Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Part 2

The draw really couldn't have been much better for Ulster in Pool 4. Scarlets with injuries and coming to terms with departures, Leicester with unsettled coaching, Prem problems and out before the Welford Road trip, Racing with no expectations away and already through before Belfast with the Scarlets at home up their sleeve.

Despite the kudos of qualifying for the last 8, the much needed money, experience and feel good factor for the players, is it a good thing for Ulster to be distracted by this competition when they've barely a squad to compete in the Pro14?

Another very good performance and maybe some things are starting to click under McFarland.

I have to eat my word on Billy Burns, he's really mixed up his game in the last few weeks and looks a different player.

The Irish contingent have all returned with a spring in their step, particularly Best and Henderson who had sluggish starts to the season.

Aside from Burns, Murphy and Moore are starting to have an impact. Marcel is like a new signing in a balanced looking back row.

Unfortunately Speight isn't staying because he's be excellent as well after initially looking like a dud signing. Stockdale looks like the best finisher in the game right now on the other wing.

Hopefully we can keep momentum over the xmas period and if we can maintain our current form there is no reason we can't win both remaining pool games.

I agree with you Rodders. I'm not burns biggest fan and I still think mcphillips has a lot to offer but burns has been playing well the last few games.
When Speight goes, who's next in line? Is Gilroy injured?

I believe Gilroy is injured.

Totally forgot to mention Addison, he is looking like the signing of the season if he stays fit.

He's the kind of player who looks like he's going to create something every time he touches the ball.

rodders wrote:I believe Gilroy is injured.

Totally forgot to mention Addison, he is looking like the signing of the season if he stays fit.

He's the kind of player who looks like he's going to create something every time he touches the ball.

Addison looks great going forward.  I do wonder if he will suffer from being Mr Utility - at club and test level.
Presumably McFarland has had a few chats from the national coaching group about giving him time in midfield and back three.  

Speight is a loss although he only seemed to turn it on in the last few weeks - was he hoping to get an extension?  

Ulster are doing better than expected this season, and if McFarland, Peel and Payne can bring through a few more youngsters like Hume, McPhillips, Lowry, Shanahan, O’Sullivan, and the Curtis bros they’ll be doing well for the future.   McBurney showed a lot of promise in the U20s but hasn’t shown much since then - he needs to really step up to become the No 2 to Herring when Best leaves.  

Still - more positive days ahead - good to see.

Ludik on the wing is definitely next in line after Speight leaves. Arguably even if Gilroy returns to fitness. I want Gilroy to re-find his electric form though.

Anyone know how Marshall's rehabilitation is going??

Louis' wholeheartedness is great every time he plays, but he offers little in attack. This season was supposed to be about development and if Gilroy is injured why not bring in Angus Kernohan as he showed some real potential in his outings so far.

Ah FFS.... just heard Hendy is out for 10-12 weeks

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/injury-shock-for-ulster-as-iain-henderson-ruled-out-for-up-to-12-weeks-37633559.html

Not good news. So O’Connor, Treadwell and Nagle will have to stand up.

And Toner, Ryan, Beirne and Roux for the Six Nations - or could Schmidt look at Dillane again?

Surely they should let us sign a medical joker. With the prospect of a quarter final and Speight going surely they must have some cash?

So is Alex Thompson another iffy signing who isn't going to be used? What is the point in having a squad player when a senior gets injured if they're ignored and a joker brought in?

Pot Hale wrote:McBurney showed a lot of promise in the U20s but hasn’t shown much since then - he needs to really step up to become the No 2 to Herring when Best leaves.  

McBurneys played well when he has come in, he's probably unlucky not to be ahead of Herring at the moment

The Great Aukster wrote:So is Alex Thompson another iffy signing who isn't going to be used? What is the point in having a squad player when a senior gets injured if they're ignored and a joker brought in?

Some players are there to fill spots for the A team it seems

Pot Hale wrote:Not good news.   So O’Connor, Treadwell and Nagle will have to stand up.

And Toner, Ryan, Beirne and Roux for the Six Nations - or could Schmidt look at Dillane again?

Yes and Yes.

Very unfortunate for Henderson, he's been in great form. Would love to see Fardy come North given he's not making the European games for Leinster.

