My Dad's bigger than your Dad

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Date: Saturday 10th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 1:  Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 2:  Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England

[size=42]15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).[/size]
[size=42]Finishers[/size]
[size=42]16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).[/size]




New Zealand

1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21) 
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

Yes, England get a lucky break there. Oh well, next in line should be enough to do the job. snap, crackle, pop

Loving the pre game vibe. Am just hoping we can hold our end up and produce a performance that respects the occasion - given the contrasting organisational structures.
We're realistically a scratch side held together by a few combos here and there while the AB's generally have greater coherence in their selection.
Good luck to all and enjoy the game.

nathan wrote:

Am i the only one that thinks Ben Coles choice of replacing May is crazy? i would understand if it was Ashton in for Nowell but May have constantly been one of englands best performers.

Yep. Some people don't get May. Others still think Ashton is the messiah.

He's not the messiah, he's just a real naughty boy......
Hence the prejudiced disciplinary record.

Oooh,
Someones in trouble... The matchday 23 is as follows (with Test caps in brackets):
1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21)
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

I'm realistically thinking NZ by around 10. They'll get ahead and we'll score late on to make it look an ok result.

On the changes, Curry should have dropped out even if fit. You can't slip off that many tackles at this level, his time will come. Agree on swapping the props around and Ashton for Nowell is a good shout, although Nowell is perhaps the better to start with his better defence.

Shields is an interesting one. I thought he went ok last week and was used as a front jumper to great effect, this could keep him I the team.

It would be good to see Lawes and Manu come onto the bench.

16. George 17. Hepburn 18. Sinkler 19. Lawes 20. Rhodes 21. Care 22. Tuilagi 23. Ashton

I'm glad Moody is missing, he's becoming quite the force in the scrum. Don't recall seeing much of this guy starting as I've not seen much Super rugby this year.

Just seen this on Twitter....what a year.

NZu20 side for JWC final 2011

1 Solomona Sakalia
2 Codie Taylor
3 Ben Tameifuna
4 Steven Luatua
5 Brodie Rettalick
6 Brad Shields
7 Sam Cane
8 Luke Whitelock
9 TJ Perenara
10 Gareth Anscombe
11 Charles Piutau
12 Lima Sopoaga
13 Francis Saili
14 Mitchell Scott
15 Beauden Barrett

England side had Daly, Ford, Mako etc....

nathan wrote:

Am i the only one that thinks Ben Coles choice of replacing May is crazy? i would understand if it was Ashton in for Nowell but May have constantly been one of englands best performers.

I think May is a defensive nightmare myself. He is great on attack and is a good finisher but for me his defence stops him being an excellent International winger.

Ironically our best after nowell.

Not quite sure where you get that from Eirebilly, May is possibly the best left winger about with Ioane. His defence (straight tackling, covering, high ball etc) is very solid.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not quite sure where you get that from Eirebilly, May is possibly the best left winger about with Ioane. His defence (straight tackling, covering, high ball etc) is very solid.

I must not be watching as closely as I should be then but from what I have seen he is poor defensively.

I think May is outstanding myself. England's back three are all very talented however, there are a few things they need to work on based on the SA game. Their fielding I thought wasn't great. If Schmidt was their manager I think they would be unbelievably good.

Nowell, Daly and May are seriously talented IMO.

eirebilly wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not quite sure where you get that from Eirebilly, May is possibly the best left winger about with Ioane. His defence (straight tackling, covering, high ball etc) is very solid.

I must not be watching as closely as I should be then but from what I have seen he is poor defensively.

3 or 4 years ago I would have agreed with you, although it was more his concentration levels that were a problem rather than actual effort/ability. He's always been good under the high ball, but often didn't set himself in the tackle right or would get a bit lost in the defensive line. I honestly think he's one of our few genuine world class players.

Taylorman wrote:Oooh,
Someones in trouble... The matchday 23 is as follows (with Test caps in brackets):
1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21)
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

Looks like a slightly weakened team to me with SBW and McKenzie.

Does that suggest NZ see Dublin next week as the big one and maybe they aren't taking England as seriously?

I think England could spring an upset here.

rodders wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Oooh,
Someones in trouble... The matchday 23 is as follows (with Test caps in brackets):
1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21)
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

Looks like a slightly weakened team to me with SBW and McKenzie.

Does that suggest NZ see Dublin next week as the big one and maybe they aren't taking England as seriously?

I think England could spring an upset here.

Based on what ?

Interesting team. I wonder given how strong England's defense was against SA did they bring McKenzie in as an extra kicking option. Although NZ didn't use him when he played v SA in the loss in Wellington.

Yeah I think England might pull off a shock too.

munkian wrote:

Based on what ?

If SA can win in Wellington well....

