The Top 3 Elite in World Rugby

First topic message reminder :

For those of us not in denial, you'll know by now that the top 3 ranked teams in the world are:

1. New Zealand
2. Ireland
3. Wales

A bit of a shake-up on the traditional pecking order, but good to see none-the-less. We have a clear and accurate view of the top ranked teams in world rugby, especially the top 3. There is no doubting NZ and Ireland, and Wales should have silenced the doubters upon completing their clean sweep. Wales have also engaged in a lot of squad rotation since the summer and remained unbeaten, including wins over SH powerhouses SA and Aus, so quite a remarkable achievement. Our last two losses were away from home against Ireland and England, but with playing them at home in the next 6N we should hopefully turn them over, thus maintaining our status as a Top 3 Elite and possibly moving up depending on other results. NZ potentially still a bridge too far for the current team, but we won't know until we know.

Previously I thought the Top 3 Elite could be threatened, but SA have shown they are not capable of breaking in. I think England have the potential to move in. England should have a better 6N this time around but at this point I do expect them to lose some of their away matches; they will be playing two of the Top 3 Elite away from home and my predictions are usually accurate. Behind the fourth ranked team we have the rest;

4. England

5. SA
6. Australia
7. Scotland
8. Fiji
9. France
10. Argentina

England clearly stronger than those ranked below them, with SA not far off. Whilst England can threaten the Top 3 Elite, the others cannot. The teams ranked 5-10 are all capable of turning each other over, with the score line being pretty close as has been the case recently. With France looking like they're about to implode again and Argentina still being crap, I expect England to top that world cup pool. I believe the Top 3 Elite will each top their pools respectively, with Scotland second to Ireland, and SA second to NZ. Fiji also looking like a potential banana skin in Pool D so I hope that isn't a midweek outing for Wales.

We won't know if the status quo is under a real threat from England until the 6N, but until then here we have a clear and accurate view of the top 3 ranked teams in World Rugby.

Are the rankings accurate? Yes

Does this mean the “Elite 3” will be in the semi finals with whichever non-elite team scrapes through? No

Any top 8 team can beat any other on any given day. Sure it’s more difficult to beat NZ and Ireland are consistently good (by consistent I mean over more than one season) but any top 8 team can beat the others

For example I think Scotland will beat one of Ireland or wales in the 6ns

England could also take a scalp but being away will make it more difficult.

NZ were regular “Elite 3” year in year out but often struggled at the World Cup. Likewise SA can be up and down but often find a run of form in the World Cup.

Enjoy the tag while you can. As the old saying goes, you’re only as good as your last game

Wales have beaten Italy, SA 3rds, Pumas 2nds, Tonga, Australia and Fiji to be an Elite 3 team of 1. It takes a lot of spunk to get those results.

Ireland (if they have a good 6N) usually grind through most of their games, looking very beatable for much of a good few of their games.  But Joe usually saves his bestest, brutal, butch'n'bitch, barnstorming games for a single side that he decides is the most dangerous in that year.

I think we'll follow the same pattern next year.  We could lose a few games and gain no title, but one side is going to face us in unbeatable form.... and they're going to be reeling at the end. (excluding Italy, who might actually beat us, as strange things happen in 6N )

Anyway....Hmmmm............ which side will it be, I wonder.  Which single side will Joe save his best game for?  Which side will he judge to hold most hidden dangers?  Which side do he think is the true 3rd best side inda Woylde?

Pot Hale wrote:Wales have beaten Italy, SA 3rds, Pumas 2nds, Tonga, Australia and Fiji to be an Elite 3 team of 1.  It takes a lot of spunk to get those results.

This thread has become very phallic for some strange reason, not to be uppity about it or anything.

Pot Hale wrote:Wales have beaten Italy, SA 3rds, Pumas 2nds, Tonga, Australia and Fiji to be an Elite 3 team of 1.  It takes a lot of spunk to get those results.

And when you aren’t all blaming the ref this is the other sort of tripe we have to often put up with, “the opposition had their 5th choice players”... etc. FYI, it was Wales 2nds that beat SA 2nds, before our 2nds went on to beat Argentina’s first team. Only seen a 2nd team play Tonga this campaign, and we won by 50. We beat Aus and then SA who had just beaten France and Scotland. They probably should have beaten England too, but somehow Farrell keeps getting away with his illegal shoulder charges.

