Italy vs Wales in Rome match 2

First topic message reminder :


Wales:

15 Liam Williams, 14 Jonah Holmes, 13 Jonathan Davies (c), 12 Owen Watkin, 11 Josh Adams, 10 Dan Biggar, 9 Aled Davies, 8 Josh Navidi, 7 Thomas Young, 6 Aaron Wainwright, 5 Adam Beard, 4 Jake Ball, 3 Samson Lee, 2 Elliot Dee, 1 Nicky Smith

Replacements: 16 Ryan Elias, 17 Wyn Jones, 18 Dillon Lewis, 19 Alun Wyn Jones, 20 Ross Moriarty, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 Gareth Anscombe, 23 Hallam Amos


Italy:

15 Jayden Hayward, 14 Edoardo Padovani, 13 Michele Campagnaro, 12 Luca Morisi, 11 Angelo Esposito, 10 Tommaso Allan, 9 Guglielmo Palazzani, 8 Sergio Parisse (c), 7 Abraham Steyn, 6 Sebastian Negri, 5 Dean Budd, 4 David Sisi, 3 Simone Ferrari, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Nicola Quaglio


Replacements: 16 Luca Bigi, 17 Cherif Traore’, 18 Tiziano Pasquali, 19 Federico Ruzza, 20 Marco Barbini, 21 Edoardo Gori, 22 Ian McKinley, 23 Tommaso Benvenuti



Date: Saturday, February 9

Venue: Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick-off: 17:45 local (16:45 GMT)
Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant referees: Wayne Barnes (England), Shuhei Kubo (Japan)
TMO: David Grashoff (England)

miaow wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:That is the most a win has ever felt like a loss

Not sure about that. The games against Tonga, Japan, Georgia etc. have been dog do. Even previous games against Italy in the 6Ns have felt worse, particularly when playing the 1st Welsh team. This, whilst poor, never felt in doubt - just sloppy and blunt in attack.

You are right it never felt in doubt just frustratingly poor mistakes, line out, halfbacks so ponderous. I don’t think Aled Davis did his welsh future any favours.

miaow wrote:There's still a bonus point victory in that team. Harsh on Steff Evans but good opportunity for Holmes to show what he's got against better opposition than Tonga.

I know a win is a win but.......

Post match Gats clearly tried to mitigate this ‘failure of performance ‘ by talking about his last year & the WC. But there is a big but here isn’t there?

This is the first time in 3 years Italy haven't conceded 3 tries.

As for where Wales go from here, obviously they'll be better against England. There's so much more to this team - collectively and individually. Wouldn't read too much into these performances - always felt like there was a lot, lot more to come if needed against both France and Italy. The issue is a mental one - why do Wales not deem it necessary to go for the jugular against both, even when winning? Why are they so poor at dominating games on the scoreboard, as well as with possession, by going to tries?

I can see Wales winning a GS. I can also see them losing the next 3 games. In reality, I think it's unlikely they'll beat all 3 on the bounce. All 3 play quite different 'brands' of rugby - Wales will definitely struggle with Scotland's running game at Murrayfield, England's physicality and fast starts, and Ireland's relentless possession. But the time that will play those 3 games is quite different to the one we saw today.

The good thing is Wales controlled this game as much as they needed to. Italy were/are poor. Solid defensively and showed some threat at times but as a team they're really lacking.

Anyway, it's been a good test for quite a few players. Dee (and even Elias) look good in loose play but the lineout is a shambles. Beard isn't really cutting it - Ball solid but needs to do more work, particularly carrying, to justify/challenge for a place. Wainwright really nailing down a RWC place - looks excellent.

Holmes looking solid in most aspects and even a bit threatening but still a bit nervy/lacking game awareness at times going forwards. Adams really, really good - 1/2P has a fight on his hands to get back in the team. Watkin a nice alternative to Parkes but lacking physicality on the crash ball unfortunately. Thomas Young looked comfortable at this level - definitely worth another look if there's the chance.

