Glasgow Warriors v Lyon European Champions Cup Double Header 8th and 15th December

Well the Euros are upon us again and Glasgow, after losing their first game at home, which is usually a death sentence in this competition, are now definitely looking forward to these two games, which could provide a route towards qualification to the knockouts. Yet even in that first defeat to the mighty Saracens, there looked to be a bit more about the Warriors than has been seen in Europe recently. They went toe to toe with the big boys and were not found lacking, Sarries knew they had been in a game for sure.

Glasgow really got their mojo back against Cardiff in the second match of the series, not only winning, but doing it in their swashbuckling style that everyone loves to watch. In truth they have not really looked back since then and have continued to play with style and a physical edge that has not always been there over the past few seasons. It is a potent blend and is getting results. The bad run of injuries that we had at the beginning of the season is also abating thankfully, with important players like Hogg, Swinson and the Nuke now all back up and running. Glasgow will be approaching this game with confidence, they know how to win on the road and if they win these two games, will be in a very good position to qualify.

Lyon, who are in their first Euro competition, made the cardinal mistake of underestimating their opposition and consequently lost their first home game to the Blues, they followed that up with a more predictable loss to Sarries away and so with two loses from two games, are as good as out of the comp already.

What this does to their motivation is hard to guess. French teams don't like to lose at home but equally are not paid up subscribers to lost causes either and the Top 14 will undoubtedly be their main focus for the rest of this season now. They will be dangerous though, especially if they stay in the game. Like all French sides, they will have a big powerful pack that will grind you down if you let them. They will not be used to the pace that Glasgow can play the game at though and may possibly lose interest in the game if they go badly behind, as they really won't have anything else to play for. If they lose at home, expect them to send a much weakened team back to Glasgow for the return a week later.

Glasgow main problem and it is a good one to have, is who to pick for this game. They have so many players on good form, there is genuine competition for places right across the team. Here goes with my selection:

1. Keeble
2. Brown
3. Rae
4. Gray
5. Harley (though a toss up between him and Swinson after the weekend)
6. Wilson
7. Gibbins
8. Fagerson M
9. Horne G
10. Hastings
11. DTH
12. McDowell (this is going to be the controversial pick, but he is playing out of his skin)
13. Jones H
14. Seymour
15. Hogg

Subs:

Bhatti (Allen is going to be on the naughty step for a few weeks)
Turner
Nuke
Swinson
Ashe (also pushing very hard for a starting spot)
Price
Horne P
Grigg/Niko (I can't decide on this one, both in tremendous form)

Hopefull Hastings, Price and Jones haven't gone too much into holiday mode after a week in Dubai lounging around on boats in the sun!

I'm sure there'll be a nice fitness session to break them in gently.

While we are discussing Dr's selection  decisions I would like to point out two incidents where Tim "Wiley" Swinson made the decision for the ref.

The first was when he was forearmed across the head. Swinson lies flat on his back, eyes closed and arms by his side. The commentators begin crying that he's knocked out and needs attention, the crowd were also howling "murder polis". Fair enough except; Tim cleverly keeps his right hand on the ball and the ball clamped to his side. Two Scarlets' players try to get the ball but can't wrest it from his grasp. This leaves the ref with no option but to stop play. Which then leads to the yellow card. (In my opinion a red all day long and twice on Sundays).

Now, I'm no medical practitioner but I thought that when you are unconscious ALL your muscles relax and you go all floppy (in layman speak). Is it possible that the wiley coyote was only pretending to be sparked out?

Secondly, the jackalling which won the decisive penalty; he does not reach over with two hands to grab the ball but actually gets his right hand UNDER Patchell. This has the effect of allowing him to pick Patchell up when he puts his left hand on the ball and pushes it into Patchell's chest.


I think Tim's a lot more intelligent than your average second row.

So he's either Wiley E Coyote or Yogi, "smarter than the average bear"

Tim Swinson is a bright lad, he has a masters in political science and is training to become a lawyer, so yes, smarter than the average second row you would imagine.

I thought he was spark out at the time and was amazed he passed his HIA, so maybe something in that!

Mind you he is probably only going to get away with that once if that was the case!

jimbopip wrote:While we are discussing Dr's selection  decisions I would like to point out two incidents where Tim "Wiley" Swinson made the decision for the ref.

