England World Cup Warm Ups

First topic message reminder :

Don't expect the snazzy pics produced on better match threads!

England Wales 11th August
Wales England 17th August
England Ireland 24th August
England Italy 6th September.

Squad for the world cup is due 2nd September so theres a chance the 1st 3 could be used for selection purposes and likely to see some combos not considered 1st choice.

BBC saving me typing:

England: Daly; McConnochie, Slade, Francis, Watson; Ford, Heinz; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Ewels, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Singleton, Marler, Williams, Kruis, Ludlam, Youngs, Marchant, Cokanasiga.

Wales: L Williams; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owens, Francis, Beard, Jones, Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Dee, Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, T Williams, Biggar, Watkin.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watched the game again yesterday as after a weekend full of sport they forgot to put any on! Heinz s first kick was the Tuilagi tackle so just about judged to perfection. I wasnt basing it purely o  this game though but the previous 2. On form heinz is streets ahead at the moment but hopefully youngs gets back to somewhere approaching decent. Cant agree he was anything more than a 5 this weekend with an extremely comfy ride.
Maybe I was focusing on youngs.more as everyone else was superb. When he just threw the ball into a retreating irish player to try and get a pen not realising the rules and allowing a counter attack when  the match was still in the balance (or ar least not completely done had me with my head in my hands. Good job Owens let's forward passes go when a little close as well.

The attempt at winning the penalty was out of desperation. He got a static offload with no support. Had Manu's knee touched the ground before releasing the ball Youngs would have had his penalty. There was a few times that England tried to force the pace a little too much Vs Ireland, particularly in the first half. By the second half Ireland were on the ropes and it was easy to set the pace at what we liked and run through them. I think that was one of the reasons Eddie says it was only an 80% performance we won't get away with those errors against RWC ready teams.

Consistency is the key, can England repeat the level of intensity in all their up coming games? The last few years has shown some great performances followed by not good at all, some England Race into an early lead then letting the opposition back in.

England need to be able to play last saturdays level every game to succeed at this RWC.

As before you need to learn lessons. Dont get caught up in on field battles as happened in the 6ns with wales. Big tick from the last 2 games as jones and co friends few times to get the team riled. Were also not coming from season with the lions. The team.dont seem fatigued. As I've said before its sport so slip ups can happen but looks good prep from.jones and coaches so far.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Negated the drive well. Not sure youd get away with it with other refs but its hopefully focused a few minds.

England got away with a lot at Twickenham, especially at the breakdown, it's all swings and roundabouts. Anyway, it was not all about negating the maul, Wales put a lot more air on the ball, and they backed their ability to retrieve the high balls, thus it took out the ability of the big strong English players to put big carries, and big hits in, they tired the big boys out by turning them and forcing them to run around more.

Wales also targeted the big ball carriers more by doubling up on them. A job very well done if you ask me.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Negated the drive well. Not sure youd get away with it with other refs but its hopefully focused a few minds.

England got away with a lot at Twickenham, especially at the breakdown, it's all swings and roundabouts. Anyway, it was not all about negating the maul, Wales put a lot more air on the ball, and they backed their ability to retrieve the high balls, thus it took out the ability of the big strong English players to put big carries, and big hits in, they tired the big boys out by turning them and forcing them to run around more.

Wales also targeted the big ball carriers more by doubling up on them. A job very well done if you ask me.

The welsh line out was a massive factor, e held our own and won a few off them. And that was with England having four different jumpers.

Last week Ireland’s lineout was appalling last Saturday, they had no foothold and lost dangerous ball to the opposition

Dont think they did though. But you're right swings and roundabouts. What one ref will see as fine another wont. Owen's for instance is pretty relaxed on what he considers close we saw 2 pretty obvious forward passes waved through and people pretty obviously off their feet at the breakdown. You do need to quickly assess or at least spend a good deal researching your refs.
I partially agree on the ball carriers. We had 6 phases at most I think I read: for me dont pick a lock and 6.5 in our back row with a slow 8.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Dont think they did though. But you're right swings and roundabouts. What one ref will see as fine another wont. Owen's for instance is pretty relaxed on what he considers close we saw 2 pretty obvious forward passes waved through and people pretty obviously off their feet at the breakdown. You do need to quickly assess or at least spend a good deal researching your refs.
I partially agree on the ball carriers. We had 6 phases at most I think I read: for me dont pick a lock and 6.5 in our back row with a slow 8.

