England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

[propdavid_london]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46904505

[BamBam]

Thorley and Earl are exciting selections even if unlikely to get any game time, positive that their form has been rewarded though

Also pleased to see Robson in, guaranteed to be on the bench with only 2 scrum halves. Clifford is the other one that I really like the look of when fit

[No 7&1/2]

Poop. I was wrong about shields in then. Saving grace is Clifford could start now.
Not sure I like that star next to Robson.

[BamBam]

Star in this context is uncapped rather than apprentice, that's copy and pasted from the Mirror website (the shame)

[LondonTiger]

Poop. I was wrong about shields in then. Saving grace is Clifford could start now.
Not sure I like that star next to Robson.

Shields still in the squad.

BamBam has explained the asterisk.

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah missed him in my speed reading. I hope that Cokanasiga is fit and in the running for Ireland as he offers something completely different but not heard anything from bath. Couple of players vying for the full back short there as well.

[BamBam]

7 players for the back 3 seems like its expecting big Joe to not be quite ready ..

[Collapse2005]

Yeah missed him in my speed reading. I hope that Cokanasiga is fit and in the running for Ireland as he offers something completely different but not heard anything from bath. Couple of players vying for the full back short there as well.

Wasn't that impressed by him when he lined out for Bath against Leinster. Fijian Matt Banahan?

[propdavid_london]

1st game back from injury wasn't it Collapse!
Not that pro's shouldn't hit the ground running but I would imagine there would be a bit of rustiness.

[LondonTiger]

I missed Ollie Devoto's name when I read the list.

Eddie Jones interview on RFU site, he talks up the players returning from injuries:

https://www.englandrugby.com/ertv/video/jones-his-squad-for-guinness-six-nations-opener/

He namechecks: 

Launchbury and Billy - stating how important they are to the team
Mako and Genge - glad to have them back and suggesting Genge is pushing Mako for the starting shirt
Clifford and Devoto - stating how important they were in 2016 and how good Clifford has been recently
Hartley - not fir for first game thus not heading to Portugal with this squad, but should come back later
Ireland - best team in the world and you need to take every opportunity to score

[Collapse2005]

1st game back from injury wasn't it Collapse!
Not that pro's shouldn't hit the ground running but I would imagine there would be a bit of rustiness.

Yeah Im being a bit harsh alright. He is also only 21. Think England are doing pretty ok with wingers as is though.

[TightHEAD]

Launchbury should be Captain, Farrell Co Capt.

[Poorfour]

So, the "nailed on if fit" names on the list are something like:

M Vunipola George Sinckler
Itoje ?
? B Vunipola ?

Youngs
Ford Farrell Tuilagi (bit of a guess, but there aren't many experienced ICs in the squad and I can't see him going straight to something like Farrell Tuilagi Slade... which of course means that's exactly what will happen)
May ? ?

The two slots at lock will be down to form and fitness and we know it will work out whoever is picked. Back three really depends on who goes to full back. I would be happy to see May and Daly on the wings and Nowell tried at full back. I think Ireland would massively exploit Daly's fragility under the high ball.

The pack looks significantly stronger than it has been for a while, but it will be interesting to see how the back row shapes up. I think what I'd most like to see is Wilson Clifford and Billy now that Clifford is showing form and fitness, but I expect Shields will be picked. I think I need to watch him more closely to see if I can see what the coaches see in him.

[LondonTiger]

1st game back from injury wasn't it Collapse!
Not that pro's shouldn't hit the ground running but I would imagine there would be a bit of rustiness.

It was the game he got injured in. From memory, although he stayed on till close to the end he had taken a knock to the knee much earlier. His performance was solid, broke a few tackles without ever fully breaking free and defensively made his tackles as required.

[No 7&1/2]

No English, collapse. And very good. Come on leaps and bounds. Very clever plays too now much more than just size.

[LondonTiger]

So, the "nailed on if fit" names on the list are something like:

M Vunipola George Sinckler
Itoje ?
? B Vunipola ?

Youngs
Ford Farrell Tuilagi (bit of a guess, but there aren't many experienced ICs in the squad and I can't see him going straight to something like Farrell Tuilagi Slade... which of course means that's exactly what will happen)
May ? ?

I very much doubt that Ford will start. Midfield I expect Eddie to name is Farrell, Te'o, Slade

[Collapse2005]

No English, collapse. And very good. Come on leaps and bounds. Very clever plays too now much more than just size.

I know, it was a joke.