The first was when he was forearmed across the head. Swinson lies flat on his back, eyes closed and arms by his side. The commentators begin crying that he's knocked out and needs attention, the crowd were also howling "murder polis". Fair enough except; Tim cleverly keeps his right hand on the ball and the ball clamped to his side. Two Scarlets' players try to get the ball but can't wrest it from his grasp. This leaves the ref with no option but to stop play. Which then leads to the yellow card. (In my opinion a red all day long and twice on Sundays).

Now, I'm no medical practitioner but I thought that when you are unconscious ALL your muscles relax and you go all floppy (in layman speak). Is it possible that the wiley coyote was only pretending to be sparked out?

Secondly, the jackalling which won the decisive penalty; he does not reach over with two hands to grab the ball but actually gets his right hand UNDER Patchell. This has the effect of allowing him to pick Patchell up when he puts his left hand on the ball and pushes it into Patchell's chest.


I think Tim's a lot more intelligent than your average second row.

So he's either Wiley E Coyote or Yogi, "smarter than the average bear"

Noticed the second one myself, excellent body position from Tiny Tim and Patchell couldn't do a thiing about it. I think he may start this week.

Are Glasgow looking for 8, 9 or 10 points from these two games. To get a second spot you are probably needing 10pts (your you could be playing Sarries in the quarters too)

Brendan wrote:Are Glasgow looking for 8, 9 or 10 points from these two games.  To get a second spot you are probably needing 10pts (your you could be playing Sarries in the quarters too)

Really? I don't have stats on hand, but am almost positive 19 points - which is what Glasgow would end on if they picked up 4 pts here, 5 pts in each of their remaining home games, and nothing at Sarries - is usually enough to get a runners-up spot. A couple of years ago certainly Glasgow qualified with 19 (four wins, one losing BP and two TBP - both against Leicester).

My view is that Glasgow need to first and foremost target the win here. Winning in France is rarely easy, and there's still an outside chance Lyon could qualify from the group if they win all their remaining matches, so they should still be up for this one. Obviously, if the opportunity for the TBP is there Glasgow should take it, but it's not the first priority.

Win this match and - assuming Sarries beat Blues - both Lyon and the Blues will be out of the comp. Glasgow's next two fixtures are at home to those two, and it's very possible they won't put up that much of a fight in those circumstances.

Three more wins and a few BPs should take us through, 4 more wins, with or without BPs definitely will.

Of course the assumption here is that we won't beat Sarries in January, though they may well have walked into the quarter by then and might not be quite as switched on as they were last time we played them.

Anyway, I am glad that it is our last match either way. We could both be qualified by then, or it could be one last shot at redemption for us.

This match we just need to concentrate on winning, though paradoxically, our best chance of doing that involves playing the fast paced game that French teams don't like which will allow us to score a lot of tries in any case. A tight low scoring affair will play to their strengths and not ours.

The order of these games might work against Glasgow a bit, Lyon are dead in the water in the competition if they lose to Glasgow first up. At home I'd say that was as close to a gimme as Glasgow are likely to get in this competition. Away is a slightly different perspective, and a win keeps a glimmer of hope alive for Lyon.

With that in mind I think this is a game where Glasgow should put the best player that they have available on the pitch in every position that they can and that should carry us through. I haven't watched enough of Glasgow for various reasons in recent weeks to say for certain what that should be although I always think if Glasgow can get George Horner, Huw Jones and Stuart Hogg (it used to be Russell as well and on form Hastings comes near that potential to create) on the pitch and firing it should see them through against almost every team.

Top three teams (though might change) look like Sarries, Racing and Leinster. Not great choices but they look like being the top 3.  The more points you get the lower ranked winner you end up playing. So 1 extra point might make the difference of who you play.

Also if you can pick up 20 pts against Blues and Lyon you go into the last game with a shot at top spot (might not be likely but you never know).  The way Glasgow play naturally leads to TBPs as they score trys. Yes win the game first but if Glasgow want to be a top team in Europe they should win these games with a TBP. Blues also might put up a surprise fight in one of their games v Sarries.

I expect the first 60 minutes to be tight with Glasgow getting the TBP in the last 10 mins.

