be in the RCC at the cost of two teams who are better than them over the course of the season.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:So I was looking at how the leagues are shaping up and noticed something odd about the 20th qualification spot for next years HC.  Currently based on league standings (subject to final league positions) are:

1 Montpellier
2 Racing 92
3 Toulouse
4 Toulon
5 Pau
6 La Rochelle
7 Exeter
8 Saracens
9 Leicester
10 Wasps
11 Newcastle
12 Sale Sharks
13 Leinster
14 Scarlets
15 Edinburgh
16 Glasgow
17 Munster
18 Blues
19 Ospreys / Ulster

Now the interesting thing here is that based on this representing the final standing of the leagues the fact 7 out of 8 of the teams in the Challenge & Champions Cup semi finals already qualify for the Champions Cup on league merit.  Based on the below therefore if Gloucester do not reach the top 6 in the league they have in fact already qualified for next years Champions cup:

i) Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner

Now to me this is a bit of a farce because if Gloucester lose to Newcastle they will still go into the Champions Cup based on no other side matching the above criteria.  Surely that cannot be right?  I appreciate they want teams to take the challenge cup seriously and while both finalists could have valid arguments for qualifying based on merit, I don't see why semi finalists should qualify by default?  Surely point v) should be above iv)?

As far as I'm concerned it will be a total farce if Gloucester qualify this way. Anyone else think this is valid or feel free to let me know if you have a different opinion.

I think this is valid.   Based on current standings as you said who would be the Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner?   If Clermont win, it would be Lyon.  If Scarlets, Leinster or Munster win the composite league table would look like this currently.

Glasgow 70
Leinster 69
Scarlets 65
Munster 63
Edinburgh 59
Cheetahs 57
Ulster 51
Benetton 50
Cardiff 48
Ospreys 40
Connacht 34
Zebre 22
Dragons 18
Kings 11

In that instance, if Ulster were to lose the playoff match to Ospreys, they’d qualify anyway.  If Ospreys lost, then Benetton would qualify.  

Also seems a bit weird as, as things stand, the teams in bold are in the RCC and the italics are playing off for it.  SO if the Ospreys win the playoff, both them and the Blues will be in the RCC at the cost of two teams who are better than them over the course of the season.

Yep. Always a possible outcome when you have two conferences and when one of them has an easy beat like Kings in it. That should change next season though.
Benetton have matched their best season from 2012/13 with 10 wins already. And they play Zebre in their final derby match. Overall a good season for them. I’d love if they got a quarterfinal or Euro playoff spot.

Pot - to be honest it is more of an issue due to the two SA sides not being in contention for RCC spots than down to the Kings/Dragons/Zebre being poor. If the Cheetahs were able to qualify then then it would be (as it stands) Blues and Ulster in the playoffs, which would seem fairer (4th v 4th, not 4th v 5th). Personally I think I'd have it as 'IF a SA team reaches the playoff the top 3 elegible sides from that conference, and the top 4 sides for the other conference go into the RCC with no playoff'. (it nice to be able to say this, when I can't be accused of whinging becasue my team may lose out).