Yoda wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else think the top 3 Elite sounds like a brand of cheap condoms?

When did it become elite? Hasnt someone always been in those three positions since 2003?

You've got to remember tman that this is a very new feeling for any Welshman. They've never been higher and like a fat weedy kid who reached the podium because the other boys are sick this is a proud moment. Let them have their moment. This is a banter thread isn't it?

ha ha, fair enough. I can see them going higher if all four of Ire-Scot-Eng-Wales flatten each other out. I think we are seeing for the first time some commonality across the four in terms of similar structures, skill levels. Win responsibility is shared more though Ireland still have a heavy forward based effort, albeit the best of the four.

Wales the next to get that ABs bee off the bonnet. Remember they were ahead until 1953, then it kinda went down a little after that...

Wales are good for their spot. This year has been their most consistent for some time and they've beaten Australia (at last), Argentina away and SA home and away. That's a pretty impressive run, especially if the team has been as experimental as Mikey says.

The big question is whether they can translate that into tournament performance. I still think that Gatland's preparation leaves his players having to play themselves into the first game of a run but vulnerable to injuries in the later stages, and at the RWC that has often been their undoing.

Humble bunch over at the Wail https://twitter.com/walesrugby/status/1067430918330019840?s=21

BamBam wrote:Humble bunch over at the Wail https://twitter.com/walesrugby/status/1067430918330019840?s=21

Reading it again huh? In all fairness to that rag, they’re only discussing what most have discussed on here. I speak for most when I say we want to avoid the all blacks unless it’s the final. Topping pool D would be the target anyway; I’d be pretty confident of wins over France or Argentina as I can’t see either having a miraculous turnaround next year; face Ireland or SA - Ireland will be very familiar opposition by then as we would have played three times that year already, and we can hopefully continue an impressive run against SA although I expect they will continue to improve too. I got this from the rag by the way, I couldn’t be bothered to go out and research it. They’re more humble than you though.

Poorfour wrote:Wales are good for their spot. This year has been their most consistent for some time and they've beaten Australia (at last), Argentina away and SA home and away. That's a pretty impressive run, especially if the team has been as experimental as Mikey says.

The big question is whether they can translate that into tournament performance. I still think that Gatland's preparation leaves his players having to play themselves into the first game of a run but vulnerable to injuries in the later stages, and at the RWC that has often been their undoing.

Yep. It’s difficult to get consistency when you were playing those NZ and SA teams often. Now we’ve avoided NZ, whilst some teams have improved and other SH teams have regressed. Experimentation has been going on since last year, including tactics. Gats hand was forced I guess but it was well overdue. We didn’t quite get the results but we weren’t too bad either.
The former U20s have had some time at the professional level and have managed to avoid injury - I think this has helped us with strength in depth as a lot of those players were good and all four Welsh regions are contributing. Tactics wise we seem to have reverted to a Gatlandball style of play. Gats knew it would work on the summer tour, the youngsters picked it up pretty quick and it’s been more of the same since. We’ll surely pick up a few more injuries, Ellis Jenkins already, but we’re well covered in most spots. A shame for Jenkins as I think he emerged as our best open-side in the summer. Faletau seems to have been out for an age now.

When it comes to a tournament like the World Cup or a Lions tour, Gatland is very good at preparing. I hope it’s more of the same now, with a bigger and better group of players. A lot will hinge on AWJ being fit too, with him and Jenkins out I think that would be two of our best leaders gone.

Poorfour wrote:Wales are good for their spot. This year has been their most consistent for some time and they've beaten Australia (at last), Argentina away and SA home and away. That's a pretty impressive run, especially if the team has been as experimental as Mikey says.

The big question is whether they can translate that into tournament performance. I still think that Gatland's preparation leaves his players having to play themselves into the first game of a run but vulnerable to injuries in the later stages, and at the RWC that has often been their undoing.

