England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

First topic message reminder :

Mirroring the thread I did for Wales, England have had huge strength in depth for the last 9 years or so. Under Lancaster it seemed to be a hindrance as much as a strength, with no-one really leaping out to claim key positions, cycling through the likes of Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt etc. in the centre.

Now, it feels like England do have some real test quality players who have grabbed shirts with both hands and are nailed on: the Vunipolas, Tuilagi, Lawes, and latterly players like May, Curry, and Underhill.

With that in mind...who makes England's 31 man squad based on who's fit and available (as well as who's out injured)? If you want to include who you'd personally pick as well that'd be interesting, but who do England fans think will be in that squad in Japan?

Also, who is in the starting 23 and who are the 6-7 reserve players who stand a good chance of a call up?

I've done it for Wales in the Wales thread - think it's looking very settled, with a few first 15 positions up for debate depending on opposition. From the outside England's squad looks a lot less settled or certain.

Squads ten to be:

17-18 forwards
5 Props
2 or 3 Hookers
5 Second rows
5 or 6 Back rowers

13-14 Backs
3 Scrum-halves
2-3 Fly-halves
3 Centres
5 Back 3

So who/what is the current England squad?

On any given day a team can beat another. Looking over the last few we've clearly got a better team and squad than Wales.

Sharkey06 wrote:I don't think there is a question mark over England's squad depth, the question would be how many of our players would be first choice in a combined England Wales team.  Based on the last 6 Nations game I think Wales would certainly have the lions share.  We seem to lack truly top class individuals and the Welsh players seem to perform better/hit the game plan better than England players are able to do.

I appreciate that you are going to have injuries and need a squad to cover the number of games you need to play to win a world cup, but even with lots of injuries Wales were too good for England at world cup 2015.  Having squad depth/strength is all well and fine, but won't ultimately help if you 15 on the park aren't good enough to win.

Obviously not coming at this as a neutral but wholeheartedly agree. So many people on this board took issue with this 'combined team' notion but, in reality, man for man, Wales would definitely have more than 50%. Even players like Gareth Davies, who's deeply flawed - he's like a significantly better version of Danny Care in that he's a wonderful attacker but prone to some fundamental errors and has some issues with game management. Gareth Davies outplayed Youngs massively in the England Wales game, but Youngs kicked better than Care. How do you make that distinction between the two? It's not easy...but too many of England's players are Youngs-esque: decent test level players who can sometimes spring in to life, but too often appear lacking. There's a case to be made that Biggar's better than Farrell, to be honest. I'd call them dead equal to be honest: similar with a few different strengths. A good thread for anyone wanting to revisit the pre-match confidence of certain English posters with regards to a combined team: https://www.606v2.com/t68441-wales-v-england-thread-6-nations

You don't need too many of these standout players. Ashton's one. Tuilagi's one. Cokanasiga looks like he's definitely going to be one. May can be one, as can Watson...but they've never really done it consistently. Joseph did do it but now doesn't fit the style England want to play. Slade looks to me like he has the potential but the RWC is probably 18 months too soon for him. So lots of backs with the potential.

In the forwards, Mako is the only standout. Billy's decent but he has his flaws that still go unspoken. He's really not very effective in test matches after the first 30 minutes with any sort of consistency. After an hour and he has to be really selective in what he does around the field as he's just so...big boned, shall we say. All the players that look like they do have a spark - George, Sinckler, maybe Genge, Itoje etc - have gone missing at key times. And that's the issue for England and why, if you were to pick a 'Lions' team based on the four teams' players going in to the RWC, the flashier players (as opposed to the steadier Farrells, Youngs, and Robshaws of the team) don't comparve too favourably to the Irish/Scottish/Welsh players.

And yet more consistent than Wales.

This is a thread about England, not Wales, and the discussion was about quality of personnel, but good luck trying to claim England are more consistent than the team currently on a 14 match winning streak...

Yet we are. Go figure. Always good to look comparatively at squads and look to those key indicators you pointed out in this thread miaow. New caps et al. But overall you're happy with Wales the majority of England fans are happy with our potential squad so all good. Inevitably yes there 'll be good players left on these shores from both sides. England stand a great chance of bringing the cup back.