Tuilagi not in the match day squad

Moon
Hartley
Sinckler
Itoje
Kruis
Shields
Underhill
Wilson
Youngs
Farrell
May
Te'o
Slade
Ashton
Daly

Bench

George
Hepburn
Williams
Ewels
Lawes
Care
Ford
Nowell

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1060503320534679552

Rugby Fan wrote:Tuilagi not in the match day squad

Injured? That guy is pretty much a write off at this stage no? Just goes to show how the Premiership really shortens England players careers.

Think Manu might have picked up a sniffle.

No Mercer in the match day 23 is a surprise. wonder if he got a knock.

Almost can't see the screen for all of the willies being waved around here.

Ultimately, we'll see how far England have come and how far they have to go.

I thought that they definitely improved in their South African tour performances from what was an appalling 6 Nations. Jones should be looking for solid performances from everyone and forget about the scoreboard. They will be able to analyse their defensive structures after this match in particular. Good luck to England.

Presumably Manu will be injured opening a packet of crisps just before the warm up session.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Tuilagi not in the match day squad

Injured? That guy is pretty much a write off at this stage no? Just goes to show how the Premiership really shortens England players careers.

Not injured, just not wanted.

Plus it was Lions 2013 that screwed up Manu - they played him when carrying a knock to protect JD2.

Rugby Fan wrote:No Mercer in the match day 23 is a surprise. wonder if he got a knock.

Listening to the press conference, everyone was fit for selection.

Moon starting, Hepburn to bench makes sense.
Ashton looked good when he came on, Nowell offers more cover from the bench than Manu so see the logic there.
Underhill coming in makes sense.


BUT

No real back row cover, ie the complete absence of Mercer, is so bloody annoying. Lawes is better than Ewels and should be the second row cover and serving as notice to the starting incumbents that if they do not up their game they can be replaced by a quality player. Instead we will at some time see a lock in the back row as a planned change (rather than when Ewels came on last week and went to back row because Mercer was already on).

Mercer surely can't be dropped after last week....surely not???

I would have mercer there but the changes have plenty of logic. Strong physical bench in terms of forwards. Strong back row starting. They'll need to take the 2nd half display of sa from the off as even with a defence that looked very good last week we'll find ourselves too far adrift.

So, Lawes is covering back row - Grreat

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Mercer surely can't be dropped after last week....surely not???

I thought Mercer was one of the stand out players last week when he came on, constantly got over the gain line and looked very mobile.

LondonTiger wrote:No real back row cover, ie the complete absence of Mercer, is so bloody annoying.

There is cover, because Lawes and Itoje can play six, while Shields and Wilson can make a go of it across the back row. I'd prefer Mercer after the way he showed last week.

Suspect Jones might think that, if Shields has any contribution to make to the England cause, then playing NZ ought to bring it out of him.

If you'd told me Mercer wouldn't be on the bench, I'd have assumed he was starting. Odd choice to rotate him out. Hopefully he comes back in against Japan and possibly Australia to show what he can do.

Manu not being included is strange as well, considering he was in the initial squad last week. I'll concede the bench does have a better balance with Nowell, but who would New Zealand least like to see running on around the 60 minute mark?

Very surprised by the two to miss out to reduce 25 to 23.

And Wilson and Shields can cover lock....so 6 possible locks in the squad, crazy.

Rugby Fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:No real back row cover, ie the complete absence of Mercer, is so bloody annoying.

There is cover, because Lawes and Itoje can play six, while Shields and Wilson can make a go of it across the back row. I'd prefer Mercer after the way he showed last week.

Suspect Jones might think that, if Shields has any contribution to make to the England cause, then playing NZ ought to bring it out of him.

In Eddie's mind that is cover. But Lawes is a better lock than he is a 6 and a much better lock than Ewels. Mercer is a better back rower than Lawes and Ewels, and stood up well against a physical SA back row. Now that we play a quicker team we are reducing the speed on the bench. The option to bring Lawes on at 6 would still exist with a Lawes/Mercer bench. Right now if Underhill gets injured early we will have a big but slow back row.

I guess that Eddie wants to make this an arm wrestle and keep the ball tight, maybe that is the best way to limit the defeat but our pack does not stack up against NZ well enough to do that for long.

Surprising selection. No Tuilagi on the bench when he's arguably one of England's best impact players. Mercer has been treated very harshly after a excellent showing last week. Ashton in the starting XV is immensely worrying due to his defensive shortcomings, as is Teo keeping his place for the same reason (both short of minutes this season, too!).

The optimism for Saturday retreats ever more.

This is Eddie’s best attempt to date at ironic humour, surely. How many times has he not been able to select (an injured) Manu? And the 1st time he’s able to – he does, then doesn’t. Comedic gold. Shame he spoilt the moment by also dropping arguably our best available BRer in Mercer. Oh Eddie, you cheeky monkey!