I'd say they have proved they can and Wales love tournament rugby; with a 9 on the wing last time and a shot at the big prize in 2011 had Warburton not been carded

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on Gatland's preparations. In both Lions tours he's gone into the first test with players who were manifestly not match fit, and had to rely on a stroke of luck both times to keep the series alive (Lealifano slipping on a bit of loose turf in Australia, SBW's red card).

RWCs he's done better, but you have to set against that a lot of 6Ns in which Wales's first match out was pretty dire.

Poorfour wrote:Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on Gatland's preparations. In both Lions tours he's gone into the first test with players who were manifestly not match fit, and had to rely on a stroke of luck both times to keep the series alive (Lealifano slipping on a bit of loose turf in Australia, SBW's red card).

RWCs he's done better, but you have to set against that a lot of 6Ns in which Wales's first match out was pretty dire.

Well you could argue that usually Wales AI results are pretty ropy, but not this year.

Previously I feel Gatland has felt hamstrung by a lack of depth and his view that the regions do not get the players fit enough. Other than possibly at prop depth is not an issue while the increased control Gats has had over players means he should not be beasting them in training before the 6Ns. Wales are in a better place than I can ever remember a year out from a WC.

Oh mikey, you are a spiky little sausage aren't you

Poorfour wrote:Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on Gatland's preparations. In both Lions tours he's gone into the first test with players who were manifestly not match fit, and had to rely on a stroke of luck both times to keep the series alive (Lealifano slipping on a bit of loose turf in Australia, SBW's red card).

RWCs he's done better, but you have to set against that a lot of 6Ns in which Wales's first match out was pretty dire.

His RWC record is:

Tier 1
Wins against Ireland (2011 QF), England (2015 pool stage)
Losses against South Africa (2011 pool stage), France (2011 SF), Australia (2011 bronze final) Australia (2015 pool stage), South Africa (2015 QF)

Tier 2 - all pool stage wins
Samoa 2011 (ask Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu for his opinion on this game)
Fiji 2011, 2015
Namibia 2011
Uruguay 2015

Which doesn't stack up particularly well when you look back at it. The wins against Ireland and England were obviously highlights, but they didn't top their pool either year and only won in 2011 after the top seed in their partner group (Australia) were pipped to top spot.

Not that I wish to get involved in this thread, but I wouldn’t ask EFS’ opinion on anything, unless you want a spectacular rant.

Maybe I'm being very dumb but who or what is EFS?

Wales have had a very good year and are well deserved of their position at 3. Not sure why people are trying to begrudge them of that.

Some seemingly insecure posters on this site...

eirebilly.


No one is saying that Wales does not deserve the place 3 in the world.

But to say that they ( Wales ) are an Elite team, at this point is in my opinion is wrong.

But hey every one has an opinion ok.

eirebilly wrote:Wales have had a very good year and are well deserved of their position at 3. Not sure why people are trying to begrudge them of that.

Some seemingly insecure posters on this site...

Not sure many people are trying to begrudge them 3rd place in the rankings - merely whether that means they can be bracketed with NZ and Ireland as an elite group, plus as with many threads this has descended into non-related "banter".

That Wales are the 3rd ranked team is inarguable - and a good achievement.
That they had there best AI period in a long time is surely inarguable - and sets them up very well for WC year.
That they are in an elite group of 3 is arguable however - looking at the points NZ and Ireland (92.54 & 91.17) have a decent buffer to Wales (87.24) who perhaps instead top the second tier also including England and SA (86.22 & 84.58).

Well it may be just me then but I see a bit of begrudging towards Wales and their 3rd place in the rankings.

As for elite, I dislike that word and would not bracket any team as elite.

robbo277 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on Gatland's preparations. In both Lions tours he's gone into the first test with players who were manifestly not match fit, and had to rely on a stroke of luck both times to keep the series alive (Lealifano slipping on a bit of loose turf in Australia, SBW's red card).

RWCs he's done better, but you have to set against that a lot of 6Ns in which Wales's first match out was pretty dire.