Of course you can think that. It's naive/blinkered, but you can still think it if you want.

https://www.606v2.com/t68441p100-wales-v-england-thread-6-nations

Give that 3rd page a read. Can't get more correct than what I've written there.

England will only win the RWC if they keep Tuilagi fit. He's that important.

He's a great player I agree. We do have the luxury of him Te'o, slade, joseph, Farrell and I think Daly may well slot in there should Watson be back at 15. Great choices to have.

I'd rate England's World Cup chances about 12.5%, using very rough maths. 100% chance of qualifying from the group given the state of France and Argentina, then 50% chance against any of the top 8 in a one-off game. Obviously 100% chance of qualifying is rounded up. Also some of the top 8 I'd be more confident than 50%, others possibly less so, but I think that's quite a good starting point before you start tweaking for who we are more likely to play etc.

Which means England are perfectly capable of winning the World Cup, but you couldn't call it likely at this stage. Which I think perhaps everyone could agree on?

I'd like to think players like George, Sinckler and Slade are that much stronger for having a chance to be the main guys for a few series now and hopefully they can continue to grow into their roles.

I think England will need quite a bit of luck with injuries - Mako, Itoje, Billy, Youngs, Farrell and Manu are the first names that spring to mind here. You think you could cope without any one of these, but if you start to lose 2 or 3 of them then we may struggle - as we did when Billy and Youngs went off against Wales in 2015. If nothing else, you're losing leaders when you start to lose those players, even if players like Genge, Launchbury, Hughes, Spencer, Ford and Te'o would make perfectly acceptable international players.

But then you'd say it was the same with any team. You lose your key, experienced players and you're going to struggle, no matter how good the backup is. Again, looking at 2015 Wales had a nightmare in terms of injuries to the outside backs, but 8/9/10 was unaffected and Jenkins, Jones and Warburton stayed on in the pack, which I'm sure helped settle everything down on the pitch and pull the team through.

Not even making a joke, but England should be wary of counting their chickens with the France and Argentina games coming back to back. If you've lost Farrell or Youngs to injury pre-tournament/before those 2 games you're in trouble. Add the all-too-frequent collapses and the fact Argentina are a tidy team who focus on RWCs, and France are a mess of a team who find mutinous focus at RWCs, they could be in for two tough games. Likelihood is they top the group but 100%? Remember 2015? Home turf? Pre-tournament many would have been saying similar with regards to beating Wales, I'm sure.

It's definitely the same for other teams, yet other teams don't seem to have both the massive boom to bust approach England are having, nor do they have such paucity of established test players waiting to step in. That's why it's such an issue/so confusing from the outside. There's still the same weaknesses from the Lancaster era (those go way deeper than just his tenure/English rugby, it's a NH/British sport thing all the way up as well) as well as the deep flaws EJ has brought, which is tactical naivety at times, inflexibility, and of course overconfidence coming from the first 2 years.

I think this specific point for England is about quality and depth. Looking back at that link I posted, and the discussion of the combined Wales/England team on the matchthread, and there's definitely still a sense that because England have 'more' players at a similar level, they're better. Someone picked up the fact that I said North was better than Ashton and Nowell as an issue - but it's not, he is better than both...the issue is you can't pick all these similar-level players all at once. It's simply a case of either/or, yes/no - are they better or not? And in that thread people were suggesting Daly was as good as Liam Williams, Slade as good/better than JD2 etc. Ignoring the point about fairweather hopeful analysis, the point is England don't have enough players like Tuilagi: Te'o is really average, a poor man's Bundee Aki. Launchbury's decent but a bit of a plodder who can get found out when on the back foot/the tempo lifts - look at his performance against Scotland last year. Nathan Hughes has looked powderpuff until this season but still not particularly impressive. Spencer? Who knows. Ford's got talent but has also been 'got at' a few too many times at test level. Genge looks alright but the Welsh scrum had an enjoyable day against him (and Moon).