Underhill and Curry were injured for the Cardiff match. England need a back up back row as both their star flankers are very injury prone.

And if both our premier 7s are put we'll struggle. With them and we're going to be very good.

Do we think the Curry / Underhill pairing is now ahead of Wilson in Eddie's thoughts? It did look very impressive on Saturday

BamBam wrote:Do we think the Curry / Underhill pairing is now ahead of Wilson in Eddie's thoughts? It did look very impressive on Saturday

I think Wilson will be on the bench in the big games because he covers the whole back row.

Realistically you only have to use your 'gun' team 5 times to win the cup.

Also 3 of our locks can cover the flanks at a push even the new lad Singleton as well.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

BamBam wrote:Do we think the Curry / Underhill pairing is now ahead of Wilson in Eddie's thoughts? It did look very impressive on Saturday

I think Wilson will be on the bench in the big games because he covers the whole back row.

Realistically you only have to use your 'gun' team 5 times to win the cup.

Also 3 of our locks can cover the flanks at a push even the new lad Singleton as well.

I thought that using locks in the back row was a weakness that you perceived let England down in Cardiff a week ago?

No 7&1/2 wrote: for me dont pick a lock and 6.5 in our back row with a slow 8.

I'm not big trev so quite harsh to try to use my thoughts against him. I'd say that for cover it's fine to have lawes as you literally cannot cover every position with a specialist however it's not ideal.

I wouldn't pick a lock at 6 in the big games, but I don't want to see Curry / Underhill get flogged against Tonga / USA in the early pool games either

In those I don't think there would be a problem with Lawes starting at 6

Wilson is a true blindside but covers the other two back row positions in an emergency

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not big trev so quite harsh to try to use my thoughts against him. I'd say that for cover it's fine to have lawes as you literally cannot cover every position with a specialist however it's not ideal.

I’m not using anyone’s thoughts against anyone else, I am pointing out two opinions in contradiction.

What would you guys think your forward bench should be outside of front row replacements?

Lawes (lock and blindside Cover)

Wilson (backrow cover)

You're holding trev to my thoughts. And to be fair applying my thoughts on a starting choice flankers to cover.
Personally for the choices we have in the squad yes lawes and wilson.

Yeah, Lawes and Wilson looks right to me, with Launchbury and Ludlam as the two outside the matchday squad. You've got Wilson covering 6 and 8 and 7 at a push.

One thing I don't like is if Curry and Underhill both come off and you have Lawes, Wilson, Vunipola in the back row, as we closed with against Ireland. I don't think there's enough pace in that back row and would be worried about that combination finishing games, especially at the sharp end of the tournament. Lawes, 7, Wilson or Lawes in the second row and Wilson in the back row would be fine.

BamBam wrote:I wouldn't pick a lock at 6 in the big games, but I don't want to see Curry / Underhill get flogged against Tonga / USA in the early pool games either

In those I don't think there would be a problem with Lawes starting at 6

Wilson is a true blindside but covers the other two back row positions in an emergency

Exactly my point.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not big trev so quite harsh to try to use my thoughts against him. I'd say that for cover it's fine to have lawes as you literally cannot cover every position with a specialist however it's not ideal.

Agreed.

Apparently Wigglesworth is going to be at the tournament as a coach with Canada, imagine the fume if he's brought in as an emergency replacement

BamBam wrote:Apparently Wigglesworth is going to be at the tournament as a coach with Canada, imagine the fume if he's brought in as an emergency replacement

Canada have recruited interestingly on the coaching front. Kingsley Jones has called on former players Boris Stankovitch and now Wigglesworth to help tune up his squad. Boris is the mastermind between the Tigers rejuvenated scrum and Wigglesworth is one of the most tactically astute scrum halves going. Looks like they've got their eye on being very tough to breakdown.

