Scotland v Argentina Saturday 24th November 2018

by **BigGee** Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:54 am

Scotland v Argentina
Saturday 24th November

BT Murrayfield Stadium
Edinburgh

KO 14.30

Well Scotland head to another almost full house at Murrayfield with a slightly mixed bag of results from the AIs so far.

A sluggish performance against Wales

A very good win against a strong Fiji

A what might have been loss against a strong SA side.

We have probably improved game on game if we are honest but so have the opposition. We will very much be looking to end our campaign on a high note.

Argentina are not SA, thery have lost their first two games of their tour, but they are no pushovers either and will no doubt still be smarting a little at the shellacking they took from Scotland down south over the summer, when they were given a bit of a lesson. However since then they have had a new coach come in, the legendary Super Mario Ledsema, who over the course of the rugby championship, had them playing back in their old style. It has been a long season for them though and it remains to be seen if they can raise themselves one last time before going on their summer holidays.

The Scotland selection will be interesting. Toonie stated that it was unlikely that anyone would play more than three games, though it was not clear if that counted bench appearences. It is also his last chance to do any tinkering and have a look at anyone. Surely in the 6N, he will be playing what he considers his strongest team.

For the squad, WC places are up for grabs and some players may not get another chance and so Scotland need to put on a good performance.

I think he will role the dice a little bit for this one, in many ways he has to. My stab at the team:

1. Allen
2. Brown
3. Berghan
4. Gilchrist
5. Gray
6. Skinner
7. Watson
8. Strauss
9. Horne G
10. Hastings
11. Graham
12. Dunbar
13. Jones
14. Maitland
15. Kinghorn

Reid
Turner
McCallam
Cummings
Graham G
Laidlaw
Russell
Harris

by **RDW** Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:15 am

Thanks Biggee.

I hope he doesn't do too much expermentation - I really want to win this and the game is very winnable!

Gary Graham is almost certain to be involved, whether starting at 7 or cover on the bench.

by **BigGee** Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:22 am

I think this will be the hardest team to predict of the whole autumn!

I am keen to see what GG brings to the party though. The fact that Toonie has persisted with him indicates that he does rate him and wants him involved. He certainly is a robust physical player and if Saturday showed us anything, it is that we do need a few of those!

by **Biltong** Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:25 am

Argentina can blow very hot or very cold.

I thought they played well vs Ireland, with the bounce of the ball not goimg their way.

They were poor vs France.

Hopefully they bring it.

Sanches us their talisman, Bofelli a great find, but I think he is injured. Since Landajo has stopped his illtempered antics he has become their go to man in the pack.

by tigertattie Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:41 am

We can’t go taking Argentina lightly. We pumped them in the summer but I’d say that was a blip.

They’ll be looking to finish on a win so this will be another tough test

by whocares Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:54 am

Argentina front row is young and inexperienced and they are building for the WC. They are not at international standards in terms of scrummaging which is sad for an Argentina side. Overall their forwards got dominated all game which gave France front foot ball.
They did show some good super rugby style quick attacking moves at some point but were not very effective either. Sanchez and Matera are class acts though and their wingers are good (but one might have picked an injury)
A game that Scotland should definitely look at winning.

by Eejit Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:11 pm

I watched the France Argentina game on catchup on Premier Sports yesterday and they were very much in the game but as others have said they struggled with the sheer size of the French. Unfortunately we're not particularly blessed with that ~~Pacific Islander~~ Gallic robustness but you'd expect we'll have too much for Argentina though they are looking to be a pretty good side by the world cup- the Moyano try was a thing of beauty.

by **BigGee** Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:44 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46261989

Hoggy says that he is fit for this weekend!

by **RDW** Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:48 pm

It didn't look too bad after - all the post match photos in the changing rooms he was still wearing his boots with no ice packs are anything.

I agree though that I'd rather have Kinghorn getting a run.

by **RDW** Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:57 pm

Here's hoping he doesn't get in trouble for publicly criticising World Rugby though!

by **BigGee** Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:49 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Here's hoping he doesn't get in trouble for publicly criticising World Rugby though!

He is not the only one though, the seem fair game atm and rightly so!

by **George Carlin** Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:54 am

Unless we can administer a thorough wedgie to the Pumas, it's going to have to be chalked up as a disappointing winter series.

by **BigGee** Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:48 am

Hoggy doing press on Monday, so it seems likely that he will play on Saturday. I imagine that Kinghorn will likely play as well, but likely on the wing. Seymour has played the previous three, so he would be the one to step down.