Aled Davies combining everything that is bad about Aled Davies in one game - shocking ball protection/control/speed and aimless box kicking. His run from the scrum did create Wales' first try though. Not going having 2 of the 3 9s so unreliable picking a ball up from a ruck. They both have their talents but if facing a team that's targeting that area, and TW is injured, it will be a big weakness. Biggar surprisingly off but no issue - know what he can do. JD2 not really test captain material, only if necessary and AWJ/Tipuric injured. Still think AWJ is getting used to it post-Warburton but a decent test nonetheless.

Liam Williams superb again. Looked like he was in second gear yet still one of Wales' best players out there. Props did well all round. Navidi good again - best player along with Adams today.

Disappointing performance and result but ultimately ran that risk with the team selection, particularly up front. Controlled the first half a la Ireland with flat possession but did show hints of being able to up the tempo quite easily as/when wanted to. Just not accurate or skillful or powerful enough to put Italy away. I'd say that's a 5/10.

majesticimperialman wrote:Mikey, are you saying the ref was against you today.

No.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

miaow wrote:There's still a bonus point victory in that team. Harsh on Steff Evans but good opportunity for Holmes to show what he's got against better opposition than Tonga.

I know a win is a win but.......

Post match Gats clearly tried to mitigate this ‘failure of performance ‘ by talking about his last year & the WC. But there is a big but here isn’t there?

This is the first time in 3 years Italy haven't conceded 3 tries.

Yes but don't for get Wales made 10 changes for this game. Just making excuse for why Wales did not get a 5 point bonus win.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

miaow wrote:There's still a bonus point victory in that team. Harsh on Steff Evans but good opportunity for Holmes to show what he's got against better opposition than Tonga.

I know a win is a win but.......

Post match Gats clearly tried to mitigate this ‘failure of performance ‘ by talking about his last year & the WC. But there is a big but here isn’t there?

This is the first time in 3 years Italy haven't conceded 3 tries.

But Wales win 11 consecutive tests?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

miaow wrote:There's still a bonus point victory in that team. Harsh on Steff Evans but good opportunity for Holmes to show what he's got against better opposition than Tonga.

I know a win is a win but.......

Post match Gats clearly tried to mitigate this ‘failure of performance ‘ by talking about his last year & the WC. But there is a big but here isn’t there?

This is the first time in 3 years Italy haven't conceded 3 tries.

Tbf Wales had two tries ruled out, one of them a bit dubiously. But can't really complain about that. Wales were poor in attack for the most part. Seemed to be comfortable manipulating the play, keeping hold of the ball, and even making (if not getting over) the gainline. But then miscommunication/clunkiness slowed down the 'set-up' move, Aled Davies is notoriously slow at feeding the ball if the receiver isn't totally settled, and Italy also defended quite well. Lack of power all over the side didn't helped - Italy have a pretty big/strong pack and dealt with Wales quite well. Wales never really had quick enough ball (until Adams' first try) where they could run straight and hard - and when they did they scored.

No need to go chasing the BP now anyway. If Wales are to win the title it has to be via a GS or England slipping up against France. Not scoring 4 in Paris, with Ireland getting 4 in Dublin, made a points difference title win unlikely. Today made certain of that - but no point risking a loss by opening up too soon. More likely to let Italy back into the game that way.

maestegmafia wrote:

miaow wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:That is the most a win has ever felt like a loss

Not sure about that. The games against Tonga, Japan, Georgia etc. have been dog do. Even previous games against Italy in the 6Ns have felt worse, particularly when playing the 1st Welsh team. This, whilst poor, never felt in doubt - just sloppy and blunt in attack.

You are right it never felt in doubt just frustratingly poor mistakes, line out, halfbacks so ponderous. I don’t think Aled Davis did his welsh future any favours.

A lot of players were a let down but none more so than Aled Davies. Holmes was hit and miss. Wainwright was pretty good, very strong and physical in contact. And to think we were told he wasn’t physical enough for this level

mikey_dragon wrote:And to think we were told he wasn’t physical enough for this level

Is that we referring to Gats, the boys, and you again?

I don't know who got MOM but in my opinion Biggar was Wales best player in the first half. 
did not see all of the second half so cannot comment on all of the game.

mikey_dragon wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

miaow wrote:There's still a bonus point victory in that team. Harsh on Steff Evans but good opportunity for Holmes to show what he's got against better opposition than Tonga.