There are plenty of goo locks just finished the Japanese seaon that may be good medical jokers players like Tom Franklin played for Māori All Blacks, Joe Wheeler played for Māori All Blacks and plays backrow as well, Richard Arnold at 6' 10" should secure lineouts and there are more.

Northern Ireland footy fans sing "We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland".

In regards to signing any decent injury cover we should be singing "We're not Munster we're Ulster".
I know it's a stretch to make those words fit with the tune but the sentiment's correct

I'd be surprised if we get anything other than a cast-off from one of the other provinces if anything at all.

How long ago was the thumb surgery planned? I thought the article made it sound like it was a recurring injury that needed addressed at some point, and he waited till after the AIs and Euro matches. If it's true that they knew it was coming, it could be that Nagle is the IRFU's 'help' in advance.

Wouldn't hold my breath for any more!

clivemcl wrote:How long ago was the thumb surgery planned? I thought the article made it sound like it was a recurring injury that needed addressed at some point, and he waited till after the AIs and Euro matches. If it's true that they knew it was coming, it could be that Nagle is the IRFU's 'help' in advance.

Wouldn't hold my breath for any more!

Sustained it in the first Scarlets game and played through, Matty Rea has done his thumb too. After Cave doing the same Im starting to worry theres epidemic

Looks like Dalton will be brought up to cover this weekend, hopefully he steps up

Ulster team to play Munster, Guinness PRO14, Friday 21st December, Kingspan Stadium (7.35pm):
(15-9): L Ludik; H Speight, W Addison, S McCloskey, R Baloucoune; B Burns, J Cooney;
(1-8): E O’Sullivan, R Herring (captain), M Moore, I Nagle, K Treadwell, S Reidy, J Murphy, M Coetzee;
Replacements (16-23): R Best, K McCall, R Kane, C Ross, N Timoney, D Shanahan, J McPhillips, J Hume.

Why is Stockdale out? Injured? I saw he left early against Scarlets as well. Cause for concern?

the-goon wrote:Why is Stockdale out? Injured? I saw he left early against Scarlets as well. Cause for concern?

Believe McFarland said after it was to save minutes, Im not sure when Speight heads back to Brumbies so could be saving Stockdale for Connacht or Leinster and trying to get Baloucoune up to match sharpness too given others are out injured

Rob Lyttle, Alex Thompson and Matt Dalton all played last weekend.

Ulster are being talked up for this game, but with Kleyn (6'8") and Darren O'Shea (6'9") lining out with the option of Wycherley and Coombes on the bench, the home team could get obliterated from the sidelines. Ulster don't even have lock cover on the bench so Treadwell and Nagle will have to play the full 80. Given the paucity of resources in the second row and the busyness of the period, is this really the best strategy?

Lyttle is the answer at lock

marty2086 wrote:Lyttle is the answer at lock

He could be thrown fairly high at lineout time so it'd be an option

The Great Aukster wrote:Rob Lyttle, Alex Thompson and Matt Dalton all played last weekend.

Ulster are being talked up for this game, but with Kleyn (6'8") and Darren O'Shea (6'9") lining out with the option of Wycherley and Coombes on the bench, the home team could get obliterated from the sidelines. Ulster don't even have lock cover on the bench so Treadwell and Nagle will have to play the full 80. Given the paucity of resources in the second row and the busyness of the period, is this really the best strategy?

Wouldn’t worry too much Munsters inability to do anything with the ball (i.e pass the ball) will get you through. That and JJ pretending to be a rugby player. The only hope we have is that the Ulster players will be laughing so much we could sneak it. The most skilful Munsterman on the pitch is playing in white

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rob Lyttle, Alex Thompson and Matt Dalton all played last weekend.

Ulster are being talked up for this game, but with Kleyn (6'8") and Darren O'Shea (6'9") lining out with the option of Wycherley and Coombes on the bench, the home team could get obliterated from the sidelines. Ulster don't even have lock cover on the bench so Treadwell and Nagle will have to play the full 80. Given the paucity of resources in the second row and the busyness of the period, is this really the best strategy?

Wouldn’t worry too much Munsters inability to do anything with the ball (i.e pass the ball) will get you through. That and JJ pretending to be a rugby player. The only hope we have is that the Ulster players will be laughing so much we could sneak it. The most skilful Munsterman on the pitch is playing in white

Ouch. Things have improved somewhat in second half but not by much. For Ulster that is.