[BamBam]

As good a job as Moon did in the scrum, and Hepburn improved over the AIs, I don't think there's a single area that will get as big an upgrade as loosehead will with Mako and Genge coming in

[Collapse2005]

The England squad has been announced. No Hartley v Ireland nor Care. Robson comes in for Care. Looks a nifty player to me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46904505

[LondonTiger]

The England squad has been announced. No Hartley v Ireland nor Care. Robson comes in for Care. Looks a nifty player to me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46904505

Did you mean to put that on the match thread?

[Cumbrian]

Pretty happy with the squad, it is the strongest we have been able to put out in a while in my opinion.  It starts to look very strong when you add in some of the injured returnees like Underhill, Joseph and Watson.

I am a bit 'meh' about Te'o.  I am not sure you need him if you have Devoto, Manu and Fiji Joe in the squad.  

Probably not 'nailed on' but I would be quite surprised if Billy wasn't joined in the back-row by Wilson and Curry.

I would (assuming fitness) quite like to see:

01. Ellis Genge
02. Jamie George
03. Kyle Sinkler
04. Joe Launchbury
05. Maro Itoje
06. Mark Wilson
07. Tom Curry
08. Billy Vunipola

09. Ben Youngs
10. George Ford

11. Jonny May
12. Owen Farrel
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Elliott Daly
15. Mike Brown

[Collapse2005]

Looks a good side on paper however, a fair bit of chopping and changing from the last few England sides. Only 7 or 8 of the same players who beat Australia.

[No 7&1/2]

How can you drop May cumbrian! I don't say it lightly that's he's been one of the top 3 wingers in the world for the last 12 months.

[LondonTiger]

I am a bit 'meh' about Te'o.  I am not sure you need him if you have Devoto, Manu and Fiji Joe in the squad.  

I agree with you, but not sure Jones does. Te'o, along with Shields, are Jones favourites that I expect to play.

[Cumbrian]

How can you drop May cumbrian! I don't say it lightly that's he's been one of the top 3 wingers in the world for the last 12 months.

Oops!  A glaring oversight on my part. Probably swap him for Fiji Joe.

[LondonTiger]

England Team that faced Australia

Forwards
1 Ben Moon
2 Jamie George
3 Kyle Sinckler
4 Maro Itoje
5 Courtney Lawes
6 Brad Shields
7 Sam Underhill
8 Mark Wilson

Backs
9 Ben Youngs
10 Owen Farrell (Co-captain)
11 Jonny May
12 Ben Te’o
13 Henry Slade
14 Joe Cokanasiga
15 Elliot Daly

Replacements
16 Dylan Hartley (Co-captain)
17 Alec Hepburn
18 Harry Williams
19 Charlie Ewels
20 Nathan Hughes
21 Richard Wigglesworth
22 George Ford
23 Manu Tuilagi

Of those Underhill, Hartley, Hepburn, Ewels & Wigglesworth are unavailable for selection.

If Daly continues at 15 he will be peppered by Sexton and Murray - so Brown would be a better option defensively. Jones really rates Daly, so he would probably move back to the wing. Mako and Genge are big improvements on Moon ( who was good in AIs) and Hepburn so will probably return. Billy will come in, but I could see Eddie starting with both Shields and Wilson alongside him. Depending on who he pairs with Itoje we could have just 3 changes in starting personnel from that last test and one positional.

Of course Eddie, being Eddie, could do something very different. Just hope he does not select all 4 locks in teh squad and only starts two of them.

[Poorfour]

Amen to the point about locks, LT - though the squad has 4 proper flankers in it and he may have learned his lesson.

I do wonder to what extent Te'o and Hughes have been effectively filling slots that are intended for Tuilagi and Vunipola when they are fit - i.e. giving the squad someone of similar style to play alongside.

What Eddie does with the centres is probably the most interesting question.

We will no doubt grumble about which back rowers do and don't get picked, but the truth is that that's a good set of players who have all performed well internationally and no-one is likely to let the side down. Selection could well be driven as much by how the players gel in training as anything else.

Back three is similar, with the one interesting question being whether Eddie is committed to developing Daly as a fullback to the extent that he will risk short term results for longer term development.

But from 10-13 he has a huge range of possible combinations (especially if Joseph is fit later in the tournament) and the option to go for consistency, for a lineup he's probably always wanted to play but has been stymied by injury, and for like for like players or a bench that can play in a very different style.

[No 7&1/2]

There's lots of different combos Jones could go with which makes it all but impossible to call.his team and bench. Happily it's a great squad so hopefully they can put together the plan the coaches have come.up with. If we an go there and get the upper hand over Ireland's pack it would set down a big marker. I think they're good enough but it needs proving.
1 thing that does worry me is Daly at full back vs Ireland. They kick very well and I don't think I've seen him win an aerial challenge for England in his time at full back.