I know a win is a win but.......

Post match Gats clearly tried to mitigate this ‘failure of performance ‘ by talking about his last year & the WC. But there is a big but here isn’t there?

This is the first time in 3 years Italy haven't conceded 3 tries.

But Wales win 11 consecutive tests?

Is anyone in Wales celebrating this ?
Maybe, but no BP which for most was expected.

Yeah there’s an open top bus right now.

majesticimperialman wrote:I don't know who got MOM but in my opinion Biggar was Wales best player in the first half. 
did not see all of the second half so cannot comment on all of the game.

Navidi - I was once told he wasn’t good enough either, and the person doing so lied about what I said. Look at where we are now...
Biggar was good but dropped off in the second half. Wainwright couldn’t have been far off either; strong, consistent, physical - all the things we were told he wasn’t

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah there’s an open top bus right now.

Congratulations

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah there’s an open top bus right now.

Congratulations

You’re congratulating the wrong person. Too bad you didn’t even have a reasonable retort to what I said though . If, but, what, who, where, but, etc.

mikey_dragon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

miaow wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:That is the most a win has ever felt like a loss

Not sure about that. The games against Tonga, Japan, Georgia etc. have been dog do. Even previous games against Italy in the 6Ns have felt worse, particularly when playing the 1st Welsh team. This, whilst poor, never felt in doubt - just sloppy and blunt in attack.

You are right it never felt in doubt just frustratingly poor mistakes, line out, halfbacks so ponderous. I don’t think Aled Davis did his welsh future any favours.

A lot of players were a let down but none more so than Aled Davies. Holmes was hit and miss. Wainwright was pretty good, very strong and physical in contact. And to think we were told he wasn’t physical enough for this level

Agreed with this!

Wales have played better in the past and lost.
So the performance imo is more important than putting together a run of ‘wins’ .

The step up against England will have to come ‘because it’s England’ as opposed to being in the ‘groove’ of consistently looking good which Wales haven’t been for a long long time.

I think Wales have looked good defensively and, before today and France (weather?) not bad in attack either. Adams has been a breath of fresh air, LW and GN notorious in their class - but I would still expect a lot more from them against England.

A lot of casual/non-Welsh fans tend to base their opinions of the side on games like this. Which is fair, to a point, but performances against Argentina in the Summer, and the first 20 against SA, and even against Eng and Ire since 2016, show Wales have something about them when they turn up/turn it on.

Just need to see it more consistently from the start to at least near the end. But don't expect that against England - it'll be another game where Wales look to peak around the 60 min mark and then hold England out.

Yeah the performance wasn’t great but it should improve with the reintroduction of some senior players. Around all 30 having had game time now, although it is going to have to go up a few levels if we’re to compete with England, luckily we’re at home and I think this should motivate us a little.

This match reminded me of the tight England victory in Rome due to a charge down. Steve Borthwick gave the worst interview after the match trying to defend the indefensible. Wales were cack, it happens to all sides, but Italy were cacker. They have no direction at 9 or ten and if I was an Italian forward who put a great shift in I would be miffed. For Wales it's not the end of the world and shouldn't beat themselves up. Not sure having a jolly in Nice and 10 changes helped momentum. Regardless of any results in the past the Wales England game is always a leveller as the passion runs high. As an Englishman I will always be nervous when playing the principality as you lot always play better against us.

Wales outplayed England in this fixture 2 years ago but bottled it at several key moments, and then the tide turned in the final 10 minutes. England went on the win the title that year.

Not sure what to expect in a fortnight. Think England might struggle against France - they'll be the aggressor this week, whereas they dominated Ireland when, for the most part, they were playing cautiously on the backfoot. If that England performance was a masterclass of counter punching, shutting down their opponent's big shot, and relentlessly working on them to tire them out, the game against France will be like fighting a big, awkward, slugging southpaw. Expect England to dominate but also be frustrated at times by France's complete lack of structure. I'd expect a performance similar to the game in 2015: England dominant but annoyed that France could improvise a huge blow from nowhere.

