F1 2019 season

First topic message reminder :

Felt like a new season deserves a new thread...

It's reported in Italy that Maurizio Arrivabene has been fired. His strained relationship with Ferrari's prized asset Sebastian Vettel and cost him his job. Arrivabene got one last dig at Vettel though by replacing Raikkonen with LeClerc.

Mattia Binotto will be confirmed as new team boss

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Ma boy Lance with the drive of the day despite his team screwing him over with the new engine failing right away, meaning he was on an old used engine (around 3/4 tenths of a second slower in performance).

Again my boy Lance with another storming drive, continuing to prove the haters and doubters wrong as he continues to climb the drivers standings, within touching distance of Riccardo and Norris now in much better cars.

Lance usually has one incredible drive per season, with the rest being nothing short of abysmal. That will sting Perez, seeing Lance leapfrog him in the standings.

I see Kubica could be elevated into the points, along with Hamilton, if both Alfa’s are excluded.

Just John wrote:... I actually think Mercedes’ eye was off the ball this weekend, especially with the silly 50’s outfits, the changed livery...

Toto Wolff said the one thing he had learnt today was that one shouldn't fool around in celebrating the past (and hosting new boss Ola Källenius) when they needed to focus on the present job of racing.  Hamilton's mistakes were exacerbated by team indecision and bad calls - while when asked to comment on Bottas crashing out - he couldn't immediately respond - and finally said it was crazy under a pained grimace.

Hamilton said he felt like scheisser battling a fever plus sort of blaming a bad call on tyre choice for his initial crash ... and then more mistakes and bad calls.

Certainly a very depressing day for Mercedes.

in announcing penalties hours after the race news, both alfas get 30 seconds so Lewis gets 9th and Kubica gets 10th

No name Bertie wrote:

Just John wrote:... I actually think Mercedes’ eye was off the ball this weekend, especially with the silly 50’s outfits, the changed livery...

Certainly a very depressing day for Mercedes.

Indeed but a bit of context they and everyone should take. They will end up with both crowns again at the end of the season by some distance and will probably end up winning around 75% of the races this season or thereabouts. One bad day won't change that. They should spare a thought for the likes of Williams.

PS Big congratulations to Williams - they finally have a point to their name albeit in fortunate circumstances.

GSC wrote:in announcing penalties hours after the race news, both alfas get 30 seconds so Lewis gets 9th and Kubica gets 10th

Huh - what were those for? I must have missed something. All I got was it was some kind of technical infringement.


Anyway, predictably wet weather meant a chaos-filled race. 6 retirements - only 2 due to car issues. The rest spun out. Not exactly a classic race, but filled with entertainment, with multiple safety cars and pit lane panic among the rest of the shenanigans.

Once again Max overcame a fluffed start to lead and eventually win...albeit with some assistance from Mercedes this time around. I think he would've been in contention even if it had been a dry race, but the conditions definitely seemed to benefit him. Looked good - apart from the start and his spin when he switched to slicks.

Great recovery drive from Vettel. On a day when he had every excuse to bin it, he kept his car on track and made pretty rapid progress. On a day when other drivers were spinning all over the place, he seemed to have a relatively trouble free race.

Shame about Leclerc - he looked on course for another good result (2nd?) until his spin & crash. Not gonna be too harsh on him as he's in the company of some much more experienced drivers who did the same thing.

Surprise of the day has to be Kvyat's 3rd place...where the hell did that come from? Unless he backs this performance up with some more solid results, it may not be enough to save his place in the team, but good to see TR back on the podium for the first time in ages.

Almost as surprising was Lance Stroll's 4th place...but wet, chaotic races tend to throw up a few odd results.

VERY bad day at the office all round for Mercedes...all over the place both on track and in the pits. Toughest race of the season couldn't have come at a worse time for Lewis, driving while sick. Just a couple of points for Hamilton (following Alfa's penalty) and a DNF for Bottas while looking good for a podium - won't have done anything to secure his seat beyond his current contract.


Sad to see Norris bow out with power issues, but at least Sainz's creditable 5th place got some points for McLaren.

Anyone know what happened with Gasly? One moment he's battling for position...next thing I see is he's off the track with his front left sporting a large ugly gash.

Also, does anyone else think Hamilton's penalty for incorrectly entering the pit lane was ridiculous (not that it would've made any difference)?

basically the data showed they built in some form of traction control for the start.

Fred Vasseur says Alfa Romeo are going to appeal the penalties to both cars.

Had Hamilton not cut the corner to enter the pits he would've been forced to complete another full lap with half a front wing. Penalty was fully justified.

Gasly crashed into Albon

On reflection Hamilton lost the win (or at least second place) because of the lack of preparedness of the Mercedes team.  