Well, Wigglesworth will definitely have an advantage over Care or Spencer in that he'll be in the correct time zone, but then again he won't be playing regularly.

Didn't realise we had a weekend off this week, I'd hope that the likes of Slade / Nowell / McConnochie would be fully ready to go for Italy

Has there been any more news on Mako?

BamBam wrote:Didn't realise we had a weekend off this week, I'd hope that the likes of Slade / Nowell / McConnochie would be fully ready to go for Italy

Has there been any more news on Mako?

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/what-mako-vunipola-has-told-brother-billy-about-the-injury-that-forced-him-off-at-twickenham/

This is the last I heard. Not really news, not enough detail. Can speculate off the back of that that (a) Mako is as he says fine or (b) Billy's concern indicates that he's not okay. Depends how optimistic you're feeling on any given day.

Chris Jones of the BBC thinks we'll hear today.

Nowell touch and go according to Baxter. Bring in spencer mr jones. Do it now.

Nowell's constantly touch and go. His entire career seems to have been blighted by injuries.

Mako should be fine. Ben Moon added as cover.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/mako-vunipola-injury-update

Good news, obviously. I think Moon being called up is the clincher. He's an out-and-out loosehead so Marler can continue training both sides. If he had called up Williams (who was closer to the final squad), then Marler would only be able to prop on the loosehead side in camp. So the current plan is still two looseheads, two tightheads and Marler.

I'd keep Mako out of the Italy game. 10 days is going to be touch and go - 10 days from now or 10 days from the Ireland game? Either way, he won't get much training in. He's good enough to make the squad without it and important enough not to be risked. He's got about a month before the first games against Tonga and USA, and he can get some minutes there and build his way into the tournament. Maybe a start against France and a half-time substitution, then a start against Argentina and a 50-55 minute spell? Being a prop he could play 40 minutes then return if his replacement got injured.

But good news that he's back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nowell touch and go according to Baxter. Bring in spencer mr jones. Do it now.

If Nowell is injured I think it's a good chance to add cover elsewhere rather than a specialist back three player. I'd still rather have an extra back row over a third scrum half. Maybe Dombrandt? I just feel it allows us to use our resources better over those first two games.

Eddie will have to make a decision soon, and if he takes Nowell out before the squad is submitted then he will be able to call Nowell up later if there is an injury.

The other option would be to just take Nowell anyway and know if he's not fit for Tonga or USA he'll be fit for France. My worry with that is he won't be match fit and isn't an absolute shoo-in (like Mako), so when do you bring him back in? I'd say that May, Watson and Daly will start with Cokanasiga on the bench, although Joe might force his way into the starting line-up. I can't see where Nowell fits in, unless he really is the 6th back row in the squad!

robbo277 wrote:Good news, obviously. I think Moon being called up is the clincher. He's an out-and-out loosehead so Marler can continue training both sides. If he had called up Williams (who was closer to the final squad), then Marler would only be able to prop on the loosehead side in camp. So the current plan is still two looseheads, two tightheads and Marler.

I'd keep Mako out of the Italy game. 10 days is going to be touch and go - 10 days from now or 10 days from the Ireland game? Either way, he won't get much training in. He's good enough to make the squad without it and important enough not to be risked. He's got about a month before the first games against Tonga and USA, and he can get some minutes there and build his way into the tournament. Maybe a start against France and a half-time substitution, then a start against Argentina and a 50-55 minute spell? Being a prop he could play 40 minutes then return if his replacement got injured.

But good news that he's back.

BBC reporting Mako set to miss Italy game. Makes total sense get him right for the big games.

robbo277 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nowell touch and go according to Baxter. Bring in spencer mr jones. Do it now.

If Nowell is injured I think it's a good chance to add cover elsewhere rather than a specialist back three player. I'd still rather have an extra back row over a third scrum half. Maybe Dombrandt? I just feel it allows us to use our resources better over those first two games.

Eddie will have to make a decision soon, and if he takes Nowell out before the squad is submitted then he will be able to call Nowell up later if there is an injury.

