Rules question

This question comes about after Casey and McIlroy both hit their balls into the deep rough. In their cases the bald were found and they played on. Let’s imagine a slightly different scenario. Pro player at a tournament hits a ball off line into the deep rough. He plays a provisional which is a fantastic shot which he would prefer to play. Now I believe if his fellow competitors find his ball before he plays his provisional then he has to play the original ball. But can anyone else officially “find” his ball to make him play it? Marshall’s or spectators? Do they count?

Yes, if anyone finds it then they have to play the 1st ball.

I have on at least a couple of occasions said to my playing partners, don’t look!! Also, not sure if it’s still a thing but if you bang one into the waist high then reload without saying provisional ball, then that is the ball in play. How does that work if somebody does find the original??

I would agree with you JAS, that if you don't say "Provisional" or words to that effect, then your next strike will be with the ball in play. If someone then goes and finds your "first" ball, then all you have done, to my mind, is found it. It's not the ball in play. I once read a book explaining the rules by Tom Watson. He mentioned a scenario of your fellow competitor running up the hole after you have hit a provisional, trying to find your first ball before your provisional became the ball in play, just because it was in such a bad position. Who could get to the ball the fastest. Don't know whether that is still current.

JAS wrote:I have on at least a couple of occasions said to my playing partners, don’t look!! Also, not sure if it’s still a thing but if you bang one into the waist high then reload without saying provisional ball, then that is the ball in play. How does that work if somebody does find the original??

This is still correct, if you don't declare that it's a provisional ball then it automatically becomes the ball in play once hit, whether the original ball is found or not.

I'm never wrong wrote:I would agree with you JAS, that if you don't say "Provisional" or words to that effect, then your next strike will be with the ball in play. If someone then goes and finds your "first" ball, then all you have done, to my mind, is found it. It's not the ball in play. I once read a book explaining the rules by Tom Watson. He mentioned a scenario of your fellow competitor running up the hole after you have hit a provisional, trying to find your first ball before your provisional became the ball in play, just because it was in such a bad position. Who could get to the ball the fastest. Don't know whether that is still current.

That is still current, it especially applies in Matchplay if your opponent's provisional ball is in a good position and, if found, proceeding with the original ball will be disadvantageous for them. There's an argument about "protecting the rest of the field" in Strokeplay but it is more of an issue in a direct Matchplay game.

I think everyone correct here .the word provisional must be uttered no good saying'ill play another'and then finding the first one

You don't HAVE to use the word provisional. But it is clearest way of announcing it.

18.3b/2


Statements That “Clearly Indicate” That a Provisional Ball Is Being Played


When playing a provisional ball, it is best if the player uses the word "provisional" in his or her announcement. However, other statements that make it clear that the player's intent is to play a provisional ball are acceptable.

Examples of announcements that clearly indicate the player is playing a provisional ball include:
•"I'm playing a ball under Rule 18.3".
•"I'm going to play another just in case".

Examples of announcements that do not clearly indicate the player is playing a provisional ball and mean that the player would be putting a ball into play under stroke and distance include:
•"I'm going to re-load".
•"I'm going to play another".

So please clarify if your are off the green putting from the very short fringe can you remove a piece of debris on your line on the green .Only asking cos Lowry just did that on 11th

dynamark wrote:So please clarify if your are off the green putting from the very short fringe can you remove a piece of debris on your line on the green .Only asking cos Lowry just did that on 11th

Yes

Not if the "debris" is sand.

George1507 wrote:Not if the "debris" is sand.

Lowry thought "debris" was a French cheese.

super_realist wrote:

George1507 wrote:Not if the "debris" is sand.

Lowry thought "debris" was a French cheese.

Reminds me of the old (OK, ancient) Smirnoff ads - I've a feeling George remembers . . . . . . . . (but then I thought a 1507 was a computer).

My eyes were not good enough to tell if it was sand.

George1507 wrote:Not if the "debris" is sand.

Don't think that's right see Rule 13.1c

Improvements Allowed on Putting Green

"During a round ....no matter whether your ball is on or off the putting green:

Sand and loose soil on the putting green....may be removed without penalty."

ralphjohn69 wrote:

dynamark wrote:So please clarify if your are off the green putting from the very short fringe can you remove a piece of debris on your line on the green .Only asking cos Lowry just did that on 11th

Yes

The question asked about moving debris when OFF the green. Generally it's ok to move stuff when off the green provided it isn't growing, or attached, or sand. When you aren't on the green, sand on grass is an integral part of the course and you can't move it. You see golfers moving sand off their line when off the green every day, especially between bunkers and green.

The rule is don't mess with George on the rules !!
Best thing to adopt is play it as is until you hit the putting green then you can think about the rules.

George1507 wrote:

ralphjohn69 wrote:

dynamark wrote:So please clarify if your are off the green putting from the very short fringe can you remove a piece of debris on your line on the green .Only asking cos Lowry just did that on 11th

Yes

The question asked about moving debris when OFF the green. Generally it's ok to move stuff when off the green provided it isn't growing, or attached, or sand. When you aren't on the green, sand on grass is an integral part of the course and you can't move it. You see golfers moving sand off their line when off the green every day, especially between bunkers and green.

No it didn't, the question was very clearly "if your are OFF the green putting from the very short fringe can you remove a piece of debris on your line ON the green", which you obviously can. You're right on the rule when off the green and the sand is also off the green but that's not what the question asked.

Apologies, didn't read it carefully enough.