Need 10 points. Need. Agree with Brendan that if any team can score some momentum wins and pick up BPs, it's Glasgow. I just want to see a couple of great performances. Whether Dave Rennie stays beyond his newly contracted extra year is going to depend in part on whether his team can deliver in clutch games like these.

I have to say that I've been absolutely delighted with how the squad has stepped up during the international window. Glasgow doesn't have as much hoo-ha, strutting and hyperbole that surrounds the broader squad of teams like Leinster but the overall quality of the Glasgow collective offering has definitely improved since last year.

Keeping the Nuke and St Oli of Kebble fit is going to be absolutely crucial. We were hobbled last year with the inconsistency in our set piece platform.

George Carlin wrote:Need 10 points. Need. Agree with Brendan that if any team can score some momentum wins and pick up BPs, it's Glasgow. I just want to see a couple of great performances. Whether Dave Rennie stays beyond his newly contracted extra year is going to depend in part on whether his team can deliver in clutch games like these.

I have to say that I've been absolutely delighted with how the squad has stepped up during the international window. Glasgow doesn't have as much hoo-ha, strutting and hyperbole that surrounds the broader squad of teams like Leinster but the overall quality of the Glasgow collective offering has definitely improved since last year.

Keeping the Nuke and St Oli of Kebble fit is going to be absolutely crucial. We were hobbled last year with the inconsistency in our set piece platform.

St Oli has been a revelation this season - he is both an unit and also seems to have very sound scrummaging technique. He was the main reason in the 7 man Glasgow pack gained so many penalties at scrum time last week.

Big Chief Hogg and Arthur Ashe are doing the press this week (as in speaking to...not in a Batman meets them aff the bus way) so looks like they'll both be playing.

6. Ashe
7. Mr Gibbins
8. Young Fagerson


Mrs Gibbins to bench?

What about Matt Smith? I think he has to be our most under-rated back row. Very talented all round player.

jimbopip wrote:Big Chief Hogg and Arthur Ashe are doing the press this week (as in speaking to...not in a Batman meets them aff the bus way) so looks like they'll both be playing.

6. Ashe
7. Mr Gibbins
8. Young Fagerson


Mrs Gibbins to bench?

I like that balance Jimbo, Ashe has been playing very well, give's the BR a bit more grunt and takes some carrying pressure of Fagerson Jnr.

My team would be:

Kebble
Brown
Rae
Gray
Swinson
Ashe
Gibbins
Fagerson
Horne
Hastings
DTH
McDowell
Jones
Seymour
Hogg

Bhatti
Turner
Nuke
Harley
Wilson
Price
Horne
Mata

Anglobraveheart wrote:What about Matt Smith? I think he has to be our most under-rated back row. Very talented all round player.

Agreed, but not even in the euro squad this year, which gives you some idea as to our depth!

EST wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Big Chief Hogg and Arthur Ashe are doing the press this week (as in speaking to...not in a Batman meets them aff the bus way) so looks like they'll both be playing.

6. Ashe
7. Mr Gibbins
8. Young Fagerson


Mrs Gibbins to bench?

I like that balance Jimbo, Ashe has been playing very well, give's the BR a bit more grunt and takes some carrying pressure of Fagerson Jnr.

There is no way that Wilson won't be playing, I think Ashe will likely bench though. He has been playing well and deserves it, just so many options in the backrow now. As I said in my previous post, Smith can't even make the squad.

I would’ve thought that DR would pick Fagerson over Ashe.

BigGee wrote:

EST wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Big Chief Hogg and Arthur Ashe are doing the press this week (as in speaking to...not in a Batman meets them aff the bus way) so looks like they'll both be playing.

6. Ashe
7. Mr Gibbins
8. Young Fagerson


Mrs Gibbins to bench?

I like that balance Jimbo, Ashe has been playing very well, give's the BR a bit more grunt and takes some carrying pressure of Fagerson Jnr.

There is no way that Wilson won't be playing, I think Ashe will likely bench though. He has been playing well and deserves it, just so many options in the backrow now. As I said in my previous post, Smith can't even make the squad.

Probably true, I just prefer the above combination. If Ashe is up in front of the media, I wonder if it will be Fagerson who benches - not a bad replacement really.