The other option would be to just take Nowell anyway and know if he's not fit for Tonga or USA he'll be fit for France. My worry with that is he won't be match fit and isn't an absolute shoo-in (like Mako), so when do you bring him back in? I'd say that May, Watson and Daly will start with Cokanasiga on the bench, although Joe might force his way into the starting line-up. I can't see where Nowell fits in, unless he really is the 6th back row in the squad!

I'd rather have a single proper fullback than an extra scrum half.

I've become beshocked.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've become beshocked.

??????

Spencer, Goode in; Farrell out?


Deity that is Youngs. Why is Ludlum there ahead of Rhodes/Earl/Wray. Underhill and Curry unproven. We lost to Wales because of May?

He did hate Farrell for not signing that autograph! I'm not quite there yet.

Joking aside I would rate Earl up there with Ludlam

Theres a fair few like that where personally I'd favour an alternative saracens choice tomkins over Marchant for me but I'm still stable enough to realise it's not a travesty.
Sounds like it's good news for mako in comparison to what it could be.

BBC article also reporting that Charlie Ewels, Matt Kvesic and Joe Marchant will also travel to Treviso. Unsure whether they will be bag holders or full on injury cover. I guess it just gives them a few more options if a front liner needs to sit out a session or do a reduced workload.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Joking aside I would rate Earl up there with Ludlam

Earl is a terrific player. He had a similar season to Ludlam but to be fair to the Saints youngster he didn't half take his chance when it came!

I'm just happy to see England picking dynamic young players such as Curry, Underhill, Ludlam, Genge, Cokanasiga and McConnochie.

The way Curry, Underhill and now Ludlam as well look to dominate in defence, particularly against forward carriers off 9, is something England have lacked for years.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've become beshocked.

??????

Spencer, Goode in; Farrell out?


Deity that is Youngs. Why is Ludlum there ahead of Rhodes/Earl/Wray. Underhill and Curry unproven. We lost to Wales because of May?

Yes, dear old beshocked, I wonder what mystical world he ended up in, he certainly wasn't cut out for this one.

You don't think he has migrated West do you?

Ludlam works very well with Lawes in the tackle they have the two man hit nigh on perfect, Lawes goes chest high from one side Ludlam waist high from the other and they tend to time it perfectly. that 225 kg hitting you you and lifting as they drive you backwards.

robbo277 wrote:BBC article also reporting that Charlie Ewels, Matt Kvesic and Joe Marchant will also travel to Treviso. Unsure whether they will be bag holders or full on injury cover. I guess it just gives them a few more options if a front liner needs to sit out a session or do a reduced workload.

With the strength of the established four locks this is a bit of a pedantic point but I'd personally prefer Isiekwe to Ewels. Ewels is solid but I think Isiekwe has the physicality better suited to test rugby and a much higher ceiling in terms of room for improvement.

I'm glad that Kvesic is around the reserves though. He had a terrific season with Exeter and deserves to back in competition for a squad place.

king_carlos wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Joking aside I would rate Earl up there with Ludlam

Earl is a terrific player. He had a similar season to Ludlam but to be fair to the Saints youngster he didn't half take his chance when it came!

I'm just happy to see England picking dynamic young players such as Curry, Underhill, Ludlam, Genge, Cokanasiga and McConnochie.

The way Curry, Underhill and now Ludlam as well look to dominate in defence, particularly against forward carriers off 9, is something England have lacked for years.

Yes agree with all of that.

I think there was a plan to involve Itoje more centrally in defence which has improved under Mitchell.
What the Ireland game also proved was the attacking prowess of our first team even against a below par Irish side.

Haskell was speaking on the House of Rugby about his recent vist to the camp. He thought Manu Tuilagi looked in the best shape he can remember, and that the team seemed to be preparing well.

He contrasted this with his experience in 2011 and 2015. 2011, he says they were beasted from the start, which didn't seem to have much purpose, and undemined some of the foundation established by improved results from the summer of 2010. In 2015, he reiterated that the team trained for high ball-in-play time which never materialized at the tournament.

Ultimately, we'll see from the results in Japan whether Haskell is right about preparation but it does sound as if everyone believes they are on the right track.