Hamilton's mistake was redeemable because he hardly lost any time when losing his front wing - he lost it under safety car conditions (following Leclerc crashing out) and CUT the corner to pit (see Nathaniels comment above).  The engineers lack of preparedness for a replacement front wing scenario (a contingency that should have been expected under the conditions of the race) + indecision over the tyres lost Hamilton about a minute of time rather than about 20 seconds.   Yet he still ended up in third place by the time of the next safety car period.  [Mercedes team error 1].

Hamilton could then have served out the five second penalty under the later safety car period (when Hulkenberg crashed out) - and he would have been left in fourth or fifth position with new tyres [despite Mercedes team error 1]. Instead they pitted him after all the cars had concertinaed up after the safety car period and he ended up in twelfth position [Mercedes team error 2].

Bottas error was irredeemable because he destroyed his car when crashing out.

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Had Hamilton not cut the corner to enter the pits he would've been forced to complete another full lap with half a front wing. Penalty was fully justified.

Gasly crashed into Albon

A car crawling around with a damaged front wing for a Lap is more dangerous than what Hamilton did. The rule clearly isn’t intended to cover that situation and it was a ludicrous decision. Coupled with the equally abysmal decision not to penalise Le Clerc for one of the most obvious unsafe releases you could see, it wasn’t a good day for the stewards.

Born Slippy wrote:

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Had Hamilton not cut the corner to enter the pits he would've been forced to complete another full lap with half a front wing. Penalty was fully justified.

Gasly crashed into Albon

A car crawling around with a damaged front wing for a Lap is more dangerous than what Hamilton did. The rule clearly isn’t intended to cover that situation and it was a ludicrous decision. Coupled with the equally abysmal decision not to penalise Le Clerc for one of the most obvious unsafe releases you could see, it wasn’t a good day for the stewards.

One second - are you saying that Hamilton being punished, for you know, breaking the rules - was a bad decision? Rules are rules.

It is more dangerous to drive around another lap, especially in those conditions, but the penalty was justified and a slam dunk. Rule book doesn’t take into account every scenario that can unfold though. The unsafe release for Leclerc sets a dangerous precedent, and I’ll expect the FIA will make a statement on it. You simply can’t allow a team to use an unsafe release to impede a rival, while gaining track time/position, and only being punished with a poultry fine. I saw Derek Warwick in that stewards room, and he’s a total clown, so not surprised.

cant really complain about the stewarding being inconsistent and also complain when they dont apply the rules to a black and white case

GSC wrote:cant really complain about the stewarding being inconsistent and also complain when they dont apply the rules to a black and white case

Of course I can.

One incident (Le Clerc) is a stonewall example of exactly what the rule is intended to cover. The other (Hamilton) is an unusual scenario where, given the alternatives, some discretion should have been applied.

That said, I would obviously have less grounds for asserting inconsistency if the precise letter of the rules had been applied in both cases. I could accept a “rules are rules” approach if so.

Born Slippy wrote:

GSC wrote:cant really complain about the stewarding being inconsistent and also complain when they dont apply the rules to a black and white case

Of course I can.

One incident (Le Clerc) is a stonewall example of exactly what the rule is intended to cover. The other (Hamilton) is an unusual scenario where, given the alternatives, some discretion should have been applied.

That said, I would obviously have less grounds for asserting inconsistency if the precise letter of the rules had been applied in both cases. I could accept a “rules are rules” approach if so.

Why should Hamilton get 'discretion'? Hamilton missed the bollard as he made the error to crash in the first place. If he didn't crash he wouldn't have missed the pit entrance.

Hamilton infringed the rule so therefore the penalty is correct. Did not hear either Mercedes or him questioning it. From what I have read they firmly put the blame for yesterday on themselves (team and drivers).

The Le Clerc one though was wrong in my opinion as Verstappen was penalised by a 5 second penalty at Monte Carlo for the same thing. That demonstrates a total inconsistency from the stewards. As it was it did not really affect the overall race but if Le Clerc had not crashed out and gained a podium finish it would have been a major talking point.

Born Slippy wrote:

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Had Hamilton not cut the corner to enter the pits he would've been forced to complete another full lap with half a front wing. Penalty was fully justified.

Gasly crashed into Albon

A car crawling around with a damaged front wing for a Lap is more dangerous than what Hamilton did. The rule clearly isn’t intended to cover that situation and it was a ludicrous decision. Coupled with the equally abysmal decision not to penalise Le Clerc for one of the most obvious unsafe releases you could see, it wasn’t a good day for the stewards.

My thoughts exactly - had Hamilton gone round to complete the lap & come in "properly", he risked the entire front wing coming off, further damaging his car and littering the track with debris.

Just because there are rules about pit procedures, doesn't mean they shouldn't be applied with common sense in unusual / exceptional circumstances.