I don't know how to do the quote function. Must be because I'm an old biddy.
I didn't realise Matt Smith wasn't even in the squad for RCC. I tell you what though, in 2 - 3 years time, a back row of Ashe/Smith/Fagerson will be very mobile, effective and will have tonnes of experiencebl to draw on, despite only being early to mid twenties. Excellent.

Anglobraveheart wrote:I don't know how to do the quote function. Must be because I'm an old biddy.
I didn't realise Matt Smith wasn't even in the squad for RCC. I tell you what though, in 2 - 3 years time, a back row of Ashe/Smith/Fagerson will be very mobile, effective and will have tonnes of experiencebl to draw on, despite only being early to mid twenties. Excellent.

You press the quote button and write your post below all the other text that appears!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:I don't know how to do the quote function. Must be because I'm an old biddy.
I didn't realise Matt Smith wasn't even in the squad for RCC. I tell you what though, in 2 - 3 years time, a back row of Ashe/Smith/Fagerson will be very mobile, effective and will have tonnes of experiencebl to draw on, despite only being early to mid twenties. Excellent.

You press the quote button and write your post below all the other text that appears!

Jimbo gives free tuition on this matter!

tigertattie wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:I don't know how to do the quote function. Must be because I'm an old biddy.
I didn't realise Matt Smith wasn't even in the squad for RCC. I tell you what though, in 2 - 3 years time, a back row of Ashe/Smith/Fagerson will be very mobile, effective and will have tonnes of experiencebl to draw on, despite only being early to mid twenties. Excellent.

You press the quote button and write your post below all the other text that appears!

Jimbo gives free tuition on this matter!

You get what you pay for.

EWT Spoons wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:I don't know how to do the quote function. Must be because I'm an old biddy.
I didn't realise Matt Smith wasn't even in the squad for RCC. I tell you what though, in 2 - 3 years time, a back row of Ashe/Smith/Fagerson will be very mobile, effective and will have tonnes of experiencebl to draw on, despite only being early to mid twenties. Excellent.

You press the quote button and write your post below all the other text that appears!

Jimbo gives free tuition on this matter!

You get what you pay for.

Speaking of not paying.... anyone got a link for the Glasgow game?

jimbopip wrote:Speaking of not paying.... anyone got a link for the Glasgow game?

www.payforBTsportyoucheapskate.com

tigertattie wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Speaking of not paying.... anyone got a link for the Glasgow game?

www.payforBTsportyoucheapskate.com

See my previous post about my parlous finances with the imminent Invasion Of The Starlings. All those open beaks, squawking Feed me, Feed me.

Teams up;

1. Ollie
2. Brown
3.D'Arcy
4. BIG BAD BOB
5. Ickle Jonny
6.Arhur Ashe
7. Mr Gibbins
8. Young Fagerson
9. Wee Horne
10. Son Of
11. DTH
12. Furra Linee
13. Nick Grigg's on fire
14. Seymour
15. Hogg

16. Turner
17. Bhatti
18. Nuke
19. Swinson
20. Fuzzy
21.Aldi Price
22. H Jones
23. MadMad Mata

Quite a selection.
The wheels might come off if either Hastings or Furra Linee go off as there is no obvious 12 on the bench.
One thing's for sure; DR isn't hoping for a draw.

I guess the big call is Grigg over Jones, but he is on the bench and will definitely feature in the match. It would be hard to argue with Grigg's recent form in any case.

Otherwise much as precicted. I suspect the absence of Ryan Wilson and not even on the bench would suggest he is injured. I guess we will find out once the Dave Rennie interview comes out.

It still looks a pretty good team to me. No great qualms about Ashe starting, he has been playing well and it looks like a very decent bench to come on. The front row replacements look nearly as good and Swinson and Fusaro will certainly bring some energy. You could hardly ask for two better subs in the backs than Jonsey and Niko either.

We have certainly got the tools, we just need to get the job done.

Looks like I was wrong on that one, Adam Ashe picked over Ryan Wilson on form it would seem, he is not injured.

Dave Rennie has made 12 changes to his starting XV as Glasgow Warriors return to Heineken Champions Cup action against Lyon this Saturday.

Rennie used last weekend’s victory over the Scarlets as an opportunity to rest several players and welcomes a dozen internationals back to his match day 23, as well as captain Callum Gibbins.