We should have a better picture of how Wales will fare against England tomorrow evening. I'd anticipate this game being decided on whether Wales are as clinical as England in this game, as it was 2 years ago. England are ruthless - Wales are not, but will likely be more disciplined defensively and try to control the game with long phase plays. England will, quite obviously, target the air and the lineout. If Wales can't adapt to that that might win the game on its own.

Big test for this Wales team. Again, you have to hope the rested players will come back and shine. About time Parkes put in a really good performance. Could be key up against Tuilagi, Farrell, and Slade.

miaow.

Wales always put up a good fight against England, especialy at home in Cardiff.

I fully expected Wales to run riot today but they did not do so. Yes they may of had a couple of trys disallowed, but Italy made it hard for them and kept in the fight untill the end.

I did expect Wales to get a try bonus point win but like last week i do think they was a bit lucky at times, simply because Italy could not get in the lead.

I know England have still to play France tomorrow but unlike Wales i do expect England to put out there best team against France  and not make 10 changes just because it is RWC year.

Gats overdid the changes and should have had a much more powerful bench but he is playing his last long game trying to prep a huge squad for RWC and, typical Gats, misleading the Welsh public as to his intentions which have always been his own ambitions - just think what Wales might have achieved if he hadn't sodded off twice in the last 10 years.

It was a dire performance by a 2nd and 3rd sting side.

The lineout was a shambles so I expect Dee to drop down the rankings. Beard offers little even if he is a giraffe but nor did Ball who looks off the pace and though I think we need his bulk I favor Hill v England.

Wainwright is one for the future but a potential liability now, Youngs had a good game though and I think he offers more threat than Tipuric so he might contest the 2nd tier until Jenkins comes back

Dillon Lewis looked at home and puts pressure eon Lee as imo Francis now owns the 3 start. Evans and Wynn Jones at 1. Owens and Elias at 2. Hill and AWJ with Ball and Beard as back ups. Tips, Navidi and Moriarty with Young, Wainwright in the back seat until Jenkins/Lydiate/Shingler and Faletau come back into contention

In the backs Aled looks positively lifeless. Lets hope Plan Webb is now fully in action until then its Gareth and Tomos.

The easiest decision for m is bigger. Anscombe is like Priestland, occasional brilliance but actually lacks confidence and is very inconsistent. Biggar the opposite and actually has a kicking game.

I prefer Watkin to Parkes and the back 3 picks itself until Half comes back in and then Liam, Adams and North can fight for the wings with Holmes also a decent 3rd choice back up. Amos is only ever going to be a bit part player as a solid fill in.

My team for Eng

Evans
Owens
Francis
Hill
AWJ
Navidi
Tipuric
Moriarty
Davies
Biggar
North
Watkin
JD2
Adams
Liam

Elais
Wynn
Lewis
Ball
Young
Tomos
Anscombe (barely)
Half or Amos

And dependent on Eng v Fr i se little prospect of Wales dealing with English physicality. QED. a loss.

Whatever about the result, you gotta hand it to Gats on the fitness front. That was one never ending frenetic, scurrying live wire run out from the Welsh boys - Duracell batteries used. The only surprise was that Italy kept their legs in the game to the end and hung in there under such an assault. Wales have to find reasons why such energetic fury doesn't make the inroads on the scoreboard that it always seems to threaten. Definitely a real improvement from Italy who might have been blown away on another night when under such a fizzy Welsh assault.

Dont know how to put a positive spin on this so wont bother.....

Simple... Wales have to beat England, by 1 point if necessary and go on to get a Grand Slam. If not, its England's tournament this year.

Hurts me to say so, but Wales are playing like second tier sides..... That was b!oody awful.....

EnglishReign wrote:Decent Italian kicker and it might've been 22-26. Food for thought.

Fair point. They’d have won then.

Changes like that and a win. When apparently changes were right to make too. Trust the experts on here!!

What ever happend to Italy's 10 Zanny i think his name was? always wore a scrum cap.

He was a good kicker. is he injured? if he had played it might of been a different scoreline.