Tuilagi is the player - he's the player the All Blacks would fear if England were firing because he can do what he does to a level most test players cannot. He's rare in his abilities. You could say the same for Mako (but still not convinced at the scrum, once a weakness always a weakness in my opinion) and maybe Billy as well (said why he has issues). Itoje on form definitely fits that category but that hasn't happened consistently since his first season: 2 years' time and I'd expect him to be really coming in to his own as a test player, having learnt to cut down on mistakes (if Gatland goes to England you can guarantee he'll make Itoje world class). But then that's it. Jonny May's pace makes him special but as a player I don't think he holds any fear for the opposition unless there's an outside break/he's in behind the line. I'd put him on a par with Ashton - doesn't have May's pace but he has a finishing instinct no other English player does and he's done it for years at test level.

When you compare to the other teams, they've all got similar sort of numbers of those kinds of players. Maybe Scotland the odd one out with a few less. You can't 'add up' all those good, solid, decent international players and make one good player who can usurp the likes of Hogg, Furlong, and Tipuric. And generally, England don't - when they've looked good it's been a team annihilation based on physicality, running options, and speed of ball. But tactics are for another discussion...

Utterly one-eyed as usual miaow. We’re all fans and see our players through our own perceptions, but you are something again. One would think Wales had won back to back World Cups the way you talk.

We will continue to think England have a good chance (and, as usual the best one) from the NH while you talk up Wales. Good luck!

Are you grey ghost? Surely no Welsh fan would represent their ‘country’ this poorly?

I don't know know I'm coming round to his thinking. If any team are picking uncapped.players now for instance they're in serious trouble for the world cup.

Ha, let’s hope there are no double standards in his reviews then. No doubt it will be a master stroke, bringing in fresh blood rather than desperation if other sides do it.

miaow wrote:Not even making a joke, but England should be wary of counting their chickens with the France and Argentina games coming back to back. If you've lost Farrell or Youngs to injury pre-tournament/before those 2 games you're in trouble. Add the all-too-frequent collapses and the fact Argentina are a tidy team who focus on RWCs, and France are a mess of a team who find mutinous focus at RWCs, they could be in for two tough games. Likelihood is they top the group but 100%? Remember 2015? Home turf? Pre-tournament many would have been saying similar with regards to beating Wales, I'm sure.

It's definitely the same for other teams, yet other teams don't seem to have both the massive boom to bust approach England are having, nor do they have such paucity of established test players waiting to step in. That's why it's such an issue/so confusing from the outside. There's still the same weaknesses from the Lancaster era (those go way deeper than just his tenure/English rugby, it's a NH/British sport thing all the way up as well) as well as the deep flaws EJ has brought, which is tactical naivety at times, inflexibility, and of course overconfidence coming from the first 2 years.

I think this specific point for England is about quality and depth. Looking back at that link I posted, and the discussion of the combined Wales/England team on the matchthread, and there's definitely still a sense that because England have 'more' players at a similar level, they're better. Someone picked up the fact that I said North was better than Ashton and Nowell as an issue - but it's not, he is better than both...the issue is you can't pick all these similar-level players all at once. It's simply a case of either/or, yes/no - are they better or not? And in that thread people were suggesting Daly was as good as Liam Williams, Slade as good/better than JD2 etc. Ignoring the point about fairweather hopeful analysis, the point is England don't have enough players like Tuilagi: Te'o is really average, a poor man's Bundee Aki. Launchbury's decent but a bit of a plodder who can get found out when on the back foot/the tempo lifts - look at his performance against Scotland last year. Nathan Hughes has looked powderpuff until this season but still not particularly impressive. Spencer? Who knows. Ford's got talent but has also been 'got at' a few too many times at test level. Genge looks alright but the Welsh scrum had an enjoyable day against him (and Moon).

Tuilagi is the player - he's the player the All Blacks would fear if England were firing because he can do what he does to a level most test players cannot. He's rare in his abilities. You could say the same for Mako (but still not convinced at the scrum, once a weakness always a weakness in my opinion) and maybe Billy as well (said why he has issues). Itoje on form definitely fits that category but that hasn't happened consistently since his first season: 2 years' time and I'd expect him to be really coming in to his own as a test player, having learnt to cut down on mistakes (if Gatland goes to England you can guarantee he'll make Itoje world class). But then that's it. Jonny May's pace makes him special but as a player I don't think he holds any fear for the opposition unless there's an outside break/he's in behind the line. I'd put him on a par with Ashton - doesn't have May's pace but he has a finishing instinct no other English player does and he's done it for years at test level.