Adam Ashe is rewarded with his excellent form with a place in the back-row alongside Gibbins, with Matt Fagerson also returning.

Both Rob Harley and Jonny Gray missed Glasgow’s famous victory over the Scarlets last weekend and are brought into the engine room for the trip to France.

Oli Kebble’s dominant performance off the bench at Scostoun last weekend made headlines and he starts this Saturday. D’Arcy Rae keeps his spot at tight-head and they will both prop down either side of the returning Fraser Brown.

It’s a brand new back-three. Stuart Hogg and Tommy Seymour come in after impressing in Scotland shirts this Autumn, while DTH van der Merwe is back having helped Canada qualify for the Rugby World Cup last month.

Pete Horne starts alongside Nick Grigg in midfield, while his brother George is joined at half-back by Adam Hastings.

Ali Price and Huw Jones are two more Scotland internationals who will look to make an impact off the bench when called upon.

Glasgow Warriors Head Coach Dave Rennie, said: "It's exciting to be back playing in Europe.

"We're really proud of our performances during the international window and to get 16 points against top opposition was really pleasing.

"We've picked a 23 based on form for both club and country and we're looking forward to the challenge Lyon will present."

Glasgow Warriors team to play Lyon in the Heineken Champions Cup at the Matmut Stadium, Saturday 8 December, kick-off 1pm (UK Time) - live on BT Sport. You can follow the game on Twitter @GlasgowWarriors. Glasgow Warriors appearances in brackets:

1. Oli Kebble (19)
2. Fraser Brown (82)
3. D’Arcy Rae (51)
4. Rob Harley (194)
5. Jonny Gray (93)
6. Adam Ashe (61)
7. Callum Gibbins (C) (25)
8. Matt Fagerson (34)

9. George Horne (29)
10. Adam Hastings (17)
11. DTH van der Merwe (108)
12. Pete Horne (147)
13. Nick Grigg (50)
14. Tommy Seymour (121)
15. Stuart Hogg (109)

Replacements

16. George Turner (30)
17. Jamie Bhatti (32)
18. Siua Halanukonuka (18)
19. Tim Swinson (114)
20. Chris Fusaro (151)
21. Ali Price (64)
22. Huw Jones (13)
23. Niko Matawalu (101)

Not available due to injury: Zander Fagerson (ankle), Rory Hughes (shoulder), Sam Johnson (knee), Lee Jones (knee) and Lelia Masaga (calf).

Good to see Grigg over Jones. DR has always been about performances over reps and there’s no denying he’s put in shift after shift in a Glasgow jersey. Jones should be ready to rip them to shreds when he comes off the bench too. No idea about Wilson but that back row looks plenty physical.

That's a very strong, well balanced team. I would have probably started Jones, but can see why Grigg has got the nod - he's been electric.

I would have had Wilson over Fusaro as he covers more positions, but there is flexibility with BBB, Swinson, Ashe and Fagerson all capable of playing in different positions.

I can see Glasgow winning this - Rennie has got them playing a great brand of rugby.

No complaints over that team, and really shows great depth that Wilson and Dunbar don't make the 23. On the close calls, I'm pleased to see Ashe's excellent form rewarded with a start, and the selection of Furra Linee in the centres suggests a gameplan to stretch the Lyon defense, which certainly makes sense. Grigg over Jones is a big call, but Grigg has been on fire over the last couple of months, so deserves his chance. The bench has great impact.

It looks a strong team on paper, so let's hope they back it up on the pitch.

The only real concern I have is the cover for 10-12.

If Hastings goes off then Furra Linee fills in at 10. Do we see H Jones at 12? he hasn't been outstandingly successful there so far. We could put Grigg at 12 but that hasn't been outstandingly successful either.

If we lost both Hastings and Furra

Hogg at 10-Jones at 12-Grigg at 13
DTH-Mata-Seymour back three.

Going forward it would be "interesting"

Defending

Jones played 12 for the Stormers a fair bit, I know Toonie tried him once for Scotland there which did not go so well, but it was not just down to him that day in Cardiff, others did a lot worse.

Alex Dunbar could potentially be third choice now for Glasgow at both 12 and 13.