Hoggy also said that he was going down to Exeter next weekend for a look around. He clearly has a week off scheduled after the AIs, which is normal practice for a lot of the internationalists and so hopefully he will be back for the euro games against Lyon.

by bsando Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:24 pm

George Carlin wrote:Unless we can administer a thorough wedgie to the Pumas, it's going to have to be chalked up as a disappointing winter series.

Or perhaps an odd one? It felt like there was a lot happening in and around the tests. One game outside the international test window and the debate surrounding that, Hogg moving to Exeter, Jones moving to Leicester, the snatching of Skinner and Graham and then the weekly debate regarding the stricter or non stricter players welfare laws. There’s been plenty to talk about that’s for sure.

I think for Argentina I’d go for the following

Reid
Brown
Berghan
Skinner
Gilchrist
Graham
Watson
Strauss
Horne
Russell
Maitland
Hastings
Jones
Graham
Hogg

MacInally
Dell
Nel
Gray
Wilson
Laidlaw
Grigg
Kinghorn

We all know Toonie is desperate to try Hastings at 12 as a playmaker so why not this weekend? It really does feel like there are so many awesome players to select from now despite the injuries. Roll on the 6N!

by **BigGee** Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:52 pm

I don't think that team is a million miles away.

Wilson and Nel have started all three games, so they probably won't be involved based on what Toonie has been saying.

Starting Hastings at 12 is intriguing but I suspect he will only do it as a bench option at this stage. Dunbar probably merits another start at 12 to prove that he still has it.

I'd start Kinghorn as well and give Graham a better run from the bench than he got last time out. He still is very inexperienced it is probably worth remembering.

I am sure Fagerson will be in there somewhere as well, he is definitely worth another shot.

by tigertattie Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:24 pm

In the interests of winning the game I don’t think there will be too much tinkering. For WC prep though, there will be some (plus player rotation due to fatigue.

My team

Adell
Broon
Berghan
Skinner
Gilco
Fagerson
Strauss
G Graham

Horne the good
Hastings
Dunny
Huw
Maitland
Darcy
Hogg

Allan
McInally
Maccallum
Toolis/Gray
Ritchie
Frodo
Russell
Kinghorn

Sure it’s acbit bonkers. Sure there’s too many changes. But it’s toonie we’re talking about. Probably mean Wilson the crayon will be picked but I just couldn’t bring myself to put him in the team.

The bench is much of a “in case of emergency, break glass”

My starting XV is a bit mad but would still do a job

by jimbopip Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:59 pm

What is all this "Wilson the crayon" madness???

Wilson was dressed in his best Batman batjamas.

No-one knows who the giant red crayon is.

Mind you, he and Rob Harley have never been seen in the same room.

A bit like Gordon Reid and Shrek in that respect.

by tigertattie Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:11 pm

jimbopip wrote:What is all this "Wilson the crayon" madness???

Wilson was dressed in his best Batman batjamas.

No-one knows who the giant red crayon is.

Mind you, he and Rob Harley have never been seen in the same room.

A bit like Gordon Reid and Shrek in that respect.

Batman is useful in a fight. A crayon, like Wilson, is utterly pointless. And not even Alexander Armstrong good pointless

by **RDW** Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:40 am

https://scrummagazine.com/argentina-squad-rocked-by-tragedy/

Sad news in the Argentina camp

by eirebilly Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:16 am

This is a game I am very much looking forward to, two very exciting sides in attack. Can imagine a very high scoring game with Scotland winning.

by **BigGee** Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:03 am

Toonie could not resist, he has gone for the Russell/Hastings combo!

You just knew it was going to happen!

by **BigGee** Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:03 am

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DshTX8lWkAAZgRE.jpg:large

by eirebilly Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:08 am

Not so sure about Russell at 12 myself.

by **BigGee** Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:08 am

That actually may well be our best team of the autumn. It seems to have the right balance of pace and power and a lot more to come off the bench.

A little bit disappointed not to see the two Graham's on the bench, but maybe their time will still come. McGuigan has been on good form for sale and deserves his chance to stake his claim. D'Arcy can go back to Edinburgh and if he keeps tearing it up there will sonn be back in the picture.

by EWT Spoons Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:09 am

SRU wrote:Head Coach Gregor Townsend has made nine changes to the starting Scotland line-up for the final match in the 2018 Autumn Test series against Argentina at BT Murrayfield (24 November, kick-off 2.30pm) – live on BT Sport and BBC.