Played seniors open last week and usual indiscretions.
No one else named their ball before tee off.
I hit one into the long grass on 11 lhip hurting and after a brief look I declared it lost and walked on.Other 2 kept looking and shouted out they had found it.I explained 3 times it was a lost ball but they kept asking me to play it.Partner hit his in a ditch on same hole dog leg left and proceeded to go back on a line that suited his next shot(not in line with the flag).Final hole player puts one into the edge of a pond yellow stakes left side finds it in the hazard no marking of entry and mutters something about 2 clubs lengths drops back a bit and out to the side giving him a nice view down the fairway.I had words at that point but might as well have been talking to the wall.these guys have been playing 30 years or more former captain.This is an open with £1k price fund incredible.
Final point they all seem to leave the flag in for putts of any length and at least twice the ball was bounced out just lazy it seems.

You don't have to name or declare your ball, agree it's good practice but you don't have to.

super_realist wrote:You don't have to name or declare your ball, agree it's good practice but you don't have to.

Super's right. You don't have to name it, as long as you can identify it it's fine. It can help stop potential issues down the line but it's not a requirement.

You can't declare a ball lost. It becomes lost after 3 minutes of looking for it if it remains unfound. You can agree with everyone (ahh, f**k it, let's crack on boys") to proceed without spending 3 minutes, but if they continue to look and find it before the 3 mins is up, it remains the ball in play.

We had a league match a few years ago in foursomes where mate tee'd off on par 3, put it in cabbage so his partner hit a provisional and canned it for a 3 (off the tee). Cue the opposition pair spending 4mins 45 (pre rules change) to find the original ball, which they did and so that was the ball in play.

Sounds like it wasn't a fun day though Dyna

The first ball becomes "lost" if you play a provisional without declaring it a provisional.

Dyna

For christ sake you can't declare a ball lost. As super says the only way to take it out of play is hitting another ball without declaring it a provisional.

super_realist wrote:The first ball becomes "lost" if you play a provisional without declaring it a provisional.

I don't think you have to specifically declare it as a 'provisional'. Other words making it obvious it's just that suffice. Safer to say 'provisional' though!

Navy

You actually have to say "provisional". Dumb but true.

McLaren wrote:Navy

You actually have to say "provisional". Dumb but true.

Not true (any more). You have to be clear that it is a provisional but you don't have to use the word provisional.

I think the R&A website says something like

OK - "I'm going to play another just in case"

Not OK - "I'm going to play another"

Roller_Coaster wrote:
You don't HAVE to use the word provisional. But it is clearest way of announcing it.

18.3b/2


Statements That “Clearly Indicate” That a Provisional Ball Is Being Played


When playing a provisional ball, it is best if the player uses the word "provisional" in his or her announcement. However, other statements that make it clear that the player's intent is to play a provisional ball are acceptable.

Examples of announcements that clearly indicate the player is playing a provisional ball include:
•"I'm playing a ball under Rule 18.3".
•"I'm going to play another just in case".

Examples of announcements that do not clearly indicate the player is playing a provisional ball and mean that the player would be putting a ball into play under stroke and distance include:
•"I'm going to re-load".
•"I'm going to play another".

Thought I'd posted on this in this thread not long ago...

Roller_Coaster wrote:

McLaren wrote:Navy

You actually have to say "provisional". Dumb but true.

Not true (any more). You have to be clear that it is a provisional but you don't have to use the word provisional.

I think the R&A website says something like

OK - "I'm going to play another just in case"

Not OK - "I'm going to play another"

Sorry Mac - I think I should have included a and "for christ sake" [sic] like you did to Dyna...

Roller_Coaster wrote:

McLaren wrote:Navy

You actually have to say "provisional". Dumb but true.

Not true (any more). You have to be clear that it is a provisional but you don't have to use the word provisional.

I think the R&A website says something like

OK - "I'm going to play another just in case"

Not OK - "I'm going to play another"

Indeed. Alas, Mac .

Hell dogs are out.We had spent a bit of time looking for my ball but I wasn't watching the clock to be fair.Ill have to swat up on that .
the ball ID declaration thing is just good practice particularly if someone plays a provisional.
I once played a comp where everyone got a sleeve of ultra 1 from the sponsor before the off -it was chaos.
I cannot see me playing again without another surgery sadly.

dynamark wrote:Hell dogs are out.We had spent a bit of time looking for my ball but I wasn't watching the clock to be fair.Ill have to swat up on that .
the ball ID declaration thing is just good practice particularly if someone plays a provisional.
I once played a comp where everyone got a sleeve of ultra 1 from the sponsor before the off -it was chaos.
I cannot see me playing again without another surgery sadly.

Sorry to hear that Dyna. I’ve not played other than a few holes since the start of June due to a tendon injury in my left leg which the physio has told me will just take time to heal. I did manage to play a recent awayday with my club because they had buggies (our course doesn’t have them) and I’m going with a group of ladies to Arran at the end of the month where again I have a buggy booked. The annoying thing is the injury doesn’t affect my swing, it’s just the walking I can’t do

Hi LP .I can walk,sit,drive reasonably well but after a few holes there is something about the weight transfer to the backswing that hits a very very painful spot ,You know its coming and not a lot you can do about it .Chipping and putting fine but any full shot is played on one leg!
Got to make a decision in next few weeks.Not like having a tooth out though
Back to the rules I hadn't played a provisional so I just walked on (better ball comp)

dynamark wrote:Hi LP .I can walk,sit,drive  reasonably well but after a few holes there is something about the weight transfer to the backswing that hits a very very  painful spot ,You know its coming and not a lot you can do about it .Chipping and putting fine but any full shot is played on one leg!
Got to make a decision in next few weeks.Not like having a tooth out though
Back to the rules I hadn't played a provisional so I just walked on (better ball comp)

Just back from another physio session and she finally confirmed what I suspected all along - a slight tear in the tendon, but I can’t for the life of me remember doing it! Still, it’s getting better and nowhere near as pa8nful to walk on