When you compare to the other teams, they've all got similar sort of numbers of those kinds of players. Maybe Scotland the odd one out with a few less. You can't 'add up' all those good, solid, decent international players and make one good player who can usurp the likes of Hogg, Furlong, and Tipuric. And generally, England don't - when they've looked good it's been a team annihilation based on physicality, running options, and speed of ball. But tactics are for another discussion...

Geez, not sure where to start with all that... so I won’t...

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't know know I'm coming round to his thinking. If any team are picking uncapped.players now for instance they're in serious trouble for the world cup.

England have capped players for the first time in the August warms ups before the last two world cups. In 2011 they also took Simpson who was uncapped. 2007 the squad had 5 players with 5 or less caps, Hipkiss and Abendanon having made debuts in the August warm ups the others in the 6 nations. 2003 squad had Stuart Abbot with 2 caps, having debuted in the August warm ups ( and despite being rubbish played in 3 world cup matches), I dont think they were in serious trouble that year.


I CBA to check other teams, but its not that unusual especially given the rate of injuries and suspensions these days (yeah why 4 warm ups?).


In other news...Tuillagi (one of them) is injured, again. Should be fit for the warm ups but his brittleness is a concern still.

Just a response to an earlier point Gooseberry.

Cyril wrote:Utterly one-eyed as usual miaow. We’re all fans and see our players through our own perceptions, but you are something again. One would think Wales had won back to back World Cups the way you talk.

I'm just going to select a few quotes from that England v Wales matchthread, Cyril. Just to...you know...see how they stand up.

Cyril wrote:  

Cyril wrote: Miaow, this year it’s not about just being ‘hammered up front’ by England. It’s about being taken apart by an incredibly quick, accurate and deadly attack. Wales (and Ireland and France) are ponderous and out-dated in comparison.

I don’t think Wales have the players, tactics, speed of thought or range of skills to cope. I don’t think you do either, despite the bluffing and the claim that few English players would get in a joint squad. Fairly laughable, to be honest.

Interesting start...

Cyril wrote: I’d put pretty much any English back (or forward for that matter) against his Wales counterpart skills-wise. JD2 chucking a 20 yard pass when a simple inside would have put a two on one sums him up. A reminder of the number of passes he put into touch for both the Lions and Wales. A strong player and a decent international, but Slade (just getting to grips with international rugby) is already surpassing him.

May is the form winger in the NH and probably up there in the world. North’s career has been a little disappointing after his stellar start.

Ooff...embarrassing stuff. Whereas...

[quote=miaow"]Also should've included Liam Williams against the other English wingers as he's as likely to play there as he is 15. Could see a case for picking May ahead of him - but LW has a far superior skillset than any winger England could pick. Will be one of the best players on the pitch in a fortnight. [/quote]

Cyril wrote:I’d put pretty much any English back (or forward for that matter) against his Wales counterpart skills-wise. JD2 chucking a 20 yard pass when a simple inside would have put a two on one sums him up. A reminder of the number of passes he put into touch for both the Lions and Wales. A strong player and a decent international, but Slade (just getting to grips with international rugby) is already surpassing him.

May is the form winger in the NH and probably up there in the world. North’s career has been a little disappointing after his stellar start.

You have the nerve to call me biased? Noooooo...no no no.


All of that is just on page 3 of that thread. Page 3! I'm sure if I went through the rest of it there would be more than enough there that's embarrassing reading for you (as well as a few other posters).

There's far too much talk of Wales on what should be an England thread simply because I'm pointing out what are (fairly clear) weaknesses in England's team, players, coaches, and wider set-up. Because I'm Welsh, the knee jerk reaction is to attack me/Wales. It adds nothing. If you want to compare players/teams then that's fine - it's what I'm trying to do when talking about the likes of Finn Russell, Stockdale, and North etc.