Even young Munster circa 1989 had more skill than this bunch. I often wonder is Felix Jones backs coach or forwards?

Congrats Ulster - again.

Are yiz pinching yourselves yet?

Starting to really rate Payne as a defense coach and McFarland's stock has gone up massively in the last few weeks. We are doing well, a big win against Racing at home would be fantastic. There is always the question as to whether or not we want to try and compete on two fronts, right now I think we have to be trying to win every game.

Congrats

Ulster look like they could get 2nd. Seem to be improving.

Munster, well it was outside Munster so are we surprised.

Baloucoune was a lucky boy tonight, that probably should have been a red card

Nagle is proving to be a very good signing, great lineout option, decent ball carrier and has some niggle to him that Ulster need

Hume looked very good when he came on tonight, like a few others had to go off injured and hopefully nothing serious.

Thought Reidy was another who had a good game

Baloucoune should have been red carded and that would have cost Ulster the game. The officials made mistakes for both sides but that undoubtedly was the game defining moment.
Neither side had a half back who could run the game - really disappointed in Mathewson who I expected to standout but Cronin didn't fail by comparison. That was the game for Cooney to run but when he went off halfway through the first half, Shanahan's lack of a kicking game was embarrassingly exposed. Neither Burns nor Hanrahan looked to have any notion of a territorial game that would have been the perfect tactic.
I expected the Munster lineout under the tutelage of Flannery would have functioned a lot better. O'Byrne looked to be constantly looking for a row rather than concentrating on his primary function - maybe he is learning from Jerry after-all!

Didn't look at the landing of the player closely enough to say if he landed on shoulder or back.

I did look at Balacoune's run though, and the thing is, at the speed he runs, and the pitifully small jump Sweetnam made, it was really hard to avoid.
I mean, it's got to the point that you basically should just no longer even consider trying to smash a player, because you build your speed and lower your shoulder earlier than the opposition player shows any indication that he might jump.

I'm pretty sure I could freeze frame that and show Balacoune a few metres out with his shoulder already low ready for the hit, and at same time Sweetnam's feet would still be planted because he jumped so late.

Yea yea yea... letter of the law. I get it. I just don't like it.
No more big hits on catchers. That's the future of the game.

The TMO said Sweetnam landed on his "side" which gave the referee a get out from the red. That is the problem with the current Law - it doesn't make the game any safer. The outcome dictates whether in one instance it's a red card or on another occasion just a penalty, but the action itself is reckless.
Some fielders may purposely jump late to draw a penalty but they are taking a big chance on their future well-being. If World Rugby are serious about the safety of the game they should have zero tolerance of tackling in the air and apply a straight red to modify behaviour.

clivemcl wrote:Didn't look at the landing of the player closely enough to say if he landed on shoulder or back.

I did look at Balacoune's run though, and the thing is, at the speed he runs, and the pitifully small jump Sweetnam made, it was really hard to avoid.
I mean, it's got to the point that you basically should just no longer even consider trying to smash a player, because you build your speed and lower your shoulder earlier than the opposition player shows any indication that he might jump.

I'm pretty sure I could freeze frame that and show Balacoune a few metres out with his shoulder already low ready for the hit, and at same time Sweetnam's feet would still be planted because he jumped so late.

Yea yea yea... letter of the law. I get it. I just don't like it.
No more big hits on catchers. That's the future of the game.

He was nearly up right and Sweetnam got plenty of height to his jump, it was just an act of stupidity. Big hits are possible, Speight throws in the odd one from time to time. Hopefully its just youthful exuberance from him

Ulster v Connacht

15. Louis Ludik
14. Henry Speight
13. Will Addison
12. Darren Cave
11. Angus Kernohan
10. Johnny McPhillips
9. John Cooney

1. Eric O’Sullivan
2. Rob Herring (captain)
3. Marty Moore
4. Ian Nagle
5. Kieran Treadwell
6. Nick Timoney
7. Jordi Murphy
8. Marcell Coetzee

Replacements

16. Adam McBurney
17. Tommy O’Hagan
18. Ross Kane
19. Clive Ross
20. Greg Jones
21. David Shanahan
22. Peter Nelson
23. Stuart McCloskey


Still no Stockdale, getting extra rest or injured?