The game is on-course for a sell-out, generating the 11th consecutive Scotland match to be played to a 67,144 capacity at BT Murrayfield.

It was only five months ago the two teams last met as part of the 2018 Summer Tour which saw the visitors to Argentina put in an impressive performance to win by a record score against the Pumas 44-15 in Resistencia.

A contrast to the last-minute win when Argentina last visited Scotland back in the autumn of 2016 when the home side recorded a 19-16 victory with a late Greig Laidlaw penalty.

The Scottish pack which fronted up so well against the Springboks last weekend sees six changes, including a new starting front row of prop Allan Dell, hooker Fraser Brown and prop Simon Berghan, which finished the match against South Africa.

Lock Jonny Gray retains his starting place in the second row and is joined by Grant Gilchrist in place of Ben Toolis.

Jamie Ritchie’s recent impressive performances see him come back into the XV at blindside flanker, with Sam Skinner, who played six last Saturday, moving to the bench after featuring in the last two matches.

Josh Strauss starts his first match since the 2017 summer tour at number eight.

In the back division there are three changes, two in personnel and one positional, with captain Greig Laidlaw continuing at scrum-half.

Finn Russell moves to inside-centre as Adam Hastings starts at fly-half to continue an exciting combination which has finished the last two Autumn Tests versus Fiji and South Africa respectively.

Huw Jones retains his place at outside-centre with Blair Kinghorn starting his first match of the autumn at wing. Stuart Hogg has recovered from his ankle knock to stay at full-back and Sean Maitland again plays on the wing.

Head Coach Gregor Townsend said: “While it was a great effort from the players to win in Argentina last summer, we are under no illusions as how different a prospect their team will be on Saturday.

“Under Mario Ledesma Argentina delivered some outstanding performances and they were hugely impressive in their victories over South Africa and Australia in the recent Rugby Championship. I’m sure that they will throw everything at us to end their international season on a high note.

“With four Test matches in succession, we’ve been conscious of rotating the squad to enable as many players as possible to be in the best physical condition for each contest. We are expecting those selected this weekend to bring energy and huge effort to the game and seize the opportunity to perform at their best level against a very good team. It will be another huge challenge, not only for our forward pack, but also for our defence – as Argentina play ambitious, skilful and effective attacking rugby.”

Last week’s starting front row players Stuart McInally and WP Nel move to the bench and are joined by Glasgow Warriors prop Alex Allan.

Ryan Wilson comes onto the bench after featuring in all three Autumn Tests, as does centre Alex Dunbar and scrum-half George Horne.

Sale Sharks wing Byron McGuigan joins the matchday 23 for the first time this series to complete the bench.

Scotland team to play Argentina at BT Murrayfield
Saturday 24 November (kick-off 2.30pm) – live on BT Sport and BBC

15. Stuart Hogg VICE CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors) – 64 caps

14. Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 36 caps
13. Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 18 caps
12. Finn Russell (Racing 92) – 39 caps
11. Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh) – 6 caps

10. Adam Hastings (Glasgow Warriors) – 6 caps
9. Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Clermont Auvergne) – 65 caps

1. Allan Dell (Edinburgh) – 16 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 37 caps
3. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh) – 13 caps
4. Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh) – 27 caps
5. Jonny Gray VICE CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors) – 46 caps
6. Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh) – 5 caps
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh) – 22 caps
8. Josh Strauss (Sale Sharks) – 16 caps

Substitutes:

16. Stuart McInally (Edinburgh) – 21 caps
17. Alex Allan (Glasgow Warriors) – 6 caps
18. Willem Nel (Edinburgh) – 25 caps
19. Sam Skinner (Exeter Chiefs) – 2 caps
20. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 40 caps
21. George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) - 4 caps
22. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) - 30 caps
23. Byron McGuigan (Sale Sharks) – 5 caps

by **BigGee** Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:19 am

Lots to like about that team.

Probably our best second row pairing in the absence of RG, both carry the ball well in the close quarter stuff.

Back row looks balanced and Josh Strauss gets his chance to show that he should be starting at No.8

A scary midfield line. Hastings and Russell will no doubt interchange and keep the defences guessing. In the absence of anyone else really putting up their hands for the 12 shirt, this is worth a try. We know what Jonesy can do as well after watching him last week!