His RWC record is:

Tier 1
Wins against Ireland (2011 QF), England (2015 pool stage)
Losses against South Africa (2011 pool stage), France (2011 SF), Australia (2011 bronze final) Australia (2015 pool stage), South Africa (2015 QF)

Tier 2 - all pool stage wins
Samoa 2011 (ask Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu for his opinion on this game)
Fiji 2011, 2015
Namibia 2011
Uruguay 2015

Which doesn't stack up particularly well when you look back at it. The wins against Ireland and England were obviously highlights, but they didn't top their pool either year and only won in 2011 after the top seed in their partner group (Australia) were pipped to top spot.

What has any of that got to do with anything ?

Wales have had much better world cups than Ireland, yet Ireland are ranked above us, would you put as much effort into Irelands world cup credentials as well ?

I'd say the ABs are elite.... without a shadow of a doubt, and have put in a lot of time proving it over the years (even decades)

You're a very diplomatic gentleman, billy - but truth should hurt no man so much that he tries to modify it.

I just don't like the term elite LD, that's just me. If you do wish to refer to the All Blacks in that context then I would also disagree that they are an elite team. The gap between them and the rest is closing, maybe not showing in the rankings but definitely in the performance.

What is elite billy ?

How do you define elite ? What is the criteria ?

I would not class Wales as an elite nation, not until the four regions get their collective acts together and stop underachieving, but in saying that, only Leinster at the moment are elite in Ireland.

If I were to define an elite nation, that would be, where not only the national side, but the clubs/provinces/franchises are winning all before them. That is every competition they are in, then the sides from that nation are the most prolific. That is something you can definitely attribute to New Zealand.

But then again, would the franchises be as prolific in a NH comp ? Would New Zealand be as prolific in the 6N ?

You could have a strong case for a yes answer.

The ABs may be heading down towards the rest of us mortals... but two or three losses in one year does not drop their more extended potent record into a bin. The word elite would be reserved through a longer time frame than a season.... thus I wouldn't dream of calling Ireland an elite team. 'Elite' is a good word - I don't fear it, but you have to prove it over a longer time frame than a year or two (in my opinion)

The ABs are the only elite rugby union team on the planet. It'll take two or three years of mediocrity before they'd relinquish that term in my eyes.

Neither Ireland nor Wales are remotely close to commanding the distinction yet.

SecretFly wrote:The ABs are the only elite rugby union team on the planet. It'll take two or three years of mediocrity before they'd relinquish that term in my eyes.

I would surpass that and say they are the only elite team across all sports. Maybe Brazil in football, but their light is fading now, but New Zealand rugby is always the benchmark for every country in the world.

SecretFly wrote:Neither Ireland nor Wales are remotely close to commanding the distinction yet.

I agree, but it will not stop some of the spitefulness from other fans though.

To me, LD, elite means untouchable/unbeatable. As I said, its my personal opinion so I do not expect others to share it.

eirebilly wrote:To me, LD, elite means untouchable/unbeatable. As I said, its my personal opinion so I do not expect others to share it.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The ABs are the only elite rugby union team on the planet. It'll take two or three years of mediocrity before they'd relinquish that term in my eyes.

I would surpass that and say they are the only elite team across all sports. Maybe Brazil in football, but their light is fading now, but New Zealand rugby is always the benchmark for every country in the world.

They've had dips before.  They're not unbeatable or infallible....just, like you say, an elite team.  Elite teams can still get beat now and then.

For me, the All Blacks have an aura like no other team but even that aura is fading with recent results/performances. They are still very much the benchmark team that all others aspire to though.

SecretFly wrote:Maybe I'm being very dumb but who or what is EFS?

Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu

I was unable to quote or copy/paste his full name from the post above mine, so went for initials, to avoid risking misspelling his name.

Poorfour wrote:Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on Gatland's preparations. In both Lions tours he's gone into the first test with players who were manifestly not match fit, and had to rely on a stroke of luck both times to keep the series alive (Lealifano slipping on a bit of loose turf in Australia, SBW's red card).

RWCs he's done better, but you have to set against that a lot of 6Ns in which Wales's first match out was pretty dire.

Oh dear how are you still pedalling this myth . Records were broken and both tours were successful. It’s no surprise that some were not matchfit, which was due to tour scheduling - basic knowledge really so you must be on a poor wum. Also by that logic, we were one kick away from winning all 3 matches? Strange logic, considering now it’s done and won.