Just another example of the idiocy that's rife in F1 at the moment.

applying discretion is how we end up in the current state where penalties seem to be applied via a lottery.

its black and white, he drove across the track to enter the pits past the entry rather than lose time driving a lap without a front wing.

GSC wrote:applying discretion is how we end up in the current state where penalties seem to be applied via a lottery.

its black and white, he drove across the track to enter the pits past the entry rather than lose time driving a lap without a front wing.

One wonders if it had been Mr Vettel who did that, that the prevailing opinion would've been different from certain contributors...

GSC wrote:applying discretion is how we end up in the current state where penalties seem to be applied via a lottery.

its black and white, he drove across the track to enter the pits past the entry rather than lose time driving a lap without a front wing.

Exactly - the current state of affairs IS that penalties are applied inconsistently...so there is no reason why some leniency couldn't have been applied. Especially given that particular stop took nearly a full minute, practically a full lap on track.

Just look at the farcical track limit rules where stewards seem to decide from race to race and track to track, where its okay for drivers to completely exceed the track limits and where they get penalised for doing so.

Also FAR from black & white. Driving a damaged car that could shed more debris on the track presents a hazard to other drivers, so you can reasonably argue the sensible / correct thing to do was what Hamilton did.

I would suggest if Lewis decision was driven by safety, driving a damaged car at a 90 degree angle to the track and across wet astroturf wasnt a wise decision.

but it wasnt, it was purely driven by trying to save time.

also dont really see why a Mercedes slow stop would make any difference to a penalty. its irrelevant to that discussion.

The penalty was fair enough. It is in the rules and provisios aren't taken into account. It was a bad day at the office for Mercedes where every decision they made was a wrong one. Possibly the worse one is putting Hamilton out on slicks when even he felt intermediates were the tyre to be on and so it was proven.

Always nice though to see lesser drivers/teams having a day in the news and earning podiums and big points like we saw yesterday.

Helmut Marko claims that the wildly erratic Pierre Gasly won’t be replaced at Red Bull. Double edged sword for Red Bull, they’d like Max to win the championship and with Gasly struggling they don’t need any team order issues. But Gasly is costing them massively in the team championship. Especially with Ferrari continually throwing points away.

They punted Kvyat because they had Verstappen waiting. They dont have a replacement remotely in the same bracket waiting.

Gasly is only at RB to begin with because Ricciardo left to join Renault

Alfa Romeo have officially launched their appeal regarding their German GP penalties

Just John wrote:I’ll expect the FIA will make a statement on it. You simply can’t allow a team to use an unsafe release to impede a rival, while gaining track time/position, and only being punished with a poultry fine

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-unsafe-release-time-penalties-leclerc/4505397/

As expected, the FIA has agreed to impose time penalties for unsafe releases from now on. In other words, the FIA has agreed to enforce a rule that already existed, but which last week, they suddenly forgot about.

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Alfa Romeo have officially launched their appeal regarding their German GP penalties

The Alfa Romeo appeal will be heard on 24th September

Charles LeClerc hammered the rear end of his Ferrari very firmly into the barriers and somehow lives to fight another day.

So this is now "round 12" of the season.  In qualifying Robert Kubica's Williams has finished dead last every time (slowest time posted).  In every qualifying George Russell's Williams has finished second to last every time - except for today where he qualified in 16th position:

Q1)
15) Romain Grosjean Haas....... 1:16.978
16) George Russell Williams..... 1:17.031  
17) Sergio Perez Racing Point... 1:17.109  
18) Daniel Ricciardo Renault..... 1:17.257  
19) Lance Stroll Racing Point.... 1:17.542  
20) Robert Kubica Williams....... 1:18.324

ps I am beginning to see why Williams might decide to ditch Kubica (although I haven't heard of any plans to do so).

A penny for Ricciardo’s thoughts...ran away from Red Bull Racing because he was scared of Verstappen. Now looking like a foolish decision

In Q1 Gasly was 1.16 seconds slower than Verstappen.
In Q2 Gasly was 0.82 seconds slower than Verstappen.

Verstappen was fastest in Q1 and second fastest in Q2.

Verstappen breaks the track record and is currently sitting in pole position.