One final point on the uncapped thing. Wales went to 2011 with lots of very inexperienced players. Think Faletau won his first cap v the Barbarians in the warm ups. But a number of them - Ken, Scott Williams, Lydiate, even North - had been capped within the final 18 months of the RWC cycle. 2010/11 was Wales' worst under Gatland, they looked completely out of it and I think everyone was waiting for the RWC to be over (plenty were expecting Samoa to knock us out of the group, and I feared it as well) and for Gatland to be moved on. Obviously, Wales did very, very well with their uncapped/inexperienced players, because - and this is the crucial point here - the likes of Faletau, Warburton, JD2 were infinitely better than the more experienced alternatives which, at that time, were Andy Powell, a retiring Martyn Williams, and a retired Tom Shanklin. But, despite playing so well, they lost to SA and France when they really ought to have won. That mindset required to win those games - as well as the actual test match ability - is aided hugely by experience and playing in those games. It's a shame we've lost Warburton in that regard as he was an animal in stepping up when it mattered. So eventhough Wales did very well with uncapped/inexperienced players in 2011...they could have done a lot better.

Relating that back to England, I don't see England's inexperienced players as coming close to the likes of Warburton, Faletau etc. Only Cokanasiga and perhaps Curry would come under that category but the issue with that is the rest of the team is still up for grabs in many ways.

Polite to inform people why posts are removed I always find. I'll reword.

Cyril - Please debate posts not posters

I suspect that 50% of the words typed on this board are by one person, the rhetoric is always the same. I have got to the stage of just skipping any thread that starts to get dominated by this poster, which leaves very few to look at. The continued presence of this poster is detrimental to the site as a whole, but especially the rugby board.

How he/she finds the time to produce the long, windy, partisan but often researched (usually objectively biased), I do not know. What I do know is that it turns others away from the boards, the number of regular posters are decreasing and how many new posters have we seen in recent times, very few.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I suspect that 50% of the words typed on this board are by one person, the rhetoric is always the same. I have got to the stage of just skipping any thread that starts to get dominated by this poster, which leaves very few to look at. The continued presence of this poster is detrimental to the site as a whole, but especially the rugby board.

How he/she finds the time to produce the long, windy, partisan but often researched (usually objectively biased), I do not know. What I do know is that it turns others away from the boards, the number of regular posters are decreasing and how many new posters have we seen in recent times, very few.

You're wrong. If anything, I've helped bring life back on to this board in the last few months. Posters leaving has had little to do with me. Whatever issue you have is your own, frankly.

The extended RWC training squad will be interesting for England.

I'd say the below is fairly nailed on with Hartley, Robshaw, Joseph and Watson likely to be involved again if fit. Hartley is a big question mark currently of course.

1.Vunipola, Moon, Genge
2.George, Hartley, Cowan-Dickie
3.Sinckler, Williams, Cole
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kruis
6.Wilson, Robshaw, Shields
7.Curry, Underhill
8.Vunipola, Hughes

9.Youngs
10.Ford, Farrell

11.May, Watson
12.Tuilagi, Te'o
13.Slade, Joseph
14.Nowell, Cokanasiga
15.Daly, Brown

On top of that there will at least be:

A 5th second row
Isiekwe or Ewels seem front runners there.

Back row competition
Jack Clifford, Zach Mercer, Ted Hill and Ben Earl have been involved in squads before.

Reserve scrum halves
There will be at least 3 in the training squads so Robson, Care, Spencer and Wigglesworth will all be in competition for at least 2 places.

Midfield depth
Cipriani could make the squad but will Farrell be viewed as 12 cover still? Devoto was in the 6 Nations training squads. Outside centre is in a good place with Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi and Daly able to cover.

Back three depth
Ashton has covered both wing and fullback recently so could be a good bet. Jones seems to like Solomona but Cokanasiga may have claimed that berth as a winger who offers a bit more power. Ollie Thorley was in the 6 Nations training squads.

Jack Singleton is the only 6 Nations squad member I haven't mentioned there but he will be front runner to come into the squad if Hartley isn't fit.

miaow wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I suspect that 50% of the words typed on this board are by one person, the rhetoric is always the same. I have got to the stage of just skipping any thread that starts to get dominated by this poster, which leaves very few to look at. The continued presence of this poster is detrimental to the site as a whole, but especially the rugby board.

How he/she finds the time to produce the long, windy, partisan but often researched (usually objectively biased), I do not know. What I do know is that it turns others away from the boards, the number of regular posters are decreasing and how many new posters have we seen in recent times, very few.