But Wales won and that is that. no use saying if. but. what is is what is.

RiscaGame wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:Decent Italian kicker and it might've been 22-26. Food for thought.

Fair point. They’d have won then.

Aye and in the same light we might have had the try’s that were disallowed if and if and if again. Food for thought

Line out was very poor, Aled Davis dithered and was slow, Biggar made some unusual howlers with the boot and passing.

It’s a point lost rather than 4 points gained, for me. I’m a glass half empty pessimist on this one!

I am absolutely fuming.

I said at the start of this thread that we made too many changes and we would become a cropper. I said I was not confident in us scoring 4 tries with the side we put out.

Gatland and the WRU need to reimburse all the Welsh fans who payed their money to travel out and watch that rubbish.

People say Wales disrespected Italy by making so many changes, I disagree, Wales disrespected the loyal fans who paid good money to follow that side and support them, it is nothing short of embarrassing.

It will stand wales in good stead for the RWC. Biggar was awesome in my view.

Gotta love Gats though. We'll all miss him- he's been a comedian..... dry but always good for a laugh. And he's at it again with his comment that he hopes Wales are under estimated and go under the radar. ??????
Oh yeah - for sure. Nobody is looking at Wales as a real threat and a real contender. France lost at home. Scotland lost at home. Ireland lost at home. Fortress Millennium! 3rd in the World. One of only two sides still in the running for a Slam and Gats himself verbally on record speaking about winning it.
No - absolutely nobody has their eyes on Wales! Great stuff.

I think we'll get a lot of that over the next 2 weeks. He'll talk England up as the favourites, despite the winning run, despite the rankings and despite home advantage. But Wales will be strong, and much better than they were today.

Wales are 4th in the world rankings, Fly.

Even more reason why nobody is looking at them

Cyril wrote:Wales are 4th in the world rankings, Fly.

I thought the rankings were skewed and not a reliable barometer to gauge a nation, strange now that England are 3rd, the rankings are now relevant again.

They are still slightly skewed. England are better than Ireland, for example.

Wales played ok yesterday. It's just that sometimes their version of Always-in-motion panic-the-enemy rugby sometimes ends up panicking themselves. They sometimes overdo that Rush-Everything philosophy when slowing things down to assess the battlefield might prove more beneficial now and again. Thought Italy handled the frenetic energy of Wales quite well. Every game plan has weaknesses to exploit if you play it long enough..... just ask Ireland

The World Cup is in the Autumn, Cyril. Where were England this time last year? That's right - resting. That's what we're doing now. Well earned rest. It's a busy year ahead. These Irish players have a lot of work ahead of them what with 3 Provinces still fighting in Europe, the Pro14., WC warmups and WC itself! They're busy people, Cyril! Kit Katz for all during 6N I reckon.

maestegmafia wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:Decent Italian kicker and it might've been 22-26. Food for thought.

Fair point. They’d have won then.

Aye and in the same light we might have had the try’s that were disallowed if and if and if again. Food for thought

Line out was very poor, Aled Davis dithered and was slow, Biggar made some unusual howlers with the boot and passing.

No, just that a narrow 4 point win against a team you're used to thumping isn't brilliant.

Don't bring up the tries as a comparison - they weren't tries, whereas any competent kicker would've slotted those Italian kicks with consummate ease.

But if Italy had competent players they would be a different team, bit of an irrelevance.

If Italy were the best side in the world they'd be the ABs ...... now no more of this nonsense!

Blinkin' hell

SecretFly wrote:If Italy were the best side in the world they'd be the ABs ...... now no more of this nonsense!

My thoughts exactly..!

Only 38,000 at the game is a bit of a worry and two thirds of that were Welsh fans. Pressure is mounting on the Azzuri.

You think? I think France might pick up the wooden spoon. And France is worse because they have all the teams, money and players that England can call on and yet seem to seasonally raise the middle finger to the 6N. Are they genuinely making an effort to add to the competition or are they just going through the motions, waiting to get back to their big fee side uninjured? Jury is out but at least Italy seem to be trying with their scant resources. A lot of 'no fuss' smiles on the faces of some French players at the weekend.