You could say he was behind Horne P and McDowell at 12 (though that may be debateable) and behind Grigg and Shuggy at 13.

He may be one of the contracts that they have to have a good look for next year, especially as he is probably on reasonable dosh. Unfortunately, he has not been very good value for it due to his run of injuries.

A pretty strong looking side from Lyon, all their big names are there. It does not look as if they have given up on this competition just yet!

Lyon: Alexis Palisson; Toby Arnold, Rudi Wulf, Adrien Seguret, Noa Nakaitaci; Lionel Beauxis, Jonathan Pélissié; Albertus Buckle, Mickael Ivaldi, Hamza Kaabèche, Felix Lambey, Manuel Carizza, Julien Puricelli, Liam Gill, Carl Fearns. Subs:Virgile Lacombe, Alexandre Menini, Kévin Yaméogo, Hendrik Roodt, Patrick Sobela, Charl McLeod, Pierre-Louis Barassi, Jean-Marc Doussain

I'm not sure Alex Dunbar is even third choice at the moment.

12; Furra-Johnson-McDowell
13; Jones-Grigg- Kelly

Alex Dunbar should feature somewhere near the top of both lists but won't until we see him put together a run of games. I feel really sorry for whoever is playing 12 against Ayr tomorrow as Dunbar has been sent there, presumably to be refilled with World Class serum.

BigGee wrote:A pretty strong looking side from Lyon, all their big names are there. It does not look as if they have given up on this competition just yet!

Lyon:  Alexis Palisson;  Toby Arnold, Rudi Wulf, Adrien Seguret, Noa Nakaitaci; Lionel Beauxis, Jonathan Pélissié;  Albertus Buckle, Mickael Ivaldi, Hamza Kaabèche, Felix Lambey, Manuel Carizza, Julien Puricelli, Liam Gill, Carl Fearns. Subs:Virgile Lacombe, Alexandre Menini, Kévin Yaméogo, Hendrik Roodt, Patrick Sobela, Charl McLeod, Pierre-Louis Barassi, Jean-Marc Doussain

I thought that Albertus Buckle was killed by Voldemorte?

GC, as he's in the pack he could be listed as Fatty A. Buckle.

You need to be as old as GC, or as big a cinephile as Bru for that one.

jimbopip wrote:GC, as he's in the pack he could be listed as Fatty A. Buckle.

You need to be as old as GC, or as big a cinephile as Bru for that one.

Went googling to see if theres a "Buster Keaton" professional rugby player

Unfortunately fate does not appreciate an extended pun

One of my friends had a client from the home counties called Arthur Neville Eastmouth Moore.

Yes. Arthur N.E. Moore? Of what, we frequently asked him.

Is anyone watching the match? Glasgow looking a bit loose at times but otherwise far and away the better team!

Referee having a shocker though

Lyon playing fast and loose and right into Glasgow's hands. Ref has been guff.

yeh the yellow card was fair but stuff like allowing lyon to dive straight on top of grigg who hadnt been given a chance to play the ball - eurgh

also the forward pass call was cr*p BUT Horne has been pinged for that before - some times when he's chucking a big floaty pass who slows right down and outright plants his feet so it looks like the ball is travelling forward

Hastings taking drop goal lessons from Russell obviously

Been a great Glasgow performance but Lyon have been really poor!

Well done Glasgow, look like they will be one of the Top second places.

Two BPs away from home so should be on 20 from the two home games. With Blues and Lyon out will they send B sides North. Only down side is Sarries, Leinster or Racing away is most likely their reward.

What a great win for the warriors, can't wait to get home from work tonight to see it.

Qualification is in our own hands now.

Job very much done for Glasgow. Forwards fronted up well, and I thought the half-backs controlled the game very well indeed. Lyon looked a bit headless at times, and Glasgow were good enough to take advantage (the last two tries came from Lyon forcing things in their own half/22). Didn't think much of the ref TBH, some weird calls. On the Griggs one, he said "he doesn't need to [let him up] if he gets straight on the ball" or words to that effect. Anyone seen that sort of thing before?

It definitely seems that Glasgow are making a conscious effort to front up in Europe this year, with quite a bit of niggle in both this game and the Sarries one. Have to be careful not to let it boil over, but good to see a bit of mongrel.