You're wrong. If anything, I've helped bring life back on to this board in the last few months. Posters leaving has had little to do with me. Whatever issue you have is your own, frankly.

We are all entitled to our own opinions.

Only if it agrees with mine.


Or God's, as she can be pretty stroppy.

Personally im another that struggles to want to post when hea posting all over threads. Its just exhausting going through his long rambling posts and trying to find anything interesting. Thats when threads arent derailed completely.

Good old miaow, bringing life to the forums by forcing posters to admit they can't be bothered to read his guff. All helps the post count

BamBam wrote:Good old miaow, bringing life to the forums by forcing posters to admit they can't be bothered to read his guff. All helps the post count

I skip over it all. Far too much text. God knows where they find the time to write it all. If someone can't get their idea across succinctly, I don't think it is worth reading.

If this is what 'bringing life into the forum' looks like, I prefer it to be dead.

You're neatly proving the point that no-one contributes rugby stuff on here. I do. I also get the 'guff' from posters like you who'd rather inform everyone they don't read my posts than actually talk about rugby. Seems pretty clear who adds the most value but there we go - not something I care about until you feel the need to comment like you do.

Get back on to the topic?

I'd rather actually do the job that I'm paid to do than read your guff, and that's saying something

The only word I can think of at the moment is delusional.

I'm not going to continue this as the mods don't need the hassle but congratulations for adding to the downfall of this site.

king_carlos wrote:The extended RWC training squad will be interesting for England.

I'd say the below is fairly nailed on with Hartley, Robshaw, Joseph and Watson likely to be involved again if fit. Hartley is a big question mark currently of course.

1.Vunipola, Moon, Genge
2.George, Hartley, Cowan-Dickie
3.Sinckler, Williams, Cole
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kruis
6.Wilson, Robshaw, Shields
7.Curry, Underhill
8.Vunipola, Hughes

9.Youngs
10.Ford, Farrell

11.May, Watson
12.Tuilagi, Te'o
13.Slade, Joseph
14.Nowell, Cokanasiga
15.Daly, Brown

On top of that there will at least be:

A 5th second row
Isiekwe or Ewels seem front runners there.

Back row competition
Jack Clifford, Zach Mercer, Ted Hill and Ben Earl have been involved in squads before.

Reserve scrum halves
There will be at least 3 in the training squads so Robson, Care, Spencer and Wigglesworth will all be in competition for at least 2 places.

Midfield depth
Cipriani could make the squad but will Farrell be viewed as 12 cover still? Devoto was in the 6 Nations training squads. Outside centre is in a good place with Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi and Daly able to cover.

Back three depth
Ashton has covered both wing and fullback recently so could be a good bet. Jones seems to like Solomona but Cokanasiga may have claimed that berth as a winger who offers a bit more power. Ollie Thorley was in the 6 Nations training squads.

Jack Singleton is the only 6 Nations squad member I haven't mentioned there but he will be front runner to come into the squad if Hartley isn't fit.

Much depends upon the size of the training squad. I think you have listed 33 players. It could rise much closer to 50. Are we playing the Barbarians this year? Squad for that could be interesting if so.

Anyone know when it is announced?

miaow wrote:You're neatly proving the point that no-one contributes rugby stuff on here. I do. I also get the 'guff' from posters like you who'd rather inform everyone they don't read my posts than actually talk about rugby. Seems pretty clear who adds the most value but there we go - not something I care about until you feel the need to comment like you do.

Get back on to the topic?

This is actually the first time we have interacted Miaow so unsure who your comment was aimed at.

Believe it or not, there was a lot of constructive conversation on here prior to you arriving, and there will be once you inevitably get bored and leave.


From LT:
This message has obviously been reported. Frankly the post it quotes and several more are not that dissimilar. Not specifically referencing this or the quoted post,and perhaps sitting on the fence here, but just to make a general point - there will always be some "banter" but could I ask:


1) Could people try to be a little less thin skinned
2) Could people please try  to avoid getting overly personal.
3) Remember that people disagreeing with you does not mean they are wumming, are stupid, or calling you stupid (though we have seen a rise in namecalling)


Thanks for listening

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:The extended RWC training squad will be interesting for England.