Not sure what you’re talking about with that? What a poor wum. Billy was right there are a lot of insecure English people on here.

LordDowlais wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on Gatland's preparations. In both Lions tours he's gone into the first test with players who were manifestly not match fit, and had to rely on a stroke of luck both times to keep the series alive (Lealifano slipping on a bit of loose turf in Australia, SBW's red card).

RWCs he's done better, but you have to set against that a lot of 6Ns in which Wales's first match out was pretty dire.

His RWC record is:

Tier 1
Wins against Ireland (2011 QF), England (2015 pool stage)
Losses against South Africa (2011 pool stage), France (2011 SF), Australia (2011 bronze final) Australia (2015 pool stage), South Africa (2015 QF)

Tier 2 - all pool stage wins
Samoa 2011 (ask Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu for his opinion on this game)
Fiji 2011, 2015
Namibia 2011
Uruguay 2015

Which doesn't stack up particularly well when you look back at it. The wins against Ireland and England were obviously highlights, but they didn't top their pool either year and only won in 2011 after the top seed in their partner group (Australia) were pipped to top spot.

What has any of that got to do with anything ?

Wales have had much better world cups than Ireland, yet Ireland are ranked above us, would you put as much effort into Irelands world cup credentials as well ?

Only as good as your next game they keep telling us - now it’s not the case when it’s convenient for certain people? I do expect a degree of consistency to be maintained however, which is why I think we can do a little better this time.

I think Ireland did quite well this year.

They beat Wales and New Zealand and as a result have been been officially crowned the Super Elite Top 1 Team of the Year by avid readers of the The Skibbereen Eagle edging ahead of the O'Sullivan Rowing Dogs Consortium Team Champions Boat Thing who have won it for the past two or maybe three years.

In other news, Jonathan Sexton says he plans to lead the team out at the RWC 2023 in France as he'll only be 38 years and 3 months and he wants to surpass Strings record.

I happen to agree with you Pot Hale, so when we turn Ireland over in the 6N that will make us the best in the world...

mikey_dragon wrote:I happen to agree with you Pot Hale, so when we turn Ireland over in the 6N that will make us the best in the world...

How can you turn over a team that has only one side?


Think about it....

mikey_dragon wrote:I happen to agree with you Pot Hale, so when we turn Ireland over in the 6N that will make us the best in the world...

On that basis, the best in the world is just the holder of the Raeburn Shield. Since Wales don't face Ireland until the final round, there'll be four chances for Ireland to lost it before then, so there's no guarantee that would be up for grabs.

Looking at the schedule, if Ireland do lose the Raeburn during the Six Nations, it could easily change hands again during the tournament.

I do hope someone takes that shield off us pronto. There's no space left in the Smug Schidt's Trophies Kabinah at the moment. Furlong is using it as a dinner plate.

he wants to surpass Strings record.

Has it been proven yet that Mr Stringer is actually human?

a (bijoux) God amongst lesser mortals, I'd like to have his babies to get some of that DNA into our family.

Mr Stringer was the first Human/Jack Russell cross breed. Pity that he fell in love with rugby at such a young age, would have won many Crufts awards had he chosen a different pathway

majesticimperialman wrote:eirebilly.


No one is saying that Wales does not deserve the place 3 in the world.

But to say that they ( Wales ) are an Elite team, at this point is in my opinion is wrong.

But hey every one has an opinion ok.

I dont disagree at all but its hard to define 'elite' anyway...its come under scrutiny because NZ are falling off their perch a little. They have for years been the closest things to an elite team in rugby as they were virtually untouchable...as the gap has closed - at a pace this year -then all of a sudden the hierarchy is being rocked and other teams think they're elite. Ireland perhaps but not Wales and in truth I think Ireland are a way off, at least 1 RWC!

Pie wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:eirebilly.


No one is saying that Wales does not deserve the place 3 in the world.

But to say that they ( Wales ) are an Elite team, at this point is in my opinion is wrong.

But hey every one has an opinion ok.