Max on pole and showing he’s hunting down that world championship

1) Max Verstappen Red Bull....... 1:14.572  
2) Valtteri Bottas Mercedes........ 1:14.590  
3) Lewis Hamilton Mercedes....... 1:14.769  
4) Charles Leclerc Ferrari........... 1:15.043  
5) Sebastian Vettel Ferrari......... 1:15.071  
6) Pierre Gasly Red Bull............. 1:15.450  
7) Lando Norris McLaren............ 1:15.800  
8) Carlos Sainz McLaren............. 1:15.852  
9) Romain Grosjean Haas........... 1:16.013  
10) Kimi Raikkonen Alfa Romeo... 1:16.041

In Q3 Gasly is 0.878 seconds slower than Verstappen.
This was Verstappens first career pole position and it was well deserved.  Have Verstappen Red Bull Honda bridged the gap to Mercedes (and Ferrari) in terms of single lap pace.  That Gasly is so far behind Verstappen suggests either Gasly is poor or Verstappen is brilliant.  Probably the answer lies somewhere in between.

ps Red Bull tend to have the best development of all the teams indicating they are going to get stronger in the second half of the season.  But this year they switched to Honda - and Honda seem to have got their act together.

pps: McLaren having switched to renault engines now seem to be performing much better than in recent years, and surprisingly are doing better than the Renault team.

I think red bull should be giving a certain F. Alonso a call. Gasly seems a nice kid but he’s out of his depth.

The way things are progressing, one would wonder that maybe Verstappen - Red Bull - Honda might be favorites for next years F1's Driver Championship.  Leclerc may also be a good shot - but one feels that for Leclerc he doesn't have the full support of the Ferrari team given that Vettel seems to be their priority.

think they're still a fair way off. One thing taking wins when Mercedes have bad weekends or capitalising at the handful of tracks that suit the car, Red Bull have got most of their wins in the hybrid era doing that, being competitive enough to take the fight to Mercedes across a whole season is a different task.

Well, well, well...

Not exactly shocking, given Max and Red Bull's recent run of results, but still quite a surprise, given how Mercedes have dominated qualifying until now. Even  more so, considering the Honda engine still isn't considered a rival to the Merc or Ferrari powertrains.

Congrats definitely in order anyhow...his first ever pole and the first ever by a Dutch driver in F1.

Have we just witnessed the turning point, where Red Bull (or at least Max) start to regularly out-perform the Silver Arrows and even launch a serious assault on the titles?

Okay, maybe just the driver's title - they'd need Gasly to be scoring a lot more to challenge for the Constructors' title.

Also, given Honda's engine still supposedly has a power deficit, you have to wonder if Adrian Newey and his band of aero wizards have made some major breakthrough (though obviously it helps if you have a driver like Verstappen).

Bottas evidently still wants a new contract at Mercedes, as he seemed on top form again, beating Hamilton by nearly 2/10ths.

Leclerc just edging Vettel, though unless he can pull out a significant lead, I expect team orders to come into play again.

Good to see both McLarens in the top 10...hope they can stay there.


Any takers on Max fluffing his start again, before coming back to take the win?

As GSC states, their success is still track specific, and when Mercedes have off days. This part of the calendar has always suited them every year. If Austria hadn’t been a 50 degree track temp, Mercedes & Ferrari looked superior, with LeClerc on pole, and Hamilton in second (pre-penalty). In Hockenheim, Hamilton looked relatively comfortable in the first stint, and controlling the race.

The recent problem with RB, has been the fact their chassis, seems to be six months behind the competition. Too late, by then.

As for Max fluffing starts, doubtful to be able to come back and win at the Hungaroring. Difficult to overtake, and weather likely to be dry. This should be more of a return to Paul Ricard, in terms of action.

Red Bull doesn’t need to win every race to be title challengers. They need Ferrari to take points of Mercedes.

The following races could be crucial to the championship after the summer break - Belgium and Italy where Ferrari should be winning with their rocket ship in the straight lines.

Singapore is where Red Bull where usually go well.

And Sochi where the straights might favour Ferrari.

Mick Schumacher won his first race in F2 today. Been a low key season for the German. Definitely needs a second season at the intermediate category

sochi should be a Merc paradise given most of the corners are slow to medium speed.

It is looking like Verstappen and Hamilton are the two fastest cars by some distance. Not sure what happened to Bottas - but he had to pit early for a new front wing. It is lap 23 and Gasly is 49.6 seconds behind Verstappen, with none yet pitting. Gasly is currently in 8th behind the two McLarens and the Alfa Romeo of Raikonnen.

Verstappen pits and comes out second in front of the Ferraris who have yet to pit.

I think Hamilton's best chance for a victory was staying out late and hoping that Verstappen wears out his second tyres. But Hamilton pits about 6 laps after Verstappen.

Hamilton wants to pass Verstappen when both are on fresher tyres - I would have thought it would have been safer to wait for Verstappen's tyres to die off.

Cracking stuff. Track helping Max here

Verstappen has fended off two attacks from Hamilton. I reckon this was the wrong tactic - Hamilton is likely to have worn out his tyres more than Verstappen in these attacks. I think Hamilton should have stayed out longer on his first tyres and then waited towards the latter part of the race to attack.

Worth a gamble by Merc to pit LH. Nothing to lose

Well Hamilton did have the tyre advantage but has lost it with these tactics and has gone in for a second pit stop. Mercedes are getting their strategy wrong.