[robbo277]

I'll do a proper analysis when I've had a look, but Devoto is one that stands out for me. Hasn't been seen since the initial squad in 2016, given Ford and Farrell's partnership and Te'o's emergence. But there is a big ? currently in that 12 shirt at the moment.

[LondonTiger]

I'll do a proper analysis when I've had a look, but Devoto is one that stands out for me. Hasn't been seen since the initial squad in 2016, given Ford and Farrell's partnership and Te'o's emergence. But there is a big ? currently in that 12 shirt at the moment.

Issues with injury and  form had seen him fall away from selection. Last season he started 9 matches for Exeter (4 in LV cup) he has beaten that already this season featuring only in Premiership and Europe.

[Poorfour]

I'll do a proper analysis when I've had a look, but Devoto is one that stands out for me. Hasn't been seen since the initial squad in 2016, given Ford and Farrell's partnership and Te'o's emergence. But there is a big ? currently in that 12 shirt at the moment.

Issues with injury and  form had seen him fall away from selection. Last season he started 9 matches for Exeter (4 in LV cup) he has beaten that already this season featuring only in Premiership and Europe.

Some neat clips of him offloading on Rugby Tonight this week, too.

[Geordie]

Devoto was the "next big thing" at centre before "Prince" Mallinder wasn't he.

Whats the crack with Sam James? is he too inconsistent for Sale? Everytime I see him, he looks like a cracking big playmaking centre.

[robbo277]

Devoto was the "next big thing" at centre before "Prince" Mallinder wasn't he.

Whats the crack with Sam James? is he too inconsistent for Sale? Everytime I see him, he looks like a cracking big playmaking centre.

Is that a dynasty that includes Billy Twelvetrees before them?

I don't know why we can't produce a decent centre. The last U20 centre to make a real sustained impact was Farrell...

[No 7&1/2]

There's been some good ones coming through but mainly at 13. The ones at 12 who impressed at u 20s have had a hard slog establishing themselves in the prem there. Sometimes down to injury. Last obvious one was mallinder who suffered from being too versatile. Think I heard it was harry himself who said full back is his position?

[carpet baboon]

Will Jones try and shoehorn manu into the 12 shirt?
I hope not as he's a devastating 13.

[Rugby Fan]

There's lots of different combos Jones could go with which makes it all but impossible to call.his team and bench. Happily it's a great squad so hopefully they can put together the plan the coaches have come.

I want a strong scrum and lineout. The two best teams in the world have strength in both those areas, so we need to be able to at least hold our own. I know we have often struggled at the breakdown but I don't think we go anywhere if we can't win our set piece ball, and challenge theirs.

Under Lancaster, the twelve month run-up to the last World Cup saw a drastic deterioration in both areas, so I want evidence from this Six Nations that we aren't making that mistake again.

[robbo277]

The way I see it:

Options at 10: Farrell, Ford, Slade
Options at 12: Farrell, Te'o, Devoto
Options at 13: Slade, Tuilagi (Daly)

I doubt we'd see Slade start at 10. But if Farrell started at 10, we could potentially see Slade on the bench covering centre primarily and FH in an emergency. But realistically Farrell isn't coming off unless crocked, so would a specialist 10 be necessary?

Ford / Farrell / Manu is interesting. I'd be tempted by it, possibly with Slade and Nowell on the bench. You could also swap round Slade and Manu, with Slade starting.

I think if we shift Farrell across to 10, we could experiment with Slade at 12, although I'd rather see a 12 at 12 and a 13 at 13. Te'o and Slade are in possession, Devoto and Slade are clubmates but Manu is Manu and if he's back to his best he is our most talented centre by some distance.

Hard to know what I'd do, let alone second guess Eddie!

[BamBam]

If Manu is in form and fit, I would be starting him, and looking to fill the 12 shirt with the best complementary player to him and Farrell. Who that is I'm not sure, I'd guess it would be Slade/Devoto

Just think we need to start as many of our best players in their best positions as possible and look to find those who make the best combinations with those players, even if, for example Teo is a better 12 than Slade / Devoto, the latter two might be best for the midfield combo with Farrell and Tuilagi

[Poorfour]

If Manu is in form and fit, I would actually be tempted to start with Farrell / Devoto / Slade and have him on the bench. It's been a while since he's been in international rugby and I think he would have most impact on the game coming off the bench against a tired backline, much as Te'o did in 2016. Only better.