I dont disagree at all but its hard to define 'elite' anyway...its come under scrutiny because NZ are falling off their perch a little. They have for years been the closest things to an elite team in rugby as they were virtually untouchable...as the gap has closed - at a pace this year -then all of a sudden the hierarchy is being rocked and other teams think they're elite. Ireland perhaps but not Wales and in truth I think Ireland are a way off, at least 1 RWC!

At face value possibly a good point.

Just wonder what the value of sides, fans, media... anyone really...thinking the ABs are now vulnerable, less than a year out from the tournament.

As a useable tool for the ABs, gold. They couldnt buy that at this point.

Yeah I buy that...NZ have a mentality that will feed off that suggestion they're failing. However the difference as an observer is that I just dont think NZ have the quality of player they've had before, especially in terms of on field leadership. Read is frankly creaking and no McCaws, Carters, Conrad Smiths etc to take up the slack as in the past.

I have no doubt NZ will be there or there about come RWC, point is I think Ireland will be as equally prepared. If they can get past 1/4 final then I expect them to go all the way to the final. It will certainly make for a closer tournament and more potential for an upset. Great for the fans.

I’m not happy with Wales being in the ‘elite top 3’. I feel we’re more the ‘No.1 Elite Team in Western Britain (TM)’.
‘

Pie wrote:Yeah I buy that...NZ have a mentality that will feed off that suggestion they're failing. However the difference as an observer is that I just dont think NZ have the quality of player they've had before, especially in terms of on field leadership. Read is frankly creaking and no McCaws, Carters, Conrad Smiths etc to take up the slack as in the past.

I have no doubt NZ will be there or there about come RWC, point is I think Ireland will be as equally prepared. If they can get past 1/4 final then I expect them to go all the way to the final. It will certainly make for a closer tournament and more potential for an upset. Great for the fans.

And you continue to feed it, If Id had a dollar for every time Ive seen NZ not having the quality....one thing about being number one... you dont live in the past.

Taylorman wrote:

Pie wrote:Yeah I buy that...NZ have a mentality that will feed off that suggestion they're failing. However the difference as an observer is that I just dont think NZ have the quality of player they've had before, especially in terms of on field leadership. Read is frankly creaking and no McCaws, Carters, Conrad Smiths etc to take up the slack as in the past.

I have no doubt NZ will be there or there about come RWC, point is I think Ireland will be as equally prepared. If they can get past 1/4 final then I expect them to go all the way to the final. It will certainly make for a closer tournament and more potential for an upset. Great for the fans.

And you continue to feed it, If Id had a dollar for every time Ive seen NZ not having the quality....one thing about being number one... you dont live in the past.

Someone forgot to tell that to the Kiwis still harping on about Wayne Barnes all these years later!

Oracle, we love Barnes. Have you not been paying attention all these years. Hes possibly the best thing that ever happened to NZ rugby. Hes certainly lifted our win rate, taught us how to not lose another world cup match. And hes a much better ref. Everyone wins...except of course the cynics.

What you like to think and whats actually true are very different things. Barnes is fantastic. Has probably contributed more to nzs rugby success than any single other person, including kiwis. And we got all that for free

Pie wrote:Yeah I buy that...NZ have a mentality that will feed off that suggestion they're failing. However the difference as an observer is that I just dont think NZ have the quality of player they've had before, especially in terms of on field leadership. Read is frankly creaking and no McCaws, Carters, Conrad Smiths etc to take up the slack as in the past.

I have no doubt NZ will be there or there about come RWC, point is I think Ireland will be as equally prepared. If they can get past 1/4 final then I expect them to go all the way to the final. It will certainly make for a closer tournament and more potential for an upset. Great for the fans.

Latest from Hansen on this..

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12169332

This is why we dont worry. Theyre in good hands. Win or lose, the right people and players are there. The gameplan is what needs the work. Plenty of time for that.

Taylorman wrote:Oracle, we love Barnes. Have you not been paying attention all these years. Hes possibly the best thing that ever happened to NZ rugby. Hes certainly lifted our win rate, taught us how to not lose another world cup match. And hes a much better ref. Everyone wins...except of course the cynics.

What you like to think and whats actually true are very different things. Barnes is fantastic. Has probably contributed more to nzs rugby success than any single other person, including kiwis. And we got all that for free

Poaching NH ‘ref IP’.