Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Part 2

We're desperately short of possession ........

Like the cut of that fella Hume - looks lively. And McPhillips is coming along nicely.

Bit stupid by Davis - cheap shot and YC.

Rubbing eyes at performance of Treadwell and Nagle.

Redman wrote:The subtext of that selection is "we don't trust our starters to definitely be beating Cardiff at home after 60 minutes so we've kept a few big guns on the bench just in case."

Either it makes sense to rest Best and Stockdale or play them to get ready for Scarlets next week.  

Turned out they called it right, we did need them off the bench.

Pot Hale wrote:Like the cut of that fella Hume - looks lively.  And McPhillips is coming along nicely.  

Yes and no. Guys like Hume and McPhillips show they have ability but 'coming along nicely' - don't think so.

Comparing them to the Leinster youngsters, Ulster look like a bunch of individuals who are giving it a lash. There is maybe not that big a gulf in the quality of player but there is a canyon of difference in the quality of the team. Every one drools over the amazing depth at Leinster (and now Ireland), but in reality it's far more to do with the coaching than the players. If James Hume and Johnny McPhillips were at Leinster would they be turning in the performances that Conor O'Brien and Ross Byrne did last night?

Seeing how Leinster make yards by hitting the line at speed with accurately times passes is a testament to their coaching as was Paddy Patterson on debut having the freedom to float a pass to O'Brien for a score. It's great that Ulster are getting players from Leinster now but it would be even better if messrs McFarland, Peel and Soper got a bit of their philospohy as well.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Like the cut of that fella Hume - looks lively.  And McPhillips is coming along nicely.  

Yes and no. Guys like Hume and McPhillips show they have ability but 'coming along nicely' - don't think so.

Comparing them to the Leinster youngsters, Ulster look like a bunch of individuals who are giving it a lash. There is maybe not that big a gulf in the quality of player but there is a canyon of difference in the quality of the team. Every one drools over the amazing depth at Leinster (and now Ireland), but in reality it's far more to do with the coaching than the players. If James Hume and Johnny McPhillips were at Leinster would they be turning in the performances that Conor O'Brien and Ross Byrne did last night?

Seeing how Leinster make yards by hitting the line at speed with accurately times passes is a testament to their coaching as was Paddy Patterson on debut having the freedom to float a pass to O'Brien for a score. It's great that Ulster are getting players from Leinster now but it would be even better if messrs McFarland, Peel and Soper got a bit of their philospohy as well.

Right then. That’s me put in me box.

Not at all Pot, Aukster is just pointing out how well drilled Leinster are. To hammer Dragons with the team you put out ........ wow. And not denigrate any of Leinster's youngsters but that score line isn't just all down to their talent.

As for Hume and McPhillips. Hume is showing a lot more form than he did for the U20s recently. Still, when's the last time we rolled out a youngster and they didn't do well?

McPhillips I'd qualify a bit .... not that he's not done well, but he looked this good last season. "Coming alone nicely" would suggest we've brought him on. We're haven't. We've steadfastly refused to play him unless absolutely necessary.

The difference between Ulster and Leinster is that the youngsters are coming in more polished at Leinster, they are playing school rugby at a high standard, playing club rugby at a high standard and come into the Leinster setup loaded with internationals

Pot Hale wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Like the cut of that fella Hume - looks lively.  And McPhillips is coming along nicely.  

Yes and no. Guys like Hume and McPhillips show they have ability but 'coming along nicely' - don't think so.

Comparing them to the Leinster youngsters, Ulster look like a bunch of individuals who are giving it a lash. There is maybe not that big a gulf in the quality of player but there is a canyon of difference in the quality of the team. Every one drools over the amazing depth at Leinster (and now Ireland), but in reality it's far more to do with the coaching than the players. If James Hume and Johnny McPhillips were at Leinster would they be turning in the performances that Conor O'Brien and Ross Byrne did last night?

Seeing how Leinster make yards by hitting the line at speed with accurately times passes is a testament to their coaching as was Paddy Patterson on debut having the freedom to float a pass to O'Brien for a score. It's great that Ulster are getting players from Leinster now but it would be even better if messrs McFarland, Peel and Soper got a bit of their philospohy as well.

Right then.   That’s me put in me box.  

Shouldn't that be keg Poth?

marty2086 wrote:The difference between Ulster and Leinster is that the youngsters are coming in more polished at Leinster, they are playing school rugby at a high standard, playing club rugby at a high standard and come into the Leinster setup loaded with internationals

Don't disagree with that but there is a marked difference in how the two provinces approach the game. How many times do we see Cooney passing to static players or looking both sides to see if anyone is ready to receive?