Connacht XV to face Ulster

15. Darragh Leader
14. Cian Kelleher
13. Tom Farrell
12. Bundee Aki
11. Kyle Godwin
10. Jack Carty
9. Caolin Blade

1. Denis Buckley
2. Shane Delahunt
3. Conor Carey
4. Gavin Thornbury
5. Quinn Roux
6. Sean O’Brien
7. Colby Fainga’a
8. Jarrad Butler (captain)

Replacements

16. Dave Heffernan
17.Peter McCabe
18. Dominic Robertson McCoy
19. Ultan Dillane
20. Paul Boyle
21. James Mitchell
22, David Horwitz
23. Stephen Fitzgerald


Both times going all in, this will be close. Fancy Connacht to just shade it though.

I know I no longer, regularly,  post here but I thought some might be interested in some updates

On a general point David Dobbin has come in and been sorting out an unholy messed left by Logan.
I wouldn't say skeletons in the cupboard but definitely a mismanaged shambles, with a lot of money wasted.
The players you have seen in leave have, in large part, been getting rid of players who were not, and were not going to,
contribute anything to Ulster rugby so why keep them on the books?
Same happening off the field.
There are more players to go - will cover in the next post.
An honourable exception is Henry - who whilst accepting he had to go will, officially, go this week and with full support and tangible thanks
There was criticism of Ulster getting McFarland and having to wait.
The delay has provided worthwhile - the recruitment of him, plus Payne, plus Soper means we have, by some distance, the best coaching ticket we have ever had in the professional era.
It has taken some time but the benefits of top coaching, especially in the forwards and in the defence is starting to show.
The Cardiff game was brutal, the hardest physically this year, but we came through it and have since gone up a level in performance and belief.
Lot of battered bodies at the moment but the intent is get a win today and send the kids and a handful of old hands to Dublin, so all key players well rested for Racing.

Guys we have got our team back after 3 years of dross

Will post about player movements next

Looking at possible, probably and certain player changes in the summer.
Some of this is fact, some is rumour and some is me looking at Dan's tea leaves !

Players I believe will be leaving - Owens, Busby, Ross, Montgomery, Thompson (has come back from his AIB year and just isn't cutting it)
Players who could leave - Nelson, Herbst (needs to deliver soon), Cave (probably will be offered a one year contract), Lyttle (we are not going to subsides his terrible injury record for ever), Coetzee (as I say the financial cupboard is bare, he will have to take a pay cut, would not surprise me if he does)
Retiring - Best
Complete mystery - Gilroy

Player I think will be given promotions from Development to full contracts - Timoney, O'Toole, A. Curtis, Matty Rea, Shanahan
Possible/probably promotions from Academy to Development - O'Sullivan (for only one year with a guaranteed further upgrade the following year to a full contract), Marcus Rea, Hall (provided no long term injury issues), Zack McCall,  Baloucoune, Lowry (same arrangement as O'Sullivan), Hume (could also go the O'Sullivan route),maybe Moore

Possible returnee to Academy - Cooper
Guaranteed to be joining the Academy (and playing in the 1st XV at some point) - Sexton

They are my assessments there could be others

As to NIQ - firstly seen some talk of a 10, or of a backthree player - not a chance in hell of either, any NIQs will be forwards
We were targeting a LH but O'Sullivan has led to a rethink and if O'Hagan comes good then it will not be happening.
Could be an IQ one though - we have put out feelers for Dooley, Bryne and Buckley but nothing back as far as I know
The focus will be at Lock - we like the look of Nagle and he likes the look of us so very good chance he will sign on but even them we are seriously short so a Lock remains the most likely signing. McFarland things Dalton has what it takes but he needs to get rid of the rough edges first.
As to backrow - Dublin pushing hard to get players to move around provinces - trying to get Deegan to join us, resisting though.
Happy playing for Leinster 3rds than for us  - go figure, with Doris coming through he will get virtually no game time.
Think Jordi, Marty and John are on a mission to change his mind.

The official line form Dublin is 3 NIQ max and 1 Project. In practise I expect it to be less
A Project 9 is not inconceivable

Welcome back geoff

On Cave, heard him being interviewed a few weeks back, basically said negotiations on a new contract were already underway. Until the thumb injury he had been going well so would make sense

Where does McCall Jr fall in the pecking order? Will he be given a contract to give us another body with Rory going or do Ulster think he can kick on?