A really supercharged back three, if the Argies kick loose, then they will be in big trouble.

The front row bench looks as good as the starting one and Argentina have been struggling in the scrums all year.

George Horne could have an electric impact in the last 20 mins.

McGuigan is a good poacher and always seems to score tries.

Skinner and Wilson will provide good solid back up and versatility.

I am pretty excited about this team!

by EWT Spoons Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:27 am

BigGee wrote:Lots to like about that team.

Probably our best second row pairing in the absence of RG, both carry the ball well in the close quarter stuff.

Back row looks balanced and Josh Strauss gets his chance to show that he should be starting at No.8

A scary midfield line. Hastings and Russell will no doubt interchange and keep the defences guessing. In the absence of anyone else really putting up their hands for the 12 shirt, this is worth a try. We know what Jonesy can do as well after watching him last week!

A really supercharged back three, if the Argies kick loose, then they will be in big trouble.

The front row bench looks as good as the starting one and Argentina have been struggling in the scrums all year.

George Horne could have an electric impact in the last 20 mins.

McGuigan is a good poacher and always seems to score tries.

Skinner and Wilson will provide good solid back up and versatility.

I am pretty excited about this team!

Largely agree with all of this, except Wilson and McGuigan.

I don't know what Wilson has to do to miss out of a match day 23. He's going to bring nothing off the bench, sure he can in theory cover the backrow, but not particularly well in any position.

McGuigan - I'm just not sure on yet, he has been doing well at club level and he did well against Oz, but he wasn't up to much in his last run out for Scotland. Probably worth having him on the bench just to see what is the real McGuigan, but I'd probably prefer D.Graham as I think he's got far more potential. But that's just a personal preference.

by **RDW** Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:32 am

Interesting no Gary Graham - shows him he's not going to get capped for the sake of it.

Will he be back in the England squad by the 6N??

by **BigGee** Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:48 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting no Gary Graham - shows him he's not going to get capped for the sake of it.

Will he be back in the England squad by the 6N??

You would have thought he was worth a shot on the bench over Wilson, who has played three games at the end of the day.

So he is going to have to work for it and that is maybe no bad thing. I don't think he will be changing again though, how he gets on against Edinburgh in the Euros may be key to him getting back into the squad for the 6N.

by IanBru Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:19 pm

jimbopip wrote:What is all this "Wilson the crayon" madness???

Wilson was dressed in his best Batman batjamas.

No-one knows who the giant red crayon is.

Mind you, he and Rob Harley have never been seen in the same room.

A bit like Gordon Reid and Shrek in that respect.

Sigh... Time to dust off the classics.

Ianbru wrote:For the sake of the uninitiated, I have produced this dramatis personae for your assistance:

Name Ryan Wilson Ryan Grant Rory Hughes Richie Vernon Gavin Quinn Ally Maclay AN Other
AKA Batman Bane
TBC
Shark Minion Tweedle Dee Red Crayon
Photofit
TBC

by Eejit Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:42 pm

On the nickname front when I recall first signed up to these boards, someone (George Carlin maybe, though apologies if that's wrong) had put together a very handy nickname guide that translated from whatever language the Scottish posters/borg collective post in into plain English.

by **RDW** Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:54 pm

That's Jimbopip - give him time and I'm sure he'll do another!

Also Bru - that post is definitely top of the pile for all time greatest posts on a Scottish thread! Laugh

by jimbopip Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:28 pm

eirebilly wrote:Not so sure about Russell at 12 myself.

I said something similar to young Pippetto and his reply was, "Finn can play 12! I have a letter from him upstairs where he tells me how he used to do it."

And he does. Very Happy

by Heuer27 Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:28 pm

My understanding is that mr crayon was the weegie from Fiji.

by Eejit Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:43 pm

Heuer27 wrote:My understanding is that mr crayon was the weegie from Fiji.

Ah yes, when Niko had that budget flat top haircut.

by Heuer27 Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:47 pm

Yep he was a blunt crayon.

by jimbopip Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:47 pm

Eejit wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:My understanding is that mr crayon was the weegie from Fiji.
Ah yes, when Niko had that budget flat top haircut.