I'd say the below is fairly nailed on with Hartley, Robshaw, Joseph and Watson likely to be involved again if fit. Hartley is a big question mark currently of course.

1.Vunipola, Moon, Genge
2.George, Hartley, Cowan-Dickie
3.Sinckler, Williams, Cole
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kruis
6.Wilson, Robshaw, Shields
7.Curry, Underhill
8.Vunipola, Hughes

9.Youngs
10.Ford, Farrell

11.May, Watson
12.Tuilagi, Te'o
13.Slade, Joseph
14.Nowell, Cokanasiga
15.Daly, Brown

On top of that there will at least be:

A 5th second row
Isiekwe or Ewels seem front runners there.

Back row competition
Jack Clifford, Zach Mercer, Ted Hill and Ben Earl have been involved in squads before.

Reserve scrum halves
There will be at least 3 in the training squads so Robson, Care, Spencer and Wigglesworth will all be in competition for at least 2 places.

Midfield depth
Cipriani could make the squad but will Farrell be viewed as 12 cover still? Devoto was in the 6 Nations training squads. Outside centre is in a good place with Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi and Daly able to cover.

Back three depth
Ashton has covered both wing and fullback recently so could be a good bet. Jones seems to like Solomona but Cokanasiga may have claimed that berth as a winger who offers a bit more power. Ollie Thorley was in the 6 Nations training squads.

Jack Singleton is the only 6 Nations squad member I haven't mentioned there but he will be front runner to come into the squad if Hartley isn't fit.

Much depends upon the size of the training squad. I think you have listed 33 players. It could rise much closer to 50. Are we playing the Barbarians this year? Squad for that could be interesting if so.

Anyone know when it is announced?

It's certainly going to be a difficult decision for EJ and co cutting the squad from 50 odd to 33. I imagine the hardest part will be deciding the midfield options now that Joseph is back and playing well. I just don't feel that Te'o justifies his place in the squad at all, but that hasn't stopped him being selected in the past. Devoto is playing very well and could be a bolter as he's been in and around the squad before. I guess a lot of it comes down to Tuilagi's hamstring at the moment.

Only 31 for the actual squad.

Currently out injured include Manu as you say, plus Robson, Youngs, Hartley, Thorley +......... help needed.

Think that's it currently. A number are Just back.

I don't think it will be that difficult to cut the squad to 31. Most of the big decisions will be made by injury or form. There might be a handful of tricky decisions about fringe players. The back row needs some tough calls if injury doesn't decide it. Other than that, I think I could probably write down 27-28 of the squad now and not be far wrong. Carlos's stab looks pretty close to me, once you knock out the fringe players and add Care back in.

I think we need the young pretenders at 6 to really come good post world cup.

I would say England's biggest challenge now - the 10 debate aside - is that twith so little time (and with Manu touch and go again) is not quality or strength in depth which we all know is strong, but making firm and consistent decisions on their best 23 and sticking with it.

Same with any international side, Pie. For example, Wales tend to stick with the tried and tested for ages and then panic and throw a few in. Injuries play a part too.

Cyril wrote:Same with any international side, Pie. For example, Wales tend to stick with the tried and tested for ages and then panic and throw a few in. Injuries play a part too.

Not so and i'm surprised you dont understand England's dilemma better.

And shame you had to bring up Wales, especially because you are very wrong so I'll put you straight.

Wales, while beating England with a scrum half on the wing in RWC 2015 realized just how shocking their strength in depth was and have had a measured approach to bringing on new talent since then, with last years Argie tour an opportunity for new players to be given the opportunity while leaving known quantities out of it. Thats has borne fruit with a comfortable Slam, 2nd in the World and solid chance at RWC

We now hav 3, 4 5 quality players able to step up in almost every position, in the back row it is  ridiculous with the likes of Faletau and Lydiate barely missed.....but there is a clear hierarchy now and a clear 23-27 players on the plane to RWC....with the ability amongst that group to provide cover within cadres e.g. back 3, back 5, etc. In addition to that, a clear style has evolved based on a superior fitness based defense that is almost inpenetrable and clinical finishing of the few opportunities we get up front. Wales, formerly the side of catchup rugby and offload, now back themselves on ball retention, ball in play and recycling through numerous phases. They have a pair of 10s who actually have an equation that works to close games out.