The basic belief is you need 4 players for each front row position
McCall will replace Rory in that regard.
How far he goes is up to him - the belief next year is Herring and McBurney will dominate.
McBurney is seen as the real deal - I agree

Pretty certain Darren will sign but from now on in it will be a succession of 1 year contracts
On balance I think Herbst will get a similar offer

Nice to see you back Geoff. As always it's nice to hear a few of the updates on the squad that nobody else can give us.
There's a definite large helping of belief with this side and tonight, even after what Connacht did to us at Ravespan, there's the belief that we can do the job on their turf. I think it'll be a hell of a game.

"Guys we have got our team back after 3 years of dross "
This is music to my ears.....or as I'm reading this, music to my eyes.

geoff999rugby wrote:The basic belief is you need 4 players for each front row position
McCall will replace Rory in that regard.
How far he goes is up to him - the belief next year is Herring and McBurney will dominate.
McBurney is seen as the real deal - I agree

I agree on McBurney, think he should have made his debut earlier than he did. Think Andrew is a good player too and unlucky not to get more starts

geoff999rugby wrote:Pretty certain Darren will sign but from now on in it will be a succession of 1 year contracts
On balance I think Herbst will get a similar offer

Pretty much said it would only be a year but believes he has a few more left in him, think he mentioned that players in their 30s now would only be getting a year so that would be Herbst. Even if he wasnt with the injuries he picks up it would make sense, he's not a a bad player just can never get a run of games

Geoff, great to read your posts. Inside info and insight is well worth logging in for.

geoff999rugby wrote:Looking at possible, probably and certain player changes in the summer.
Some of this is fact, some is rumour and some is me looking at Dan's tea leaves !

Players I believe will be leaving - Owens, Busby, Ross, Montgomery, Thompson (has come back from his AIB year and just isn't cutting it)
Players who could leave - Nelson, Herbst (needs to deliver soon), Cave (probably will be offered a one year contract), Lyttle (we are not going to subsides his terrible injury record for ever), Coetzee (as I say the financial cupboard is bare, he will have to take a pay cut, would not surprise me if he does)
Retiring - Best
Complete mystery - Gilroy

Player I think will be given promotions from Development to full contracts - Timoney, O'Toole, A. Curtis, Matty Rea, Shanahan
Possible/probably promotions from Academy to Development - O'Sullivan (for only one year with a guaranteed further upgrade the following year to a full contract), Marcus Rea, Hall (provided no long term injury issues), Zack McCall,  Baloucoune, Lowry (same arrangement as O'Sullivan), Hume (could also go the O'Sullivan route),maybe Moore

Possible returnee to Academy - Cooper
Guaranteed to be joining the Academy (and playing in the 1st XV at some point) - Sexton

They are my assessments there could be others

As to NIQ - firstly seen some talk of a 10, or of a backthree player - not a chance in hell of either, any NIQs will be forwards
We were targeting a LH but O'Sullivan has led to a rethink and if O'Hagan comes good then it will not be happening.
Could be an IQ one though - we have put out feelers for Dooley, Bryne and Buckley but nothing back as far as I know
The focus will be at Lock - we like the look of Nagle and he likes the look of us so very good chance he will sign on but even them we are seriously short so a Lock remains the most likely signing. McFarland things Dalton has what it takes but he needs to get rid of the rough edges first.
As to backrow - Dublin pushing hard to get players to move around provinces - trying to get Deegan to join us, resisting though.
Happy playing for Leinster 3rds than for us  - go figure, with Doris coming through he will get virtually no game time.
Think Jordi, Marty and John are on a mission to change his mind.

The official line form Dublin is 3 NIQ max and 1 Project. In practise I expect it to be less
A Project 9 is not inconceivable

Great inside info, Geoff. Good to see you back posting.

When you say 3 NIQ and 1 project, do you mean 3 uncapped foreign players and therefore IRFU are saying no hiring of NIE players i.e. foreign capped players? And 1 project means one uncapped foreign player who could become qualified after five years residency?