This is 100% plausible because the Giant Crayon kept himself aloof when the rammy was ongoing and has kept shtum about it ever since; we all know it is not in Niko's nature to engage in boisterous behaviour and he is, by nature, introverted and taciturn. As the old Fijian saying goes, "Riot? Me? Not today, thank you"

by Heuer27 Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:49 pm

It’s plausible because I saw the cctv.

by jimbopip Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:57 pm

Heuer27 wrote:It’s plausible because I saw the cctv.

And we all know what you can do with facts. Laugh

by Heuer27 Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:07 pm

It’s almost like I’ve cheated. angel

by Heuer27 Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:11 pm

Back to the game. Wee Frodo must think he’ll be herding cats with Hastings and Russell outside him on Saturday.

by eirebilly Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:16 pm

Love the craic on Scottish threads, always a good read and laugh. thumbsup

by TJ Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:51 pm

So nicknames - A few I know I'll put against their names on the team sheet Please corect and add as needed. #Some of the newbs I haven't heard nicknames for

15. Stuart Hogg - Didier Hoggba for his diving
14. Sean Maitland- No maits
13. Huw Jones = Who he?
12. Finn Russell - Dancer
11. Blair Kinghorn ???
10. Adam Hastings ???
9. Greig Laidlaw -Frodo

1. Allan Dell - something about computers - I forget
2. Fraser Brown ?????
3. Simon Berghan ???????
4. Grant Gilchrist ?????????
5. Jonny Gray - Ickle Jonny
6. Jamie Ritchie ???????
7. Hamish Watson - Mish frae the glens
8. Josh Strauss - BLuto

Substitutes:

16. Stuart McInally ????
17. Alex Allan ????
18. Willem Nel - Nellie the scrumephant
19. Sam Skinner - ????
20. Ryan Wilson - Batman
21. George Horne ?????
22. Alex Dunbar ?????
23. Byron McGuigan ?????? -MUst be something to do with romantic poets

by jimbopip Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:09 pm

11. King Hornblare
9. Frodo The Ponderous esp after Saturday
4. GG (Blouse, Girl's, Big) this is to avoid confusion with the flanker GG(rugby player, aggressive)
16. Rambo ( the Luvvies just love macho nicknames: overcompensating, much?)
17. Jinky (have you seen his sidestep? a winger trapped inside a prop's body)
21. Horne The Younger/Faster/Smaller
23. Barry.

Up until now Peter Horne has been, in tribute to Hugh Dan The Heedrum Hodrum Man's classic commentary, "Hornee Furra Linee" but I did notice the SA article quoted recently compared him favourably to one of the All Blacks so we may be calling him the Scottish Ryan Crotty.

by Eejit Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:34 pm

2 should be "First choice" and 16 "The backup". boxing

by tigertattie Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:01 am

21. Horne the better/faster/actually a competent internationalist

by sensisball Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:14 am

So many personnel and positional changes make it hard to read how this will go.
Argentina have only won three games this year and will be desperate to end their season with a win. yes, their scrum is pants but if their forwards can generate good ball their backs can cause anyone problems.

Agree that Wilson should be rested/ given his cards as he is not my idea of an impact sub, regardless of how well he performed in a fracas in a take away establishment.
McGuigan again doesn't fill me with enthusiasm. Not known for his defense, if he is facing a dancing Argentinian winger I don't think it will end well.

I would also have given Gray the week off as he has put in a big shift already and we all know what he can do: hit rucks, tackle and carry for 1.5 metres over and over again.

I would like to have seen Skinner and Gilchrist starting together with Skinner's mobility complimenting Gilchrist's bulk.
Anyway looks like another interesting roll of the die from Toonie.

by 123456789. Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:40 pm

I can't work out if having Kinghorn, Russell, Hogg, Hastings and Jones in one back line is going to be brilliant or horrendous. All of them are capable of trying amazing things but all of them (to differing extents) are capable of utter, utter howlers.

by **BigGee** Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:51 pm

123456789. wrote:I can't work out if having Kinghorn, Russell, Hogg, Hastings and Jones in one back line is going to be brilliant or horrendous. All of them are capable of trying amazing things but all of them (to differing extents) are capable of utter, utter howlers.

I guess we will find out on Saturday!

by IanBru Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:34 pm

Some interesting rotation from Los Pumas. What noticeable is the number of players from those wretched performances in June who have retained their spots in the XV, or at worst been dropped to the bench. A major lack of experience at tighthead could be helpful for us.

Scotland v Argentina Saturday 24th November 2018 Argent10

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