[formerly known as Sam]

Manu isn't a 12. Especially not the new leaner Manu. The idea of using him as a battering ram at 12 is hopefully one that England have discarded otherwise he'll be injured before we know it.

Manu is best at 13 either running an in line from outside or stepping on to the outside and bringing out the big fend. He's explosive more than he is just a unit. If you want someone to run in to a brick wall at 12 it's Te'o.

[yappysnap]

Good squad that. I'll admit I dont see many games now but im surprised Sam James hasnt got a look in, he seems one of the form English centres this season.

Also I echo others that Daly should start on the wing with Brown at 15. Goode was humiliated by Irelands kicking game a few seasons back and it pretty much ended his Eng career, we dont want that for Daly.

[robbo277]

BamBam

I’m guessing from the context you meant Manu at 13?

If Brown comes back in at 15, do we need the extra distributor in the centres? A back line of Farrell, Te’o, Tuilagi, with no playmaker at 15 may leave our wings getting cold. We could pick Ashton but that would leave one spot for May and Daly to split.

Personally, I’d stick with Daly at 15. Sink or swim. Need to be sure of him at 15 before we go into the World Cup, unless we’ve already decided to go another way. I note Wasps have lost a 15 and signed a centre. Coincidence?

I doubt a bad game for Daly would end his international career. He’s already proved himself at this level, albeit as a winger. If it was that bad he never played 15 again, he still has 4 other positions he could play for us.

[lostinwales]

Good squad that. I'll admit I dont see many games now but im surprised Sam James hasnt got a look in, he seems one of the form English centres this season.

Also I echo others that Daly should start on the wing with Brown at 15. Goode was humiliated by Irelands kicking game a few seasons back and it pretty much ended his Eng career, we dont want that for Daly.

Disagree on Goode for once. There was a very wet test where he actually played well - taking a lot of high balls and returning the favour with interest. It's just most of the other games where he looked so hopeless.

[BamBam]

Yeah Robbo, I was trying to say 10. Farrell -12.? - 13. Tuilagi would be my midfield, and thought that Slade or Devoto would be my guess at the most likely to fit best in the 12 shirt

Reading back I realise it made little sense!

[formerly known as Sam]

Good squad that. I'll admit I dont see many games now but im surprised Sam James hasnt got a look in, he seems one of the form English centres this season.
.

He seems out of favour with Eddie. Might get a look in post RWC. Odd really considering how many positions he covers (having played 10/12/13/15 for Sale) whilst being a unit with footballing skills.

[king_carlos]

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Wilson 7.T Curry 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Te'o 13.Slade 14.Daly 15.Brown

16.LCD 17.Genge 18.Williams 19.Itoje 20.Shields 21.Robson 22.Ford 23.Tuilagi

I think EJ will largely look at continuity for the first game. Launchbury and both Vunipolas I think will come back in quickly though.

[yappysnap]

Good squad that. I'll admit I dont see many games now but im surprised Sam James hasnt got a look in, he seems one of the form English centres this season.
.

He seems out of favour with Eddie. Might get a look in post RWC. Odd really considering how many positions he covers (having played 10/12/13/15 for Sale) whilst being a unit with footballing skills.

Yea ive onle seen match highlights but im very surprised hes not even name checked. As you say maybe post rwc.

[yappysnap]

Good squad that. I'll admit I dont see many games now but im surprised Sam James hasnt got a look in, he seems one of the form English centres this season.

Also I echo others that Daly should start on the wing with Brown at 15. Goode was humiliated by Irelands kicking game a few seasons back and it pretty much ended his Eng career, we dont want that for Daly.

Disagree on Goode for once. There was a very wet test where he actually played well - taking a lot of high balls and returning the favour with interest. It's just most of the other games where he looked so hopeless.

Ah perhaps it was against France! All I remember is jist how poor he was.

Yea Daly wouldnt lose out full stop, but imo its an unnecessary risk when hes so good on the wing and we have Brown.

[BamBam]

Jack Nowell could play openside according to Eddie...explains why we have so many back 3 players

[alcoombe]

Daly is probably our most talented back, but FB is far and away his third best position.

We need to be getting the ball into his hands more, in particular taking it on or close to the line. Within this England structure, that is best done at his favoured position, 13, or as a roaming wing.  Don't place limits on one of your most skillful players just because they are so versatile!

I'd like to see a Devoto-Daly pairing at some point this 6N.

Slade has done alright at OC for England, but not really set things alight.  We need more running threat in that wider channel, which for me is either Daly, Joseph or Tuilagi.  Slade's superb skill set still looks best suited to 12 to my eyes, with his shift from there for Exeter more due to club needs.

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