Ulster have improved some elements from the start of the season. Restarts are better, the lineout is slowly settling, scrum pretty solid, and some guys are putting their hands up. Moore settling in well, O'Sullivan getting better every game, Treadwell growing and Coetzee living up to the hype. Nagle looks like a good loan deal, but it would be interesting to know what guys like him and Jordi think of the respective coaching.

Whilst it’s obviously important, I think we on here bang on about game time a bit much when it comes to youngsters. As if, the only thing stopping progression is game time. They also need to be coached well and motivated by others in the camp.

There’s plenty of Ulster players with tonnes of game time and not the progression you would have hoped for at this stage.

Redman wrote:Still, when's the last time we rolled out a youngster and they didn't do well?

Do these qualify - Lorcan Dow, Frankie Taggart, Conor Joyce, James McKinney, Conor Gaston, Stephen Mulholland, Ali Birch, Blane McIlroy, Michael Heaney, John Burns, Chris Cochrane, John Donnan, Jamie Smith...

The Great Aukster wrote:

Redman wrote:Still, when's the last time we rolled out a youngster and they didn't do well?

Do these qualify - Lorcan Dow, Frankie Taggart, Conor Joyce, James McKinney, Conor Gaston, Stephen Mulholland, Ali Birch, Blane McIlroy, Michael Heaney, John Burns, Chris Cochrane, John Donnan, Jamie Smith...

Did Joyce, Taggart or Donnan play for the senior team?

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:The difference between Ulster and Leinster is that the youngsters are coming in more polished at Leinster, they are playing school rugby at a high standard, playing club rugby at a high standard and come into the Leinster setup loaded with internationals

Don't disagree with that but there is a marked difference in how the two provinces approach the game. How many times do we see Cooney passing to static players or looking both sides to see if anyone is ready to receive?

Ulster have improved some elements from the start of the season. Restarts are better, the lineout is slowly settling, scrum pretty solid, and some guys are putting their hands up. Moore settling in well, O'Sullivan getting better every game, Treadwell growing and Coetzee living up to the hype. Nagle looks like a good loan deal, but it would be interesting to know what guys like him and Jordi think of the respective coaching.

Part of the problem is when Ulster bring their youngsters in, how many young players came in in past seasons against a Dragons or Zebre when the front line players were rested/unavailable? Now we have them all coming in together?

Some moaning by the Welsh, well I never...

Didn't see the game, does he have a point?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46416057

the-goon wrote:Some moaning by the Welsh, well I never...

Didn't see the game, does he have a point?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46416057

He does and he doesn't, the ref was awful and don't think I've seen him ref a game and not thought that.

His complaint about the yellow card is pretty stupid, was a blatant shoulder charge to the back of a player at a ruck. The ref can't really be blamed for the McCloskey incident, looked a clear knock on and he blew before McCloskey infringed so it's irrelevant.

Have to check the Best turnover again but didn't see anything wrong on first viewing, did see Cardiff win a turnover though through Robinson I think where he was being held up by Nick Williams so wasn't supporting his own weight. There were also multiple occasions when Cardiff tacklers would loiter around the Ulster side of the ruck and delay support coming in, think they even got a turnover off it on one occasion, not to mention illegally pulling down mauls close to the line which went unpunished

If he mentioned how his team had benefitted from it too, he might be taken seriously, the fact he basically says we lost because of the ref makes him just seem bitter

Very dangerous to flag up decisions that went against his side and ignore those that went for them. Smacks of desperation?

It would be great if officiating could be 100% all teh time. But it aint ever going to be.

Need to be careful, because I was as stoked as anyone to beat the all-blacks -but the Stockdale try came from a lineout which came from a penalty we shouldn't have got. POM was not supporting his own weight. Both his elbows went straight to the ground when attempting the turnover.

Calls will never be 100%. And sometimes calls will appear to win or lose games. But chances are, over 80 minutes, calls are made poorly in equal measure for both sides.

Warwick and O'Connor unavailable for the weekend, we now have O'Sullivan for loosehead followed by ..........

McCall better be up to speed

Where's Tommy O'Hagan?

The Great Aukster wrote:Where's Tommy O'Hagan?

Schalk van Der Merwes basement?

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Where's Tommy O'Hagan?

Schalk van Der Merwes basement?

To make the sausages most likely

O'Hagan's not registered is he? McCall has played a couple of games in the AIL I'm told so may be a bencher option even if not up to full running speed.