England aren't there. Yet again we were talked up into a frenzy about how they would win the 6 Nations but came nowhere near it and really let themselves down. They have talent galore but even though I follow them closely I still don't see any method to selection. Its new broom stuff week in week out and Jones is trying to fit 23 players into 15 shirts never really knowing what works best and where...Manu being slotted back in straight off illustrates it perfectly. And the debate over 10 illustrates that more than anything...even his choice of skipper is now questionable and not just due to temperament. Farrell is no skipper; ffs Eng need a forward as skipper but we don't even think Hartley is 1st choice...is he isn't he...maybe Robshaw will come back maybe this maybe that...and then lets deal with 10. Is it Ford...he was preeminent and has now been found out on the gainline and defensively, is it Farrell....he is a loose cannon...no its a plane with Cipriani on it lol. And then there's the headshot pair of props the will almost certainly not have matured enough by the time RWC comes around, or else aren't intelligent enough to get it and play into the hands of other sides.

No side has the riches Eng does and the obvious lack of a clear plan as to how best to employ them

Solve that, pick 23 players and stick to it and you have a chance at RWC but I expect England won't know who their best team even as they are being pushed by Argentina and France, two sides who know how to qualify for the 1/4s. I expect Argentina and to beat England and France to make it very very tight.

Lastly ,I'm a Welsh fan and criticized England QED, I MUST be a troll, there's a place in hell for a guy like that  

Seriously why do posts keep disappearing without comment?

Ah. Makes sense now.
I've had my mind changed due to the succinct points above. Any team picking debutants and guys under 20 caps have no hope for the world cup. Anyone unsure about their fly half and full back in even more trouble. Tough world cup for that team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah. Makes sense now.
I've had my mind changed due to the succinct points above. Any team picking debutants and guys under 20 caps have no hope for the world cup. Anyone unsure about their fly half and full back in even more trouble. Tough world cup for that team.

Pie wrote:...even his choice of skipper is now questionable and not just due to temperament. Farrell is no skipper; ffs

Is Farrell really the captain? It’s hard to believe isn’t it. Who else do they have?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think that's it currently. A number are Just back.

Launchbury has been injured for a while, but according to Eggchasers he is primed and ready to return for the final few games

bluestonevedder wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think that's it currently. A number are Just back.

Launchbury has been injured for a while, but according to Eggchasers he is primed and ready to return for the final few games

Gatland spoke during the Six Nations Championship, possibly prior to Wales vs England about Mako Vunipola’s leadership qualities. Rates him very highly after coaching him on two lions tours, like Launchbury he could be a great contender

For what, captain post world cup? Depends on who the coach is come that time but I'd expect them to keep Farrell or look to a younger guy tbh.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah. Makes sense now.
I've had my mind changed due to the succinct points above. Any team picking debutants and guys under 20 caps have no hope for the world cup. Anyone unsure about their fly half and full back in even more trouble. Tough world cup for that team.

"You tried so haaaaaaaaaaarrrrrdddddd and got so faaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, but in the eeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnddddddddddddd your WUM didn't wooooooorrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkk".

After picking up how integral scoring a try has been for England in the first 3-5 minutes of a test match under EJ, I'm now thinking that it might be worth looking at the first half-hour as a whole. On the whole, England are the epitome of a top heavy side - big, bulky, blowing out their   s by 60 minutes, and also go for points early on to try and hold out a lead and force the opposition in to overplaying.

You have to wonder if EJ is working on a way of avoiding this: you can guarantee, as happened in this 6Ns and the AIs, that when they're playing a properly prepared team, they're inevitably not going to win every game by blowing them away in the first 20 minutes. In my opinion, England would be better off going for the 'finishers'-style bench again, with impact players like Sinckler and George - who look far less effective starting - coming off the bench.

Eh? I'm just agreeing that swapping fly half s and full backs. Having these guys on less than 20 caps shows a real weakness in depth. You've convinced me. Any team doing that ain't going to win the world cup. We can't all have all time greats in all positions. Such is life.