NZ by 10-15.

Duty281 wrote:Surprising selection. No Tuilagi on the bench when he's arguably one of England's best impact players. Mercer has been treated very harshly after a excellent showing last week. Ashton in the starting XV is immensely worrying due to his defensive shortcomings, as is Teo keeping his place for the same reason (both short of minutes this season, too!).

The optimism for Saturday retreats ever more.

In 2012

munkian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Surprising selection. No Tuilagi on the bench when he's arguably one of England's best impact players. Mercer has been treated very harshly after a excellent showing last week. Ashton in the starting XV is immensely worrying due to his defensive shortcomings, as is Teo keeping his place for the same reason (both short of minutes this season, too!).

The optimism for Saturday retreats ever more.

In 2012

I'd much rather have Tuilagi coming off the bench for the final 20 than Jack Nowell.

Duty281 wrote:

munkian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Surprising selection. No Tuilagi on the bench when he's arguably one of England's best impact players. Mercer has been treated very harshly after a excellent showing last week. Ashton in the starting XV is immensely worrying due to his defensive shortcomings, as is Teo keeping his place for the same reason (both short of minutes this season, too!).

The optimism for Saturday retreats ever more.

In 2012

I'd much rather have Tuilagi coming off the bench for the final 20 than Jack Nowell.

t least Nowell will last the final 20

LondonTiger wrote:In Eddie's mind that is cover. But Lawes is a better lock than he is a 6 and a much better lock than Ewels. Mercer is a better back rower than Lawes and Ewels, and stood up well against a physical SA back row.

Tend to agree.

Think the selection reflects Jones' belief that Kruis, Itoje, Lawes & Launchbury are four of his best players, so he is sorely tempted to have them all in the matchday 23, when they are fit & on form. If one of them isn't playing six, then two of them will be on the bench, just as Ewels and Lawes are today.

Rugby Fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:In Eddie's mind that is cover. But Lawes is a better lock than he is a 6 and a much better lock than Ewels. Mercer is a better back rower than Lawes and Ewels, and stood up well against a physical SA back row.

Tend to agree.

Think the selection reflects Jones' belief that Kruis, Itoje, Lawes & Launchbury are four of his best players, so he is sorely tempted to have them all in the matchday 23, when they are fit & on form. If one of them isn't playing six, then two of them will be on the bench, just as Ewels and Lawes are today.

I agree, but Ewels is no Launchbury.

He did it in Australia in that won series. From memory he had 6 forwards on the bench in T1 and no specialist back row cover in T2. In T3 Haskell was injured, can't remember exactly how they lined up, but have a feeling Harrison was involved.

But I would also agree with the above. It's one thing when you have Lawes and Launchbury on the bench it's another when you have Lawes and Ewels.

I think Ewels is just about fine as a replacement second row if we're in a pinch. Is he necessary as a second replacement second row? The only way Ewels over Mercer is a better bench is if we end up with two second row injuries. Not only are the chances of that remote, but I'd rather take that chance with Shields covering second row than Lawes covering back row in the case of any 1 injury.

Oh Eddie what have you done?

Mercer deserved a chance this week, Lawes offers nothing as a backrow option for me.

Eddie has shown he likes a lock at 6 so far. Guess if Isiekwe was fit he would have been in the squad, probably instead of Ewels but hey maybe as part of a 6-2 bench

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And Wilson and Shields can cover lock....so 6 possible locks in the squad, crazy.

Makes a change from having half the squad being able to play at 6, oh...

Tuilagi's absence is "caution".

However, Jones clarified that his absence was a matter of caution. “Manu is just not quite right,” he said. “He’s nearly there and we feel like he’ll be of enormous value to us in the future. Rather than take any risks with him we’re being quite conservative in his management.

“He’s at 99.9999 per cent but he’s just not quite right so we’re going to see if we get him 100 cent right. It would be nice if that’s for Japan. We’ll worry about that next week.”

I think there's a good chance Tuilagi hasn't yet got the hang of the defensive system, and Jones doesn't want to risk him bursting out of the line by mistake, which he has a tendency to do.

Glad to see Underhill start. That guy is class.

RiscaGame wrote:Glad to see Underhill start. That guy is class.

This is his chance to show he can translate it to the international stage - so far he hasn't really lived up to his promise, mostly by letting his desire to impress get the better of playing smart.

Poorfour wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Glad to see Underhill start. That guy is class.

This is his chance to show he can translate it to the international stage - so far he hasn't really lived up to his promise, mostly by letting his desire to impress get the better of playing smart him hurt.

I guess his most prominent moment was the try (and match) saving tackle on Scott Williams.