Seems Tommy O'Hagan might finally be freed

https://twitter.com/ulsterrugby/status/1070005973069238272?s=21&fbclid=IwAR1dgqJkRJvOXeBIyJsn1UlOyTfpt15e8yDuEYAbRhXfGFa9i3bSl3ov_GA

So Warwick and O’Connor our injured. Warwick injury sounds serious enough. Presume it’ll be Treadwell and Henderson in the row with Nagle (is he registered?) on the bench. Literally no idea what we we’re doing at loosehead.

Redman wrote:So Warwick and O’Connor our injured. Warwick injury sounds serious enough. Presume it’ll be Treadwell and Henderson in the row with Nagle (is he registered?) on the bench. Literally no idea what we we’re doing at loosehead.

Nagle isn't registered but I noticed Munster have registered 2 extra players so I assume we'll be allowed to do the same and get him onboard as well as Tommy O'Hagan.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Redman wrote:So Warwick and O’Connor our injured. Warwick injury sounds serious enough. Presume it’ll be Treadwell and Henderson in the row with Nagle (is he registered?) on the bench. Literally no idea what we we’re doing at loosehead.

Nagle isn't registered but I noticed Munster have registered 2 extra players so I assume we'll be allowed to do the same and get him onboard as well as Tommy O'Hagan.

If we haven't already then its too late for Friday, deadline was yesterday. Maybe there's a link between that and vDMs release

marty2086 wrote:

Have to check the Best turnover again but didn't see anything wrong on first viewing

Deliciously hilarious.

The Great Aukster wrote:Very dangerous to flag up decisions that went against his side and ignore those that went for them. Smacks of desperation?

Did the referee apologise at the end of the game to:

a) Ulster
b) Cardiff Blues
c) Both

Oh dear, who left the door open?

Guilty! To be fair he was stalking me on Twitter, nice to see my comment on his fragile ego was wide of the mark

marty2086 wrote:Guilty! To be fair he was stalking me on Twitter, nice to see my comment on his fragile ego was wide of the mark

You were ridiculed and embarrassed on Twitter yesterday, caught with your pants down making up nonsense and laughed at for being unable to distinguish fact from opinion.

p.s. Berry apologised for his performance to Cardiff Blues.
p.p.s. If anybody thinks that Best was ever even close to being legal when Berry awarded him the penalty - your rugby knowledge is next to zero.

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Redman wrote:Still, when's the last time we rolled out a youngster and they didn't do well?

Do these qualify - Lorcan Dow, Frankie Taggart, Conor Joyce, James McKinney, Conor Gaston, Stephen Mulholland, Ali Birch, Blane McIlroy, Michael Heaney, John Burns, Chris Cochrane, John Donnan, Jamie Smith...

Did Joyce, Taggart or Donnan play for the senior team?

Joyce definitely, Taggart cameo, Donnan no - maybe throw in David McIlwaine instead?

PhilBB wrote:If anybody thinks that Best was ever even close to being legal when Berry awarded him the penalty - your rugby knowledge is next to zero.

Martyn Williams (226 Blues caps) thought it was 50-50, but then what would he know?

The Great Aukster wrote:

PhilBB wrote:If anybody thinks that Best was ever even close to being legal when Berry awarded him the penalty - your rugby knowledge is next to zero.

Martyn Williams (226 Blues caps) thought it was 50-50, but then what would he know?

Stuart Berry, SARU, Pro14 and World Rugby approved referee thought it was legal too

In other news

Ian Nagle has picked up a knock and as such not yet been registered by Ulster for Europe. Billy Burns and Will Addison good to go, as is Kyle McCall.

The Great Aukster wrote:

PhilBB wrote:If anybody thinks that Best was ever even close to being legal when Berry awarded him the penalty - your rugby knowledge is next to zero.

Martyn Williams (226 Blues caps) thought it was 50-50, but then what would he know?

Williams audibly laughed at the decision in commentary and said "Oooh, that's, err...........one of those decisions you get when you're at home".

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

PhilBB wrote:If anybody thinks that Best was ever even close to being legal when Berry awarded him the penalty - your rugby knowledge is next to zero.

Martyn Williams (226 Blues caps) thought it was 50-50, but then what would he know?

Williams audibly laughed at the decision in commentary and said "Oooh, that's, err...........one of those decisions you get when you're at home".

Exactly - implying you wouldn't get it playing away therefore a 50-50 decision.

The Great Aukster wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

PhilBB wrote:If anybody thinks that Best was ever even close to being legal when Berry awarded him the penalty - your rugby knowledge is next to zero.