It's odd how Thompson was one of the shoe-ins in the U20s and then didn't get a sniff at Ulster. So he went away to shine at Terenure and comes back to Ulster but looks 5h1te again. Why did they resign him when they already knew he couldn't cut it? If they thought he had enough to re-sign him why haven't the coaches been able to find it?
It must be totally de-motivating that Alex can't even get a bench spot to cover lock ahead of a 6'3" flanker ( who has never 'cut it').

By 3 NIQ I am saying 3 players who are not and never will be qualified to play for Ireland and yes Project is someone who will have to go through 5 year of Residency.
In practise Cunningham made clear this means a promising youngster they would be prepared to take a punt on.

On Thompson you sometimes get players who look really good at one level but just cant cut it at the next level.
All the reports from Terenure were promising but not worked out - it happens
In fact he may be on a 6 month contract and as such away in the New Year
Also seems Nagle has confirmed he would like a contract next year, I think we will be obliging

That result was not a surprise to me but a bit worrying.

Some of our players need a rest particularly forwards - O'Sullivan, Moore and Treadwell in particular are being flogged and its starting to show. Trouble we don't have the front five players fit enough to give them a rest.
The backrow could also do with more rotation.
McCall, Kane, Dalton, should start against Leinster
I would also start with a backrow of Timoney, Jones, Reidy
Lets face it we will lose and if we don't rest some of those forwards we will lose against Racing and probably Leicester
Pragmatic approach required.

I know he was our star man last year but honestly Cooney has not been great for a couple of months, Shanahan currently has a better pass.
McPhillips showed why he is not a starter - he is non existent in defence

O'Hagan o dear breaks down again - like Lyttle he is in the last chance saloon.
Regardless of talent we cant have players in the squad who spend 95% of their time on the treatment table

We are rebuilding from a very low point and will need to pick our games in the short term.

It was like Ulster of old last night, the team just looked disjointed. Cooney hasn't been great this season geoff outside of a few brief cameos, looks a different player in green though. Last night he fired a few balls out that looked like he was trying to take someones head off, some real aggression in them. McPhillips too, he had probably his worst game in an Ulster shirt and not just his defence though if he's not up to it defensively surely the system should adjust to cover that?

The defence as a whole looked like a lot of players weren't sure of their role or position. I noticed last week against Munster that Reidy seemed to do a lot of talking and organising in defence so could be his presence was missed

If Dalton didn't make the trip to Galway and Clive Ross did, what are the odds of him making a start against Leinster?

geoff999rugby wrote:By 3 NIQ I am saying 3 players who are not and never will be qualified to play for Ireland and yes Project is someone who will have to go through 5 year of Residency.
In practise Cunningham made clear this means a promising youngster they would be prepared to take a punt on.

Ok - so you’re saying that 3 Non-Irish Eligible NIE players plus 1 NIQ special project is the edict from IRFU. Wonder if that will apply to Leinster and Munster as well?

Of the supposed 12 full-time NIE slots available across the three provinces, in reality there are only 2 in Leinster (Fardy and Tomane), 2 in Munster (Taute and Botha) and 3 in Ulster at beginning of season, now reduced to 1 having cleared out van der Merwe and Deysel. With Coetzee’s, Taute’s and Fardy’s contracts due to finish next June - will IRFU allow any of their NIE contracts to be renewed - if the clubs want to - or do they keep to their 2012 “guidelines “ about non-renewal of NIE contracts? And if so, who are the new ones to come in assuming that the IRFU will continue to say only one NIE per position?

In that context, does your point about urgently needing a lock at Ulster mean IRFU would want an IQ player in that position since the IRFU plan on a 3-4 year basis and high-quality national stocks are not deep?

Fardy is unlikely to be renewed at Leinster given his age, and if Nagle stays at Ulster (why not, he’s getting game time), Leinster will have one more season of Toner (central contract till June 2020), and only have Ryan, Molony & Kearney to continue past that with two youngsters cooking in their academy.
Ulster have Henderson, Treadwell, O’Connor, Nagle with academy Matt Dalton as a possibility you say.
Munster have Beirne, Holland (finish June 2020), and Kleyn who becomes IQ in August 2019 and Wycherley, with Sean O’Connor a promising youngster in their academy.
Connacht have Dillane, Roux, the ever-improving Gavin Thornbury, and Cannon/Maksymiw as back-up stocks.