Martyn Williams (226 Blues caps) thought it was 50-50, but then what would he know?

Williams audibly laughed at the decision in commentary and said "Oooh, that's, err...........one of those decisions you get when you're at home".

Exactly - implying you wouldn't get it playing away therefore a 50-50 decision.

Yes. That's the accurate definition of a 50/50 decision.

Ulster team to play Scarlets, Heineken Champions Cup, Friday 7th December, Parc y Scarlets (7.45pm):
(15-9): L Ludik; H Speight, W Addison, S McCloskey, J Stockdale; B Burns, J Cooney;
(1-8): E O’Sullivan, R Best (captain), M Moore, I Henderson, K Treadwell, S Reidy, J Murphy, M Coetzee;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, K McCall, T O’Toole, M Rea, N Timoney, D Shanahan, J McPhillips, D Cave.

About as close as Ulster have been to first XV all season

The Great Aukster wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

PhilBB wrote:If anybody thinks that Best was ever even close to being legal when Berry awarded him the penalty - your rugby knowledge is next to zero.

Martyn Williams (226 Blues caps) thought it was 50-50, but then what would he know?

Williams audibly laughed at the decision in commentary and said "Oooh, that's, err...........one of those decisions you get when you're at home".

Exactly - implying you wouldn't get it playing away therefore a 50-50 decision.

Did Cardiff get one whereby Big Nick was being held up by a teammate, therefore not supporting his own weight? Meaning you do get those away too

marty2086 wrote:Ulster team to play Scarlets, Heineken Champions Cup, Friday 7th December, Parc y Scarlets (7.45pm):
(15-9): L Ludik; H Speight, W Addison, S McCloskey, J Stockdale; B Burns, J Cooney;
(1-8): E O’Sullivan, R Best (captain), M Moore, I Henderson, K Treadwell, S Reidy, J Murphy, M Coetzee;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, K McCall, T O’Toole, M Rea, N Timoney, D Shanahan, J McPhillips, D Cave.

About as close as Ulster have been to first XV all season

It's the beginnings of what could becomes a very tight group of players and the spine of a decent side. We need a much better outhalf than we can currently field so that'll be one for after the RWC. I know that sounds uncharacteristically optimistic from me but I'll counter it with the fact that I believe we are doomed to a big loss at Park y Empty. If we could keep it within 15 points and maybe, just maybe sneak a try BP then I'd be very happy. I've been known to get these things very wrong though

Hopefully soon we will see Speight depart, Ludik move to wing, Addison to full back and Luke Marshall partnering McCloskey. Gilroy and Lowry on bench with Shanners?

On that note, where do you all point the blame at Gilroys lack of development? I’m pretty certain most of us would take Seymour over Gilroy in a heartbeat.
Was Seymour seen as the greater prospect? Or has he just benefited in developing at a better club with better coaching?

When Tenesee Tam was at Ulster he had a similar reputation for entitlement as Jamie Smith and James McKinney. He wasn't able to back that up with his performances and wasn't prepared to work and wait to get ahead of Bowe, Trimble and Danielli. His attitude meant he wouldn't have developed into the player he is now if he had stayed, nor would he have achieved Test and Lions honours.

Fair play. Would you agree Gilroy's development has stagnated or even gone backwards in recent years? Am I being too harsh? For sure would love to see his dancing feet and pirouettes actually create more than it has done of late.
He does seem a little ineffective now when compared to the attacking ability of Addison and Stockdale.

Would you say Gilroys game has evolved more than stagnated? He's a better defender than he was but has that cost him in other areas? He has also bulked up a bit so that will affect the body too

Yea maybe that’s it. I still always live in hope that we will see magic from him. But i do feel the club needs to figure out how to get the best out of him again.

Last season I for sure had Ludik ahead of him on the wing. Now Trimble and Bowe gone, Speight soon to be. Will he even be starting after then?

Good team but I'd have started Lowry at 15 and went for Ludik on the bench instead of Cave. Timoney and Rea on the bench as well is a strange one. Nagle was impressive in his last outing, he actually looks bigger than Treadwell which is a surprise given he's only 6"5.

Overall though I'm fairly confident about this one and not unhappy about how Ulster are developing this season even though it is a work in progress.

Re: Gilroy, he's still injured no?

I don't think he's developed too much - he's a very good finisher and threat at this level and still has plenty to offer but his lack of all round game and work rate probably rules him out of higher honors or a nailed on spot when everyone is fit.

I don't want to talk to soon, but....... Were playing very well at the moment